Why college might be a bad idea...

[Firebird]

Well, duh... the job market is brutal for new grads. Imagine if they had no education and were working minimum wage jobs.

Which is the only point I was trying to make, incidentally. I'm glad to hear it gets better once you're over the hump but that's not much comfort if, as Dark said, you have student loans to pay and you can only find a job at Starbucks. Good luck moving out of your parents' house.

Furthermore, my DF has "no education," and he's not working a minimum wage job. He got a job within six weeks of moving to the Bay Area and is currently making $22/hour. Within a year or two, that will probably double if he follows the standard career path of his industry.

So "no education" is not the death sentence some of you seem to think it is. All that time he wasn't in school, he was earning the work experience that allows him now to manage a team of people, some of whom are twice or thrice his age.

[Savoir Faire-Demogague in NJ]

My DF has "no education," and he's not working a minimum wage job. He got a job within six weeks of moving to the Bay Area and is currently making $22/hour. Within a year or two, that will probably double.

$22 per hour is garbage.

So "no education" is not the death sentence some of you seem to think it is. All that time he wasn't in school, he was earning the work experience that allows him now to manage a team of people, some of whom are twice or thrice his age.

Having an education give you options. And I use education very broadly to include trades. While your DF will get his experience, he will be tied to his company, as those who got their degrees get the experience, they will be more marketable.

[swamp]

::$22 per hour is garbage.::

Depends on where you live. Where I live, it's significantly higher than the average wage

[Savoir Faire-Demogague in NJ]

Depends on where you live. Where I live, it's significantly higher than the average wage

If you read the post, the poster said the Bay Area.

[swamp]

May 24, 2011 10:45:22 GMT -5 Savoir Faire-Demogague in NJ said:

Depends on where you live. Where I live, it's significantly higher than the average wage

If you read the post, the poster said the Bay Area.

I guess it's a horrible wage for the Bay area, but I wouldnt' really know...........

[Savoir Faire-Demogague in NJ]

Yeah, CA all around is insane. I have a friend living in northern CA, who tells me the COL is pretty bad. She said she makes very good money so it it not that much of an issue.

[Firebird]

$22 per hour is garbage.

Perhaps you missed the part about how his salary should double (or even triple) within a couple of years?

While your DF will get his experience, he will be tied to his company, as those who got their degrees get the experience, they will be more marketable.

Or maybe the part where he got a job in a brand new area where he had no contacts within six weeks? Back in Washington he was making close to $60k. It takes time to work up to that level, but I'd say he's fairly marketable.

[Firebird]

I guess it's a horrible wage for the Bay area, but I wouldnt' really know...........

I wouldn't call $42k + bonus + overtime a "horrible wage" anywhere in the United States. He brings home $650 per week with no overtime. (With overtime and/or quarterly bonuses, it's significantly more - that's his base pay, remember.)

It's enough for us to live on - just barely, but it is. Together we gross $110k not including bonuses or overtime so we're doing okay.

And none of this is even remotely related to the point I was trying to make. SF, you said "imagine if you had no education and were working a minimum wage job," and I pointed out that with "no education" DF is making more than double San Francisco's minimum wage of $9.75/hr. So saying it's a "garbage" wage is kind of beside the point. Learn to read.

[swamp]

I don't think it's horrible per se. I don't know. I've heard about how expensive the Bay Area is, but I've never been there, so I don't know how far $42k will go there.

Where I live, $42k is a middle class lifestyle for a family of 4.

[Firebird]

I don't think it's horrible per se. I don't know. I've heard about how expensive the Bay Area is, but I've never been there, so I don't know how far $42k will go there.

It would currently pay for our rent ($1,100), debt payments ($1,050 - yes, I know, we're working on it) and most of our remaining bills, all of them if we were living tightly (no eating out whatsoever, careful gas consumption).

If we were debt free (which we will be in a year or so) it would be plenty, and we'd be sitting pretty on his salary alone.

Anyway, as I was saying, it's not quite enough to live on comfortably at the moment but it's well above minimum wage.

[swamp]

It's nice to see a post about how $42k is enough to live on, instead of a whine about how hard it is. Kudos for being a "glass half full" person.

[illinicheme]

It's possible to survive and even have a little fun in the Bay Area on $45k. (I did just fine in the Bay Area in grad school at $23k.) However, it's very difficult to save for the future or raise a family on $45k in this area. And it will be nearly impossible to purchase real estate.

[Firebird]

It's nice to see a post about how $42k is enough to live on, instead of a whine about how hard it is. Kudos for being a "glass half full" person. [image]

Aw, thanks! $40k, coincidentally, is my own "panic number" - the lowest salary I would currently feel comfortable accepting. That's what I made my first full calendar year in NYC and I saved almost half of it - so I feel like I could do that again if I really had to, but I wouldn't feel great about trying to do it on less, especially since my expenses have risen.

It's much easier on $110k, I freely admit that. We're having kind of a crappy month but when we're back on track, we'll be saving DF's entire salary every month - and that won't include retirement contributions for either of us.

