Are You the Same Person?

[pulmonarymd]

Apr 25, 2022 20:37:11 GMT -5 laterbloomer said:

Apr 25, 2022 10:34:57 GMT -5 Opti said:

If I remember correctly, the people who avoided vaccinations for medical reasons predominantly had clotting issues or issues with the vaccine ingredients. All the Covid deaths happened because they had Covid. I think many of the risk factors have been found including not being vaccinated and age over 65, 70 or wherever the line breaks.

What do you expect to be determined now after over 1 million people died in the US and over 6 million have died of Covid worldwide?
 

I think there is going to be a lot more analysis done and they are going to discover more about who was at risk and who wasn't. 1 million people dying of something in 2 years in the US doesn't seem like that big a number as a percentage. I think we are going to find out things like population density played a huge part in how many people got it and which strains people got. After being told all my life how the scientific method takes time, I believe that we are going to find out a lot of the info being circulated is going to be "corrected". I just don't know which way it's going to go.

The US has about 3 million deaths a years. Covid increased that by 15%, leading to a decline in life expectancy. It was the 3rd leading cause of death in the US the last 2 years. Nice. Downplay an absolute disaster.

The analysis about the number of lives that could have been saved last year was a simple analysis, similar to risk analysis for seeing the effects of other exogenous factors such as smoking and pollution. I bet you believe those.

The numbers are so large that it is not difficult to do them. The conclusions are based on well established science. You keep trying to defend an indefensible position

You are acting like the tobacco companies, denying something that is clearly true, and is just going to be worse with additional analysis. You are lying just like them

[laterbloomer]

Apr 25, 2022 21:06:41 GMT -5 tallguy said:

Apr 25, 2022 20:27:50 GMT -5 laterbloomer said:

Infallible Science www.discovermagazine.com/the-sciences/20-of-the-greatest-blunders-in-science-in-the-last-20-years
And these are just mistakes we know about

I skimmed your list, and my first impression is that most of these are errors by one or two people that then got blown up into public issues.  They are NOT errors in the consensus of many thousands of scientists, none of whom were working on anything more critical at the time.  To equate those things with vaccine research and response is silly.  So many were working on this that information almost couldn't be falsified, due simply to the number of people who would have seen different results.

I can understand you wanting to back up your opinion with something, but desperation is really a bad look.     

Stretch cut out the insults. You are capable of better.
Someone asked what could be done to bring doubters onboard. Not even trying to understand why we/they have doubts is not how it's done. There are a lot of people like me that do not believe in conspiracy theories but do not completely trust the pharmaceutical companies on this. Not even acknowledging that "science" has made some major screw ups in the past does not alleviate the doubts.

[Opti]

Apr 25, 2022 20:27:50 GMT -5 laterbloomer said:

Infallible Science www.discovermagazine.com/the-sciences/20-of-the-greatest-blunders-in-science-in-the-last-20-years
And these are just mistakes we know about

I'm curious why they call Y2K a blunder and why there is thanks to Bill Gates. Yes the popular press went crazy but the issue was addressed. Reading that makes me wonder yet again, why did anyone assume planes and their programming relied on the year. Why they would "fall out of the sky" over that. 

[tallguy]

Apr 25, 2022 21:53:59 GMT -5 laterbloomer said:

Apr 25, 2022 21:06:41 GMT -5 tallguy said:

I skimmed your list, and my first impression is that most of these are errors by one or two people that then got blown up into public issues.  They are NOT errors in the consensus of many thousands of scientists, none of whom were working on anything more critical at the time.  To equate those things with vaccine research and response is silly.  So many were working on this that information almost couldn't be falsified, due simply to the number of people who would have seen different results.

I can understand you wanting to back up your opinion with something, but desperation is really a bad look.     

Stretch cut out the insults. You are capable of better.
Someone asked what could be done to bring doubters onboard. Not even trying to understand why we/they have doubts is not how it's done. There are a lot of people like me that do not believe in conspiracy theories but do not completely trust the pharmaceutical companies on this. Not even acknowledging that "science" has made some major screw ups in the past does not alleviate the doubts.

I would suggest that you are capable of better too, but we have not seen it.  As far as I can tell you have simply been argumentative without putting forth an actual argument.  It may be different in Canada since you all are somewhat insulated from Trumpism, but I would guess that most Americans who are against the vaccines do not have legitimate doubts.  They are instead laboring under mistaken and twisted political beliefs that cause them to doubt most forms of real knowledge in deference to those beliefs.  If you have an actual argument to put forth, please feel free to do so. 

