Are You the Same Person?

[tallguy]

Apr 29, 2022 20:01:19 GMT -5 scgal said:

Apr 29, 2022 7:52:45 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

Facts are not relative. The are either true or not. You want to have it both ways.

The vaccines are safe and effective. Not only that, they are safer than most things people do not even have a concern about. Tylenol is OTC. It is safe. It is also the most common cause of suicide in Great Britain, and can cause liver failure. Yet everyone has given it to their children for fevers without even thinking twice. Tylenol does not save lives or alter disease, it just improves our quality of life. Yet its being on the market is not controversial. The nonsense about the vaccines is not about the vaccine itself, but based on nonsensical beliefs and politics.

It has to be both ways. Otherwise everyone would be mindless morons never questioning anything. Just go with the flow because they are told to. Now this is not personal I don't care if someone is vaxxed or not Im very comfortable knowing that it is their right to believe what they want but i'm very uncomfortable with anti vaxxers saying the people who want it is wrong just as i'm uncomfortable with anyone saying they are wrong. I doesn't matter about the facts they are only their to help you make your own personal choice. 

No.  No, no, no.  Everyone should of course question things.  But the end result of questioning is to reach a conclusion consistent with the facts that can be determined.  If you happen to reach a conclusion that is inconsistent with the facts then you were never really interested in the truth anyway.  You were just trying to justify your own beliefs for your own reasons, and that does not in any way qualify as "questioning" in any real sense.     

[pulmonarymd]

Apr 29, 2022 20:01:19 GMT -5 scgal said:

Apr 29, 2022 7:52:45 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

Facts are not relative. The are either true or not. You want to have it both ways.

The vaccines are safe and effective. Not only that, they are safer than most things people do not even have a concern about. Tylenol is OTC. It is safe. It is also the most common cause of suicide in Great Britain, and can cause liver failure. Yet everyone has given it to their children for fevers without even thinking twice. Tylenol does not save lives or alter disease, it just improves our quality of life. Yet its being on the market is not controversial. The nonsense about the vaccines is not about the vaccine itself, but based on nonsensical beliefs and politics.

It has to be both ways. Otherwise everyone would be mindless morons never questioning anything. Just go with the flow because they are told to. Now this is not personal I don't care if someone is vaxxed or not Im very comfortable knowing that it is their right to believe what they want but i'm very uncomfortable with anti vaxxers saying the people who want it is wrong just as i'm uncomfortable with anyone saying they are wrong. I doesn't matter about the facts they are only their to help you make your own personal choice. 

. No, it doesn’t. Evolution is a fact. It doesn’t matter if you don’t want to believe it. Question it all you like, it doesn’t change that. If you deny it you are a moron. There are plenty of things that are are uncertain. These things, including vaccination are not one of them. You just don’t like the judgment. You are not vaccinated and want yo be thought of as a good caring person. Sorry, it doesn’t work that way

[scgal]

Apr 29, 2022 21:25:35 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

Apr 29, 2022 20:01:19 GMT -5 scgal said:

It has to be both ways. Otherwise everyone would be mindless morons never questioning anything. Just go with the flow because they are told to. Now this is not personal I don't care if someone is vaxxed or not Im very comfortable knowing that it is their right to believe what they want but i'm very uncomfortable with anti vaxxers saying the people who want it is wrong just as i'm uncomfortable with anyone saying they are wrong. I doesn't matter about the facts they are only their to help you make your own personal choice. 

. No, it doesn’t. Evolution is a fact. It doesn’t matter if you don’t want to believe it. Question it all you like, it doesn’t change that. If you deny it you are a moron. There are plenty of things that are are uncertain. These things, including vaccination are not one of them. You just don’t like the judgment. You are not vaccinated and want yo be thought of as a good caring person. Sorry, it doesn’t work that way

I never said anything about evolution. Vaccination is uncertain no matter how you want to spin it. I'm not saying you shouldn't take it. I'm saying I respect the right of the individual that decides not to. Doesn't mean they are not a caring person. By the way did I ever say I was unvaccinated or you just passing judgment. 

Your right the judgment is bullshit. A bunch of people passing judgement on others concerns. Perfect example are right in everyone's face you cannot turn on the tv without an ambulance chaser trying to cash in on the newest medical fuck up. 

