Are You the Same Person?

[scgal]

Apr 26, 2022 13:12:47 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

Apr 26, 2022 13:06:26 GMT -5 scgal said:

Why are her concerns not legitimate? Just because you, I, or anyone else may not see it that way that does not make it illegitimate. Not trusting the science does not make it illegitimate. I have struggled with this myself then finally can to the point of neutrality. It's really a persons personal choice what they want to do no matter how or what brought them to that conclusion. 

The "concern" that the measles vaccine causes autism is n ot legitimate. The idea that you need antibiotics to treat a viral infection is not "legitimate". The idea that the vaccines were developed by big pharma, which makes it "concerning" is not legitimate. They are all not legitimate because they are not fact based and can be refuted. The idea that the vaccines are suspect because they can change our DNA is not legitimate. I could go on. If she has "legitimate" concerns, she can lay them out so they can be addressed.

Just like the concern about voter fraud is not "legitimate" because it has been shown to occur in very few instances.

Not everything people are "concerned" about is legitimate.

I would disagree. It may not be logical but it still can be a legitimate reason to that person. What you are saying is as long as there is scientific proof that shows the opposite of the concern then then its illegitimate. That is false statement in itself as we all see that science keeps evolving on this issue.

[pulmonarymd]

Apr 26, 2022 13:21:34 GMT -5 laterbloomer said:

Apr 26, 2022 13:16:32 GMT -5 NomoreDramaQ1015 said:

You refusing cancer treatment only affects you though. You cannot give me cancer if you choose to forgo treatment.

I may disagree with you but in the end you face the consequences.

Not vaccinating puts others at risk and expects society to deal with the consequences of your choices.

We humans live in a society. To evolve to that point over the course of millenia concessions have been made weighing the lives of many against the few.

It's not perfect and both sides use the debate for their own ends.

I'm not going to respect your Decision to pit my health and my life at risk.

You are free to make that choice but you don't have the right to escape the consequences of it. If it means you stay masked or can't go somewhere then you need to accept it.[it.

THATis a huge part of my beef. You don'thavethe right to make a choicethen escape all ownershipof it.
Just as if in 20 years the COVID vaccine caused cancer. I chose to take the risk based on known information. That's a potential consequence of ot.

I still don't get why I'm not protected when I have been vaccinated. That just makes no sense to me. I do understand how annoying it is to have Covid patients using up all the resources at the hospital. But the fact that I'm not protected if I'm vaccinated really does not make sense.

It has to do with the way our immune system works and the virus behaves. The vaccine was directed at the original form of the virus. It worked spectacularly well. The virus evolved in a way to try to avoid the effectiveness of the virus. It has been partially successful, in that breakthrough infections are more common, but hospitalizations and deaths still are prevented for the most part. Just like with cancer treatment. Cancer cells mutate, and chemotherapy that did work may no longer be effective. 

The flu vaccine works in the same way. They decrease your risk of death and hospitalization, but may not prevent the flu.

Millions of people worldwide have died to this point. Asking for perfection negates the improvement that these vaccines provide. People are treated with the best therapies we have, yet do not respond as well as we like all the time. This is no different.

[nidena]

Apr 26, 2022 13:21:34 GMT -5 laterbloomer said:

Apr 26, 2022 13:16:32 GMT -5 NomoreDramaQ1015 said:

You refusing cancer treatment only affects you though. You cannot give me cancer if you choose to forgo treatment.

I may disagree with you but in the end you face the consequences.

Not vaccinating puts others at risk and expects society to deal with the consequences of your choices.

We humans live in a society. To evolve to that point over the course of millenia concessions have been made weighing the lives of many against the few.

It's not perfect and both sides use the debate for their own ends.

I'm not going to respect your Decision to pit my health and my life at risk.

You are free to make that choice but you don't have the right to escape the consequences of it. If it means you stay masked or can't go somewhere then you need to accept it.[it.

THATis a huge part of my beef. You don'thavethe right to make a choicethen escape all ownershipof it.
Just as if in 20 years the COVID vaccine caused cancer. I chose to take the risk based on known information. That's a potential consequence of ot.

I still don't get why I'm not protected when I have been vaccinated. That just makes no sense to me. I do understand how annoying it is to have Covid patients using up all the resources at the hospital. But the fact that I'm not protected if I'm vaccinated really does not make sense.

You're protected against whatever strain that the vaccine was designed for but, like the flu, those little rascals evolve...just enough to survive...like the flu.  That's why so many people get the flu shot every year.  I think covid is on its fifth or sixth strain (could be more but I'm not in the arena that warrants paying attention) which is why the vaccines need boosters.

This is one of those things where I say "I don't fully understand it but I'll trust the thousands of SMEs who are looking out for the populace."

