Firebird
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Post by Firebird on May 23, 2011 12:40:47 GMT -5
Really? A piece of paper? If it is only a piece of paper then why did you get it?
I don't know if this was a sincere or rhetorical question, but I'll answer it anyway...
My reasons for getting a degree were very complicated. I dropped out at the end of my sophomore year as an honor student in good standing with a partial academic scholarship because I have never been so miserable in my life. The plan was to take a semester off and regroup, try to get myself together, etc.
I ended up getting a great job in NYC that I liked very much. Things were going really well. And I did get into the mentality of "college is for losers" for awhile. To be honest, my life in college sucked so bad that I got really negative toward the institution in general for awhile, particularly when I started out-earning my friends with college degrees.
Eventually, I reached a point where I'd done all I could do at my job, I didn't have any special career plan in mind, and I had calmed down a little about college. I decided to go back and finish my degree as quickly as humanly possible, because I knew that in my particular situation, with my background and skills, a business degree made sense and would most likely enhance my earning power.
Outside the situation that was making me so miserable, I was able to make a calm and thoughtful decision - and a year and a half later, I still think it was the right one. I'm making about $20-27k more than I made in New York, and even though this job isn't right for me long-term there's no question that it is helping me get established and financially secure. I took a financial hit by going back to an out-of-state school and finishing in a single year, but to me it was worth it (college sucked almost as badly the second time as it did the first - and the reasons for THAT are even more complicated).
Leaving college and returning were two of the best decisions I ever made for myself. They were both right for me at the time, and I wouldn't change them for anything.
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midjd
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Post by midjd on May 23, 2011 12:43:06 GMT -5
IIRC, my high school disbursed about $100K in scholarships to our class of 250. At the time, one year at the fairly cheap state college ran about $15K for tuition + room and board. Needless to say, very few of us managed to fund our educations solely through scholarships (and yes, I'm aware that the scholarships administered through high schools aren't the only ones).
On the other hand, I got about $6K in scholarships during my last year of college. Jackpot! ;D
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on May 23, 2011 12:45:13 GMT -5
FWIW, I still consider it an expensive piece of paper. For me, it was a good purchase - mostly because of the career opportunities that came with it.
But with the exception of a small part during my last semester, the education didn't enrich me at all. It didn't teach me much of anything that I still find useful. Mostly, college taught me how to survive really, really shitty times. Part of that was personal and part of it was the fact that I can't stand organized education. There's nothing wrong with it; I just personally hate it. I prefer working and always have.
I'm not saying it's that way for everyone. College is a fantastic experience beyond academic for many, many people. But for me, it was an asset that I thought long and hard about purchasing. There was a great huge chunk of my early adulthood where I honestly thought it wasn't worth it. I was wrong.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on May 23, 2011 12:48:53 GMT -5
College is a fantastic experience beyond academic for many, many people. But for me, it was an asset that I thought long and hard about purchasing ![](http://us.social.s-msn.com/s/images/emoticons/thumbs_up.gif) I feel the same way about my degree. It was a means to an end, especially since I had to pay for it. I was there to get that piece of paper and get out. If I want "enrichment" I'll find free things to do or go thru the community college, not get a bachelor's degree. For $500 a credit hour I wasn't investing too much time in socializing, but then again that might be because I am anti social. ;D
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swamp
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Post by swamp on May 23, 2011 12:50:59 GMT -5
College is a fantastic experience beyond academic for many, many people. But for me, it was an asset that I thought long and hard about purchasing ![](http://us.social.s-msn.com/s/images/emoticons/thumbs_up.gif) I feel the same way about my degree. It was a means to an end, especially since I had to pay for it. I was there to get that piece of paper and get out. If I want "enrichment" I'll find free things to do or go thru the community college, not get a bachelor's degree. For $500 a credit hour I wasn't investing too much time in socializing, but then again that might be because I am anti social. ;D I saw the social aspect of college as part of the education. Different strokes for different folks.......... ETA: Networking/rainmaking is a huge part of my job. I can't get the clients if I'm not out there and getting along with people. There are a couple of phenonemal attorneys around here who don't do too well financially because they don't have any social skills.