[pulmonarymd]

Apr 30, 2022 6:14:13 GMT -5 scgal said:

Apr 29, 2022 21:25:35 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

. No, it doesn’t. Evolution is a fact. It doesn’t matter if you don’t want to believe it. Question it all you like, it doesn’t change that. If you deny it you are a moron. There are plenty of things that are are uncertain. These things, including vaccination are not one of them. You just don’t like the judgment. You are not vaccinated and want yo be thought of as a good caring person. Sorry, it doesn’t work that way

I never said anything about evolution. Vaccination is uncertain no matter how you want to spin it. I'm not saying you shouldn't take it. I'm saying I respect the right of the individual that decides not to. Doesn't mean they are not a caring person. By the way did I ever say I was unvaccinated or you just passing judgment. 

Your right the judgment is bullshit. A bunch of people passing judgement on others concerns. Perfect example are right in everyone's face you cannot turn on the tv without an ambulance chaser trying to cash in on the newest medical fuck up. 

Vaccination is not uncertain. It is the greatest advance in the history of medicine. It has saved countless millions of lives. Your insistence to the contrary changes nothing. There has never been a vaccine associated with the long term complications that you seem to be so worried about. You take medications that are far more dangerous than vaccines are. You seem to think facts are malleable. They are not.

I am sure you have complained about gas prices. Yet we know they decrease the number of miles driven. That in turn improves air quality. We know that there are more emergency department visits for asthma, copd, and other respiratory complaints, and more deaths from heart attacks on bad quality days. The number drawfs the small number of people who claimed to be harmed from vaccines. Given your concern, I am sure you are willing to support our drive to decrease fossil fuel use. Since you are so concerned about peoples health

[raeoflyte]

Apr 29, 2022 20:01:19 GMT -5 scgal said:

Apr 29, 2022 7:52:45 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

Facts are not relative. The are either true or not. You want to have it both ways.

The vaccines are safe and effective. Not only that, they are safer than most things people do not even have a concern about. Tylenol is OTC. It is safe. It is also the most common cause of suicide in Great Britain, and can cause liver failure. Yet everyone has given it to their children for fevers without even thinking twice. Tylenol does not save lives or alter disease, it just improves our quality of life. Yet its being on the market is not controversial. The nonsense about the vaccines is not about the vaccine itself, but based on nonsensical beliefs and politics.

It has to be both ways. Otherwise everyone would be mindless morons never questioning anything. Just go with the flow because they are told to. Now this is not personal I don't care if someone is vaxxed or not Im very comfortable knowing that it is their right to believe what they want but i'm very uncomfortable with anti vaxxers saying the people who want it is wrong just as i'm uncomfortable with anyone saying they are wrong. I doesn't matter about the facts they are only their to help you make your own personal choice. 

I've said before on this thread that I used to feel similarly about vaccines, but I started to realize the problem with that when I was planning a party and realized that inviting the anti-vaxxers were putting my nephews lives at risk and I couldn't be responsible for that. Even if sil would have been okay with attending with the anti-vaxxers I would never forgive myself. Years before covid. And that's when I started to realize how many kids they were putting at risk without disclosing. It's pretty easy to keep my kids away from smokers. But I knew these people when my babies were too young to be vaccinated and they didn't share their status. I'm not sure in hind sight why it didn't bother me. Before ds was born we required that grandparents, aunts, and uncles get tdap.

My point is that your right to personal choice stops when it puts other people at risk. Like drunk drivers. Or do you think that's a nuisance law too?

Add in covid and it became abundantly clear that vaccines work because large portions of the population get them. At the very least anti vaxxers need to disclose that frequently and loudly to protect others, but that isnt somethingim seeing in public. I haven't read everything but do you not know anyone at high risk? Do you care if the plumber that works at their house is vaccinated?

[skeeter]

I have a question I've been wondering about strictly out of curiosity.

Just as an example, suppose there are two different people who are exactly the same age, gender, and have identical medical issues (if any at all). One was vaccinated as soon as the vaccine was available, but never got any of the boosters.  The other was never vaccinated. 