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

Apr 26, 2022 13:21:34 GMT -5 laterbloomer said:

Apr 26, 2022 13:16:32 GMT -5 NomoreDramaQ1015 said:

You refusing cancer treatment only affects you though. You cannot give me cancer if you choose to forgo treatment.

I may disagree with you but in the end you face the consequences.

Not vaccinating puts others at risk and expects society to deal with the consequences of your choices.

We humans live in a society. To evolve to that point over the course of millenia concessions have been made weighing the lives of many against the few.

It's not perfect and both sides use the debate for their own ends.

I'm not going to respect your Decision to pit my health and my life at risk.

You are free to make that choice but you don't have the right to escape the consequences of it. If it means you stay masked or can't go somewhere then you need to accept it.[it.

THATis a huge part of my beef. You don'thavethe right to make a choicethen escape all ownershipof it.
Just as if in 20 years the COVID vaccine caused cancer. I chose to take the risk based on known information. That's a potential consequence of ot.

I still don't get why I'm not protected when I have been vaccinated. That just makes no sense to me. I do understand how annoying it is to have Covid patients using up all the resources at the hospital. But the fact that I'm not protected if I'm vaccinated really does not make sense.

You are protected from a very high possibility of dying or hospitizaltion.

Viruses evolve just like anything else on the planet. Most have multiple hosts so while COVID is hanging out in a bat it mutates. Then it leaps to me and mutates. Then it goes back to bats.

The only disease we eradicated is smallpox because we humans are the only vector.

Our immune system rely on exposure and memory. The flu shot is cumulative. I may get fairly sick but after 15years plus natural exposure I'm highly unlikely to die.

Flu has been around long enough it's reached a balance between doing it's thing in my body, spreading itself to my coworkers and not killing us all before we can share.

Ebola has not. It cannot get far because it kills its host off too fast. You need intimate contact.

We have been in this dance with germs since the dawn of time. Eventually we reach an unsteady truce and society moves on.

This COVID strain is novel. We have not had exposure. We could do it the hard way like the plague or use modern science to reach that truce.

There will always be people who get sick. There will always be people who get so sick they require care or die.

That's how nature works. That is how disease and evolution work. We humans have managed to evolve to where we don't have to go find a rock to die behind so we don't put everyone at risk of being eaten. We have options

This is a drive by sum up. There is an entire field devoted to immunity and another disease evolution and so on.

Survival of the Sickest is a good pop culture book as an entry to the subject.

[haapai]

Apr 26, 2022 13:27:37 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

It has to do with the way our immune system works and the virus behaves. The vaccine was directed at the original form of the virus. It worked spectacularly well. The virus evolved in a way to try to avoid the effectiveness of the virus. It has been partially successful, in that breakthrough infections are more common, but hospitalizations and deaths still are prevented for the most part. Just like with cancer treatment. Cancer cells mutate, and chemotherapy that did work may no longer be effective. 

The flu vaccine works in the same way. They decrease your risk of death and hospitalization, but may not prevent the flu.

Millions of people worldwide have died to this point. Asking for perfection negates the improvement that these vaccines provide. People are treated with the best therapies we have, yet do not respond as well as we like all the time. This is no different.

This is not a proud moment for you PMD. 

First of all, the second "virus" in the bolded sentence is probably supposed to be "vaccine".

Secondly, I think that you are over-estimating how much the viruses evolved to get around the existing vaccines.  Most of them emerged in environments (both places and times) where few were vaccinated.  Go down the list of named variants if you doubt me.  Immunity from prior infection may have been a much more significant factor than vaccine-derived immunity. 

ETA:  I make mistakes too.  That last sentence is garbled.  I'm ashamed of it too. 

Getting around immunity from prior infection may have exerted much more selection pressure on emerging variants than getting around immunity from vaccines. 

[tallguy]

Apr 26, 2022 13:21:34 GMT -5 laterbloomer said:

Apr 26, 2022 13:16:32 GMT -5 NomoreDramaQ1015 said:

You refusing cancer treatment only affects you though. You cannot give me cancer if you choose to forgo treatment.

I may disagree with you but in the end you face the consequences.

Not vaccinating puts others at risk and expects society to deal with the consequences of your choices.

We humans live in a society. To evolve to that point over the course of millenia concessions have been made weighing the lives of many against the few.

It's not perfect and both sides use the debate for their own ends.

I'm not going to respect your Decision to pit my health and my life at risk.

You are free to make that choice but you don't have the right to escape the consequences of it. If it means you stay masked or can't go somewhere then you need to accept it.[it.

