Firebird
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Post by Firebird on May 23, 2011 15:41:56 GMT -5
I always feel like most of the college bashers have some type of inferiority complex and are more trying to convince themselves they’re just as smart and capable as college grads.
That could be flipped on ya - "I always feel like most of the people who bash college bashers have some type of inferiority complex and are more trying to convince themselves that they REALLY ARE SMARTER than people who chose not to go to college, even though the evidence says otherwise."
;D
Frankly, I've seen both attitudes from both camps, and they both suck.
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sil
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Post by sil on May 23, 2011 16:52:29 GMT -5
I always feel like most of the college bashers have some type of inferiority complex and are more trying to convince themselves they’re just as smart and capable as college grads.
That could be flipped on ya - "I always feel like most of the people who bash college bashers have some type of inferiority complex and are more trying to convince themselves that they REALLY ARE SMARTER than people who chose not to go to college, even though the evidence says otherwise." *********************************************************************************************************************************************************************************
I have my MBA, but I've worked with few peers that never got their undergrad degree but still out-earn me. These guys make me feel inferior, because I know there is NO WAY I would have made it as far as they did without having at least a Bachelor's degree. Still, I'd actually point to these guys as the exception that proves the rule that a college degree is a vital component to having a successful career in business. Can you get by without one? Sure - these guys did, and if you are as goal-driven and assertive as they are, you might also get away with not having a degree. But if you are not "exceptional" you either need that little piece of paper, or you're going to be left in the dust.
If the person who's interviewing you values their college degree (or any given credential) they are going to make a value judgement based upon whether or not you have the same.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on May 23, 2011 17:55:06 GMT -5
I really wasn't intending to bash college in general when I started this thread. I do think it's a bad idea to shoot for 60% college graduation rate if only 33% of future jobs are going to require a college degree though. It's not that I don't value education, but you don't have to pay tuition, room, board, and student fees to buy textbooks from Amazon; and you don't have to declare a major and take a bunch of unrelated degree requirements in order to take a few classes that will benefit you, or just classes that you find interesting. There's a big difference between encouraging education and pushing the majority of young kids to get a degree.
Education can be cheap or even free, but degrees are expensive. Most kids won't get enough financial support from their parents to pay for one. Only about 30% of adults in the US have a degree right now, and significant scholarships are already fairly rare. Obama is talking about basically doubling the number of college students in every single college and university in the country within the next 10 years. Can you imagine how much more competitive scholarships will be at that point? Do the endowments and whatnot that fund these scholarships have big enough coffers to double the amount of money they make available every year? In the third quarter of 2010 the total outstanding student loan debt surpassed credit card debt for the first time ever, and it's on track to hit a trillion dollars soon. That's with only 30% of us paying for degrees. Imagine how quickly that number will grow if we're pushing 60% of us to do so.
Are there even enough professors to handle that kind of growth? Classroom space? Doubling the size of every single university in the country is no small task. Or is the plan to push a bunch of people into paying through the nose for degrees from online universities?
I understand the sentiment behind the idea, as I do firmly believe that education is valuable, but education and a degree aren't the same thing. I'm all for a more educated populace, however I'm not so sure that pushing a majority of the populace to get a degree is really something that we should be making a national priority.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on May 23, 2011 18:03:43 GMT -5
As far as whether a college degree is worth it looking strictly at dollars and cents. There are numerous studies and polls out there (no, I shouldn’t have to find them for you). College grads make 1 million or more than someone with a H.S diploma, and unemployment of college grads is significantly less. That 1 million number was being thrown around a lot pre-recession, I'm not sure it's realistic anymore. Unemployment among college grads is lower, but mal-employment is pretty damn high. Many college graduates will settle for a job that doesn't require a degree, according to a study done by the Center for Labor Market Studies at Northeastern University.
The study estimates that currently, only 60 percent of college graduates are in jobs that require a college degree. The odds aren't likely to improve for the 1.7 million new grads this spring.
College grads who come up short on opportunities in their fields of study and end up taking a survival job, such as a bartender, server or other low-skill position, are referred to as "mal-employed." www.mlive.com/jobs/index.ssf/2011/05/40_percent_of_college_grads_end_up_settl.html May 3rd 2011 That's 40% of college grads who end up spending four years in school only to come out and get a job that they could have gotten right out of high school. A few years ago I used to hear that number quoted as 25%. I'm sure part of that is the recession, but I have to wonder how much it's grown over the last two decades, as more and more people get degrees.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on May 23, 2011 18:10:02 GMT -5
If the person who's interviewing you values their college degree (or any given credential) they are going to make a value judgement based upon whether or not you have the same.