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qofcc
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Post by qofcc on May 23, 2011 13:00:31 GMT -5
Take this for what it's worth because I graduated HS 24 years ago, but I graduated 10th out of 187 (just missed top 5%, would have been salutatorian if that stupid guidance counselor hadn't insisted I take Latin). My GPA was somewhere in the low 90's (just missed the full ride scholarship for GPA of 95). I received a Regent's scholarship for $500 and a couple of local scholarships for a couple hundred dollars that almost covered the cost of books. There was some grant money that brought my parent's contribution (including room & board) down to a few thousand dollars. I was awarded a work study job being paid $3.35/hr as a dishwasher in the cafeteria (which I quit as soon as I turned 18 and was able to buy a junker car and go to work delivering pizza). I paid my tuition myself for the 2nd semester because my parents couldn't help me and I was paying all of my own living expenses with the pizza job living in an apartment with roommates. There was no scholarship money for living expenses and after a year of this I was exhausted and took a job as an Office Manager and didn't go back. For the year I was there (Retailing major then switched to Accounting), I was totally unimpressed by the coursework. Everything was either a review of HS or common sense. 20 years later, I took a bunch of equivalency tests and was awarded an AS in Business. I spent a few weeks brushing up before taking the tests, but other than some obscure math problems that in no way relate to business or practical life, there was nothing on the tests that I hadn't learned through practical experience. So, to me, that piece of paper is just something that proves that I know what I know, but that doesn't prove the converse that if you don't have the piece of paper you don't know those things.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on May 23, 2011 13:02:59 GMT -5
I get what you are saying swamp. I've just never agreed with getting a degree for the sake of the "experience", especially with how much they cost.
I transferred as well, coming in as a junior doesn't really work out very well, it's like being the new kid in town. Then with the course load I had to take on top of that there wasn't much room for the social aspect of college. The way I chose to go about getting my degree meant I didn't really have time for the "experience" of college.
The college I went to now is getting better when it comes to intergrating transfer students, especially as it is becoming more popular as costs go up. I fell thru the cracks, it was like being a freshman all over again without the hand holding.
Not being a huge socializer to begin with it didn't really bother me all that much. I don't know if it really cost me in terms of networking since I didn't stay in the area, but who knows how life would have been if I had gone all four years.
If at all possible DD will be going to ONE school. Transferring saved me a lot of money, but the hassles that came with it pretty much wipe that out.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on May 23, 2011 13:04:47 GMT -5
I get what you are saying swamp. I've just never agreed with getting a degree for the sake of the "experience", especially with how much they cost. I guess if it cost a fortune, it would have been differnent. I had an awesome scholarship and 4 years of a private college cost my parents about $12,000 total.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on May 23, 2011 13:09:43 GMT -5
ETA: Networking/rainmaking is a huge part of my job. I can't get the clients if I'm not out there and getting along with people. There are a couple of phenonemal attorneys around here who don't do too well financially because they don't have any social skills.
I learned NO social skills in college. I was way too depressed. If anything, that's where my social life went to die, haha. Which is fine because I learned a lot of social skills working in high school and even more working between my college years.
If I could do one part of it over, I would probably double my course load in freshman and sophomore year and take a full semester over summer. That's how I did it my last year in college (and how I managed to squish junior and senior year into a single calendar year). I got out way faster that way. If only I had realized what a good idea it was my freshman year.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on May 23, 2011 13:12:03 GMT -5
ETA: Networking/rainmaking is a huge part of my job. I can't get the clients if I'm not out there and getting along with people. There are a couple of phenonemal attorneys around here who don't do too well financially because they don't have any social skills. I learned NO social skills in college. I was way too depressed. If anything, that's where my social life went to die, haha. Which is fine because I learned a lot of social skills working in high school and even more working between my college years. If I could do one part of it over, I would probably double my course load in freshman and sophomore year and take a full semester over summer. That's how I did it my last year in college (and how I managed to squish junior and senior year into a single calendar year). I got out way faster that way. If only I had realized what a good idea it was my freshman year. I'm sorry that college sucked for you. I'm not saying college is the only place you can learn to network, but it worked for me.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on May 23, 2011 13:14:23 GMT -5
I'm not saying college is the only place you can learn to network, but it worked for me.