At this point in time, are they both equal now as far as catching Covid, being hospitalized, etc. or does the one who only got vaccinated once still have an advantage? 

[haapai]

According to yesterday's Washington Post.  Unvaccinated people who currently are about eight and a half times more likely to die than persons who have been vaccinated but never boosted.  The proportions have changed over time and with the variants.  The data that I cited is the most recent and was from March. 

link  I don't know why the article is dated the way it is.  I know that I read it yesterday. 

ETA:  I did not answer your question because I did not read it carefully.  I now see that you asked about the odds of being infected.  Whoops! 

I'll just leave this evidence of my mistake up and hopefully it will remind you to be kind to other fallible humans that you meet today. 

[pulmonarymd]

Apr 30, 2022 10:57:11 GMT -5 skeeter said:

I have a question I've been wondering about strictly out of curiosity.

Just as an example, suppose there are two different people who are exactly the same age, gender, and have identical medical issues (if any at all). One was vaccinated as soon as the vaccine was available, but never got any of the boosters.  The other was never vaccinated. 

At this point in time, are they both equal now as far as catching Covid, being hospitalized, etc. or does the one who only got vaccinated once still have an advantage? 

Vaccination decreases your risk of hospitalization and death by about 85-90%. Risk of moderate illness is also lower. Many infections in vaccinated individuals are asymptotic or mildly symptomatic. Vaccination decreases the risk of all outcomes, but breakthrough infections happen more frequently with the omicron variants.

Data on prevalence of infections by state have been released. States with high vaccination rates have a lower percentage of their population who were infected. Pretty compelling data

[nidena]

Apr 30, 2022 10:57:11 GMT -5 skeeter said:

I have a question I've been wondering about strictly out of curiosity.

Just as an example, suppose there are two different people who are exactly the same age, gender, and have identical medical issues (if any at all). One was vaccinated as soon as the vaccine was available, but never got any of the boosters.  The other was never vaccinated. 

At this point in time, are they both equal now as far as catching Covid, being hospitalized, etc. or does the one who only got vaccinated once still have an advantage? 

Indiana has a population of somewhere between 6M and 7M so use that to compare the data here: www.coronavirus.in.gov/vaccine/vaccine-dashboard/
One takeaway that I saw was that, out of 75,000 hospitalizations, less than 5,000 were vaccinated folx.

That doesn't speak to the other factors but the data is there for consumption.

[scgal]

Apr 30, 2022 10:20:33 GMT -5 raeoflyte said:

Apr 29, 2022 20:01:19 GMT -5 scgal said:

It has to be both ways. Otherwise everyone would be mindless morons never questioning anything. Just go with the flow because they are told to. Now this is not personal I don't care if someone is vaxxed or not Im very comfortable knowing that it is their right to believe what they want but i'm very uncomfortable with anti vaxxers saying the people who want it is wrong just as i'm uncomfortable with anyone saying they are wrong. I doesn't matter about the facts they are only their to help you make your own personal choice. 

I've said before on this thread that I used to feel similarly about vaccines, but I started to realize the problem with that when I was planning a party and realized that inviting the anti-vaxxers were putting my nephews lives at risk and I couldn't be responsible for that. Even if sil would have been okay with attending with the anti-vaxxers I would never forgive myself. Years before covid. And that's when I started to realize how many kids they were putting at risk without disclosing. It's pretty easy to keep my kids away from smokers. But I knew these people when my babies were too young to be vaccinated and they didn't share their status. I'm not sure in hind sight why it didn't bother me. Before ds was born we required that grandparents, aunts, and uncles get tdap.

My point is that your right to personal choice stops when it puts other people at risk. Like drunk drivers. Or do you think that's a nuisance law too?

Add in covid and it became abundantly clear that vaccines work because large portions of the population get them. At the very least anti vaxxers need to disclose that frequently and loudly to protect others, but that isnt somethingim seeing in public. I haven't read everything but do you not know anyone at high risk? Do you care if the plumber that works at their house is vaccinated?

some in my household is vaxxed some not none care about the other. No I don't care if the plumber is vaxxed. He could be vaxxed and still give it to me. 

Drunk driving is against the law covid vaccination is not. 

