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Post by debtheaven on May 20, 2011 19:18:42 GMT -5
Anne raised a good question, frankly I have wondered about that too.
ETA: Loop I saw your answer to Anne, but DH is already working, and has been for years. Different kettle of fish IMO, but a potentially valid question nonetheless.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on May 20, 2011 19:22:18 GMT -5
True enough about firms/businesses use to wanting more "well-rounded" people but not anymore. It is what it is. You want to go to college then either be independently wealthy to major in Art History like Wills and Kate or get a degree in something that will get you a job and make you a living.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on May 20, 2011 19:35:32 GMT -5
Dark - have you hit any sort of ceiling without a degree? Not so far. I'll probably have to finish my PMP certification before I make the jump to project management though. I really don't see a bachelors doing anything for me at this point in my career. A masters would probably help though.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on May 20, 2011 19:39:51 GMT -5
OK, so let's say you're doing just OK since you don't (yet?) own the yacht LOL. Actually I hate the term yacht, it sounds pretentious and snooty. That could just be my humble upbringing though. All I want is a nice little 35-40' sailboat.
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dancinmama
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Post by dancinmama on May 20, 2011 20:07:53 GMT -5
The other thing you see when you look at future job projections and college degrees is how much degree choice will matter. Some college majors are well-placed for growth and others are not. southernsusana told how here DH got a job with a Math degree even though it wasn't an area where he would directly use it; a guy in our church who had a long, successful career in the commercial real estate area of banking majored in early English Lit. (think Chaucer and Beowulf) at the U. of Toronto. A bank hired and trained him. He's in his 50s. If he graduated now he'd be offered commission-only jobs selling life insurance and annuities. I wish employers would stop being so pigheaded about the degree and look at the person, but that takes too much work. DH's company not only wants the degree, they want close to a 4.0 GPA. DH has been trying to advocate for applicants who, like him, maybe could not devote 24/7 to school because either they were on a sports scholarship or they had to work to get through or both. If DH were fresh out of school and applying to his company today, they would not even look at him because of his lower than 3.8 GPA. ![](http://forum.blu-ray.com/images/smilies/imported/crazy.gif)
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stats45
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Post by stats45 on May 20, 2011 21:31:03 GMT -5
Dancin: That is exactly what happens. Some businesses use grades; others tend to hire from particular universities. Since more people have college degrees, businesses have to add more layers of requirements to separate applicants.
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wvugurl26
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Post by wvugurl26 on May 20, 2011 21:48:55 GMT -5
I got an undergrad degree in finance at a state university. Had a full scholarship graduated debt free in 2006. I looked for internships prior to senior year, very few to be found unless you were an accounting major. A few interviews popped up senior year through recruiting at the business school but I didn't get selected. All the jobs I was being offered were commission only gigs selling stuff. The few corporate finance gigs around wanted practically a degree in accounting as well.
I had done some accounting courses and they came pretty easily. My advisor encouraged me to dual major but I was sick of school and I wanted to graduate in 4 years while someone else was paying the bill. I went back to school in 2007 for a masters in accounting. Finished in summer 2008. Even making $10/hr as a temp my yearly salary was a bit more than my total loans.
I loved my masters degree program and the things it exposed me to. My loan payments are not fun right now bc of this expensive area and my relatively low salary. I get a raise next month and I've acquired my cpa license in one state and am acquiring it in my current state next month. I am hoping to keep my expenses lowish (I must have a new apt for health reasons) and get some side work since I am a licensed cpa. Work is very strict though so whatever I find must be approved via an 18 page application. Independence and ethics standards can be a beyotch.
Me the one who was done with school in 2006 and did 4 more semesters after that to get a masters had to take two more classes to meet the requirements for a cpa license in my current state. I have 204 hours and 2 degrees I am done! A lot of people did my masters program because of the 150 hour rule in most states to get your cpa license. I do still have to do a take home course to get my other cpa license. Gotta order that then I swear I'm done except for CPE and work training of course.
I doubt you can be a CPA anymore without a degree or at the very least the relevant accounting and business coursework. I don't need my CPA license to be a government auditor but it gives me other options for side work and leaving if I choose. Even though it is not a requirement for my position I audit outside entities who contract with the government and they respect auditors who are CPAs more. It matters to them.
