Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on May 20, 2011 17:38:41 GMT -5
Let me start by saying I'm biased from the get go. I never finished a degree, and have no plans to go back and do so now. My stay at home spouse has a BA though. OK, that's out of the way, let's get to the controversial part. So president Obama has set a goal of increasing our college graduation rate to 60% in just ten years. College is important, college grads make more, yadda, yadda, yadda. We've all heard the reasons why we should be pushing every single young person in the country into debt at the very beginning of their adult lives. Or, sacrificing our retirement to pay for an education for them so they can stay out of debt and instead take care of us when we retire broke. Have you seen the new study out of Harvard about college and jobs though? It found that only one third of future jobs will require a degree. Some excerpts; Students are not ready to take on their chosen career paths when they graduate from college, a Harvard study finds. Published on Wednesday, the two-year study finds that the one-size-fits-all education system is leaving students either jobless or unprepared for a job. However, the amount of jobs that require post-secondary education have decreased, and only one third of future jobs are expected to require a bachelor’s degree or higher. www.eduinreview.com/blog/2011/02/harvard-study-students-are-unprepared-for-job-market/Now I don't have no fancy math degree, but I'm pretty sure if 60% of kids get a degree, but only 33% of future jobs need a degree, then about half of future college grads are going to have a hard time paying back their loans. Right? Or even finding work potentially. They might be seen as overqualified for two thirds of the jobs, but don't have the right degree, alma mater, or a competitive enough GPA for the other third.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on May 20, 2011 17:43:25 GMT -5
You know what's sad? I just saw an ad for an 11 dollar an hour receptionist and they want her to have a BA.
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busymom
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Post by busymom on May 20, 2011 17:44:10 GMT -5
While I agree that having a degree is over-rated (yes, I've got one), the last couple places I've worked at REQUIRED B.A.'s to be "qualified" for any supervisory position (and most of those spots really don't require "higher learning", just common sense). If you can swing it, I'd tell my kids to try for a degree just so not having one wouldn't prevent them from getting a higher salary. Sadly, where I work now it seems you need an M.A., (or friends in the company) to move up. Too many folks with B.A.'s in this area, I guess. ![:o](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/shocked.png)
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on May 20, 2011 17:46:20 GMT -5
Before anyone asks the rule with my own kids is that they can be anything they want to be when they grow and they can study whatever they want, as long as they graduate with at least a BS from Stanford.
Oh, and as far as they know we won't be giving them a dime for college, but we'll probably make enough that they won't get much aid either, so they should really focus on keeping their grades and/or athletic abilities top notch in order to land a scholarship.
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Post by Savoir Faire-Demogague in NJ on May 20, 2011 17:48:27 GMT -5
Firstly, your last statement about the number of jobs requiring a college education is incorrect. According to a recent Gartner Group report, the biggest job segment for growth in the future is for knowledge workers.
As far as having student loan debt, a student can spend the first two years in community college, then transfer to their state university system. They can also get into the job market, in any capacity, and hopefully with a firm that has tuition reimbursement, and attend school part time. It will take an additional year, depending on credits taken and if you go to summer school.
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chiver78
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Post by chiver78 on May 20, 2011 17:50:39 GMT -5
zib, that's ridiculous! there's definitely a lot to be said for trades training. someone else has said it a few times recently on other threads, can't remember who just now. as a society, we need to recognize that some kids will not do well in college. that's not a bad thing, it just means that their talents lie elsewhere - like trades. we will always need skilled tradesmen and women, especially if we continue to look down our noses at those professions for our own kids. ![](http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff155/JiminiChristmas/smileys/50_50.gif) there was a voc/tech HS in my district, that I wasn't inclined to attend, but more so because the kids that went there were the less-desirables (in my class, anyway). fast forward to my current employer - one of the mechanical engineers in my dept (HVAC concentration) actually went through the HVAC courses at his local voc/tech before pursuing a mechanical engineering degree. I don't know what his situation was in choosing that school, but I wish I'd had his foresight - I could have taken an electrical curriculum on my way to working in automation. sidebar aside, you do not need a little piece of paper to show that you can learn. college is not right for everyone.
