stats45
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Post by stats45 on May 21, 2011 19:50:07 GMT -5
I've only been out of college for a few months, and I spent nine years in college from my undergrad to finishing my doctorate. I worked a good amount during that time, but there is no way I could do what I am doing now without my education. I would recommend a college education to any motivated and intelligent person.
That said, the topic was about expanding college to 60% of the population and whether or not the job market is set up to provide jobs for these graduates that requires a college degree. Pushing more students through college isn't a magic pill for creating more jobs that require a college degree. It is an especially bad idea if the students are marginal and are likely to pursue the path of least resistance in college and graduate with a degree that doesn't have some clear job match.
I think, however, that much of this is due to preferring college graduates for jobs that either don't need or gain anything all other things equal by hiring someone with a degree. A huge number of students today graduate in the social sciences, soft business majors, humanities who didn't enter college thinking because they wanted to be a psychology major, for example. The majority of students switch their major in college, and a large group of students just end up moving to a major to just finish their degree.
What advantage should a student with a very general social science degree and two years of relatively easy general education credits have over other people in an entry-level sales or management position? I would argue some, but not so much that they make the first cut just for having a degree.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on May 21, 2011 20:15:03 GMT -5
Dark,
Just curious, if you were in a position to hire people, would you hire someone with a college degree over someone who didn't if all else was similar?
That's the position most employers are in. You can have hundreds, if not thousands of applicants for a job and there has to be some way to widdle down the numbers. It's not always the best answer I agree, but I can see why employers do it.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on May 22, 2011 1:06:16 GMT -5
When I'm hiring for my team I'm looking at experience. I'm filling positions that require pretty specific skill sets. There's a world of difference between network engineers with a lot of experience on Cisco, F5, and Juniper equipment; and a Solaris administrator with sun cluster experience and solid scripting skills. Both of those guys might have a computer science degree though. You can only tell them apart based on past job titles, certifications, or by talking to them in an interview. Just curious, if you were in a position to hire people, would you hire someone with a college degree over someone who didn't if all else was similar? If all else is equal I'm taking the guy or gal I liked the best in the interview. Keep in mind though that I don't hire for entry level positions. We just don't have room for any on this contract. I won't even see a resume unless they've got at least 3 years of experience in the specific subject matter areas I told HR I'm looking for, with 5-7 total years of experience. 5 years if it's all relevant work experience, 7 years if it's 3 years experience and 4 years "experience" from a degree. That's bare minimum, just to get the resume through HR and to me. Anything short of that and it'll get "filed" somewhere without me ever seeing it. If I have any doubts about their ability to do the job they aren't getting a spot, because I don't want the headache of training them and especially answering for their inevitable screw ups. If I'm confident they can do the job, why would a degree or lack thereof matter one way or the other?
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qofcc
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Post by qofcc on May 22, 2011 9:57:35 GMT -5
I'm not a hiring manager in my current job, but when I was an Office Manager and a Management Analyst I hired administrative assistants. As long as they scored intermediate to advanced in the Microsoft Office exam, my next screening criteria was relevant experience. I'd take someone with a year's experience as a waitress in a busy restaurant over a recent college graduate any day provided she has good references. A good waitress is going to know how to respond to an angry customer and juggle multiple tasks without loosing focus and be a team player with the sales people and deferential to upper management. If someone has proven computer skills, I can teach them how to use the accounting software and operate the switchboard, but I want someone with proven judgment and organizational skills. If they both have relevant experience, then I'd go with the one with the better personality/people skills/attitude.
The difference between most professional/technical degrees and the more liberal arts type degrees is the internship component. If you go to school to be a nurse or a teacher or a HVAC technician, you're required to go out and actually perform supervised work in a real job site and prove you're capable of performing the job before you receive a degree. If all of the degrees required a full semester of internship where the person had to demonstrate practical application of what they've learned, I think it would do individuals and the companies that hire them a world of good and make the degrees more valuable.
