Are You the Same Person?

[laterbloomer]

In Canada we did vaccines AND masks AND lockdowns AND restricted gatherings AND we have a lower population density. Which one is responsible for our lower infection rates? Also we had that big truckers protest jam packed with antivaxxers. They all hung out together for about a month unmasked and unvaccinated and we did not have an outbreak. Why not. My area has a high vaccination rate and we currently have more infections and more deaths than we had a year ago at this time. But the lockdowns and vaccination passports are no longer mandated. We are told this is all at the recommendation of the scientists. How does that work? Don't tell me to ignore things I can see for myself and just accept everything you say as "fact". I'm not a Trumper. A fact is that Canada has less infections and deaths than the US. The interpretation of why that is so is not a known fact yet.

[pulmonarymd]

Here is data on vaccines and masks. The mask study is one which policy was based on:


www.healthsystemtracker.org/brief/covid19-and-other-leading-causes-of-death-in-the-us/#COVID-19%20deaths%20among%20unvaccinated%20adults%20that%20likely%20could%20have%20been%20prevented%20with%20vaccinations,%20June%202021-March%202022


www.advisory.com/daily-briefing/2022/01/28/vaccines-impact


hartfordhospital.org/services/digestive-health/news/news-detail?articleid=27691


med.stanford.edu/news/all-news/2021/09/surgical-masks-covid-19.html

The Monday morning quartebacking here is amazing. Go back to March of 2020 and tell us how we should handle the outbreak of a novel deadly disease to save lives. The study of our response and the effectiveness of our treatments will take years to ascertain. I guess you all know better than us. Wish I could have asked all of you how to treat this.

[scgal]

Apr 30, 2022 23:17:59 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

Apr 30, 2022 12:42:17 GMT -5 scgal said:

some in my household is vaxxed some not none care about the other. No I don't care if the plumber is vaxxed. He could be vaxxed and still give it to me. 

Drunk driving is against the law covid vaccination is not. 

it is an analogy.  i think it is a fairly good one at several levels.  which makes me question whether it SHOULD BE legal to be unvaccinated.  if a person would face fines or imprisonment if not vaccinated, that might have saved half a million lives in the US.  seatbelt laws only save about 15k/year, yet very few people even bother to argue about them.  that, despite the fact that you generally won't kill ANOTHER person by not wearing your seatbelt.  in that sense, it makes far MORE sense to have a vaccination law than a seatbelt law.  the amount of societal harm is far greater being unvaccinated.

Agreed. I also think if people don't like it then they can take it court and let it take out there. Seatbelt ehhh I wear it, I don't criticise people who don't their choice their ticket their life

[djAdvocate]

May 1, 2022 7:14:02 GMT -5 scgal said:

Apr 30, 2022 23:17:59 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

it is an analogy.  i think it is a fairly good one at several levels.  which makes me question whether it SHOULD BE legal to be unvaccinated.  if a person would face fines or imprisonment if not vaccinated, that might have saved half a million lives in the US.  seatbelt laws only save about 15k/year, yet very few people even bother to argue about them.  that, despite the fact that you generally won't kill ANOTHER person by not wearing your seatbelt.  in that sense, it makes far MORE sense to have a vaccination law than a seatbelt law.  the amount of societal harm is far greater being unvaccinated.

Agreed. I also think if people don't like it then they can take it court and let it take out there. Seatbelt ehhh I wear it, I don't criticise people who don't their choice their ticket their life

for the record i break laws all the time that i consider to be overly oppressive.  i was not actually making a case for vaccine laws.  i was just observing that we have laws for far more innocuous behavior that we never challenge.

[djAdvocate]

Apr 30, 2022 23:41:03 GMT -5 laterbloomer said:

In Canada we did vaccines AND masks AND lockdowns AND restricted gatherings AND we have a lower population density. Which one is responsible for our lower infection rates? Also we had that big truckers protest jam packed with antivaxxers. They all hung out together for about a month unmasked and unvaccinated and we did not have an outbreak. Why not. My area has a high vaccination rate and we currently have more infections and more deaths than we had a year ago at this time. But the lockdowns and vaccination passports are no longer mandated. We are told this is all at the recommendation of the scientists. How does that work? Don't tell me to ignore things I can see for myself and just accept everything you say as "fact". I'm not a Trumper. A fact is that Canada has less infections and deaths than the US. The interpretation of why that is so is not a known fact yet.