[haapai]

The CDC publishes data on reported infection rates for three different vaccine statuses - unvaccinated, vaccinated, and boosted. 

It's here but I think that you should be very careful and interpret it with a great deal of skepticism.. Under-reporting is a serious issue.  Who knows how many mild cases are not being tested for or only being detected with unreported rapid tests.  There is every reason to believe that the infections being reported tend to be the the more severe illnesses and those that occur among the elderly. 

To truly answer the question that you asked, we'd need data for a large number of persons with varying vaccination statuses who were being tested regularly because of their occupation or housing.

ETA:  and probably by age too.  Data from nursing homes where almost all of the elderly were vaccinated or vaccinated and boosted and from caretakers who are much less vaccinated, would probably give a confusing signal.  Prisons would probably be a better data set to use and employees with limited prisoner contact should probably be excluded. 

[chiver78]

Apr 30, 2022 12:42:17 GMT -5 scgal said:

Apr 30, 2022 10:20:33 GMT -5 raeoflyte said:

I've said before on this thread that I used to feel similarly about vaccines, but I started to realize the problem with that when I was planning a party and realized that inviting the anti-vaxxers were putting my nephews lives at risk and I couldn't be responsible for that. Even if sil would have been okay with attending with the anti-vaxxers I would never forgive myself. Years before covid. And that's when I started to realize how many kids they were putting at risk without disclosing. It's pretty easy to keep my kids away from smokers. But I knew these people when my babies were too young to be vaccinated and they didn't share their status. I'm not sure in hind sight why it didn't bother me. Before ds was born we required that grandparents, aunts, and uncles get tdap.

My point is that your right to personal choice stops when it puts other people at risk. Like drunk drivers. Or do you think that's a nuisance law too?

Add in covid and it became abundantly clear that vaccines work because large portions of the population get them. At the very least anti vaxxers need to disclose that frequently and loudly to protect others, but that isnt somethingim seeing in public. I haven't read everything but do you not know anyone at high risk? Do you care if the plumber that works at their house is vaccinated?

some in my household is vaxxed some not none care about the other. No I don't care if the plumber is vaxxed. He could be vaxxed and still give it to me. 

Drunk driving is against the law covid vaccination is not. 

So if it wasn't against the law, you'd be okay with drunk driving? because that's how you sound.

[pulmonarymd]

Apr 30, 2022 13:05:24 GMT -5 chiver78 said:

Apr 30, 2022 12:42:17 GMT -5 scgal said:

some in my household is vaxxed some not none care about the other. No I don't care if the plumber is vaxxed. He could be vaxxed and still give it to me. 

Drunk driving is against the law covid vaccination is not. 

So if it wasn't against the law, you'd be okay with drunk driving? because that's how you sound.

She is more worried about her freedom than others rights. She is also good with “alternate facts.” Don’t expect consistency, she is a conservative

[scgal]

Apr 30, 2022 13:05:24 GMT -5 chiver78 said:

Apr 30, 2022 12:42:17 GMT -5 scgal said:

some in my household is vaxxed some not none care about the other. No I don't care if the plumber is vaxxed. He could be vaxxed and still give it to me. 

Drunk driving is against the law covid vaccination is not. 

So if it wasn't against the law, you'd be okay with drunk driving? because that's how you sound.

comparing apples to oranges not the same thing. Younger years foolishly I did drink and drive

[chiver78]

Apr 30, 2022 13:11:43 GMT -5 scgal said:

Apr 30, 2022 13:05:24 GMT -5 chiver78 said:

So if it wasn't against the law, you'd be okay with drunk driving? because that's how you sound.

comparing apples to oranges not the same thing. Younger years foolishly I did drink and drive

I'm not comparing anything? I'm asking you to clarify your own words. I even quoted them, so you would know what I was asking. 🤷‍♀️

[haapai]

posted on the wrong thread. 