My brother is finishing up hours to get his master electrician's license. The license isn't required for his job and neither is an electrical engineering degree. However, they seem to hire a whole lot of the engineers and I worry it may hurt his chances of moving up into management one day. He is better than most of their engineers at understanding how their system works, troubleshooting, and fixing but some value a piece of paper more than actual skills and knowledge.
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Post by Deleted on May 20, 2011 21:56:07 GMT -5
Actually, one of the highest current unemployment rates is among people who got their degree right before/since the crash. I graduated in the middle of the tech bust and it was brutal. By the time the economy recovers a lot of companies are just looking at new graduates . . .
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Post by dragonfly7 on May 21, 2011 1:09:44 GMT -5
This is the description of the past 5 years for DH. He graduated in 2006 with a science degree. The state promptly passed budget cuts, and he lost his first job out of school. We then moved to Texas for a private sector science position that was eliminated 1 1/2 years later. Next, a friend got him into financial services - right before the recession started. He spent another two years teaching after-school science/math classes, substitute teaching, tutoring, and training to get his alternative teaching certification before finally landing a position teaching middle school pre-AP science this past January. The possible Texas state budget reductions were announced a week later. Now, as much as his students, co-workers, and principal love him, his contract for next year is in limbo.
His new favorite question is, "What industry would you like for me to ruin next?"
I definitely bought into that myth because both it and susana's statement were heavily peddled by my high school counselor, parents, and some teachers. I chose a liberal arts major at an academically rigorous school because I would develop that "wide range of skills" while learning something interesting. After a transfer and some ups and downs due to DH's job changes, I ended up with a general liberal arts degree and am the person applying for the $11/hr receptionist jobs that require a BA. Since I've been unemployed over a year, there must be many other young people like me looking at the same things.
I'm incredibly jaded this week, but other weeks are better. Right now, I'm definitely a proponent of more vo-tech education, or at least majoring in something practical. My little sister is in in a physical therapy assistant program and, even though she hasn't finished her clinicals yet, she already has a job offer from her first clinical site.
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qofcc
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Post by qofcc on May 21, 2011 6:56:25 GMT -5
Dark, the best argument for you personally to get a degree wouldn't be that you would learn a lot in college compared to what you know from your experience, but that you would probably face a very difficult job market if you lost your job because of the practices anne81 described.
The other concern might be job or location lock. There could be some restrictions to further choices if it is hard to move because of hiring practices.
This is the thing I worry about. I did like Dark and worked my way up in a field that traditionally requires a degree (office manager to marketing to finance) without one because I'm good at what I do. I took a bunch of equivalency tests a few years ago and finished an associates degree, but most of the new people hired for my job title (Financial Analyst), have MBAs. They keep telling me that my job is secure because I do good work, I have historical company knowledge and technical skills that nobody else in the department has and I cheerfully do tasks other people don't want to be bothered with, but I know finding a job with a different employer if something were to happen would be difficult (not impossible, but time consuming) because of the weeding out people without degrees process and I would probably have to go back in at a lower salary and work my way back up. I worry about this, but I just haven't found the time & energy to go back and get a piece of paper that proves I know as much as my co-workers and it wouldn't make a difference in pay or advancement at this job, it would just be for insurance in case I lost this job. I debate this every year and I just haven't found a point in my life when I felt like I could squeeze one more thing in. I know I've hit a ceiling mainly because of the office politics type of skills required for the next level, not because of lack of a degree. I really don't think the amount of stress of doing something I absolutely hate would be worth the increase in pay they'd give me and that level of position has much less job stability.
I find it ridiculous that college isn't supposed to train you for a career and I agree that we should be adopting the European model of education and improving the technical school offerings. The state of education in this country could use a lot of improving.
The best argument I can see for getting a college degree right out of school (even if it's just a liberal arts associates degree from community college with carefully planned credits that could transfer) is that after you start working and get married and have a family it becomes increasingly difficult to find the time for school. That little bit of "some college" that could even be achieved with some AP courses in HS plus a few full semesters of community college, will at least open doors to entry level jobs at companies who will pay for you to finish a degree if they want you to have one. I still think it's possible for someone with a community college degree to get an entry level job in a company where they can work their way up.
I think it's extremely foolish to rack up a ton of debt on a degree with the expectation that it will get you a high paying job right out of school. But if a person has the opportunity to get a degree right out of HS without racking up a bunch of debt and it's something they want to do, then I think they should grab the chance before life happens.