Agreed. It works for a lot of people; I'm pretty weird in this respect ;D Not trying to knock your experience at all.
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qofcc
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Post by qofcc on May 23, 2011 13:35:14 GMT -5
I learned NO social skills in college. I was way too depressed. If anything, that's where my social life went to die, haha. Which is fine because I learned a lot of social skills working in high school and even more working between my college years.
That was my experience too. I went to a big party school and I just HATED it. The big thing was frat parties (open to all, not just the greeks) and those things were just so obnoxious and dangerous, someone was always getting alcohol poisoning or raped or otherwise injured. I couldn't wait until the weekend to catch a ride to my boyfriend's grandparents farm and get away from that place. Living in a dorm was hell on earth. Stupid people drinking 'till they puke all the time. Communal bathrooms, disgusting cafeteria food. High School was fun socially. I was a yearbook editor and editor-in-chief of the newspaper for 3 years and I had a job and lots of friends. College sucked.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on May 23, 2011 13:38:18 GMT -5
Living in a dorm was hell on earth. Stupid people drinking 'till they puke all the time. Communal bathrooms, disgusting cafeteria food.
Amen. I was so happy to live ALONE for awhile after I graduated. It was nice to not have to chase girls out of my bathroom because the boys were too busy puking in their's.
I got invited to their party once, I was tempted to ask them if they got tired of banging the chicks that hogged my bathroom and were looking to branch out.
I made some professional connections but since I didn't stay in the area they petered out. The connections I've made now are much more beneficial to me.
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qofcc
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Post by qofcc on May 23, 2011 13:42:58 GMT -5
I didn't make one professional connection there. The one girl I did make friends with went back to working in her little hometown grocery store after college and waiting for her BF to finish school so they could get married.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on May 23, 2011 13:43:58 GMT -5
My one friend is off somewhere with the Peace Corps, last time I talked to her she was in Nicaragua.
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michelyn8
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Post by michelyn8 on May 23, 2011 13:49:21 GMT -5
Not getting a college degree does not automatically equal laziness. I was in my 30's before I even had an interest in going to college and it was about that time that businesses started asking for "that piece of paper" for basic clerical positions. Up until that point, the skills I gained taking vocational classes in high school and attending a secretarial school after were more than adequate for the jobs I had. Added to that education was the fact that I am a quick learner and mostly self-taught on programs like MS Office as I needed to learn them.
I attempted night classes between 2001 and 2003. I finished a few but after a while, I noticed the toll my absence was taking on my children. I was gone all day for work and then at night for classes so I wasn't there for them. And I had no support system to pick up the slack so I quit. I attempted it again once they were grown, but lost interest fairly quickly. After working all day, the last thing I felt like doing was trying to learn something that I didn't care about and wasn't needed for my job just because it was a requirement for the degree. Now I work 4-10's and am home 2-3 hours before I head to bed each night. If I could find a way to take classes only on Fridays, I might consider going back but I doubt that would work anywhere but online and I'm one that needs the interaction of an in person class.
I don't think that makes me lazy, it just means I have different priorities for my time outside of work.
I have done well without a degree but I have no illusions that I could get a job elsewhere making as much as I do now. For one, jobs that pay like mine are few and far between for what I do. And secondly, I would need to stay with a larger company to get even close to my current salary - and once I leave this one, I don't intend to work for another large corporation ever again if I can help it.