[Mardi Gras Audrey]

Apr 30, 2022 12:42:17 GMT -5 scgal said:

Apr 30, 2022 10:20:33 GMT -5 raeoflyte said:

I've said before on this thread that I used to feel similarly about vaccines, but I started to realize the problem with that when I was planning a party and realized that inviting the anti-vaxxers were putting my nephews lives at risk and I couldn't be responsible for that. Even if sil would have been okay with attending with the anti-vaxxers I would never forgive myself. Years before covid. And that's when I started to realize how many kids they were putting at risk without disclosing. It's pretty easy to keep my kids away from smokers. But I knew these people when my babies were too young to be vaccinated and they didn't share their status. I'm not sure in hind sight why it didn't bother me. Before ds was born we required that grandparents, aunts, and uncles get tdap.

My point is that your right to personal choice stops when it puts other people at risk. Like drunk drivers. Or do you think that's a nuisance law too?

Add in covid and it became abundantly clear that vaccines work because large portions of the population get them. At the very least anti vaxxers need to disclose that frequently and loudly to protect others, but that isnt somethingim seeing in public. I haven't read everything but do you not know anyone at high risk? Do you care if the plumber that works at their house is vaccinated?

some in my household is vaxxed some not none care about the other. No I don't care if the plumber is vaxxed. He could be vaxxed and still give it to me. 

Drunk driving is against the law covid vaccination is not. 

Is something’s legality what determines if it is safe?
Having a smoking section in a restaurant and smoking in businesses used to be legal. Was the second hand smoke people were exposed to in the 1950s-1990s safer than the second hand smoke that cigarettes produce today, given it is illegal to smoke around others in most public places now? I would think not.

Just like with the vaccines, it sadly took too many years to get the political will to outlaw smoking in most public places. We knew from at least the 1970s that second hand smoke could kill people but there were lots of areas that didn’t ban it until the late 1990s or 2000s. Those areas that didn’t ban it early... do we just consider the nonsmokers who died of lung cancer and other smoking related health issues during the years before the bans as acceptable collateral damage for the smokers freedom? Is it acceptable what smokers exposed people to for all those years because it was legal?

[TheOtherMe]

I have health issues where I do care if the people who enter my home are vaccinated.  I do not knowingly allow unvaccinated people in my house.  I have required mask wearing in my house since the beginning of the pandemic.  

My cleaning lady finally got vaccinated after she and her two kids got Covid.  So I let her start cleaning again with me there and both of us masked.

I will not see a dentist with unvaccinated  employees.  I  changed dentists over the issue.

We have two medical systems in my community.  One no longer requires masking and the other still requires it when visiting their facilities.  I am glad that I go to the system that requires masking.  I not go in if at all possible if they go to no masking.

[scgal]

Apr 30, 2022 13:11:08 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

Apr 30, 2022 13:05:24 GMT -5 chiver78 said:

So if it wasn't against the law, you'd be okay with drunk driving? because that's how you sound.

She is more worried about her freedom than others rights. She is also good with “alternate facts.” Don’t expect consistency, she is a conservative

Wow you know so much about me. Actually quite clueless. 

[pulmonarymd]

Apr 30, 2022 19:22:26 GMT -5 scgal said:

Apr 30, 2022 13:11:08 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

She is more worried about her freedom than others rights. She is also good with “alternate facts.” Don’t expect consistency, she is a conservative

Wow you know so much about me. Actually quite clueless. 

Just basing it on what you wrote. You believe facts are malleable. You do not think people have a right to know whether you are vaccinated or not. So we have no way to gauge the risk we are taking when we are exposed to such individuals. If I am immunosuppressed, I have no way to know if interacting with you could kill me. And you don’t care. Just going off of what you have posted

[scgal]

Apr 30, 2022 19:20:07 GMT -5 TheOtherMe said:

I have health issues where I do care if the people who enter my home are vaccinated.  I do not knowingly allow unvaccinated people in my house.  I have required mask wearing in my house since the beginning of the pandemic.  

My cleaning lady finally got vaccinated after she and her two kids got Covid.  So I let her start cleaning again with me there and both of us masked.

I will not see a dentist with unvaccinated  employees.  I  changed dentists over the issue.

We have two medical systems in my community.  One no longer requires masking and the other still requires it when visiting their facilities.  I am glad that I go to the system that requires masking.  I not go in if at all possible if they go to no masking.