Not necessarily. I value my college degree quite a bit, especially considering how difficult it was for me to get it, but I don't necessarily judge people without them. I know plenty of smart people who didn't go to college for a variety of reasons, and plenty of complete idiots who managed to squeak through and get that piece of paper. Plus a lot of people in the opposite categories (smart, college; stupid, no college). So it's really something I judge on a case-by-case basis.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2011 18:23:37 GMT -5
If the person who's interviewing you values their college degree (or any given credential) they are going to make a value judgement based upon whether or not you have the same. Not necessarily. I value my college degree quite a bit, especially considering how difficult it was for me to get it, but I don't necessarily judge people without them. I know plenty of smart people who didn't go to college for a variety of reasons, and plenty of complete idiots who managed to squeak through and get that piece of paper. Plus a lot of people in the opposite categories (smart, college; stupid, no college). So it's really something I judge on a case-by-case basis. Ah, the sanity of the middle ground. I think there are supervisors who look down on employees who have less education than them. I think there are also supervisors who are intimidated when their employees have more education than them. We can only hope that the majority fall in your camp, firebird.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on May 23, 2011 18:29:16 GMT -5
That's nice of you to say, Sarah. And your comment from earlier made me Time to karmalize...
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tskeeter
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Post by tskeeter on May 23, 2011 18:34:09 GMT -5
I think the idea of education for the sake of education has gotten a bit out of hand.
I have a nephew who is not academically inclined. He wanted to enter the culinary program at what used to be the area technical school. Since the school is now the "technical college", a graduate of the culinary program (without an AA designation) would have to take elective courses which could include pre-algebra, sociology, microeconomics, or ethics. All this is required to provide the skills necessary to be a line cook. Unfortunately, the kid doesn't have the math skills necessary to fry fish, decorate cakes, or understand food service sanitation practices such as washing your hands, so he couldn't get into the program.
This past weekend I met a niece's boyfriend. He just completed an AA in HVAC from a school 800 miles from the "technical college" that the nephew attempted to get into. The distance between the schools and the fact that both trade schools are offering AA degrees leads me to assume that trade schools across the country are adopting the training in the trades and liberal arts formula for post secondary education.
Now maybe I'm a bit parochial about education, but I really don't think that the guy who fixes my car needs to be able to explain the elasticity of supply and demand before he is allowed to replace the timing belt or brake pads on my car. I'm really more concerned that he understand automotive systems and know which end of the wrench to hang on to.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2011 18:34:21 GMT -5
Thanks - back atcha (please don't tell anyone on the ask vs. axe thread that I just typed "atcha")
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2011 18:40:53 GMT -5
Now maybe I'm a bit parochial about education, but I really don't think that the guy who fixes my car needs to be able to explain the elasticity of supply and demand before he is allowed to replace the timing belt or brake pads on my car. I'm really more concerned that he understand automotive systems and know which end of the wrench to hang on to. No, but if he was going to hang out a shingle as a mechanic, he would need some basic business skills to make a go of it. He would need to be able to keep good accounting logs. He would need to be able to set prices based on the parts, his labor and the overhead to keep the shop running. Even if someone else does his books for him, he needs to understand what they are telling him and make sure he isn't getting cheated. I'm not saying he needs an MBA, but a lot of people pursue technical jobs with the intent of being their own boss/a small business owner. The add-on classes with the technical degree may not make him better at fixing your car, but it may help him stay in business to fix your car for years to come.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on May 23, 2011 19:10:39 GMT -5
I wish they would add on 10 or so business classes to lawyer and doctors (and dentists.) Some of those people are so smart, but can't identify a good business practice to save their lives. They manage on their gut instinct - all the way to bankruptcy. Sheesh, you might be skilled at brain surgery, but please, take my advice about billling practices and scheduling employees, etc.
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Post by stl76 on May 23, 2011 19:30:46 GMT -5
"Blame laziness if you want, but working for a living is a way bigger drag than partying for a few years while getting a fluff degree. "
I didn't blame laziness alone. I said either laziness or because college isn't for them. I would definitely side with working rather than getting a "fluff" degree. I don't think every college degree is worth going to college for. I have a BS in mech engineering, which I definitely wouldnt consider a fluff degree but I also have an MBA that I definitely consider fluff. I didn't learn anything in business school that I hadn't already learned during my undergrad or working for the couple years I did before getting the MBA.
"Not all of us get a blank check from mom and dad every semester for tuition, and shockingly there are still plenty of youngish people who want to avoid student loan debt like the plague."