[haapai]

Apr 24, 2022 16:21:45 GMT -5 Mardi Gras Audrey said:

I have changed a lot in the last 2 years. I’ve become more jaded and sad about how little people seem to care about others. I work in healthcare and seeing how our management and our patients seem to think of us as disposable was very disheartening. It’s also frustrating hearing people have no consideration for others and act like 2 year olds when they don’t get their way. Makes me appreciate the kind people more.
,
I did change jobs to work for people that value their staff more. I realized that my family and friends are more important and I don’t want to miss things with them in order to please people who give no care to me or coworkers. It has helped me be able to talk time off and lower the blood pressure...😀

All of this has made me appreciate the people out there more... the grocery store clerks, food workers, postal carriers, retail workers. I appreciate all of them more and try to make their day better if I can...

I sincerely hope that your new employer values their staff more.  Myself, I've considered changing jobs just to run away from the memories of what happened in the last two+ years.  The new employer might not be any better but the memories and the resentments won't be there. 

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

I don't have time to go through that entire web page piece by piece but talk about bias.

Have you researched the corrective actions that were taken after all these events?

Science isn't infallible and I don't know anyone who is making that claim. Like anything else it's done by people.

People are imperfect and people can have sinister or unethical motivations. Also as time and technology advance we evolve things that were okay aren't okay now.

We haven't tossed out the entire fossil fuel industry despite knowing for quite a long time now how terrible it is for the planet.

Why are you okay with a gas powered car but Science is bad?

I highly encourage you to step away from that website. Take anything you want from it and plug it into Google scholar you will find thousands of articles discussing those things and how the world is moving forward to correct it.

While there please look up summary articles on RNA vaccines. The data has been around since the late 70s. If you want to understand more Code Breaker about the woman who invented Crispr is excellent. It's a tome but it goes through it all including ethical concerns.

I can't disapprove everything anymore than I can prove everything. Just because you have a question I can't prove wrong doesn't make your side correct. The reverseis also true.

There is evidence for and against. I encourage you to step out of your zone and answer your own concerns. Experts are out there.

[stillmovingforward]

On a side note, only somewhat related, whenever I'm working with a new engineer fresh out of collage I recommend they read 'To Engineer is Human'. It's about engineers who did their best with the information known and the project failed catastrophically. And why.
So they understand the importance of research, adapted information, and knowing that they could be working with the wrong assumption. Solid information but we've learned more about the idea.

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

I used to be CITI certified for clinical research.

A large part of that training was going over a very wide selection of the unethical shit done in the name of science.

Then going through that's why these rules, regulatory boards, processes and training and safe guards exist.

You can't present all the wrong stuff and claim you are vindicated if you refuse to.acknowledge what is done to correct it.

No.system designed by humans is perfect or infallible. Unlike religion science eventually self corrects. It may take way longer than it should but it corrects.

[stillmovingforward]

Apr 26, 2022 9:46:34 GMT -5 NomoreDramaQ1015 said:

I used to be CITI certified for clinical research.

A large part of that training was going over a very wide selection of the unethical shit done in the name of science.

Then going through that's why these rules, regulatory boards, processes and training and safe guards exist.

You can't present all the wrong stuff and claim you are vindicated if you refuse to.acknowledge what is done to correct it.

No.system designed by humans is perfect or infallible. Unlike religion science eventually self corrects. It may take way longer than it should but it corrects.

That's a cool certification!

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

Apr 26, 2022 9:54:25 GMT -5 stillmovingforward said:

Apr 26, 2022 9:46:34 GMT -5 NomoreDramaQ1015 said:

I used to be CITI certified for clinical research.

A large part of that training was going over a very wide selection of the unethical shit done in the name of science.

Then going through that's why these rules, regulatory boards, processes and training and safe guards exist.

You can't present all the wrong stuff and claim you are vindicated if you refuse to.acknowledge what is done to correct it.

No.system designed by humans is perfect or infallible. Unlike religion science eventually self corrects. It may take way longer than it should but it corrects.

That's a cool certification!

It was a pain! Very important pain but renewal took 3 hours of my life away each time.

That is something people who are hesitant about the vaccine should look into. There is a reason why you can't just hand a pregnant woman a pill nowadays and say here take it.

Those things absolutely happened. So did covering up aspirin cause Reyes Syndrome. Same with addiction to opiates.