THATis a huge part of my beef. You don'thavethe right to make a choicethen escape all ownershipof it.
Just as if in 20 years the COVID vaccine caused cancer. I chose to take the risk based on known information. That's a potential consequence of ot.

I still don't get why I'm not protected when I have been vaccinated. That just makes no sense to me. I do understand how annoying it is to have Covid patients using up all the resources at the hospital. But the fact that I'm not protected if I'm vaccinated really does not make sense.

I would suggest that if the risk of severe illness or death is 15-20 times higher if you are unvaccinated means that you ARE protected to a much greater extent than you apparently believe.  To expect perfection in a short time with a basically brand-new disease is what doesn't make sense.  Science always adapts, and it is the same here.  In an emergent situation the first priority is not to come up with a perfect and final solution.  Too many people die in the meantime.  Fix the emergency as best you can, then work on the rest.  That does not at all mean that the initial responses are not good solutions, even if they are intermediate ones.

[pulmonarymd]

Apr 26, 2022 13:40:36 GMT -5 haapai said:

Apr 26, 2022 13:27:37 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

It has to do with the way our immune system works and the virus behaves. The vaccine was directed at the original form of the virus. It worked spectacularly well. The virus evolved in a way to try to avoid the effectiveness of the virus. It has been partially successful, in that breakthrough infections are more common, but hospitalizations and deaths still are prevented for the most part. Just like with cancer treatment. Cancer cells mutate, and chemotherapy that did work may no longer be effective. 

The flu vaccine works in the same way. They decrease your risk of death and hospitalization, but may not prevent the flu.

Millions of people worldwide have died to this point. Asking for perfection negates the improvement that these vaccines provide. People are treated with the best therapies we have, yet do not respond as well as we like all the time. This is no different.

This is not a proud moment for you PMD. 

First of all, the second "virus" in the bolded sentence is probably supposed to be "vaccine".

Secondly, I think that you are over-estimating how much the viruses evolved to get around the existing vaccines.  Most of them emerged in environments (both places and times) where few were vaccinated.  Go down the list of named variants if you doubt me.  Immunity from prior infection may have been a much more significant factor than vaccine-derived immunity. 

ETA:  I make mistakes too.  That last sentence is garbled.  I'm ashamed of it too. 

Getting around immunity from prior infection may have exerted much more selection pressure on emerging variants than getting around immunity from vaccines. 

Thanks, brain and hands did not keep up. How this adapted is an interesting phenomenon. You are correct, it may have been driven by avoiding the response to a previous question. I may have been too narrow minded when I was typing. It doesn't change the underlying science, just the reason for why it happened.

Shouldn't have stayed up late to watch the baseball game.

[tallguy]

Apr 26, 2022 13:23:02 GMT -5 scgal said:

Apr 26, 2022 13:12:47 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

The "concern" that the measles vaccine causes autism is n ot legitimate. The idea that you need antibiotics to treat a viral infection is not "legitimate". The idea that the vaccines were developed by big pharma, which makes it "concerning" is not legitimate. They are all not legitimate because they are not fact based and can be refuted. The idea that the vaccines are suspect because they can change our DNA is not legitimate. I could go on. If she has "legitimate" concerns, she can lay them out so they can be addressed.

Just like the concern about voter fraud is not "legitimate" because it has been shown to occur in very few instances.

Not everything people are "concerned" about is legitimate.

I would disagree. It may not be logical but it still can be a legitimate reason to that person. What you are saying is as long as there is scientific proof that shows the opposite of the concern then then its illegitimate. That is false statement in itself as we all see that science keeps evolving on this issue.

And I would disagree with that as well.  I could probably list 100 if not 1000 things off the top of my head that Trump supporters believe about the man, even though every claim can be easily disproved.  That does not make those beliefs legitimate.  It means that those people can pretty easily be labeled morons.  A legitimate concern would be one where the facts are undetermined, not one where someone merely ignores the facts that exist.

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

Efficacy in the high 90s and even if you stopped at two or one to still have close to 80% Efficacy is pretty damn amazing.

One and only one has ever been 100% effective. The fact that humans are the only vectors is why.

And also keep in mind COVID is the only virus we've obsessively tracked and tested even asymptomatic people.

If you followed me around shoving swabs up my nose or elsewhere in my lifetime I'd probably poo up positive for quite a few things we vaccinate against at some point.

But you'd never know otherwise because either I don't get sick at all or it's so mild nobody registers it's what I had.

And that's due to me being vaccinated. None of them keep me from ever getting it. They keep me from being sick and the viral load low enough I don't harm others.

From.a data standpoint I get all the tests but without anyone to explain context all it did was fan flames and provide ammo as the media ran with it 24/7.