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8 Bit WWBG
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Post by 8 Bit WWBG on May 21, 2011 7:01:26 GMT -5
10 years ago, I took the current tuition for my alma mater, and projected what it would be with 4% increases every year for 20 years in the future. If I was enrolling a child on that year, the tuition would be something like $70k.
I remember the President of the University talking about his youth, and how he went to Columbia University by working the summers. It kind of rubbed it in when he said "because back then it was actually possible to work your way through school".
Time to call my parents and thank them for paying for college again.
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Post by Savoir Faire-Demogague in NJ on May 21, 2011 7:09:10 GMT -5
Even if one pursued some sort of vocation or trade, let's say culinary arts as an example, you'd be looking at $30,000 to $40,000 for a two year program. A newly minted chef will start out in a carp job making bupkus.
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qofcc
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Post by qofcc on May 21, 2011 7:34:28 GMT -5
You can get a culinary degree at community college.
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Post by Savoir Faire-Demogague in NJ on May 21, 2011 8:54:30 GMT -5
One will not get the intensive training at a CC that you would get at say the CIA, French Institute, J&W or the Institute of Culinary Education.
Culinary Arts is one area where the school matters. World class chef/instructors will be at the culinary schools, not the local CCs.
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Post by lulubean on May 21, 2011 11:48:09 GMT -5
There will be a ceiling you hit in IT without a degree, if all you want to be is a tech then the degree is not needed.
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midjd
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Post by midjd on May 21, 2011 12:48:40 GMT -5
Culinary Arts is one area where the school matters. World class chef/instructors will be at the culinary schools, not the local CCs. I think this may depend on the region. Our state CC has a pretty good reputation in culinary arts, both my cousin and one of my good HS friends graduated from there. My HS friend just started his own restaurant after working at a 4-star place in Louisville (a Derby favorite), and my cousin had a great job when he passed away. If you're on the coasts, I'm sure it's much more competitive... the school may matter more. But around here, the CC degree is fine. As far as the OP topic goes, I think there are a lot of great thoughts in this thread. College isn't for everyone, and DH's family is a shining example of the things you can do without college, or with a 2-year CC degree - his dad (8th grade education) ran a successful logging business for 25 years, his brother-in-law (11th grade education) is an HVAC contractor, and his sister (2 years of CC) is a nurse (and makes more than I do as a government lawyer) ![;)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/wink.png) BUT, DH is going back to school as we speak - because around here, you can't get the job he wants (auto mechanic) without some kind of degree. The ones who have been in business for 20 years have the skills to carry themselves, but the new ones need outside certification to keep their applications out of the trash. So here we are. I wonder if, when the economy improves and it becomes less of an employer's market, the over-reliance (IMO) on a college degree will temper itself. To me, it seems almost lazy - I think an interview or skills evaluation would show an employer whether an applicant is a good fit for the job better than a "Went to ABC College" line on a resume, but it is a fairy simple weeding tool.
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jkapp
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Post by jkapp on May 21, 2011 12:51:34 GMT -5
College has never been "career tech." You were never supposed to graduate from college "trained" to do something unless maybe you were a nurse or teacher. (We are talking about undergraduate degrees.) What you were expected to demonstrate was that you had a wide range of skills and the ability to learn and adapt. Please don't criticize that job description too much. It isn't precise, but a general idea of what a college degree was supposed to offer. That's very true...I work with a woman who does GREAT in a school setting (homework, papers, projects, etc) and is graduating with high honors. But I have never in my life met another person who is so bad at utilizing what they have learned and applying it to the workplace. She is totally lost at the actual application of what she has learned, it's mind-blowing! ![:o](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/shocked.png)
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on May 21, 2011 13:12:26 GMT -5
"I find it ridiculous that college isn't supposed to train you for a career and I agree that we should be adopting the European model of education and improving the technical school offerings. The state of education in this country could use a lot of improving."
I disagree with the notion that a college degree should be the same as a voc tech and just teach you to do one career. If this economy has shown anything it's that your career can become obsolete and then were would you be? Being flexible and having the ability to learn is king.
Let's say we change schooling and push kids to college to learn how to make widgets because widgets are in demand and the pay is good. That works okay but in 10 years something better comes along to replace the widgets. The widget industry goes bankrupt and all the employees are laid off. But these kids only learned how to make widgets in college and when they're laid off they don't have the education or skills to do anything other than make widgets. They were taught skills that became obsolete or were no longer needed, not how to learn. I thought one of the great criticisms of education was the lack of critical thinking and promotion of regurgitating for the standardized tests. But it seems people don't care about critical thinking and want to just teach students how to make widgets.