But these processes eventually caught and exposed then all. To say a heavily vetted vaccine is the same as thalidomide is a false equivalent.

Same as comparing it to Tuskegee.

On that subject not only is it misappropriation but it also way over simplifies the systemic issues in.our health care system that have done far more to sow long term distrust. It wasn't a one time event.

[chiver78]

Apr 26, 2022 9:19:10 GMT -5 stillmovingforward said:

On a side note, only somewhat related, whenever I'm working with a new engineer fresh out of collage I recommend they read 'To Engineer is Human'. It's about engineers who did their best with the information known and the project failed catastrophically. And why.
So they understand the importance of research, adapted information, and knowing that they could be working with the wrong assumption. Solid information but we've learned more about the idea.

I have to take a GMP recertification course annually, although the format can vary. one year, the only thing that fit in my calendar before it would be a late training was an 8h "History of the FDA" course intended for new hires. I was incredibly impressed with the depth we went into the tragedies that shaped regulatory oversight all the way back to the 1906 Pure Food and Drugs Act. many of these tragedies were a result of people doing their best with the information known. 

[stillmovingforward]

That's what often scares me about my current job. I'm making important decisions that we think are right, but we don't have much history so I could be killing someone in the future. Despite my very best efforts.

[laterbloomer]

Apr 25, 2022 22:28:38 GMT -5 tallguy said:

Apr 25, 2022 21:53:59 GMT -5 laterbloomer said:

Stretch cut out the insults. You are capable of better.
Someone asked what could be done to bring doubters onboard. Not even trying to understand why we/they have doubts is not how it's done. There are a lot of people like me that do not believe in conspiracy theories but do not completely trust the pharmaceutical companies on this. Not even acknowledging that "science" has made some major screw ups in the past does not alleviate the doubts.

I would suggest that you are capable of better too, but we have not seen it.  As far as I can tell you have simply been argumentative without putting forth an actual argument.  It may be different in Canada since you all are somewhat insulated from Trumpism, but I would guess that most Americans who are against the vaccines do not have legitimate doubts.  They are instead laboring under mistaken and twisted political beliefs that cause them to doubt most forms of real knowledge in deference to those beliefs.  If you have an actual argument to put forth, please feel free to do so. 

We have the people that are nut cases too, but not everyone that has concerns is a nut case. And you are refusing to acknowledge this. The things I have brought up are serious concerns of mine. Science is not infallible and this process has gone very quickly. The current vaccines are not behaving in the way we were promised originally and it is a constant litany of go get the next vaccine. This did not happen with my polio vaccine, or rubella or any of the others I received to go to school. I also have friends that have had bad reactions to previous vaccines and they are having a very hard time getting medical exemptions from these ones. Anyway, I've said what I want to say on the subject.Saying I told you say in a year or two is not going to be very satisfying when the stakes are so high.

[laterbloomer]

Apr 25, 2022 22:21:31 GMT -5 Opti said:

Apr 25, 2022 20:27:50 GMT -5 laterbloomer said:

Infallible Science www.discovermagazine.com/the-sciences/20-of-the-greatest-blunders-in-science-in-the-last-20-years
And these are just mistakes we know about

I'm curious why they call Y2K a blunder and why there is thanks to Bill Gates. Yes the popular press went crazy but the issue was addressed. Reading that makes me wonder yet again, why did anyone assume planes and their programming relied on the year. Why they would "fall out of the sky" over that. 

I took the thanks to Bill Gates as being sarcastic. It sounds silly now but it was widely reported as fact at the time.

[pulmonarymd]

Apr 26, 2022 11:31:55 GMT -5 laterbloomer said:

Apr 25, 2022 22:28:38 GMT -5 tallguy said:

I would suggest that you are capable of better too, but we have not seen it.  As far as I can tell you have simply been argumentative without putting forth an actual argument.  It may be different in Canada since you all are somewhat insulated from Trumpism, but I would guess that most Americans who are against the vaccines do not have legitimate doubts.  They are instead laboring under mistaken and twisted political beliefs that cause them to doubt most forms of real knowledge in deference to those beliefs.  If you have an actual argument to put forth, please feel free to do so. 

We have the people that are nut cases too, but not everyone that has concerns is a nut case. And you are refusing to acknowledge this. The things I have brought up are serious concerns of mine. Science is not infallible and this process has gone very quickly. The current vaccines are not behaving in the way we were promised originally and it is a constant litany of go get the next vaccine. This did not happen with my polio vaccine, or rubella or any of the others I received to go to school. I also have friends that have had bad reactions to previous vaccines and they are having a very hard time getting medical exemptions from these ones. Anyway, I've said what I want to say on the subject.Saying I told you say in a year or two is not going to be very satisfying when the stakes are so high.