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ameiko
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Post by ameiko on May 22, 2011 10:40:28 GMT -5
Sadly, college is becoming a bad idea. This is particularly so for men. 1. College tution and fees are outpacing inflation significantly. Why? 2. College students are taking increasingly high debt loads that are difficult to pay off, particularly if they take the wrong degree. For example, borrowing 100K to obtain a 35k/year social worker job is insane. 3. The value of a college education has dropped because so many people have gone to college. This is partly due to the influx of women into the university (don't hate here, it's just true- women's groups pushed for more women to go to college to even out the ratio of male to female only to go past the point of 50-50 to 60-40 or worse). As a percentage, we have added more degrees than jobs to the nation and thus the value of said degree MUST drop by the law of supply and demand. 4. Mentioned in #2 but also touched up on #3: too many of the wrong degrees. Women's studies? Medieval literature? Uncountable numbers of psychology and sociolgy degrees? They are all but worthless in the real world; we have well educated Starbucks barristas but that's about it. 5. Rememer I mentioned that college was especially bad for men? Well worse than even the male bashing, all men are evil rapists women's studies courses that all students must take at many colleges, we have this, according to the Foundation for Individual Rights in Education: thefire.org/case/862.htmlMay 5, 2011: In response to new federal regulations announced last month that require colleges and universities to dramatically reduce students' due process rights, FIRE today sent an open letter to the United States Department of Education's Office for Civil Rights (OCR) sharply criticizing the agency's new requirements. Under the new regulations, announced in an April 4, 2011, letter from Assistant Secretary for Civil Rights Russlynn Ali, colleges and universities receiving federal funding must employ a "preponderance of the evidence" standard—a 50.01%, "more likely than not" evidentiary burden—when adjudicating student complaints concerning sexual harassment or sexual violence. Institutions that do not comply face federal investigations and loss of federal funding.The normal standard of evidence employed by most colleges is “clear and convincing evidence” standard where there must be a high probability that the offense occurred. It is simply too easy under this new standard, imposed by the Obama administration, for a man to be falsely accused of rape or harrassment and not only be tossed out of college but be branded for the rest of his life. This can not simply be about tracking down the guilty or why only demand this on alledged sexual harrasment and assault rather than all transgressions? So college is starting to becoming a bad idea and indeed many of the jobs that graduates can get can also be outsourced. Consider instead blue collar work like HVAC, plumbing, etc... high pay, can't be outsourced, and no 100K college loan debt.
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ameiko
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Post by ameiko on May 22, 2011 10:56:01 GMT -5
Obama wants a significant increase in college graduates? I'm sure that has zero to do with the fact that his administration and the Democrat congress federalize student loans....
"Go to school kids! Become a source of government revenue through your taxes AND education debts!"
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Mad Dawg Wiccan
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Post by Mad Dawg Wiccan on May 22, 2011 19:23:52 GMT -5
College isn't for everyone. There are plenty of tech schools offering certificate or associate degree programs that can land you a good paying job.
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wvugurl26
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Post by wvugurl26 on May 22, 2011 19:38:09 GMT -5
How the hell is 6.8% interest subsidized money?
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svwashout
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Post by svwashout on May 22, 2011 19:56:28 GMT -5
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Post by stl76 on May 22, 2011 21:07:06 GMT -5
"If all of the degrees required a full semester of internship where the person had to demonstrate practical application of what they've learned, I think it would do individuals and the companies that hire them a world of good and make the degrees more valuable."
A nurse or an HVAC technician does only 1 thing. I am a mechanical engineer. There isn't just one thing I can do, there are endless career possibilities, job duties, etc that I can do. It is IMPOSSIBLE for me to learn all of the possibilities just in school or even through internships. I can design equipment but just look around you, everything you see around you that has a mechanical part is designed by a mechanical engineer (HVAC which in itself has hundreds if not thousands of different types, any part that goes into an HVAC equipment, cars, robotics, etc). And equipment design is only one possibility for a mechanical engineer. I can work in building systems design (HVAC, plumbing, fire protection, etc). But even that has a lot of different areas, designing building systems for a hospital is a lot different than designing a school, even schools are different from each other as in high school versus university. People do these things for 30-40 years and still dont know all aspects. These things you learn on the job. Even an HVAC technician has a lot of on-the-job learning to do. Every piece of equipment is different. What they learn in school is the basic understanding of how to install/troubleshoot basic HVAC systems/equipment. Every manufacturer has a different way of doing things. So you have no idea what you are talking about.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on May 22, 2011 21:15:53 GMT -5
Nobody ever said you'd have to demonstrate every possible aspect of anything relating to your degree. They said one semester of practical application. Even for the mighty mechanical engineers, whose job duties could be as varied as designing stuff or designing other stuff, it wouldn't hurt to show that you could in fact design stuff in the real world.