It's possible to survive and even have a little fun in the Bay Area on $45k. (I did just fine in the Bay Area in grad school at $23k.) However, it's very difficult to save for the future or raise a family on $45k in this area. And it will be nearly impossible to purchase real estate.

Which is why we're not buying a house here. Renting is perfectly fine until we're ready to move to Colorado (hopefully within five years).

[qofcc]

Not going to college was not an option that even occurred to me EVER. Both of my parents are architects (and most of my family is college educated) and somewhere along the line somehow it was built in to me and my sister that we were going to college. We never even had a discussion of whether or not we are going to college, it was just to where and for what degree.

You know, it hadn't occurred to me either. My mom has a PhD and my dad has a useless History/Psychology/Sociology BS from a prestigious private university. I'd had my fill of sitting in a classroom by the time HS was over and I was ready to go out and start getting paid for working, but I dutifully went off to college like my parents expected me to. It wasn't until I was there for a couple of months that I started to wonder what the hell I'd gotten myself into.

Going to college because your parents expect you to or all your friends are going is not a good enough reason. Going to college should be part of a well thought out plan to maximize your earnings at a career. If you want to explore new horizons and find yourself, go to the library or join the peace corps. This is the part about increasing the college graduation rate to 60% that is just not well thought out. IMHO, the goal should be something like having 60% of the workforce trained for well paying in demand careers. That training would probably include college in most cases, but college is not a goal in and of itself, it's just a tool to get a job.

[Firebird]

Qofcc, I think you might actually be me. I could have written your post word for word. Well said.

[Sum Dum Gai]

Why are you so convinced there's an unemployment epidemic among the well educated? I've posted evidence to the contrary but you keep harping on this.

OK, so there's no unemployment epidemic, but there's a HUGE mal-employment epidemic. 40% of those holding a college degree are working as waitresses at Denny's, baristas at Starbucks, and other jobs that don't require their degree at all. They spent four years in school, tens of thousands of dollars (some of them low six figures), or took on that much debt, and they're competing for jobs with welfare queens, high school drop outs, etc.

College is supposed to be this sure fire way to get out of poverty, and out of competition with the dregs of society. Now it's only a 60/40 chance. I think prospective students should be told that before they decide to take on five or six figures of debt.

I also think we as a society should think about that before we encourage everyone to go to college.

[stl76]

"College is supposed to be this sure fire way to get out of poverty, and out of competition with the dregs of society."

College education is only a part of it. Just because you have a degree doesnt mean you will do well. You also have to try. Yes there is a lot of competition even in a good job market. You cannot expect your diploma to do all the work for you. Diploma is only a part of your way in. Going back to your comment about being overqualified to work at even McDonalds. I wasnt suggesting getting a PhD for someone who does not want to do research or teaching. I just meant extra qualifications as in for example a certificate relating to your current or potential job. For me it was getting my professional engineer's license. I believe you had mentioned PMP certification? I feel pretty secure at my position even though there are people who have been laid off/put on part time. But if for some reason I was let go, I feel confident that I can find a job easier than some other people with the same education because I try.

[Firebird]

Yes there is a lot of competition even in a good job market. You cannot expect your diploma to do all the work for you. Diploma is only a part of your way in.

Stl, I basically agree with this but there are an awful lot of new grads out there that seem to be trying pretty hard and not getting anywhere.

You have to make yourself competitive in ways besides a degree, yes, absolutely. Zero argument there. But effort isn't a magic bullet either. A good, high-paying career is a result of a lot of different things. In my case, I would say the formula is about 60% good start (I have some marketable raw skills, I come from a college background, I was learning job skills like interviewing and resume building at 15, and I started working soon after that, stuff like that), 25% hard work/effort, 10% being in the right place at the right time, and 5% miscellaneous luck.

I actually wish effort was a higher percentage for me, but if I'm being honest, I attribute a healthy majority of my success to getting the right tools handed to me at an early age.

That's just me, mind you. Other people will have different formulas.

[stl76]

Firebird, I'd say being at the right place at the right time in the job market is higher than 10%.
I am not supporting getting a college education blindly. I dont think any college education is better than none. I think if you dont go for a marketable college education, you will have difficulty justifying the time/money spent on the degree.

[Firebird]

You could count some of my 60% and all of my extra 5% toward being in the right place at the right time if you like ;D

[Phoenix84]

"So "no education" is not the death sentence some of you seem to think it is. All that time he wasn't in school, he was earning the work experience that allows him now to manage a team of people, some of whom are twice or thrice his age."

There is no surefire way to be okay financially. I wasn't claiming that a degree is an automatic golden ticket to a six figure income, nor was I saying that not getting a degree was a one way ticket to poverty. There's far more factors as play that determine if one is a "success" than just a degree. As I said before, some degree holders will live a life of poverty while people with little and no education will be fabulously wealthy, BUT that's not the norm and not reason to discourage people from getting degrees.