I'm hopeful that one day employers will become more realistic in their education requirements for certain positions. You'll never convince me that someone hired for basic clerical "needs" a BA/BS to do their job. However, if I need to have my appendix out, then darn straight I want the most well educated/well trained person available.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on May 23, 2011 13:57:27 GMT -5
I think most people who don't have college education don't do it NOT because they planned not to get into a six-figure debt; they don't get the college degree because they are lazy or don't think college is for them. You really don't know people who avoided or put off college for financial reasons? I served with a bunch of them in the military. Not all of us get a blank check from mom and dad every semester for tuition, and shockingly there are still plenty of youngish people who want to avoid student loan debt like the plague. Some of them watched their parents really struggle to pay theirs off, some were probably scared from media articles and whatnot without ever really talking to a college financial aid office (I heard all kinds of seemingly wildly inflated price tags for how much a degree would cost), but there are people who don't go for financial reasons. Blame laziness if you want, but working for a living is a way bigger drag than partying for a few years while getting a fluff degree.
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Post by illinicheme on May 23, 2011 14:13:56 GMT -5
I had the opposite social experience in college. (Despite going to a giant state school!) My mom likes to say I went to college and came home talking. I had very little in common with most classmates in high school. I found my people in college, and even more-so in grad school.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on May 23, 2011 14:28:53 GMT -5
Blame laziness if you want, but working for a living is a way bigger drag than partying for a few years while getting a fluff degree.
Though it's true that there are options besides those two binary ones.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on May 23, 2011 14:56:21 GMT -5
Just to touch on the "what do people learn in college" for a moment:
I've told this story before, but in my last semester I had a class where we had to peer-edit a bunch of papers. There were four people in my group. Two of them were passable writers (not great; their papers still required a shitload of editing) and one was an absolute trainwreck. Couldn't spell, couldn't put a coherent sentence together, didn't have any grasp of grammar at all. And needless to say I couldn't follow the thread of his essay without psychic powers.
No kidding, the point of one paragraph would be "Bees make honey, therefore we should all harvest beehives in our backyard and make our own honey" and the point of the next one would be "sometimes parents sue parks because their children get stung by bees."
Now, I fully admit that a) I'm a bit of a grammar/spelling snob and b) writing has always come easily to me. But, I honestly didn't think the third guy deserved to graduate. If you can make it to your SENIOR YEAR OF COLLEGE without being able to put together a coherent essay, then you are probably not ready to face the real world. You may not need to write essays in the course of your daily life, but you do need to write emails that get a point across.
And to be honest, I didn't think the other two were quite ready either. Seriously, I think you need to know the difference between "their" and "there" before you're ready to graduate college. And many don't.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on May 23, 2011 14:59:37 GMT -5
My boss got a grant that called the male reproductive cell a ooycte instead of a spermatocyte. It went automatically into the rejection pile because either the guy didn't bother to proofread or he somehow missed a critical part of Biology 101 and is needed knowledge for Developmental Biology. ![:o](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/shocked.png) My boss said a lot of good researchers screw themselves out of a lot of money because they can't write themselves out of a paper bag.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on May 23, 2011 15:01:47 GMT -5
My boss got a grant that called the male reproductive cell a ooycte instead of a spermatocyte. It went automatically into the rejection pile because either the guy didn't bother to proofread or he somehow missed a critical part of Biology 101 and is needed knowledge for Developmental Biology. ![:o](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/shocked.png) My boss said a lot of good researchers screw themselves out of a lot of money because they can't write themselves out of a paper bag. ![](http://us.social.s-msn.com/s/images/emoticons/what_smile.gif) . I haven't taken bio since 1989, but I see the problem............
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on May 23, 2011 15:04:10 GMT -5
I haven't taken bio since 1989, but I see the problem............ He had to read it twice because surely someone who had gotten to that point in his career would know the difference. He said either way it shows extreme sloppiness on the guy's part. If it was an error it shows that he doesn't bother to double check his work which in turn makes you wonder if he bothers to double check ANYTHING he does. I'd like to hope it was just a stupid mistake because it's downright depressing if you can get your PhD and work in developmental biology without knowing the difference between a spermatocyte and a oocyte. ![:o](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/shocked.png)
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on May 23, 2011 15:04:49 GMT -5
This message has been deleted.