[haapai]

Apr 26, 2022 13:21:34 GMT -5 laterbloomer said:

Apr 26, 2022 13:16:32 GMT -5 NomoreDramaQ1015 said:

You refusing cancer treatment only affects you though. You cannot give me cancer if you choose to forgo treatment.

I may disagree with you but in the end you face the consequences.

Not vaccinating puts others at risk and expects society to deal with the consequences of your choices.

We humans live in a society. To evolve to that point over the course of millenia concessions have been made weighing the lives of many against the few.

It's not perfect and both sides use the debate for their own ends.

I'm not going to respect your Decision to pit my health and my life at risk.

You are free to make that choice but you don't have the right to escape the consequences of it. If it means you stay masked or can't go somewhere then you need to accept it.[it.

THATis a huge part of my beef. You don'thavethe right to make a choicethen escape all ownershipof it.
Just as if in 20 years the COVID vaccine caused cancer. I chose to take the risk based on known information. That's a potential consequence of ot.

I still don't get why I'm not protected when I have been vaccinated. That just makes no sense to me. I do understand how annoying it is to have Covid patients using up all the resources at the hospital. But the fact that I'm not protected if I'm vaccinated really does not make sense.

I sorta feel for you here.  I think that the answer is that we have really wildly oversold vaccines by using the story of smallpox to explain them. 

Smallpox was (or is) an unusual disease.  Like measles, it generally conferred sterilizing immunity on anyone who contracted it, which just means that if you've survived a bout of it, you won't get it again.  Not all diseases are like this. 

The vaccine that eventually wiped out smallpox was also slightly miraculous.  It worked damn near 100% of the time, was believed to work for at least 20 years, gave darned near instantaneous immunity, and could even be administered post-infection (in which case it significantly reduced the severity of disease.)

The stars aligned for us with that disease.  It was a g------ miracle vaccine and we've been overselling and simplifying how well vaccines work ever since. 

I'm lucky.  I was vaccinated against smallpox as a kid and I also had a breakthrough case of rubella as a kid.  That gave me a bit of curiosity regarding how vaccines worked and that has been enormously helpful in the last few years. 

P.S.  I've been asking my mom about the breakthrough rubella for a while but she's sketchy on the details.  I may have gotten vaccinated against it in a short window when it was being touted as a one-shot vaccine.  It's also possible that I was supposed to get a booster but did not because I was in an underdeveloped country when the booster was due.  It's also entirely possible that I had a breakthrough infection precisely because I was living in a place where vaccination rates were low and the disease was pretty rampant. 

[pulmonarymd]

Apr 26, 2022 13:23:02 GMT -5 scgal said:

Apr 26, 2022 13:12:47 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

The "concern" that the measles vaccine causes autism is n ot legitimate. The idea that you need antibiotics to treat a viral infection is not "legitimate". The idea that the vaccines were developed by big pharma, which makes it "concerning" is not legitimate. They are all not legitimate because they are not fact based and can be refuted. The idea that the vaccines are suspect because they can change our DNA is not legitimate. I could go on. If she has "legitimate" concerns, she can lay them out so they can be addressed.

Just like the concern about voter fraud is not "legitimate" because it has been shown to occur in very few instances.

Not everything people are "concerned" about is legitimate.

I would disagree. It may not be logical but it still can be a legitimate reason to that person. What you are saying is as long as there is scientific proof that shows the opposite of the concern then then its illegitimate. That is false statement in itself as we all see that science keeps evolving on this issue.

Sorry, not every concern is legitimate. If they are factually wrong, the are illegitimate. Vaccines do not cause autism. Anyone who has a "concern" that it does has an illegitimate concern. There was no significant voter fraud in 2020. Thinking otherwise is illegitimate.

Bending over backwards to mollify people with false/illegitimate beliefs has ben a significant negative for society. People who continue to believe and push things that are not true should not be accommodated. And just because science evolves does not make wrong ideas any less wrong(see vaccines and autism).

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

I should be add every person's immune system is different. It is unique to you.

80% efficacy means that in a group of 100 people at least 80 of them will achieve the desired immunity. 20 will not for various reasons.

That does not make a vaccine a failure. It's just dumb evolutionary luck if you are in that group of 20.

Me being in the 80 protects you because now I'm not spreading germs to you. So you may still get sick but it's less likely and possibly less severe than if none of us were vaccinated.

Or we do it the hard way. Plague. Wiped out a third of the known world. I would like to think on an ethical level we've gotten to the point that is not an acceptable option.

Vaccines speed it up with.a lot less death and suffering. To me it's a no Brainerd.

I may be in the unlucky 20 but if the other 80 cooperate I'm reasonably safe.