You think you are not anti-science but you are. You are making decisions on anecdotes, not data. You do not believe big pharm, but their is plenty of data to support the vaccines that is not from them. The science behind the vaccines was not done overnight, as Drama has pointed out. If you understood that, you would not be saying what you did. The vaccine worked far bette rthan anticipated when it was first developed, and although less effective at preventing infection, still is excellent at preventing death and hospitalization, and would have been more than enough to impact the pandemic if this is how they worked originally.

The reason you do not need to update your polio vaccine has everything to do with herd immunity and the behavior of the virus. Coronaviruses are different virus with different behavior. It will lead to different recommendations. If you think the changing recommendations are a problem, then you expect us to know everything we need to right now about a novel disease. That is absurd. And finally, during a crisis(which you just downplayed), good enough is enough. Perfect gets people killed. Your unwillingness to act in a way to help your fellow man makes you no better than all the AMericans you seem to take pleasure in felling superior to.

[laterbloomer]

Apr 26, 2022 6:46:45 GMT -5 NomoreDramaQ1015 said:

I don't have time to go through that entire web page piece by piece but talk about bias.

Have you researched the corrective actions that were taken after all these events?

Science isn't infallible and I don't know anyone who is making that claim. Like anything else it's done by people.

People are imperfect and people can have sinister or unethical motivations. Also as time and technology advance we evolve things that were okay aren't okay now.

We haven't tossed out the entire fossil fuel industry despite knowing for quite a long time now how terrible it is for the planet.

Why are you okay with a gas powered car but Science is bad?

I highly encourage you to step away from that website. Take anything you want from it and plug it into Google scholar you will find thousands of articles discussing those things and how the world is moving forward to correct it.

While there please look up summary articles on RNA vaccines. The data has been around since the late 70s. If you want to understand more Code Breaker about the woman who invented Crispr is excellent. It's a tome but it goes through it all including ethical concerns.

I can't disapprove everything anymore than I can prove everything. Just because you have a question I can't prove wrong doesn't make your side correct. The reverseis also true.

There is evidence for and against. I encourage you to step out of your zone and answer your own concerns. Experts are out there.

Thank you for replying in a sensible way.

I'm not exactly okay with gas powered cars so much as I don't see that I have a choice. A lot like getting these vaccinations. I've done it but I still have a lot of concerns.

[tallguy]

Apr 26, 2022 11:31:55 GMT -5 laterbloomer said:

Apr 25, 2022 22:28:38 GMT -5 tallguy said:

I would suggest that you are capable of better too, but we have not seen it.  As far as I can tell you have simply been argumentative without putting forth an actual argument.  It may be different in Canada since you all are somewhat insulated from Trumpism, but I would guess that most Americans who are against the vaccines do not have legitimate doubts.  They are instead laboring under mistaken and twisted political beliefs that cause them to doubt most forms of real knowledge in deference to those beliefs.  If you have an actual argument to put forth, please feel free to do so. 

We have the people that are nut cases too, but not everyone that has concerns is a nut case. And you are refusing to acknowledge this. The things I have brought up are serious concerns of mine. Science is not infallible and this process has gone very quickly. The current vaccines are not behaving in the way we were promised originally and it is a constant litany of go get the next vaccine. This did not happen with my polio vaccine, or rubella or any of the others I received to go to school. I also have friends that have had bad reactions to previous vaccines and they are having a very hard time getting medical exemptions from these ones. Anyway, I've said what I want to say on the subject.Saying I told you say in a year or two is not going to be very satisfying when the stakes are so high.

Why do you say this?  Because the virus mutates?  That is not the fault of the vaccines.  You get a different flu shot every year, don't you?  Not only is the flu virus different every year but immunity wanes over time as well.  Why would you expect this to be different?  It was always a possibility.  The ones you mentioned like polio and rubella don't mutate in the same way, so vaccinations will last longer without needing to be re-administered. I would also take issue with the word, "promised."  No promises were made, other than to use the best currently-available information to come up with the best possible course of action at the time based on that information.  Nobody with any degree of knowledge or integrity would promise anything based on preliminary information.  There are reportedly a very few  people who are unable to tolerate the vaccine.  That does not in any way excuse the many, many millions of "nut cases" out there.