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chiver78
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Post by chiver78 on May 20, 2011 17:51:37 GMT -5
Before anyone asks the rule with my own kids is that they can be anything they want to be when they grow and they can study whatever they want, as long as they graduate with at least a BS from Stanford. Oh, and as far as they know we won't be giving them a dime for college, but we'll probably make enough that they won't get much aid either, so they should really focus on keeping their grades and/or athletic abilities top notch in order to land a scholarship. ![](http://boards.msn.com/Themes/default/emoticons/tongue_smile.gif)
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swamp
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Post by swamp on May 20, 2011 17:51:54 GMT -5
I went to one of those fancy schmancy private liberal arts colleges and didn't owe any money when I graduated. Expensive private schools have lots of money to give away for scholarships.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 20, 2011 17:52:05 GMT -5
College has never been "career tech." You were never supposed to graduate from college "trained" to do something unless maybe you were a nurse or teacher. (We are talking about undergraduate degrees.) What you were expected to demonstrate was that you had a wide range of skills and the ability to learn and adapt. Please don't criticize that job description too much. It isn't precise, but a general idea of what a college degree was supposed to offer.
Example: my ex-DH was a math major with a business minor. He graduated in 1972, which was before computer programming was a degree. But by 1973 the corporation he worked for was into programming (AT&T). He was hired to program (they taught him), but so were philosophy and other majors. The idea was that if you knew how to reason and think, you could program. He actually ended up as a CPA but without having the accounting classes. He was fortunate that AT&T operated in GA where they had less strenous education requirements (experience plus pass the tests). We used to joke he had to meet you at the state line since we lived in Alabama.
Now "some" college is expected for almost every decent entry job out there. I think that is the new "high school diploma." Remember that the majority of people have "some college." Most people who never even attempt it are people who barely made it out of high school. So it has become a marker of some sort.
It isn't about "need" for companies in the sense that a job description requires a college degree or even "some college." But it has become a weeding device. If they simply postt "high school diploma," they couldn't handle the response.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on May 20, 2011 17:52:54 GMT -5
Firstly, your last statement about the number of jobs requiring a college education is incorrect. According to a recent Gartner Group report, the biggest job segment for growth in the future is for knowledge workers. It wasn't my statement, that was from a study done at Harvard. Keep in mind that right now only 30% of adults have a degree, they aren't all in the labor market, and up to a third of them work in jobs that don't require a degree. It's possible for knowledge jobs requiring a degree to grow faster than other segments of the labor market, but still wind up with only 33% of future jobs requiring a degree.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on May 20, 2011 18:00:10 GMT -5
You were never supposed to graduate from college "trained" to do something unless maybe you were a nurse or teacher. (We are talking about undergraduate degrees.) What you were expected to demonstrate was that you had a wide range of skills and the ability to learn and adapt. Please don't criticize that job description too much. It isn't precise, but a general idea of what a college degree was supposed to offer. I hear you loud and clear, but getting away from that was actually one of the recomendations in the study. Pathways to Prosperity Project, at the Harvard University Graduate School of Education, encourages U.S. schools to become more like Europe’s. European students can expect their educational experience to focus on occupational training, rather than general education studies. Being well rounded sounds good and all, but well rounded 22 year olds with student loans also need to be qualified for and know how to land jobs, or they can't pay back the loans.
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Post by Savoir Faire-Demogague in NJ on May 20, 2011 18:03:27 GMT -5
It wasn't my statement, that was from a study done at Harvard.
Oh, sorry... just pointing it out....
Keep in mind that right now only 30% of adults have a degree, they aren't all in the labor market, and up to a third of them work in jobs that don't require a degree. It's possible for knowledge jobs requiring a degree to grow faster than other segments of the labor market, but still wind up with only 33% of future jobs requiring a degree.
I have not really seen data on the number of adults with college degrees. Personal experience over the last 35+ years would say that 80 to 90% do, but it would be a heavily biased sample. Nearly every chick I've dated since 1989 has a college degree and even graduate degrees. Keep in mind, during the recent recession and unemployment situation, those with college educations were hardly affected.