By turning college into a bigger voc tech program you just shoehorn people into one skill and career that may or may not be obsolete. I'm sure at one time horse and buggy operators and blacksmiths were in demand.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on May 21, 2011 14:01:32 GMT -5
They were taught skills that became obsolete or were no longer needed, not how to learn. What's the difference between learning job applicable skills in order to learn how to learn and learning art history in order to learn how to learn? The process of teaching people to learn and educate themselves would be exactly the same no matter what subject you're learning about, so why not focus on subjects that are a little more applicable to the work force? It's not like European students don't have to take some humanities courses while getting their degree. They still come out rounded, they just focus a little more on also being qualified for specific careers and industries within their major. Sounds like a good idea to me.
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Post by lulubean on May 21, 2011 14:54:10 GMT -5
There are still employers that are in need of the soft skills in IT, even in this day and age DH is still amazed at the rep techs get. So if you are in IT and have great soft skills you can be destined for greatness as there still doesn't seem to be many.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 21, 2011 16:43:16 GMT -5
Dark, people who major in Art History really want to work in that field. Ditto, business, public relations, engineering, etc.
So you come out of college with a general idea of how the field works. But you have also taken a lot of seeming unrelated courses that will help you as well . . . speech, writing courses, history (learn from our mistakes!), math, etc.
Part of the new evaluation system for Alabama teachers wants to know how I incorporate math in my English classroom. On one level, that sounds silly. But I do incorporate it. I teach them how to figure out their average. Since I use categories, there is a formula involved. I teach them proportions and how to convert them to a 100-point scale if I decide to give 78 questions on a test instead of 100.
I couldn't do that if my "college education" had consisted only of English courses. I might know my field but not its connection with other fields of knowledge. Those other fields are important.
My son, however, would argue your side. He made one B in college . . . in a required art history course. He is a CPA and has no interest in art history. Lol.
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qofcc
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Post by qofcc on May 21, 2011 17:04:00 GMT -5
Part of the new evaluation system for Alabama teachers wants to know how I incorporate math in my English classroom. On one level, that sounds silly. But I do incorporate it. I teach them how to figure out their average. Since I use categories, there is a formula involved. I teach them proportions and how to convert them to a 100-point scale if I decide to give 78 questions on a test instead of 100.
I couldn't do that if my "college education" had consisted only of English courses. I might know my field but not its connection with other fields of knowledge. Those other fields are important.
Not to be snarky, but you needed a college education in math to teach your students how to figure out their average? Umm... If that wasn't in the 9th grade algebra curriculum, then it was part of the 7-8th grade "word problem" math curriculum back when I was in school. If a person graduates HS and goes off to college without being able to figure out their GPA then our high schools are in trouble.
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Post by Deleted on May 21, 2011 17:26:09 GMT -5
I didn't take it personally because I know how to figure their average. Whether it's because I took high school math 40-something years ago or because I learned it in college, I have no idea. I have no idea where I have learned a lot of things because I simply know them. But I did take a couple of math courses in college for whatever reason, even though I was an English major, as well as a statistics course. But the majority of the students have NO idea. Since they are currently seniors in high school, I guess they don't teach that skill any more . . . not specifically, anyway. In any case, i can mark "yes" next to the box that says I incorporate math in my English classroom. ![:)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/smiley.png)
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stats45
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Post by stats45 on May 21, 2011 17:55:47 GMT -5
I think the diverse group of classes in the first couple years of college is another place though where the idea doesn't always match up to the reality.
I know plenty of people who took remarkably easy science, math, literature, and history courses to meet these requirements. The idea is that everyone comes out with some basic skills in these areas. The reality is often that these courses are at best high school level and often don't require enough effort to leave students with much after the class has ended.
For example, there has been a strong move in many schools away from, for example, requiring all students to take either biology, chemistry, and/or physics toward requiring a general group of science credits that might be satisfied by very basic earth science or science history classes. The same is true with many math requirements. The college may require six credits, but classes like 'Liberal Arts Math' can count toward the total. What should be a remedial math class for college students helps to fulfill the math requirement.
It is a bit more difficult to spot this in English, and history/social science classes, but it happens often in the form of fewer reading and writing requirements and less comprehensive or challenging material.