[laterbloomer]

Apr 26, 2022 11:57:57 GMT -5 tallguy said:

Apr 26, 2022 11:31:55 GMT -5 laterbloomer said:

We have the people that are nut cases too, but not everyone that has concerns is a nut case. And you are refusing to acknowledge this. The things I have brought up are serious concerns of mine. Science is not infallible and this process has gone very quickly. The current vaccines are not behaving in the way we were promised originally and it is a constant litany of go get the next vaccine. This did not happen with my polio vaccine, or rubella or any of the others I received to go to school. I also have friends that have had bad reactions to previous vaccines and they are having a very hard time getting medical exemptions from these ones. Anyway, I've said what I want to say on the subject.Saying I told you say in a year or two is not going to be very satisfying when the stakes are so high.

Why do you say this?  Because the virus mutates?  That is not the fault of the vaccines.  You get a different flu shot every year, don't you?  Not only is the flu virus different every year but immunity wanes over time as well.  Why would you expect this to be different?  It was always a possibility.  The ones you mentioned like polio and rubella don't mutate in the same way, so vaccinations will last longer without needing to be re-administered. I would also take issue with the word, "promised."  No promises were made, other than to use the best currently-available information to come up with the best possible course of action at the time based on that information.  Nobody with any degree of knowledge or integrity would promise anything based on preliminary information.  There are reportedly a very few  people who are unable to tolerate the vaccine.  That does not in any way excuse the many, many millions of "nut cases" out there.

No one says it does. But their existence does not excuse dismissing people that are legitimately concerned and attacking when they/we express those concerns.

[Opti]

Apr 26, 2022 11:40:44 GMT -5 laterbloomer said:

Apr 25, 2022 22:21:31 GMT -5 Opti said:

I'm curious why they call Y2K a blunder and why there is thanks to Bill Gates. Yes the popular press went crazy but the issue was addressed. Reading that makes me wonder yet again, why did anyone assume planes and their programming relied on the year. Why they would "fall out of the sky" over that. 

I took the thanks to Bill Gates as being sarcastic. It sounds silly now but it was widely reported as fact at the time.

I disagree on it being reported as a fact. It was reported as a possibility by people who did not work on software involved in flying planes. Who wanted eyeballs. Same with financial accounts. They wouldn't be zeroed, lookups based on uncorrected dates would be wrong and report incorrect information.

The popular press can be stupid. Much of the software to be converted lived on mainframes and midrange computers that had nothing to do with Bill Gates. 

[pulmonarymd]

Apr 26, 2022 12:01:48 GMT -5 laterbloomer said:

Apr 26, 2022 11:57:57 GMT -5 tallguy said:

Why do you say this?  Because the virus mutates?  That is not the fault of the vaccines.  You get a different flu shot every year, don't you?  Not only is the flu virus different every year but immunity wanes over time as well.  Why would you expect this to be different?  It was always a possibility.  The ones you mentioned like polio and rubella don't mutate in the same way, so vaccinations will last longer without needing to be re-administered. I would also take issue with the word, "promised."  No promises were made, other than to use the best currently-available information to come up with the best possible course of action at the time based on that information.  Nobody with any degree of knowledge or integrity would promise anything based on preliminary information.  There are reportedly a very few  people who are unable to tolerate the vaccine.  That does not in any way excuse the many, many millions of "nut cases" out there.

No one says it does. But their existence does not excuse dismissing people that are legitimately concerned and attacking when they/we express those concerns.

But your concerns aren't "legitimate". You haven't shared what your "concerns" are. From what you have alluded to, they are no different than the ones I have to refute repeatedly from people with similar "concerns".

[giramomma]

Apr 26, 2022 11:48:11 GMT -5 laterbloomer said:

Apr 26, 2022 6:46:45 GMT -5 NomoreDramaQ1015 said:

Thank you for replying in a sensible way.

I'm not exactly okay with gas powered cars so much as I don't see that I have a choice. A lot like getting these vaccinations. I've done it but I still have a lot of concerns.

Ahh, but you do have a choice.

When we moved, we picked a house that DH could bike to work from, we could walk to the grocery store and a few of the kids' activities, and city parks.

We can walk to the neighborhood elementary school (and often walked to do pick up of the Missy), and my kids can get to high school without relying on a bike.

I prefer public mass transportation. Our house was picked based on that as well.

You could also chose to buy a tesla.