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iono1
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Post by iono1 on May 23, 2011 15:10:06 GMT -5
The big city next door to me doesn't even graduate 60% of it's high schoolers. ![](http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff155/JiminiChristmas/smileys/1.gif) It's really bad in Albany, NY : www.albanyschools.org/district/Secondary%20Proposal/HS%20Restructuring/Albany%20High%20FAQs-updated%201-28-11.pdfQ: Why is Albany High School restructuring? A large percentage of students has not been successful at Albany High School. The school’s performance on state exams in math and English language arts, as well as the school’s four-year graduation rate (currently 54 percent), have lagged below state and national standards. It also is important to note that 68 percent of Albany High’s students take one extra year to graduate (five years) and 75 percent of Albany High’s students graduate in six years.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on May 23, 2011 15:12:08 GMT -5
The city of Albany itself is a hell hole. I wouldnt' send my kids to public school there. Interestingly, suburban schools like Bethlehem, Guilderland, Shaker, and Shenendehoa are doing very well. It has everything to do with the parents, not the school, IMO.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on May 23, 2011 15:14:45 GMT -5
I thought overall college was worth it. I couldn’t have gotten to where I am now without it. As far as socially, I have (mostly) fond memories of my college years. I won’t say it was all sunshine and bunnies though. My senior year my roommate went out drinking and came back wearing nothing but a towel and passed out in front of my bed. Another year, my roommate got drunk and urinated all over someone else’s room then got arrested for it. And every once and a while someone would puke in the hall or in the bathroom and it wouldn’t get cleaned up until Monday.
But the good far outweigh the bad in my experience.
I didn’t do any networking really. I ended up leaving the state and the entire region of the country where I went to school, so networking really didn’t matter.
I’m glad I went to school and would do it all over again. I might select a different major though.
I always feel like most of the college bashers have some type of inferiority complex and are more trying to convince themselves they’re just as smart and capable as college grads.
I don’t think college is for everyone, but I don’t think it’s a bad investment for those who have the ability to succeed.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on May 23, 2011 15:16:53 GMT -5
As far as whether a college degree is worth it looking strictly at dollars and cents. There are numerous studies and polls out there (no, I shouldn’t have to find them for you). College grads make 1 million or more than someone with a H.S diploma, and unemployment of college grads is significantly less.
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michelyn8
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Post by michelyn8 on May 23, 2011 15:40:06 GMT -5
I always feel like most of the college bashers have some type of inferiority complex and are more trying to convince themselves they’re just as smart and capable as college grads.
On the flip side, just because you went to college doesn't automatically make you smarter than someone who didn't. I've met plenty of folks (and I'm sure you have too) with college degrees who are just flat out stupid. It makes me wonder how they managed to complete the GER's let alone the ones needed for their degree.
We have very little manufacturing left in this country. Its not like it was when I finished high school in the mid-80's and you could get a job in a factory as long as you had the HS diploma or your GED. A young person's options are much more limited now.
At this point in time, it is more beneficial for a person to have some type of college degree - Associates, Bachelors or Masters (depending on their field) or vocational training for a skilled trade. It comes down to parents and guidance counselors helping the younger generation make the choice that is best for them.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on May 23, 2011 15:40:31 GMT -5
College grads make 1 million or more than someone with a H.S diploma, and unemployment of college grads is significantly less.
Is this still true? I know that figure used to be cited a lot in the 80s and 90s. I wouldn't be surprised if it was no longer the case. The people I know who have graduated recently have mostly had a REALLY hard time finding adequate jobs at all, never mind in their preferred field.
I only got my current job because of my previous experience. A lot of people had significantly more difficulty if they recently graduated but haven't much work experience.
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