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Post by Deleted on May 21, 2011 18:10:24 GMT -5
Well, Stats, I didn't take the same math courses that math majors did. They took pre-cal and calculus and stuff like that. I took algebra and then a trigonometry class. My son took the same algebra class that I took when he was a fourteen-year-old many years later (we lived in a college town); he said it was a repeat of what he had learned in Algebra I but with a much better instructor. Of course, he was also mathematically gifted so his opinion is somewhat tainted.
So my math courses weren't advanced, but they did insure that I had a decent basis in algebra (the trig. course was my idea since I rather liked math courses). I think that's what all the 100 level courses in college do, which is why AP courses allow you to skip them.
My point is simply that colleges aren't vocational courses. That being said, I am glad I majored in English but with a teaching certificate. I get student teachers every year who are doing a "fifth year program," which means they couldn't figure out how to make a career out of their major other than teaching. Many are GOOD teachers, but it wasn't their first choice.
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stats45
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Post by stats45 on May 21, 2011 18:35:37 GMT -5
Southern, I didn't mean the comment directly about your experience but more about the general topic.
I just keep thinking back to the things that caused Dark to start the thread. What do students actually learn in college or to what degree should businesses take a college degree into account when making hiring decisions? Is it really a good decision to increase college enrollment? I think that we often overstate the abilities of many college students/graduates relative to non-college students/graduates.
If math majors are taking the same english classes they took in high school and vice versa, what is the point? I certainly don't understand why we enroll so many people in college now who require large periods of remedial education. It seems like a waste of time and money.
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Post by stl76 on May 21, 2011 18:43:38 GMT -5
"I find it ridiculous that college isn't supposed to train you for a career and I agree that we should be adopting the European model of education and improving the technical school offerings. The state of education in this country could use a lot of improving."
Unlike a vocational school, you do not focus on one thing in college. Im a mechanical engineer. It is just practically impossible to teach all aspects of mechanical engineering in school. College teaches you the basics and how to get started. There are certain things you learn in school that help you understand things better. Im sure somebody without a bachelors of science degree can learn to do my job if they have the interest/smarts/etc. But what they cant get without the degree is their foot in the door as a mechanical engineer, they would have to start from the bottom whatever that may be. And im pretty sure they would hit a ceiling at some pointbecause of the lack of that "piece of paper". By the way, i love how people who dont gave a degree think its just a piece of paper, if that was the case why dont you (genereal comment not directedto anyone) have one?
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Post by stl76 on May 21, 2011 18:48:55 GMT -5
I will definitely be pushing my kids to get college degrees and not just any degrees, practical and employable degrees. I never had any barriers getting a job because i do have a practical degree but i have seen plenty of people around me who either have unnecessary or useless (sorry if i offend anyone) degrees or no degrees that had this issue.
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Post by Deleted on May 21, 2011 18:54:53 GMT -5
I'm not absolutely sure what people learn in college that they can't learn otherwise, but I am actually rather OLD to enter this discussion now that I think about it. For my generation (I graduated in 1974), it honestly was the ticket to a better-than-average job. My ex-DH's father actually refused to let either of his son's major in business (math was ok) because it was too easy and wouldn't lead to a job. Lol.
Maybe you can still be a huge success without a college education. My parents didn't chance it, though, even back then. There was a college fund in place even though I was basically orphaned (one parent dead and one mentally incapacitated). There was a college trust fund. For my own kids, it was "when" you go to college rather than "if." They did, however, choose professions . . . pharmacist and CPA. It's not an "if" for my grandkids, either.
I think the generational thing is more important than we recognize. Colleges do extra support for first-generation college students. I can see why after reading this thread.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on May 21, 2011 19:15:38 GMT -5
Dark, people who major in Art History really want to work in that field. Ditto, business, public relations, engineering, etc. For my generation (I graduated in 1974), it honestly was the ticket to a better-than-average job. These statements are why I think we should look at how and what our colleges are teaching. People go to college in order to get jobs. That's the reason they're there. So if you go get your degree in whatever area of study only to find out after graduation that you aren't actually prepared for any jobs in that field I could see how you'd feel pretty damn ripped off. I'm not saying we have to turn college into pure vo-tech schooling, but some elements of it wouldn't be a bad idea. After all the whole reason the students are there is to get a better job later. It's why parents push their kids to go, it's why kids go into debt in order to attend, etc. We can talk all we want about being well rounded, but in the end we view college as a gateway to better paying or more satisfying jobs, so I see nothing wrong with recognizing the job training element of higher education and maybe emphasizing it a bit.
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