When the 80 start refusing that's when things break down and efficacy starts to plummet. Hence the rise in measles cases in the US when for a moment it was almost eradicated.

[jerseygirl]

Apr 26, 2022 13:21:34 GMT -5 laterbloomer said:

Apr 26, 2022 13:16:32 GMT -5 NomoreDramaQ1015 said:

You refusing cancer treatment only affects you though. You cannot give me cancer if you choose to forgo treatment.

I may disagree with you but in the end you face the consequences.

Not vaccinating puts others at risk and expects society to deal with the consequences of your choices.

We humans live in a society. To evolve to that point over the course of millenia concessions have been made weighing the lives of many against the few.

It's not perfect and both sides use the debate for their own ends.

I'm not going to respect your Decision to pit my health and my life at risk.

You are free to make that choice but you don't have the right to escape the consequences of it. If it means you stay masked or can't go somewhere then you need to accept it.[it.

THATis a huge part of my beef. You don'thavethe right to make a choicethen escape all ownershipof it.
Just as if in 20 years the COVID vaccine caused cancer. I chose to take the risk based on known information. That's a potential consequence of ot.

I still don't get why I'm not protected when I have been vaccinated. That just makes no sense to me. I do understand how annoying it is to have Covid patients using up all the resources at the hospital. But the fact that I'm not protected if I'm vaccinated really does not make sense.

But you ARE protected - against severe illness and death not completely but to an almost miraculous amount
I am and will always be grateful for the Covid vaccines

[Deleted]

GOOOOD GRIEF!

I guess another way that I have changed is that I’m fucking tired of talking about the vaccines. I have some of the same concerns and questions as laterbloomer, but I decided a long time ago that it’s best for me to not even voice those concerns or ask those questions, because I’ll just be told how stupid I am for having questions and concerns. I refuse IRL to even discuss the vaccines, unless I am dealing with someone that has the right to know my status because I am entering their place of business or their homes. 

We have several other threads discussing the vaccines and whatnot, I’m not sure how this thread became focused on the same old shit.

[nidena]

Apr 26, 2022 14:43:55 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

Apr 26, 2022 13:23:02 GMT -5 scgal said:

I would disagree. It may not be logical but it still can be a legitimate reason to that person. What you are saying is as long as there is scientific proof that shows the opposite of the concern then then its illegitimate. That is false statement in itself as we all see that science keeps evolving on this issue.

Sorry, not every concern is legitimate. If they are factually wrong, the are illegitimate. Vaccines do not cause autism. Anyone who has a "concern" that it does has an illegitimate concern. There was no significant voter fraud in 2020. Thinking otherwise is illegitimate.

Bending over backwards to mollify people with false/illegitimate beliefs has ben a significant negative for society. People who continue to believe and push things that are not true should not be accommodated. And just because science evolves does not make wrong ideas any less wrong(see vaccines and autism).

Maybe the concern is vaccine injury.

They're a rare occurrence but they do happen.

Are there indicators for higher likelihood of vaccine injury? (serious question because this has always been in the back of my mind)

Or is like autism and Tourette's and just a luck of the draw with some combination of mutant genes? (Both my offspring inherited some mutant genes from me so this is another fascination because I have neither autism nor Tourette's but they each have one)

[laterbloomer]

Apr 26, 2022 15:12:05 GMT -5 jerseygirl said:

Apr 26, 2022 13:21:34 GMT -5 laterbloomer said:

I still don't get why I'm not protected when I have been vaccinated. That just makes no sense to me. I do understand how annoying it is to have Covid patients using up all the resources at the hospital. But the fact that I'm not protected if I'm vaccinated really does not make sense.

But you ARE protected - against severe illness and death not completely but to an almost miraculous amount
I am and will always be grateful for the Covid vaccines

I mean why I'm not protected against people that aren't vaccinated.

[haapai]

Apr 26, 2022 15:55:41 GMT -5 @pinkcshmere said:

GOOOOD GRIEF!

I guess another way that I have changed is that I’m fucking tired of talking about the vaccines. I have some of the same concerns and questions as laterbloomer , but I decided a long time ago that it’s best for me to not even voice those concerns or ask those questions, because I’ll just be told how stupid I am for having questions and concerns. I refuse IRL to even discuss the vaccines, unless I am dealing with someone that has the right to know my status because I am entering their place of business or their homes. 

We have several other threads discussing the vaccines and whatnot, I’m not sure how this thread became focused on the same old shit.

I'm sorry Pink.  I tried ignoring them and staying on topic, but they just talked so much and you said almost nothing.  Eventually, I got bored and started responding. 

I wish that I were kidding. 

[Opti]

Apr 26, 2022 15:55:41 GMT -5 @pinkcshmere said:

GOOOOD GRIEF!