I hope you continue to stay healthy

[pulmonarymd]

Apr 30, 2022 19:29:52 GMT -5 scgal said:

Apr 30, 2022 19:20:07 GMT -5 TheOtherMe said:

I have health issues where I do care if the people who enter my home are vaccinated.  I do not knowingly allow unvaccinated people in my house.  I have required mask wearing in my house since the beginning of the pandemic.  

My cleaning lady finally got vaccinated after she and her two kids got Covid.  So I let her start cleaning again with me there and both of us masked.

I will not see a dentist with unvaccinated  employees.  I  changed dentists over the issue.

We have two medical systems in my community.  One no longer requires masking and the other still requires it when visiting their facilities.  I am glad that I go to the system that requires masking.  I not go in if at all possible if they go to no masking.

I hope you continue to stay healthy

I am not immunosuppressed, but I take care of those who are. But you just showed how compassionate you are towards those people based on your belief that it is no one’s business whether the person they are interacting with is vaccinated

[scgal]

Apr 30, 2022 19:26:10 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

Apr 30, 2022 19:22:26 GMT -5 scgal said:

Wow you know so much about me. Actually quite clueless. 

Just basing it on what you wrote. You believe facts are malleable. You do not think people have a right to know whether you are vaccinated or not. So we have no way to gauge the risk we are taking when we are exposed to such individuals. If I am immunosuppressed, I have no way to know if interacting with you could kill me. And you don’t care. Just going off of what you have posted

I didn't write any of that. I didn't say facts are malleable actually I agreed with you on facts. What I said was people are not wrong to question facts. I never said you don't have a right to know if i'm vaccinated or not. What I said, (because you assumed I wasn't) that I never said I was vaccinated or not. There is a big difference. Since you brought it up no as of right now an individual does not have the right to know if another is vaccinated or not, as long as they are not in your personal area such as home, auto etc. 

[scgal]

Apr 30, 2022 19:33:21 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

Apr 30, 2022 19:29:52 GMT -5 scgal said:

I hope you continue to stay healthy

I am not immunosuppressed, but I take care of those who are. But you just showed how compassionate you are towards those people based on your belief that it is no one’s business whether the person they are interacting with is vaccinated

I didn't say that. Please show me where I said that

[Deleted]

O.M.G. 

I wish I’d never even started this stupid thread. I keep coming back to it, hoping to read someone’s response to the OP. But nooooo, every time I come back, it’s the same old stupid shit and arguments about the vaccines.

IRT the vaccines, I think that at this point we should all accept that we aren’t likely to change someone’s opinion that has an opposing view. 

I know that I don’t “own” a thread after I start it, but I really am disappointed that this thread has devolved into yet another argument about the vaccines. We’ve argued about that on several threads ever since the vaccines became available. Is it too much to ask that we talk about other things on other threads, without arguments about vaccines taking over?

Ijs.

[skeeter]

Apr 30, 2022 12:25:15 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

Apr 30, 2022 10:57:11 GMT -5 skeeter said:

I have a question I've been wondering about strictly out of curiosity.

Just as an example, suppose there are two different people who are exactly the same age, gender, and have identical medical issues (if any at all). One was vaccinated as soon as the vaccine was available, but never got any of the boosters.  The other was never vaccinated. 

At this point in time, are they both equal now as far as catching Covid, being hospitalized, etc. or does the one who only got vaccinated once still have an advantage? 

Vaccination decreases your risk of hospitalization and death by about 85-90%. Risk of moderate illness is also lower. Many infections in vaccinated individuals are asymptotic or mildly symptomatic. Vaccination decreases the risk of all outcomes, but breakthrough infections happen more frequently with the omicron variants.

Data on prevalence of infections by state have been released. States with high vaccination rates have a lower percentage of their population who were infected. Pretty compelling data

Thanks, but I already knew all of that.  I still would like a reply to my specific example if anyone knows the answer

[msventoux]

Apr 30, 2022 19:47:09 GMT -5 @pinkcshmere said:

O.M.G. 

I wish I’d never even started this stupid thread. I keep coming back to it, hoping to read someone’s response to the OP. But nooooo, every time I come back, it’s the same old stupid shit and arguments about the vaccines.

IRT the vaccines, I think that at this point we should all accept that we aren’t likely to change someone’s opinion that has an opposing view. 