I do drive about 350 miles a month. It's one tank of gas, give or take. That's considering I'm driving around four kids to stuff in addition to mulitple work sites. Plus, a metric crapton of trips to the hospital.

Now, I feel like I had less of a choice when the drs were determining my cancer treatment. We went with more of a basic, does it make sense? Because I'm not a trained oncologist, surgeon, and radiation oncologist. I had to trust the system. Well, I should rephrase...it was better for me to trust the system. My cancer was already in one lymph node. I wasn't willing to risk it going to stage IV and be given a whole lot less time to live.

In the grand scheme of things, the seriousness of my choice to drive a gas powered vehicle vs treatment that would basically save my life...two wholly and completely different things that can't even compare.

I even give you, it was really hard to trust a system that had no concrete answers. It wasn't "Absolutely, take the chemo, do the lumpectomy, and get radiated and you'll be cured." It was "well, let's see how your body reacts to chemo. Then we'll figure out what kind of surgery and radiation you need." When it got to surgery time, my surgeon had to make a medical decision for me. Take out more lymph nodes unnecessarily or risk that I'd have to go through another surgery again in a few weeks.

Maybe you don't like the uncertainty or that medicine is an art as well as a science that continues to evolve. I'm super grateful of both. Otherwise, chances are, if this was 30 years ago, I would have died.

I was pretty meh on the vaccine, as well. I feel like medical treatment is not based on personal needs anymore but whatever a computer spits out because a specific box was checked...at least at the PCP level.

But, I'd rather be part of the solution than part of the problem.

And, that is a choice, even if you don't perceive it to be a choice.

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

Apr 26, 2022 11:48:11 GMT -5 laterbloomer said:

Apr 26, 2022 6:46:45 GMT -5 NomoreDramaQ1015 said:

I don't have time to go through that entire web page piece by piece but talk about bias.

Have you researched the corrective actions that were taken after all these events?

Science isn't infallible and I don't know anyone who is making that claim. Like anything else it's done by people.

People are imperfect and people can have sinister or unethical motivations. Also as time and technology advance we evolve things that were okay aren't okay now.

We haven't tossed out the entire fossil fuel industry despite knowing for quite a long time now how terrible it is for the planet.

Why are you okay with a gas powered car but Science is bad?

I highly encourage you to step away from that website. Take anything you want from it and plug it into Google scholar you will find thousands of articles discussing those things and how the world is moving forward to correct it.

While there please look up summary articles on RNA vaccines. The data has been around since the late 70s. If you want to understand more Code Breaker about the woman who invented Crispr is excellent. It's a tome but it goes through it all including ethical concerns.

I can't disapprove everything anymore than I can prove everything. Just because you have a question I can't prove wrong doesn't make your side correct. The reverseis also true.

There is evidence for and against. I encourage you to step out of your zone and answer your own concerns. Experts are out there.

Thank you for replying in a sensible way.

I'm not exactly okay with gas powered cars so much as I don't see that I have a choice. A lot like getting these vaccinations. I've done it but I still have a lot of concerns.

And concerns are fine. The issue is it's become an echo chamber and in the US particularly a requirement of being a member of the Republican cult.

Your website isn't wrong but it IS a biased echo chamber. I noticed not a single mention of how things were addressed to correct things in the future.

All that site does is confirm your bias.

Doesn't mean you won't still have concerns but it's vital to look at sources and material that challenge the echo chamber.

Most people do not and will not. There are a host of psychological reasons why.

And yeah I get frustrated and pissdd at certain people once it becomes evident I'd get further trying to move a truck with my teeth. I'm also only human.

But I can't let the echo chamber down me out either s or I keep going. If I make just one person stop and think I consider it a win.

[chiver78]

But I can't let the echo chamber down me out either s or I keep going. If I make just one person stop and think I consider it a win.

you have far more patience than I do, DQ. I gave up trying to explain the science of mRNA and the actual approvals process for drug products in distribution (the latter of which is literally what I do for a living) when all I was getting back was comments about how I must be getting kickbacks for being a shill for "big pharma"    I wish I had the patience to say more, to get that one person to stop and think. but after awhile, it was better for my own sanity to consider that those  were more likely to be punching their own funeral ticket. I just hope they kept the collateral damage to a minimum. 

[scgal]

Apr 26, 2022 12:25:18 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

Apr 26, 2022 12:01:48 GMT -5 laterbloomer said:

No one says it does. But their existence does not excuse dismissing people that are legitimately concerned and attacking when they/we express those concerns.