I didnt get a blank check either. I had a full scholarship for undergrad and my employer paid for my MBA. Putting off college until you know what you want to study or you are able to afford it is not the same as "why college might be a bad idea".
I went to a well known engineering university in the midwest area (well known to midwest for engineering). It was in a small town, definitely NOT a party school but I did do my share of partying but I also did graduate. I honestly had a blast in college (despite being in a tiny little town). It is a time I wouldn't change for anything. Not going to college was not an option that even occurred to me EVER. Both of my parents are architects (and most of my family is college educated) and somewhere along the line somehow it was built in to me and my sister that we were going to college. We never even had a discussion of whether or not we are going to college, it was just to where and for what degree. But then again I am not originally from the US so that might have something to do with my thinking.
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qofcc
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Post by qofcc on May 23, 2011 19:32:43 GMT -5
I think business classes should be required at the high school level. I can't think of anyone who couldn't benefit from learning about real world business practices.
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Post by stl76 on May 23, 2011 19:33:35 GMT -5
This message has been deleted.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on May 23, 2011 19:37:51 GMT -5
Not going to college was not an option that even occurred to me EVER. Both of my parents are architects (and most of my family is college educated) and somewhere along the line somehow it was built in to me and my sister that we were going to college. We never even had a discussion of whether or not we are going to college, it was just to where and for what degree. But then again I am not originally from the US so that might have something to do with my thinking.
My parents drilled this into me too. It doesn't always stick.
I did everything I could to make college work the first time. It simply didn't. And yes, I eventually finished but it wasn't because of parental pressure. By the time I re-applied to my old school, my parents had more or less accepted that I was never going back.
And while I don't intend to drill "COLLEGE OR MCDONALDS" into my kids, I do intend to make sure that if they're not planning on college, they have an alternate plan in place. 18 year olds need to be working toward something. It's a bad time in your life to atrophy.
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Post by stl76 on May 23, 2011 19:44:49 GMT -5
"I did everything I could to make college work the first time. It simply didn't. And yes, I eventually finished but it wasn't because of parental pressure. By the time I re-applied to my old school, my parents had more or less accepted that I was never going back. "
I didn't go to college because of parental pressure. I just didn't see not going as an option. I definitely understand that college isnt for everyone, sometimes it might take longer for one reason or another or whatever else the reason is. I am simply saying I don't agree with the original post and the title of this thread. There are plenty of very successful people who don't have college or even high school degrees but like somebody else pointed out, these are exceptions. And in this competitive economy, any extra qualifications one has will only help them.
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formerexpat
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Post by formerexpat on May 23, 2011 19:52:19 GMT -5
Unemployment for the over 25 crowd with a bachelors is under 5%. I'm sure those struggling without education wish they had one right about now.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on May 23, 2011 20:51:37 GMT -5
"Is this still true? I know that figure used to be cited a lot in the 80s and 90s. I wouldn't be surprised if it was no longer the case. The people I know who have graduated recently have mostly had a REALLY hard time finding adequate jobs at all, never mind in their preferred field. " www.online-stock-trading-guide.com/chart-of-the-day-02072011-unemployment-rate-by-educational-attainment.htmlThis article is from 2/7/2011, is that recent enough for you? You can look at the chart at the bottem of the article. The unemployment rate for someone with a bachelor's degree or higher is 4.2%, while the unemployment rate for someone who didn't finish high school is more than three times higher at 14.2%. Looking at the chart, those who completed high school have more than twice the unemployment rate of those with a bachelor's degree or higher.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on May 23, 2011 20:54:18 GMT -5
"guys make me feel inferior, because I know there is NO WAY I would have made it as far as they did without having at least a Bachelor's degree."
Sure, you can point out exceptions to the statistics all day. Bill Gates never even finished college, but even he admits that you couldn't get very far in Mircrosoft without the degree. The exceptions don't change the fact that college grads earn more on average and enjoy lower unemployment rates.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on May 23, 2011 20:56:12 GMT -5
I agree with you Dark, I don't think increasing the number of college graduates by 60% is realistic or desirable.
But I'd rather be "mal employed" with a degree than unemployed without one.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on May 24, 2011 1:44:10 GMT -5
But I'd rather be "mal employed" with a degree than unemployed without one. Depends on how much you owe in student loans. Working on and off as a Starbucks barista is a lot easier to get by on without $500+ student loan payments every month. Remember, there's no way to get rid of those things. And in this competitive economy, any extra qualifications one has will only help them. Tell that to all the people who can't even get a job at McDonalds because they're overqualified.