Since this virus broke out, i have been keeping a scorecard based on a logarithmic curve.  the worst death rate gets the lowest score.  half that death rate is the break point for D grade.  half that for C grade.  here is what the table shows today (country, death rate per million)

Peru 6300 F
USA 3050 D- (we were more solidly in the D category before Omicron)
Namibia 1535 D+
World Average 803 C
Sri Lanka 765 C+
Dominican Republic 386 B+
New Zealand 141 A

Canada is at 1000.  That is 1/3 the death rate of the US.  If the US had your death rate, we would have saved more lives than were lost in EITHER the Civil War OR the Spanish Flu.

[djAdvocate]

as to your question in the middle, Omicron is 3x as infectious and 1/3 as deadly, so the death rate SHOULD BE about the same, all other factors considered.  your relaxed measures might be why your death rate is higher than last year.  i would suggest masking up.  

[laterbloomer]

May 1, 2022 9:27:46 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

as to your question in the middle, Omicron is 3x as infectious and 1/3 as deadly, so the death rate SHOULD BE about the same, all other factors considered.  your relaxed measures might be why your death rate is higher than last year.  i would suggest masking up.  

You might be right. My problem is that it isn't proven yet and too many people carry on as if it is. And we don't know the long term effects of Covid vaccines because they have not been around long term yet.
And the silence around the fact that the trucker's convoy did not result in an outbreak drives me crazy. If everything we have been told is fact that should have resulted in hundreds of deaths.

[djAdvocate]

May 1, 2022 10:39:51 GMT -5 laterbloomer said:

May 1, 2022 9:27:46 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

as to your question in the middle, Omicron is 3x as infectious and 1/3 as deadly, so the death rate SHOULD BE about the same, all other factors considered.  your relaxed measures might be why your death rate is higher than last year.  i would suggest masking up.  

You might be right. My problem is that it isn't proven yet and too many people carry on as if it is. And we don't know the long term effects of Covid vaccines because they have not been around long term yet.
And the silence around the fact that the trucker's convoy did not result in an outbreak drives me crazy. If everything we have been told is fact that should have resulted in hundreds of deaths.

i feel the same way about masks as i do about burning wood in my fireplace.

scientists believe that burning wood in my fireplace makes unhealthy air for my fellow humans and contributes to greenhouse gasses.  whether it is proven absolutely, beyond any doubt is not really that important.  what is important is THIS:

1) that it is reasonably certain and
2) that EVEN IF IT WERE NOT proven, it won't hurt.

my biggest objection to the anti-mask community is that even in the absence of absolute proof, HOW HARD IS IT?  by NOT wearing a mask, you are basically saying that the science is less important than your "freedom".  it is a rather selfish view of freedom that one would put others at risk rather than taking what is AT WORST a slight inconvenience.  the selfishness, disrespect and lack of empathy are in plane sight, fortunately.  the anti-maskers are saying to me that they care MORE about their "independence" than my health.  that is a really selfish and immoral place to stand, imo.

[Opti]

May 1, 2022 10:39:51 GMT -5 laterbloomer said:

May 1, 2022 9:27:46 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

as to your question in the middle, Omicron is 3x as infectious and 1/3 as deadly, so the death rate SHOULD BE about the same, all other factors considered.  your relaxed measures might be why your death rate is higher than last year.  i would suggest masking up.  

You might be right. My problem is that it isn't proven yet and too many people carry on as if it is. And we don't know the long term effects of Covid vaccines because they have not been around long term yet.
And the silence around the fact that the trucker's convoy did not result in an outbreak drives me crazy. If everything we have been told is fact that should have resulted in hundreds of deaths.

Why do you think it should have resulted in that many deaths? Because of the weather I would expect most of them spent most of the time in their vehicles not hanging out outside.


nationalpost.com/news/canada/theres-a-lot-of-trucks-in-freedom-convoy-2022-but-not-nearly-50000

Nevertheless, Ontario law enforcement has begun counting some of the convoys in a bid to give Ottawa Police a sense of what they’ll have to face over the weekend. The results thus far have participants in the hundreds, not the tens of thousands.



A convoy passing through Thunder Bay, Ont. on Thursday contained just 113 trucks and 276 private cars, according to a count by the Ontario Provincial Police.