I guess another way that I have changed is that I’m fucking tired of talking about the vaccines. I have some of the same concerns and questions as laterbloomer , but I decided a long time ago that it’s best for me to not even voice those concerns or ask those questions, because I’ll just be told how stupid I am for having questions and concerns. I refuse IRL to even discuss the vaccines, unless I am dealing with someone that has the right to know my status because I am entering their place of business or their homes. 

We have several other threads discussing the vaccines and whatnot, I’m not sure how this thread became focused on the same old shit.

I think for some of us its hard to divorce the changes from Covid, the vaccine, and masks. I recently went to my first in person choir practice. It was weird because I wore a KN95 mask and didn't drink any water during the whole practice. I'm amazed my voice kind of held out that long. 

Pre-Covid I would have just been nervous about meeting people and singing with a group that's been together for a while. Now it feels like many situations comes with being aware of potential exposure to Covid. 

[pulmonarymd]

Apr 26, 2022 16:17:58 GMT -5 laterbloomer said:

Apr 26, 2022 15:12:05 GMT -5 jerseygirl said:

But you ARE protected - against severe illness and death not completely but to an almost miraculous amount
I am and will always be grateful for the Covid vaccines

I mean why I'm not protected against people that aren't vaccinated.

Because nothing in medicine is 100%. It is quite effective at preventing severe disease and death, less so at preventing infection entirely.

[pulmonarymd]

Apr 26, 2022 15:55:41 GMT -5 @pinkcshmere said:

GOOOOD GRIEF!

I guess another way that I have changed is that I’m fucking tired of talking about the vaccines. I have some of the same concerns and questions as laterbloomer , but I decided a long time ago that it’s best for me to not even voice those concerns or ask those questions, because I’ll just be told how stupid I am for having questions and concerns. I refuse IRL to even discuss the vaccines, unless I am dealing with someone that has the right to know my status because I am entering their place of business or their homes. 

We have several other threads discussing the vaccines and whatnot, I’m not sure how this thread became focused on the same old shit.

Having concerns when the vaccines were first approved under an EUA, I understand. Someone needed to go first, and given a shortage, waiting and letting others go first, sure. Now? Over 1 billion doses have been distributed. These are among the most studied and evaluated medications of all time. No other intervention in medicine has as much data in such a short time. Having these concerns now is not respecting all the data we have gotten. People are treated with medications and other interventions that have been less widely used without a single concern, many of them are much more dangerous. It is no longer a debate on the safety and effectiveness of the vaccines.

[tallguy]

Apr 26, 2022 16:17:58 GMT -5 laterbloomer said:

Apr 26, 2022 15:12:05 GMT -5 jerseygirl said:

But you ARE protected - against severe illness and death not completely but to an almost miraculous amount
I am and will always be grateful for the Covid vaccines

I mean why I'm not protected against people that aren't vaccinated.

Are you asking why there is a possibility of being infected even after vaccination?  Doesn't that seem an unrealistic standard to try and meet?  This was a new virus, killing a lot of people relatively quickly.  To have the efficacy these vaccines have in the relatively short time frame in which they were developed is remarkable.  The vaccine reduces your chance of being infected, reduces your chance of spreading the virus to others, and greatly reduces your chance of contracting serious illness or dying, and have been administered to hundreds of millions of people with a very small number of negative reactions.  Is that really not enough? 
 
The vaccine is 94% effective.  That still leaves millions of people in the other 6% just in this country.  It can never be 100%.  People are too different and their immune systems and responses will not be identical.  That does not mean that the vaccine doesn't work.  Expecting 100% is not realistic, nor was it ever claimed that would be the case.  Gun shots to the head are not 100% effective against continuing to be alive, but I doubt you would test those odds so readily.  

[Deleted]

Apr 26, 2022 17:00:22 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

Apr 26, 2022 15:55:41 GMT -5 @pinkcshmere said:

GOOOOD GRIEF!

I guess another way that I have changed is that I’m fucking tired of talking about the vaccines. I have some of the same concerns and questions as laterbloomer , but I decided a long time ago that it’s best for me to not even voice those concerns or ask those questions, because I’ll just be told how stupid I am for having questions and concerns. I refuse IRL to even discuss the vaccines, unless I am dealing with someone that has the right to know my status because I am entering their place of business or their homes. 

We have several other threads discussing the vaccines and whatnot, I’m not sure how this thread became focused on the same old shit.

Having concerns when the vaccines were first approved under an EUA, I understand. Someone needed to go first, and given a shortage, waiting and letting others go first, sure. Now? Over 1 billion doses have been distributed. These are among the most studied and evaluated medications of all time. No other intervention in medicine has as much data in such a short time. Having these concerns now is not respecting all the data we have gotten. People are treated with medications and other interventions that have been less widely used without a single concern, many of them are much more dangerous. It is no longer a debate on the safety and effectiveness of the vaccines.