I know that I don’t “own” a thread after I start it, but I really am disappointed that this thread has devolved into yet another argument about the vaccines. We’ve argued about that on several threads ever since the vaccines became available. Is it too much to ask that we talk about other things on other threads, without arguments about vaccines taking over?

Ijs.

Is Virgil’s Inferno still active?  The vaccine debate is as much or more contentious than the abortion debate and perhaps should be treated the same. Either banned or restricted to certain threads. Any fun, interesting or thought provoking thread just devolves into largely the same people arguing the same positions, with no one being persuaded to change their position. 

[djAdvocate]

is an oak the same as an acorn?
well, genetically, i guess.
but sure.  i have changed.
i change every day.
certain parts of me remain the same.
it is the nature of life.

[djAdvocate]

Apr 30, 2022 12:25:15 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

Apr 30, 2022 10:57:11 GMT -5 skeeter said:

I have a question I've been wondering about strictly out of curiosity.

Just as an example, suppose there are two different people who are exactly the same age, gender, and have identical medical issues (if any at all). One was vaccinated as soon as the vaccine was available, but never got any of the boosters.  The other was never vaccinated. 

At this point in time, are they both equal now as far as catching Covid, being hospitalized, etc. or does the one who only got vaccinated once still have an advantage? 

Vaccination decreases your risk of hospitalization and death by about 85-90%. Risk of moderate illness is also lower. Many infections in vaccinated individuals are asymptotic or mildly symptomatic. Vaccination decreases the risk of all outcomes, but breakthrough infections happen more frequently with the omicron variants.

Data on prevalence of infections by state have been released. States with high vaccination rates have a lower percentage of their population who were infected. Pretty compelling data

vaccinations reduce a deadly disease (Covid19) to the seasonal flu.  and sure, you can still die from the seasonal flu.  if it is your time to go.  but it is not going to kill you if it is NOT your time to go, if you are vaccinated. 

the only uncertainty with vaccines is if you refuse to take them.  then, you are indeed in an uncertain situation, as is everyone around you.  it is not like wearing seatbelts, which will probably only kill YOU if you don't.  it is more like drunk driving, which is MORE LIKELY to kill others than you.  getting vaccinated and wearing a mask is how you show RESPECT for others.  i presume most people can finish the syllogism.

[djAdvocate]

Apr 30, 2022 12:42:17 GMT -5 scgal said:

Apr 30, 2022 10:20:33 GMT -5 raeoflyte said:

I've said before on this thread that I used to feel similarly about vaccines, but I started to realize the problem with that when I was planning a party and realized that inviting the anti-vaxxers were putting my nephews lives at risk and I couldn't be responsible for that. Even if sil would have been okay with attending with the anti-vaxxers I would never forgive myself. Years before covid. And that's when I started to realize how many kids they were putting at risk without disclosing. It's pretty easy to keep my kids away from smokers. But I knew these people when my babies were too young to be vaccinated and they didn't share their status. I'm not sure in hind sight why it didn't bother me. Before ds was born we required that grandparents, aunts, and uncles get tdap.

My point is that your right to personal choice stops when it puts other people at risk. Like drunk drivers. Or do you think that's a nuisance law too?

Add in covid and it became abundantly clear that vaccines work because large portions of the population get them. At the very least anti vaxxers need to disclose that frequently and loudly to protect others, but that isnt somethingim seeing in public. I haven't read everything but do you not know anyone at high risk? Do you care if the plumber that works at their house is vaccinated?

some in my household is vaxxed some not none care about the other. No I don't care if the plumber is vaxxed. He could be vaxxed and still give it to me. 

Drunk driving is against the law covid vaccination is not. 

it is an analogy.  i think it is a fairly good one at several levels.  which makes me question whether it SHOULD BE legal to be unvaccinated.  if a person would face fines or imprisonment if not vaccinated, that might have saved half a million lives in the US.  seatbelt laws only save about 15k/year, yet very few people even bother to argue about them.  that, despite the fact that you generally won't kill ANOTHER person by not wearing your seatbelt.  in that sense, it makes far MORE sense to have a vaccination law than a seatbelt law.  the amount of societal harm is far greater being unvaccinated.