When one of the bigger convoys passed through Kingston, Ont., the Kingston Police counted 17 full tractor trailers and 104 tractors without trailers. When adding in passenger vehicles and RVs, the convoy’s total size was 551 vehicles.



Thus far, Ottawa Police is expecting that the total number of Freedom Convoy vehicles will top out at between 1,000 and 2,000.

[djAdvocate]

later: please don't take any of that personally.  i think you are a reasonable person, and agnostic on the subject.

[djAdvocate]

here is a study on the efficacy of masking.  it reduces infection and fatality by at least 20%.

the degree to which masks are NOT effective probably has as much to do with the method and type of mask used, and the lack of continual use, as much as it does any other variable:


www.healthaffairs.org/doi/10.1377/hlthaff.2021.01072#:~:text=This%20matched%20analysis%2C%20during%20a,of%20the%20COVID%2D19%20pandemic.

[laterbloomer]

May 1, 2022 10:48:36 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

May 1, 2022 10:39:51 GMT -5 laterbloomer said:

You might be right. My problem is that it isn't proven yet and too many people carry on as if it is. And we don't know the long term effects of Covid vaccines because they have not been around long term yet.
And the silence around the fact that the trucker's convoy did not result in an outbreak drives me crazy. If everything we have been told is fact that should have resulted in hundreds of deaths.

i feel the same way about masks as i do about burning wood in my fireplace.

scientists believe that burning wood in my fireplace makes unhealthy air for my fellow humans and contributes to greenhouse gasses.  whether it is proven absolutely, beyond any doubt is not really that important.  what is important is THIS:

1) that it is reasonably certain and
2) that EVEN IF IT WERE NOT proven, it won't hurt.

my biggest objection to the anti-mask community is that even in the absence of absolute proof, HOW HARD IS IT?  by NOT wearing a mask, you are basically saying that the science is less important than your "freedom".  it is a rather selfish view of freedom that one would put others at risk rather than taking what is AT WORST a slight inconvenience.  the selfishness, disrespect and lack of empathy are in plane sight, fortunately.  the anti-maskers are saying to me that they care MORE about their "independence" than my health.  that is a really selfish and immoral place to stand, imo.

Don't misunderstand, I'm for masking. That makes total sense to me and follows the model we've been using in hospitals forever. It has the added bonus of being non invasive so there really is no potential for harm. I've also become a fist bumper instead of a hand shaker or hugger. I'm even vaccinated and boosted, but that does not mean I don't have questions and concerns.
That chart you are keeping, is it cross referenced to protocols and population densities? How about with countries that closed their borders tightly?

[laterbloomer]

May 1, 2022 10:51:58 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

later: please don't take any of that personally.  i think you are a reasonable person, and agnostic on the subject.

Thanks, I've always found you one of the better posters to discuss stuff with. And agnostic is a good description.

[djAdvocate]

May 1, 2022 10:58:40 GMT -5 laterbloomer said:

May 1, 2022 10:48:36 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

i feel the same way about masks as i do about burning wood in my fireplace.

scientists believe that burning wood in my fireplace makes unhealthy air for my fellow humans and contributes to greenhouse gasses.  whether it is proven absolutely, beyond any doubt is not really that important.  what is important is THIS:

1) that it is reasonably certain and
2) that EVEN IF IT WERE NOT proven, it won't hurt.

my biggest objection to the anti-mask community is that even in the absence of absolute proof, HOW HARD IS IT?  by NOT wearing a mask, you are basically saying that the science is less important than your "freedom".  it is a rather selfish view of freedom that one would put others at risk rather than taking what is AT WORST a slight inconvenience.  the selfishness, disrespect and lack of empathy are in plane sight, fortunately.  the anti-maskers are saying to me that they care MORE about their "independence" than my health.  that is a really selfish and immoral place to stand, imo.

Don't misunderstand, I'm for masking. That makes total sense to me and follows the model we've been using in hospitals forever. It has the added bonus of being non invasive so there really is no potential for harm. I've also become a fist bumper instead of a hand shaker or hugger. I'm even vaccinated and boosted, but that does not mean I don't have questions and concerns.
That chart you are keeping, is it cross referenced to protocols and population densities? How about with countries that closed their borders tightly?

it is just my own personal standard, and it is somewhat arbitrary.  however, it is interesting that the C grade falls right where it should.  an equally just measure would be to place the C grade at 800 deaths per million.  that would put the middle of the B grade at 400, and the middle of the A grade at 200.  it makes it harder to get an A and a lot easier to get an F that way.  the US would easily fail using that standard, and Canada would still get a passing grade, though more narrowly.

i have not correlated it to mask use and vaccination rate.  i presume the study i posted for mask use does.