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Post by stl76 on May 22, 2011 21:41:04 GMT -5
"Nobody ever said you'd have to demonstrate every possible aspect of anything relating to your degree. They said one semester of practical application. Even for the mighty mechanical engineers, whose job duties could be as varied as designing stuff or designing other stuff, it wouldn't hurt to show that you could in fact design stuff in the real world. "
And we do that. We have classes where we put our knowledge into practice. And most engineers do at least 1 semester of internship. But neither is enough to scratch the surface.
"whose job duties could be as varied as designing stuff or designing other stuff"
I understand this sounds like it is all the same to you who has apparently no knowledge of anything outside of what you do... But designing that one stuff over designing that other stuff is completely different.
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Post by stl76 on May 22, 2011 21:42:11 GMT -5
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Post by stl76 on May 22, 2011 21:42:26 GMT -5
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on May 22, 2011 22:52:17 GMT -5
I understand this sounds like it is all the same to you who has apparently no knowledge of anything outside of what you do... But designing that one stuff over designing that other stuff is completely different. Geez lady, don't get your panties in a bunch. In the grand scheme of things designing something is closer to designing other somethings than say neurosurgery is to writing novels. So while neurosurgery and writing novels are in fact completely different, designing one thing over another thing is only somewhat different.
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gooddecisions
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Post by gooddecisions on May 23, 2011 0:03:05 GMT -5
OP, it's possible your education/career path influences your hiring decisions. It's also possible that as turnover happens in the job market, more hiring managers will have advanced degrees and because of their own experiences- will prefer the right experience combined with an advanced degree if the job applicants are abundant. Not saying it's right or wrong, but that's how it goes. It's definitely tough out there right now and there are plenty of applicants with lots of experience and advanced degrees; thus, the people who have only one or the other may get screened by human resources.
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Post by commentator on May 23, 2011 1:15:24 GMT -5
Dark Honor, since you don't seem to know that "every single young person in the country" isn't the same as 60% of the young people, maybe you shouldn't be bragging about not finishing college.
Just saying.
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Post by commentator on May 23, 2011 1:27:55 GMT -5
Sadly, college is becoming a bad idea. This is particularly so for men. 1. College tution and fees are outpacing inflation significantly. Why? One reason is that actual state support of so-called state supported colleges and universities has gone through the basement. Owing $100,000 for any undergraduate degree is insane but see response to your point 1. Well, sort of. There isn't really a "law of supply and demand." The supply curve of people with undergraduate degrees seems to have shifted. However, like most averages, this one is misleading. Some degrees lead to quite lucrative jobs - most business disciplines and most engineering fields as examples. You can't stop people from making bad decisions. Neither can I. <<snipped the rant>> Sexual harassment up to and including rape is by SOME young men in college is a fact. Figure out a better way to solve that problem instead of ranting about a solution you don't like. The more people who drink the koo ... oops, buy into the anti-education rhetoric that is beginning to dominate in this country, the more we will all suffer, educated or not.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on May 23, 2011 11:30:17 GMT -5
I'll just say the same thing I always say on these threads: I was doing fine without a college degree, but I'm doing even better with one. That's my personal bias.
I'm neutral toward the whole institution right now - not strongly pro OR con. I think college is a good idea for a lot of people, and it can certainly be a golden ticket out of a small-minded town where you're supposed to get married the second you graduate and start popping out children, but it can also be a ticket aboard a flaming train wreck if you don't plan for it carefully.
In short, it's not for everyone. I don't understand what's difficult to grasp about that concept. College is really great for some people, and really awful for other people.