Being educated gives one more options.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 20, 2011 18:03:37 GMT -5
There is something in between a 4 year degree and straight from high school to employment - people with SOME college. I think degrees are overrated in most cases, but I have no doubt that some college is very important for most position.
*disclaimer - I have no degree, but "some" college..
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Post by Savoir Faire-Demogague in NJ on May 20, 2011 18:04:33 GMT -5
Being well rounded sounds good and all, but well rounded 22 year olds with student loans also need to be qualified for and know how to land jobs, or they can't pay back the loans.
There is no reason why a 22 year old has to be buried in debt, if they follow my suggestions above.
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Opti
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Post by Opti on May 20, 2011 18:06:05 GMT -5
You know what's sad? I just saw an ad for an 11 dollar an hour receptionist and they want her to have a BA. I've seen a fair amount of this and I live in a HCOL area. Paralegal salaries have dropped too and several ads required a fair amount of experience that paid $12/hr and a little better. In this applicant rich enviroment employers ask for more than they need because many times they can get it.
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Post by debtheaven on May 20, 2011 18:09:15 GMT -5
My DD is not academic. My three sons are, very much so. One is done with his Masters, the other is halfway done, it seems like DS3 will get one too when the time comes.
DD hated school. She is graduating from a vocational HS this year and initially wanted to go to a vocational college for a two-year degree. We STRONGLY encouraged her to go to another vocational college for three years to get a BA rather than two years for an Associate's Degree (college is three years here), all in her chosen field (hospitality management).
We left the decision up to her, but we definitely feel that going for an Associate's Degree rather than a BA would limit her future prospects. Especially since it's a very international industry, and she is bilingual. (There were other issues too: the two-year AA requires 16 mo of coursework over two years, with one two-month internship. The BA requires 15 months of coursework over three years, with three four-month internships. It seemed like a no-brainer to us.) The BA is much more expensive, but that's our problem, not hers.
DH, I know you're doing extremely well without a degree but I'm not sure anybody just starting out now could do the same, especially in the current economic climate. Plus, you were in the military, right? So if I'm not mistaken, it's not like you just landed that great job as soon as you were done with school.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on May 20, 2011 18:15:14 GMT -5
DH, I know you're doing extremely well without a degree but I'm not sure anybody just starting out could do the same, especially in the current economic climate. First, we do alright not extremely well. You can start describing it that way once I own a yacht. ![:P](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/tongue.png) Second, the current economic climate is tough on everyone, even college grads. Those grads who were already established have done better than most, but the ones just starting out, which is the people you mentioned in your post, are having a devil of time getting their foot in the door too.
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Post by debtheaven on May 20, 2011 18:18:03 GMT -5
OK, so let's say you're doing just OK since you don't (yet?) own the yacht LOL. I edited my post after you posted. The other thing is, if I'm not mistaken, you got that job after you left the military, rather than just out of school. I'm sure that counts for plenty too. ![:)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/smiley.png)
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Post by debtheaven on May 20, 2011 18:20:59 GMT -5
Second, the current economic climate is tough on everyone, even college grads.
Exactly. So I'm not sure how people with little or no education who are just starting out are faring much better, unless they are in the trades. It may be different in the US, but I don't know many people here who are aspiring to become plumbers, electricians, etc. I do know one kid who is training for HVAC and I think that is smart of him, but I think he's in the minority here, and probably even more so in the US.
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Post by Deleted on May 20, 2011 18:22:18 GMT -5
I'm against blindly pushing people into college, but I think that too many employers are demanding degrees for jobs where a healthy work ethic, reasonable native intelligence and a willingness to learn are all that's necessary. They demand degrees because they can, not because they're needed. My son settles auto claims for an insurance company. Thank heaven he enjoys the job and they treat him well, but does he need a Math degree to do that? Heck, no.
I'd hate to see more people buy into the myth that a college degree- any college degree- will guarantee you a better job than if you didn't have one. They come out with a lot of debts and they end up even more disillusioned with the system.
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Post by debtheaven on May 20, 2011 18:24:23 GMT -5
Athena I agree but from spending time here, it seems more and more that you need that degree just to get your foot in the door, or have your resumé / CV up for consideration.