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CPWnyc
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Post by CPWnyc on May 24, 2011 7:43:13 GMT -5
Not going to college was not an option that even occurred to me EVER. Both of my parents are architects (and most of my family is college educated) and somewhere along the line somehow it was built in to me and my sister that we were going to college. We never even had a discussion of whether or not we are going to college, it was just to where and for what degree. But then again I am not originally from the US so that might have something to do with my thinking. [/quote][/b]
I totally agreed. As an immigrant, education was extremely important to us. It is central to our culture. Everyone is expected to get a college education. Parents expect their kids to be doctors/lawyers/CPAs, engineers, etc. In my family, it wasn't just going to any college, it had to be the elite universities. It was ingrained in us that we excel in school. Everyone in my family of 6 has a 4 yr college degree. 5 out of 6 have graduate professional degrees from elite/ivy league schools.
I know/agree that college education is not for everyone but if it weren't for my education, I don't know where I would be today. My family came to the US with <$200. We were poor immigrants but determined to succeed. For us and I am sure a lot of immigrants, education is the ticket to the American dream. College education definitely helped my family climb the social/economic ladder. It helped me and my family achieve the American dream...have successful careers, own homes, and become the millionaires.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on May 24, 2011 8:31:10 GMT -5
"Tell that to all the people who can't even get a job at McDonalds because they're overqualified."
Why are you so convinced there's an unemployment epidemic among the well educated? I've posted evidence to the contrary but you keep harping on this.
"Remember, there's no way to get rid of those things."
You can get rid of your student loans. My Dad got rid of his, I'll be rid of mine soon. I could pay them all off right now but the interest rate is so low I hardly see the point.
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Post by Savoir Faire-Demogague in NJ on May 24, 2011 8:51:44 GMT -5
All this is required to provide the skills necessary to be a line cook. Unfortunately, the kid doesn't have the math skills necessary to fry fish, decorate cakes, or understand food service sanitation practices such as washing your hands, so he couldn't get into the program.
So he will be unable to place a strip steak under a broiler for 5 minutes on each side because he cannot count. He'd never make it as a baker either. Those complex recipes requiring exact measurements of salt, baking powder, baking soda, flour, liquid, etc., will be too complicated to comprehend.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 24, 2011 9:41:19 GMT -5
When DH first went back to school he felt like there wasn't much they could teach him. A lot of the guys he'd seen with IT degrees and no practical experience hadn't impressed him. The first couple of years were hard but now he feels like he's learned a lot. He's almost completed his business degree and now he has a much better sense of what his previous employers were trying to accomplish.
thyme - DH is writing plans for two businesses that are opening up. I can't believe the conversations he has with about pay, taxes and breaks. Even when he tells them they are legally obligated to provide meal breaks the owners are like, so what?
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Post by Savoir Faire-Demogague in NJ on May 24, 2011 9:48:04 GMT -5
I can't believe the conversations he has with about pay, taxes and breaks. Even when he tells them they are legally obligated to provide meal breaks the owners are like, so what?
That is understandable. Anyone who owns and operates their own business, usually do not take lunch breaks. They also work 4-8 hours extra each day and on weekends without pay.
Everyone on these forums who are business owners understand this.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 24, 2011 9:53:01 GMT -5
I understand the business owners not taking a lunch break. I don't understand how they think they can get away without giving them to their employees.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on May 24, 2011 10:26:44 GMT -5
You can look at the chart at the bottem of the article. The unemployment rate for someone with a bachelor's degree or higher is 4.2%, while the unemployment rate for someone who didn't finish high school is more than three times higher at 14.2%. Looking at the chart, those who completed high school have more than twice the unemployment rate of those with a bachelor's degree or higher.
I wasn't trying to show you up, I was asking. Thanks for the link.
I was speaking anecdotally. My friends who have graduated recently are having trouble finding jobs, unless they already had experience in their field. Apparently that's not true for everyone, which is fine.
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Post by Savoir Faire-Demogague in NJ on May 24, 2011 10:28:52 GMT -5
I was speaking anecdotally. My friends who have graduated recently are having trouble finding jobs, unless they already had experience in their field. Apparently that's not true for everyone, which is fine.
Well, duh... the job market is brutal for new grads. Imagine if they had no education and were working minimum wage jobs.
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Post by Savoir Faire-Demogague in NJ on May 24, 2011 10:30:22 GMT -5
I understand the business owners not taking a lunch break. I don't understand how they think they can get away without giving them to their employees.
Customers needing help, attention, support, etc. Small business, and I mean very small business is quite different from larger enterprises. I am not saying it is right or it is wrong. It just is.
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