I hope and expect that employers will start to see beyond educational qualifications in the near future. Someone who made a careful decision not to get into six-figure debt for a piece of paper is probably someone with enough savvy and critical thinking that you might want to consider hiring them anyhow.
Big, huge caveat in my mind: Not going to college out of laziness is very, very bad. I know a few people who had the chance to go to college for free, and didn't. For the life of me I can't understand why you would pass up an opportunity like that. And it can definitely set a bad tone for the remainder of your young adulthood.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on May 23, 2011 11:39:22 GMT -5
I hope and expect that employers will start to see beyond educational qualifications in the near future.
I hope so too because the only degree left is the PhD, everything in my field currently wants a master's. Employers will have to consider experience eventually because there is nothing higher than PhD unless they invent one.
If I have to have it, I have to have it, but what irks me is that they pay the same or LESS than what I make now with a bachelor's and five years experience.
I do think degrees are an easy way to sort, especially when it is all done by computers now. HR can just program in "master's" and the computer deletes anyone who doesn't have one.
I also think they are overrated in how much value they are. Unless someone has my transcripts (which were only asked for once since I graduated) you have no idea if I actually did hard work or if I barely passed. I could have easily padded my GPA by taking a whole bunch of BS classes while getting the minimum in my core degree classes.
So I may have no adequate knowledge whatsoever in my major and sadly I find that to be quite common when students come thru the labs.
But a computer can't tell that.
I think a shift is going to change once the economy improves and people start leaving. You can't pay someone with a graduate degree what I make with a bachelor's for very long.
In fact a statement just went out from our president that they have decided to lift the wage freeze because "We can't keep top people and not pay them competitive wages." DUH.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on May 23, 2011 11:40:23 GMT -5
It is simply too easy under this new standard, imposed by the Obama administration, for a man to be falsely accused of rape or harrassment and not only be tossed out of college but be branded for the rest of his life.
Oh good grief, not this again...
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Post by stl76 on May 23, 2011 11:57:07 GMT -5
"In short, it's not for everyone. I don't understand what's difficult to grasp about that concept. College is really great for some people, and really awful for other people. "
I definitely agree that college is not for everyone. But that does not make college a "bad idea".
"I hope and expect that employers will start to see beyond educational qualifications in the near future. Someone who made a careful decision not to get into six-figure debt for a piece of paper is probably someone with enough savvy and critical thinking that you might want to consider hiring them anyhow."
Really? A piece of paper? If it is only a piece of paper then why did you get it? I think most people who don't have college education don't do it NOT because they planned not to get into a six-figure debt; they don't get the college degree because they are lazy or don't think college is for them. So just because someone doesn't have a college degree doesnt automatically make them savvy or a critical thinker; they could be just plain old lazy or just dont think college is for them. I do agree about getting into six-figure debt, that is retarded, especially for a useless degree. But there are certain careers you are not going to be able to just pick up on the job. For example, would you really want your doctor missing that "piece of paper" and learn how to do his job all on the job (meaning on you)?
ETA: Let me also add that, yes there are a LOT of jobs you can learn just on the job even ones that traditionally employers look for that piece of paper such as accounting, engineering, etc. But that still does not make college a bad idea.
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kiskis
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Post by kiskis on May 23, 2011 12:07:37 GMT -5
Anyone who is actually smart enough to think about a true cost-benefit-analysis by high school graduation is intelligent enough to have won a number of scholarships.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on May 23, 2011 12:12:08 GMT -5
It is simply too easy under this new standard, imposed by the Obama administration, for a man to be falsely accused of rape or harrassment and not only be tossed out of college but be branded for the rest of his life.Oh good grief, not this again... Really?! I remember a couple of guys getting in trouble in college for making unwanted sexual advances, some getting kicked out, and in one case, the accuser was clearly a whackadoodle. George Bush 1 was president. Shall we blame it on him?
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swamp
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Post by swamp on May 23, 2011 12:13:37 GMT -5
Anyone who is actually smart enough to think about a true cost-benefit-analysis by high school graduation is intelligent enough to have won a number of scholarships. Intelligent doesn't necessarily mean they had the grades necessary to get a scholarship............