[laterbloomer]

Opti they ended up having thousands, possibly as high as 10 thousand, there the first weekend, a couple of thousand stayed for the duration and thousands more visited on weekends as if it was some kind of festival. They set up tents and hot tubs and basically did everything we were being told not to do. And they weren't vaccinated. I expected there to be an outbreak.

[Opti]

May 1, 2022 12:10:35 GMT -5 laterbloomer said:

Opti they ended up having thousands, possibly as high as 10 thousand, there the first weekend, a couple of thousand stayed for the duration and thousands more visited on weekends as if it was some kind of festival. They set up tents and hot tubs and basically did everything we were being told not to do. And they weren't vaccinated. I expected there to be an outbreak.

I know you were in the area and I am not, but total numbers I've been reading are much lower than initial projections. Say 5,000 people attended at all got Covid. At a 2% death rate that would be 100 people dead. However, much like the Sturbridge motorcycle rally not everyone caught Covid, so the case rate and the death rate is going to be less than the max possibility.

And given why they were protesting, if they had mild cases they might have been inclined not to report it and avoid healthcare facilities until they recovered.

[mollyc]

With respect to the Ottawa Invasion, there was an increase in Covid detected in the sewage system. We have no way to determine how many of the weekend warriors didn’t invade Ottawa on a particular weekend because they stayed home sick. For the most part, because of the obnoxious and aggressive “protesters”, the locals avoided all of them as much as possible. Many of the businesses located near the squatters shut down completely for the safety of their staff.

Many of the anti-mandates/anti-maskers weren’t anti-vaccine. Not everyone who wanted to Fuck Trudeau was anti-vaccine. If you listened in on their communications, pod casts, etc. many times someone was hacking up a lung or had a raspy throat although that could have been from the smoke rather then illness.

All of my online acquaintances in Ottawa avoided them as much as possible along with everyone they knew that supported the invasion.

I don’t think there is enough factual data available without more YouTube and reddit, etc searching then I’m interested in doing. I’ll go with the poop numbers and they say things got worse

[daisylu]

Apr 30, 2022 19:47:09 GMT -5 @pinkcshmere said:

O.M.G. 

I wish I’d never even started this stupid thread. I keep coming back to it, hoping to read someone’s response to the OP. But nooooo, every time I come back, it’s the same old stupid shit and arguments about the vaccines.

IRT the vaccines, I think that at this point we should all accept that we aren’t likely to change someone’s opinion that has an opposing view. 

I know that I don’t “own” a thread after I start it, but I really am disappointed that this thread has devolved into yet another argument about the vaccines. We’ve argued about that on several threads ever since the vaccines became available. Is it too much to ask that we talk about other things on other threads, without arguments about vaccines taking over?

Ijs.

You may not "own" it, but it is disrespectful (IMO) that the OP has asked several times to get the thread back on track and take other things elsewhere. I liked the intention of the thread, but I am also tired of what it has become.

[buystoys]

I haven't read the many pages on this thread.  Pink's post has had me thinking for a while and I decided to put some of my thoughts down finally.

Have I changed?  I have, but  like to think that I am a constantly evolving person as it is.  I hope I learn from my mistakes and from those I see others make.  My intention is to see the world through other's eyes and broaden my horizons.  It's impossible to see it all, do it all, and know it all, so I try to take pieces of knowledge from those I run into in life.

I don't know how the events of the last two years, specifically, have changed me.  I tend to be a loner and that made the stay at home orders easy for me to follow.  In fact, I have to make an effort now to get myself out of the house on a regular basis.  I've started volunteering and "requiring" myself to participate in regularly scheduled activities.  I lost my mom, but it wasn't really from Covid.  Her heart just gave out as they couldn't manage her A-fib.  Would she still be with us if she hadn't gotten sick?  Who knows?  She was recovering from radiation and chemotherapy for lung cancer.  A simple cold could have killed her.  So the fact that she had Covid was just another diagnosis we dealt with.  The worst part of that was not being able to see her in a good mental state before she passed.  She was pretty well comatose on drugs when I did get to see her.  That has made me more inclined to spend more time with my dad.  So that is a change, I guess, that came about because of Covid. 