I think it's just an easy way for employers to pare down their overwhelming pile of applications. It may not be right, or necessary, but for people who are just entering the work force, college now seems to be the equivalent of yesteryear's HS diploma.
Edited to change the last sentence.
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sil
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Post by sil on May 20, 2011 18:28:19 GMT -5
So president Obama has set a goal of increasing our college graduation rate to 60% in just ten years. College is important, college grads make more.... ************************************************************************************** If 60% of Americans go to college to make an above average salary, at least 10% will be disappointed.
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Opti
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Post by Opti on May 20, 2011 18:29:08 GMT -5
"So president Obama has set a goal of increasing our college graduation rate to 60% in just ten years. College is important, college grads make more, yadda, yadda, yadda."
I think this is a very bad idea unless we start decreasing the H1B Visa holders that are taking jobs that Americans are qualified for. I know lots of degree holders that don't have jobs or have taken positions paying much less. I saw one guy in the grocery store telling me how he's down to what he made 20 years ago. Maybe SF's college graduate friends and acquaintances are better connected than those I know in central NJ and from college.
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stats45
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Post by stats45 on May 20, 2011 18:35:12 GMT -5
The Harvard study is correct.
If you look at the figures from the Bureau of Labor Statistics, they back up the Harvard study. The large majority of job openings in the next couple decades will be in jobs that do not require a 4 year college degree. The majority of these won't even require what the BLS designates as long periods of on the job training.
The problem here is a difference between the rate of growth and absolute growth. Many of the fastest growing professions are those that require a college degree. So if we have 50k new super-awesome college jobs in field X and we expect to need 100K of the same in 10 years, there will be a 100% increase in this job that requires a college degree over the next decade. This might be one of the largest growing fields, but it doesn't mean that there will be radically more jobs for people with a college degree. The largest growing professions as measured by actual jobs added to the economy, however, will be in careers that do not require a degree.
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Post by Deleted on May 20, 2011 18:52:32 GMT -5
The big city next door to me doesn't even graduate 60% of it's high schoolers. ![](http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff155/JiminiChristmas/smileys/1.gif)
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 20, 2011 18:54:36 GMT -5
Dark - have you hit any sort of ceiling without a degree? DH worked in IT and went back to college when he realized he wasn't going to get promoted without a degree, after getting passed over twice for the same job. When his boss sorted through something like 800 resumes for a systems admin position he just tossed all the ones without a degree.
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Loopdilou
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Post by Loopdilou on May 20, 2011 18:56:50 GMT -5
Actually, one of the highest current unemployment rates is among people who got their degree right before/since the crash.
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stats45
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Post by stats45 on May 20, 2011 18:57:01 GMT -5
The other thing you see when you look at future job projections and college degrees is how much degree choice will matter. Some college majors are well-placed for growth and others are not. As more students enter college, there has been a large increase in degrees awarded in majors that do not have direct links to the job market.
In order to increase degree completion to 60%, college enrollment would have to be near universal among 18-25 year olds. This would push a large amount of unqualified students in college and probably further dilute the value of a college degree. Some occupations might start expecting a college degree, but it is unlikely that they would pay more because these students would be unlikely to create large productivity gains.
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stats45
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Post by stats45 on May 20, 2011 19:00:24 GMT -5
Dark, the best argument for you personally to get a degree wouldn't be that you would learn a lot in college compared to what you know from your experience, but that you would probably face a very difficult job market if you lost your job because of the practices anne81 described.
The other concern might be job or location lock. There could be some restrictions to further choices if it is hard to move because of hiring practices.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 20, 2011 19:17:55 GMT -5
The other thing you see when you look at future job projections and college degrees is how much degree choice will matter. Some college majors are well-placed for growth and others are not. southernsusana told how here DH got a job with a Math degree even though it wasn't an area where he would directly use it; a guy in our church who had a long, successful career in the commercial real estate area of banking majored in early English Lit. (think Chaucer and Beowulf) at the U. of Toronto. A bank hired and trained him. He's in his 50s. If he graduated now he'd be offered commission-only jobs selling life insurance and annuities. I wish employers would stop being so pigheaded about the degree and look at the person, but that takes too much work.
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