But your concerns aren't "legitimate". You haven't shared what your "concerns" are. From what you have alluded to, they are no different than the ones I have to refute repeatedly from people with similar "concerns".

Why are her concerns not legitimate? Just because you, I, or anyone else may not see it that way that does not make it illegitimate. Not trusting the science does not make it illegitimate. I have struggled with this myself then finally can to the point of neutrality. It's really a persons personal choice what they want to do no matter how or what brought them to that conclusion. 

[laterbloomer]

Apr 26, 2022 12:57:28 GMT -5 giramomma said:

Apr 26, 2022 11:48:11 GMT -5 laterbloomer said:

Thank you for replying in a sensible way.

I'm not exactly okay with gas powered cars so much as I don't see that I have a choice. A lot like getting these vaccinations. I've done it but I still have a lot of concerns.

Now, I feel like I had less of a choice when the drs were determining my cancer treatment. We went with more of a basic, does it make sense? Because I'm not a trained oncologist, surgeon, and radiation oncologist. I had to trust the system. Well, I should rephrase...it was better for me to trust the system. My cancer was already in one lymph node. I wasn't willing to risk it going to stage IV and be given a whole lot less time to live.

In the grand scheme of things, the seriousness of my choice to drive a gas powered vehicle vs treatment that would basically save my life...two wholly and completely different things that can't even compare.

I even give you, it was really hard to trust a system that had no concrete answers. It wasn't "Absolutely, take the chemo, do the lumpectomy, and get radiated and you'll be cured." It was "well, let's see how your body reacts to chemo. Then we'll figure out what kind of surgery and radiation you need." When it got to surgery time, my surgeon had to make a medical decision for me. Take out more lymph nodes unnecessarily or risk that I'd have to go through another surgery again in a few weeks.

Maybe you don't like the uncertainty or that medicine is an art as well as a science that continues to evolve. I'm super grateful of both. Otherwise, chances are, if this was 30 years ago, I would have died.

One of the big differences I see with how we approach cancer treatment is that they are very open about the negative side effects of the treatment, from what I have seen they are very cautious about the prognosis, and no one attacks you if you decline to do chemo (or complain about the side effects of it).

I do have a gas efficient car, we car pool as much as possible and we are a one car couple. Functioning without a car in my city would be very difficult. The public transit is terrible and there is no part of town you could move to be close to everything.

[pulmonarymd]

Apr 26, 2022 13:06:26 GMT -5 scgal said:

Apr 26, 2022 12:25:18 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

But your concerns aren't "legitimate". You haven't shared what your "concerns" are. From what you have alluded to, they are no different than the ones I have to refute repeatedly from people with similar "concerns".

Why are her concerns not legitimate? Just because you, I, or anyone else may not see it that way that does not make it illegitimate. Not trusting the science does not make it illegitimate. I have struggled with this myself then finally can to the point of neutrality. It's really a persons personal choice what they want to do no matter how or what brought them to that conclusion. 

The "concern" that the measles vaccine causes autism is n ot legitimate. The idea that you need antibiotics to treat a viral infection is not "legitimate". The idea that the vaccines were developed by big pharma, which makes it "concerning" is not legitimate. They are all not legitimate because they are not fact based and can be refuted. The idea that the vaccines are suspect because they can change our DNA is not legitimate. I could go on. If she has "legitimate" concerns, she can lay them out so they can be addressed.

Just like the concern about voter fraud is not "legitimate" because it has been shown to occur in very few instances.

Not everything people are "concerned" about is legitimate.

[laterbloomer]

Apr 26, 2022 12:57:50 GMT -5 NomoreDramaQ1015 said:

Apr 26, 2022 11:48:11 GMT -5 laterbloomer said:

Thank you for replying in a sensible way.

I'm not exactly okay with gas powered cars so much as I don't see that I have a choice. A lot like getting these vaccinations. I've done it but I still have a lot of concerns.

And concerns are fine. The issue is it's become an echo chamber and in the US particularly a requirement of being a member of the Republican cult.

Your website isn't wrong but it IS a biased echo chamber. I noticed not a single mention of how things were addressed to correct things in the future.

All that site does is confirm your bias.

Doesn't mean you won't still have concerns but it's vital to look at sources and material that challenge the echo chamber.

Most people do not and will not. There are a host of psychological reasons why.

And yeah I get frustrated and pissdd at certain people once it becomes evident I'd get further trying to move a truck with my teeth. I'm also only human.