The world just changes around us all the time.  There's no way to really get comfortable as something else will pop up to startle you.  I guess I've just figured I'll have to be adaptable and, to be happy, keep trying to find that silver lining in the clouds.  There's always something good happening if you look around. 

[daisylu]

So sorry for your loss buystoys

[laterbloomer]

May 1, 2022 15:54:11 GMT -5 daisylu said:

Apr 30, 2022 19:47:09 GMT -5 @pinkcshmere said:

O.M.G. 

I wish I’d never even started this stupid thread. I keep coming back to it, hoping to read someone’s response to the OP. But nooooo, every time I come back, it’s the same old stupid shit and arguments about the vaccines.

IRT the vaccines, I think that at this point we should all accept that we aren’t likely to change someone’s opinion that has an opposing view. 

I know that I don’t “own” a thread after I start it, but I really am disappointed that this thread has devolved into yet another argument about the vaccines. We’ve argued about that on several threads ever since the vaccines became available. Is it too much to ask that we talk about other things on other threads, without arguments about vaccines taking over?

Ijs.

You may not "own" it, but it is disrespectful (IMO) that the OP has asked several times to get the thread back on track and take other things elsewhere. I liked the intention of the thread, but I am also tired of what it has become.

All people have to do to get it "back on track" is post about the OP. Our posts are not stopping that in any way. Do you have any idea how many posts people do that I find as boring as shit? I don't tell them to stop posting

[daisylu]

Nobody said stop posting. But there are many other threads to discuss vaccines and science.

[laterbloomer]

May 1, 2022 18:39:54 GMT -5 daisylu said:

Nobody said stop posting. But there are many other threads to discuss vaccines and science.

You could have responded to me or to buystoys. If you want the thread "back on topic" why are you talking to me?

[Value Buy]

www.cnbc.com/2022/05/02/medical-professionals-are-skeptical-on-a-fourth-covid-vaccine-dose.html

[Opti]

May 2, 2022 5:22:35 GMT -5 Value Buy said:

www.cnbc.com/2022/05/02/medical-professionals-are-skeptical-on-a-fourth-covid-vaccine-dose.html

This would probably fit well on the vaccinated thread if you didn't want to start a new thread.

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

Skepticism over a fourth dose makes sense. Everything has a pk value which at that point you really aren't given much benefit continuing to dose.

Given how difficult it has been to roll out and get people to cooperate with three doses a fourth one for the entire population is worth debating. There is also the cost factorof tryingto give everyonea 4th and possiblyfifth dors.

And vaccine fatigue is real. I had a really strong response to the 3rd one. I'm not keen to get a fourth only to find out I need a 5th six months later.

Given my age and overall health I wouldn't qualify till the tail end anyhow so by the time they decide hopefully it's hammered out to where the process is once a year like the flu shot.

[Value Buy]

May 2, 2022 10:27:15 GMT -5 Opti said:

May 2, 2022 5:22:35 GMT -5 Value Buy said:

www.cnbc.com/2022/05/02/medical-professionals-are-skeptical-on-a-fourth-covid-vaccine-dose.html

This would probably fit well on the vaccinated thread if you didn't want to start a new thread.

Probably, but they would just label me an anti vaxxer there, and I am not anti vaccination and this thread has migrated to vaccines already.

[haapai]

@pink Cashmere I'm sorry that I was a part of this thread migrating.  I was getting a lot out of it even with the distractions, many of which seemed to be illustrations. 

I don't think that there is any way of getting it back on topic now. 

If you are brave enough and hopeful enough to start a new thread on this subject, I'd like to be a part of that conversation. 

I could have said this in a PM but I wanted to say it publicly.  Call me vain, but I'm kinda hoping that a few others will come out of the woodwork and second the thought. 

[nidena]

Since I helped derail this thread a bit, doing my part to get it back on track...

Vaccinated
Unvaccinated

  Let's switch the vaccine train(s) back to the more specific tracks.

[laterbloomer]

May 2, 2022 12:49:57 GMT -5 haapai said:

I don't think that there is any way of getting it back on topic now.

If you had used your post to comment on the OP the thread would be "back on topic". What are you guys not understanding about this concept?