I tend to be one who follows the “rules”, even when the rules don’t really make sense to me, but the case has been made that those rules are good for our society. I have and will buck the system though, when it comes down to something that is important to me.

I do appreciate the time and energy you spend trying to explain things to the people on this board.

But that doesn’t mean I must accept what you and other medical professionals and scientists say as the gospel truth. I’m not trying to argue with you, I’m just saying that if we prefer a population of people that are willing to think for themselves, we have to accept that not everybody is going to just follow what the “experts “ say we need to do without thinking about the issue themselves.

Even though I avoid participating as much as possible, I don’t have an issue with debates about vaccines. I was just expressing my dismay that that is what this thread devolved into, when I was asking about something else in the OP.

[tallguy]

Apr 26, 2022 17:53:37 GMT -5 @pinkcshmere said:

Apr 26, 2022 17:00:22 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

Having concerns when the vaccines were first approved under an EUA, I understand. Someone needed to go first, and given a shortage, waiting and letting others go first, sure. Now? Over 1 billion doses have been distributed. These are among the most studied and evaluated medications of all time. No other intervention in medicine has as much data in such a short time. Having these concerns now is not respecting all the data we have gotten. People are treated with medications and other interventions that have been less widely used without a single concern, many of them are much more dangerous. It is no longer a debate on the safety and effectiveness of the vaccines.

I tend to be one who follows the “rules”, even when the rules don’t really make sense to me, but the case has been made that those rules are good for our society. I have and will buck the system though, when it comes down to something that is important to me.

I do appreciate the time and energy you spend trying to explain things to the people on this board.

But that doesn’t mean I must accept what you and other medical professionals and scientists say as the gospel truth. I’m not trying to argue with you, I’m just saying that if we prefer a population of people that are willing to think for themselves, we have to accept that not everybody is going to just follow what the “experts “ say we need to do without thinking about the issue themselves.

Even though I avoid participating as much as possible, I don’t have an issue with debates about vaccines. I was just expressing my dismay that that is what this thread devolved into, when I was asking about something else in the OP.

And you should question things.  I fully support and will defend the right of any individual to not get the vaccine if they don't want to.  A free society demands that.  But freedom comes with responsibility and people still have to take responsibility for their choices.  If the best scientific evidence is that not being vaccinated puts others at risk of serious harm, then I will defend just as strongly the right of society to bar those persons or limit their participation in society for making that choice.  You are free to choose.  You are not free from consequences.  If you can live with the consequences, do whatever you want.

[laterbloomer]

Apr 26, 2022 17:11:50 GMT -5 tallguy said:

Apr 26, 2022 16:17:58 GMT -5 laterbloomer said:

I mean why I'm not protected against people that aren't vaccinated.

Are you asking why there is a possibility of being infected even after vaccination?  

No, I am asking why it makes s difference to me whether or not other people are vaccinated if I am vaccinated.

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

Apr 26, 2022 19:02:59 GMT -5 laterbloomer said:

Apr 26, 2022 17:11:50 GMT -5 tallguy said:

Are you asking why there is a possibility of being infected even after vaccination?  

No, I am asking why it makes s difference to me whether or not other people are vaccinated if I am vaccinated.

I'll use measles for this one. Before the rise of the anti vaccine movement we were very close to eliminating it in the US.

With that many people vaccinated or still living who acquired immunity it didn't matter so much in the states.

Till pockets of enough non vaccinated people popped up and it started to spread.

They have no acquired immunity so now measles is free to mutate.

The more it mutates the higher the chances it will evade your immunity even if vaccinated.

I may not get as sick but that may change too if immunity breaks down enough.

Fortunately measles is a very slow mutating virus and been around awhile.so my risk is still pretty low

Covid is novel and is mutating rapidly as a new virus will. You are at risk because while your body will likely suppress it enough you get somewhat sick or not at all it's doing a happy evolutionary dance in the unvaccinated person.

In the case currently for covid that means a high chance it mutates to where it evadesyoyr immunity and now you are back in the boat you were before.

Viruses trend towards becoming more contagious and less deadly as time goes by BUT till wereach that awkward equilibrium there is always the chance you're going to encounter patient zero of a much more deadly version before it's outcompeted.

The more people refuse to vaccinated the more risk this happens and the longer it takes for us to find a truce.

We end up doing things the hard way. Before vaccination you didn't have a choice.

With vaccinations we're choosing the hard way.