You can't ignore the averages. What I'm taking issue with is the assertion that some are making that a degree isn't useful or doesn't help people in their career, when the statistics show that it (usually) very clearly does.

As far as the new grads goes, it can be brutal for new grads, but you have to take a long view. If you have two 22 year olds, one has experience managing people and the other has a degree, many would be inclined to get the non degreed individual. BUT what about 20 years later. You have someone with a degree with solid work experience competing with someone without a degree with solid work experience, most are going to choose the degreed individual. Things may be tough for new Grads starting out, but new grads won't remain new grads forever. They will get experience and typically surpass their non degreed counterparts.

For example, my first job out of college was as a technician trainee making just over 30k/year at a shipyard. I made just BENEATH what a first year apprentice in the trades (electrician, pipefitter ect). You could have pointed at me and said "you see? A degree didn't help, you could have not taken on student debt and made more money." But as time progressed I got more and better raises than they did. They topped out at 45k and I doubled my salary with experience.

[Deleted]

phenoix:

[Sum Dum Gai]

College education is only a part of it. Just because you have a degree doesn't mean you will do well.

I agree with that 100%. I'm not sure it's the message we send to our young people though. I'm pretty sure they hear things like, college is a requirement, people without a degree work minimum wage jobs, etc.

I have no problem with a college degree being part of the plan, but the important part is having a plan in the first place. If you don't know why you're in college, how you plan to apply what you're learning, or even what industry you're going to be most qualified for after graduation, you could be wasting a lot of time and money in college.

[Firebird]

You can't ignore the averages. What I'm taking issue with is the assertion that some are making that a degree isn't useful or doesn't help people in their career, when the statistics show that it (usually) very clearly does.

Yes and no. I don't disagree that on average, a college degree helps earning power. I don't think that's debatable. However, I think it's totally okay to ignore the averages as long as you have a good reason to believe that you will be marketable some other way.

I've contended all along that you can't go to college without a plan and expect it to work - neither can you skip college without a plan and expect it to work. Things don't just magically work out. But if you happen to be brilliant, or gifted, or you have exceptional work experience or you're the hardest worker or the most self-disciplined person you know, and you're prepared to take the scenic route to success, I think that skipping college can be fine.

I'm not arguing the averages primarily because I know so many people for whom the averages mean next to nothing. They're different in some way, so they need different plans.

[Deleted]

May 24, 2011 11:55:31 GMT -5 qofcc said:

If you want to explore new horizons and find yourself, go to the library or join the peace corps.

Actually, most Peace Corps placements require a bachelor's degree.

[Firebird]

BUT what about 20 years later. You have someone with a degree with solid work experience competing with someone without a degree with solid work experience, most are going to choose the degreed individual. Things may be tough for new Grads starting out, but new grads won't remain new grads forever. They will get experience and typically surpass their non degreed counterparts.

Also, let's not discount the power of certain certifications to supplement work experience. Project management is an outstanding example of this - you can't get any except the very beginning certification (which I have, and which is basically worthless except to signify an interest in the field to prospective employers). The higher levels of PMP certification require hundreds or thousands of hours of actual project management experience.

So you could conceivably work for 15 years doing project management, quickly get a cert or two under your belt, and instantly become more employable in that field - all without ever going to college.

[Firebird]

Actually, most Peace Corps placements require a bachelor's degree.

If not higher! Some posts require a master's! It's a pain in the ass. My sister wanted to join up but even as a soon-to-be-graduate, she was told that there would be at least a two year wait. That was cut in half or more if you had a master's. WTF?

[Firebird]

I have no problem with a college degree being part of the plan, but the important part is having a plan in the first place. If you don't know why you're in college, how you plan to apply what you're learning, or even what industry you're going to be most qualified for after graduation, you could be wasting a lot of time and money in college.

Yup, this is what I've been saying all along.

Back when our parents were going to school, it was usually pretty much okay to go to college and piss away those four years doing whatever and studying whatever, because the degree itself held a lot more weight than it does now. People gave you a lot of kudos just because you went.

It's not that way anymore. College can and does suck time and money out of a lot of people who still think it's okay to party every weekend and graduate in basket weaving then instantly get a job earning $20k more than they would have if they had spent those four years working.

[Deleted]

So you could conceivably work for 15 years doing project management, quickly get a cert or two under your belt, and instantly become more employable in that field - all without ever going to college.

Or you could be like DH's coworker who graduated with a degree in something and was hired immediately as a project manager making a 120k. I think she was around 25 at the time.

DH saw everyone's paychecks. I think that was a huge motivator in going back to college.

[Firebird]

Or you could be like DH's coworker who graduated with a degree in something and was hired immediately as a project manager making a 120k. I think she was around 25 at the time.



Seriously??! What was her degree in?! How did she do that? I wanted nothing more in the world when I finished college than to immediately become a project manager. Best I could do was get that beginning certificate and hope to land somewhere I could get experience. All the project management jobs I saw required at least five years of experience, most of them four times that.