But I can't let the echo chamber down me out either s or I keep going. If I make just one person stop and think I consider it a win.

The problem is it has become part of the Liberal Cult to not be allowed to express concerns about the vaccine.

I just used the website to show that some serious mistakes do happen, it's not actually part of my regular reading. The fact that the errors are "eventually" caught is part of what I am saying. This is all still very new.

All that said, you have been addressing some of the stuff. If you can go back and read you will see where I said the links Stretch posted were encouraging but I had a few more questions. A few people decided to ignore what I said and just go on the attack again.

[pulmonarymd]

Apr 26, 2022 13:09:33 GMT -5 laterbloomer said:

Apr 26, 2022 12:57:28 GMT -5 giramomma said:

Now, I feel like I had less of a choice when the drs were determining my cancer treatment. We went with more of a basic, does it make sense? Because I'm not a trained oncologist, surgeon, and radiation oncologist. I had to trust the system. Well, I should rephrase...it was better for me to trust the system. My cancer was already in one lymph node. I wasn't willing to risk it going to stage IV and be given a whole lot less time to live.

In the grand scheme of things, the seriousness of my choice to drive a gas powered vehicle vs treatment that would basically save my life...two wholly and completely different things that can't even compare.

I even give you, it was really hard to trust a system that had no concrete answers. It wasn't "Absolutely, take the chemo, do the lumpectomy, and get radiated and you'll be cured." It was "well, let's see how your body reacts to chemo. Then we'll figure out what kind of surgery and radiation you need." When it got to surgery time, my surgeon had to make a medical decision for me. Take out more lymph nodes unnecessarily or risk that I'd have to go through another surgery again in a few weeks.

Maybe you don't like the uncertainty or that medicine is an art as well as a science that continues to evolve. I'm super grateful of both. Otherwise, chances are, if this was 30 years ago, I would have died.

One of the big differences I see with how we approach cancer treatment is that they are very open about the negative side effects of the treatment, from what I have seen they are very cautious about the prognosis, and no one attacks you if you decline to do chemo (or complain about the side effects of it).

I do have a gas efficient car, we car pool as much as possible and we are a one car couple. Functioning without a car in my city would be very difficult. The public transit is terrible and there is no part of town you could move to be close to everything.

Your refusing to be treated for cancer affects you(and maybe your family). Refusing to do something about a contagious respiratory disease affects others. You do not want the vaccine or to do things to decrease the spread, live by yourself. Once you are part of society, those actions affect others.

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

You refusing cancer treatment only affects you though. You cannot give me cancer if you choose to forgo treatment.

I may disagree with you but in the end you face the consequences.

Not vaccinating puts others at risk and expects society to deal with the consequences of your choices.

We humans live in a society. To evolve to that point over the course of millenia concessions have been made weighing the lives of many against the few.

It's not perfect and both sides use the debate for their own ends.

I'm not going to respect your Decision to pit my health and my life at risk.

You are free to make that choice but you don't have the right to escape the consequences of it. If it means you stay masked or can't go somewhere then you need to accept it.[it.

THATis a huge part of my beef. You don'thavethe right to make a choicethen escape all ownership of it. Which is what many people want.
Just as if in 20 years the COVID vaccine caused cancer. I chose to take the risk based on known information. That's a potential consequence of ot.

[laterbloomer]

Apr 26, 2022 13:16:32 GMT -5 NomoreDramaQ1015 said:

You refusing cancer treatment only affects you though. You cannot give me cancer if you choose to forgo treatment.

I may disagree with you but in the end you face the consequences.

Not vaccinating puts others at risk and expects society to deal with the consequences of your choices.

We humans live in a society. To evolve to that point over the course of millenia concessions have been made weighing the lives of many against the few.

It's not perfect and both sides use the debate for their own ends.

I'm not going to respect your Decision to pit my health and my life at risk.

You are free to make that choice but you don't have the right to escape the consequences of it. If it means you stay masked or can't go somewhere then you need to accept it.[it.

THATis a huge part of my beef. You don'thavethe right to make a choicethen escape all ownershipof it.
Just as if in 20 years the COVID vaccine caused cancer. I chose to take the risk based on known information. That's a potential consequence of ot.

I still don't get why I'm not protected when I have been vaccinated. That just makes no sense to me. I do understand how annoying it is to have Covid patients using up all the resources at the hospital. But the fact that I'm not protected if I'm vaccinated really does not make sense.