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on May 23, 2011 12:18:40 GMT -5
Anyone who is actually smart enough to think about a true cost-benefit-analysis by high school graduation is intelligent enough to have won a number of scholarships.
This is true. The fact that I didn't rack up a lot of debt in my first two years of college was pure luck.
I think most people who don't have college education don't do it NOT because they planned not to get into a six-figure debt; they don't get the college degree because they are lazy or don't think college is for them. So just because someone doesn't have a college degree doesnt automatically make them savvy or a critical thinker; they could be just plain old lazy or just dont think college is for them.
I agree. It's important to know why someone didn't get the degree. For many, it's an issue of motivation not the fact that they were savvy enough to avoid debt.
ETA: Let me also add that, yes there are a LOT of jobs you can learn just on the job even ones that traditionally employers look for that piece of paper such as accounting, engineering, etc. But that still does not make college a bad idea.
I never said college was a bad idea. I explicitly said I'm neutral toward it at the moment. I don't think it's inherently a good OR bad idea; there are too many variables.
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kiskis
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Post by kiskis on May 23, 2011 12:21:29 GMT -5
Anyone who is actually smart enough to think about a true cost-benefit-analysis by high school graduation is intelligent enough to have won a number of scholarships. Intelligent doesn't necessarily mean they had the grades necessary to get a scholarship............ Not all scholarships are grade-based. Many are based on community service, target industry, clubs your parents are involved in, etc. They just take initiative to find and submit applications. I don't remember where I read it, but there was an article a while back about how many scholarships go unawarded because of lack of applicants. I received a small amount of money in a need-based scholarship for the university I attended. The rest of my education was paid for by $1,000 from this scholarship and $2,000 from that scholarship. I applied to about 200 of them to begin with, and won about 10-15 each semester. It does take some time, but it pays better than a job at that age. Also, considering almost 50% of the public high school graduating classes in the two communities I've lived in are in the National Honor Society, it seems grade inflation has most kids getting pretty good grades.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on May 23, 2011 12:23:17 GMT -5
Intelligent doesn't necessarily mean they had the grades necessary to get a scholarship............ Not all scholarships are grade-based. Many are based on community service, target industry, clubs your parents are involved in, etc. They just take initiative to find and submit applications. I don't remember where I read it, but there was an article a while back about how many scholarships go unawarded because of lack of applicants. I received a small amount of money in a need-based scholarship for the university I attended. The rest of my education was paid for by $1,000 from this scholarship and $2,000 from that scholarship. I applied to about 200 of them to begin with, and won about 10-15 each semester. It does take some time, but it pays better than a job at that age. Also, considering almost 50% of the public high school graduating classes in the two communities I've lived in are in the National Honor Society, it seems grade inflation has most kids getting pretty good grades. My brother is brilliant. He got a small scholarship based on SAT scores, but that's it because other scholarships would have required him to do something and to get out of his own way.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2011 12:29:51 GMT -5
4. Mentioned in #2 but also touched up on #3: too many of the wrong degrees. Women's studies? Medieval literature? Uncountable numbers of psychology and sociolgy degrees? They are all but worthless in the real world; we have well educated Starbucks barristas but that's about it. In defense of the humanities... I have an undergraduate degree in women's studies. I pursued a double major - as everyone in my department was advised to do. I use the skills I learned in that program every day in my job. (I can't say anything from my biology coursework ever comes up anymore) I have been gainfully employed in my field for a decade.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on May 23, 2011 12:35:56 GMT -5
A lot of the merit based scholarships not only wanted a certain GPA but a certain class rank, a certain postion in class % etc. I had a friend lose one because people were dropping out of our class like flies (went from 500 freshman year to 210) and even though her GPA did not decline, nor did her rank, her position in class % dropped so she was rendered ineligiable.
They were contesting that but I don't know if she succeeded.
I honestly do not remember a ton for scholarships being just for grades when I was in high school.
When I transferred I did automatically get a $3k renewable scholarship for coming in with a 3.5 or over GPA.
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