[tallguy]

Apr 26, 2022 19:02:59 GMT -5 laterbloomer said:

Apr 26, 2022 17:11:50 GMT -5 tallguy said:

Are you asking why there is a possibility of being infected even after vaccination?  

No, I am asking why it makes s difference to me whether or not other people are vaccinated if I am vaccinated.

First would be because you can still be infected.  More people being vaccinated would lower the risk of passing on the infection but it would not eliminate it entirely.  On a larger scale, everyone else being vaccinated would rapidly get us to the point where the virus could possibly be effectively eliminated in an area.  Those who are against the vaccines, for whatever reason, are the ones keeping this going and preventing a true return to normalcy.  

[chiver78]

Apr 26, 2022 19:02:59 GMT -5 laterbloomer said:

Apr 26, 2022 17:11:50 GMT -5 tallguy said:

Are you asking why there is a possibility of being infected even after vaccination?  

No, I am asking why it makes s difference to me whether or not other people are vaccinated if I am vaccinated.

as a healthy person, it doesn't. on the flip side, as someone with the immune system of a lab rat, I appreciate everyone who can vax for whatever they can. I physicallt can't vax against everything for a number of reasons, but as soon as it was clear I could via mRNA, I did as soon as I could. it protected me, and it allowed me to be part of the herd immunity that would protect folks who couldn't, as well as my dad - a cancer survivor. his immune system is as f'd as mine.

as a few have already said - vaccines are part of a social contract. there's been enough doses inoculated to bolster the EUA applications. why is there such resistance to a vaccine from the American population that (generally) partakes of so many and varied cardiac/GI/weight loss/I could keep going...? pharmaceuticals?

[seriousthistime]

Have I changed over the past few years?  You bet.  My stress level is much higher than it was when I was working (retired for a year now). 

A good part of the population has lost critical thinking skills  After four years of Trump I hoped we could get back on track to a time when facts were facts.  Now I worry that we are lost and won't find our way for many years.  Conspiracy theories, science deniers, and rejection of the collective wisdom of experts are the rule of the day.  

It is difficult some days to stay optimistic.  I worry about the future of this country and this planet. 

[The Walk of the Penguin Mich]

Apr 26, 2022 13:21:34 GMT -5 laterbloomer said:

Apr 26, 2022 13:16:32 GMT -5 NomoreDramaQ1015 said:

You refusing cancer treatment only affects you though. You cannot give me cancer if you choose to forgo treatment.

I may disagree with you but in the end you face the consequences.

Not vaccinating puts others at risk and expects society to deal with the consequences of your choices.

We humans live in a society. To evolve to that point over the course of millenia concessions have been made weighing the lives of many against the few.

It's not perfect and both sides use the debate for their own ends.

I'm not going to respect your Decision to pit my health and my life at risk.

You are free to make that choice but you don't have the right to escape the consequences of it. If it means you stay masked or can't go somewhere then you need to accept it.[it.

THATis a huge part of my beef. You don'thavethe right to make a choicethen escape all ownershipof it.
Just as if in 20 years the COVID vaccine caused cancer. I chose to take the risk based on known information. That's a potential consequence of ot.

I still don't get why I'm not protected when I have been vaccinated. That just makes no sense to me. I do understand how annoying it is to have Covid patients using up all the resources at the hospital. But the fact that I'm not protected if I'm vaccinated really does not make sense.

Because the virus has mutated from its original form.  While there is partial protection right now, it is protecting from hospitalization and death.  When science catches up to the mutations……and we are on our 4th one in 2 years……then we might see fewer cases in immunized people.

Again, this is the reason why we get flu vaccines every years…..and why there are multiple strains (used to be 3, now 4 I believe) in each vaccine.

This isn’t a hard concept.  Coronavirus is different from others.  Some mutate a lot, some very little.  Science has to adjust, which has thrown a monkey wrench it things.  So as a result, we have to figure out how to make a better vaccine.  In the meantime, fewer people are dying with what we have.  That’s a good thing.

[Deleted]

Apr 26, 2022 15:55:41 GMT -5 @pinkcshmere said:

GOOOOD GRIEF!

I guess another way that I have changed is that I’m fucking tired of talking about the vaccines. I have some of the same concerns and questions as laterbloomer , but I decided a long time ago that it’s best for me to not even voice those concerns or ask those questions, because I’ll just be told how stupid I am for having questions and concerns. I refuse IRL to even discuss the vaccines, unless I am dealing with someone that has the right to know my status because I am entering their place of business or their homes. 

We have several other threads discussing the vaccines and whatnot, I’m not sure how this thread became focused on the same old shit.

Yeah, that!

I am amazed I able to function in every day life. I do my job, pay my bills, contribute to society, but on these very boards, I am told how stupid I am.