MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Jan 14, 2017 11:31:57 GMT -5
When a woman accepts a salary for a job, who is at fault for her working at that salary, the woman or the employer? You're totally right. All the evidence that women are offered lower salaries than men to begin with is her fault. And it's totally the women's fault that the start of her negotiating is at a lower bar then men because of the lower initial offer. And the evidence that women are not looked on favorably for negotiating is totally her fault. And is totally her fault that even with negotiating the men are still likely to end with higher salaries. You have to be valuable and have the savings to be able to resign in order to negotiate. So I guess the rest of us are SOL. Completely our fault.
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NancysSummerSip
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Post by NancysSummerSip on Jan 14, 2017 12:42:39 GMT -5
I didn't quite pull a Dark as I have to give 6 months notice or I forfeit a pretty generous non-compete.
I have never in my over 20 years professional career felt that I was paid less because I was a woman. But that changed last week.
Six months ago a person in Finance was promoted to run the Finance Department of a sister company. Sadly he doesn't have the skills to do it. His reporting is a complete disaster and he actually missed the reporting deadline last month (with our parent company this is just not acceptable) and screwed it up several months in a row before that. Because of this, my boss has been calling on me to clean up his mess. This guy does not report to me yet my boss seems to hold me responsible for his fucked up work. I'm not a person that will sit and take it so boss and I have gotten into it a few times and he admitted he was wrong.
Anywho, screw-up just got a huge raise which now puts him $10k ahead of me. I found that out on the 29th and I handed in my resignation notice on 12/30. I am not one that will sue or do anything like that. Quite frankly, I'm very good at what I do (as evidenced by the fact that my boss keeps coming to me) so fuck them if they don't value me. I will take my skills to a company that values me.
Of course, once I handed in my resignation my boss starts yammering that I'm jumping the gun because "there is something big in store for you...but I can't tell you until we have approval from overseas (parent company". I called it BS because it would have been pushed through at the same time.
So now I have to have a meeting with the President next week. I'm still very angry so I'm not even sure what I will say to him when we meet. I am not a whiney person and truly believe that the best way to show a company that they can't do shit like that is to lose good people.
I'm not sure how I feel. I've never quit a job without something lined up. But since I have to give 6 months notice it is damn near impossible to find a company willing to wait 6 months for me. I feel for you. I am resigning from mine on Monday, with two weeks' notice. The abuse, yelling, screaming and stress aimed at me, along with the lack of adequate training and the fact that management has been doing some things that could cost them their state licenses has finally done me in. It's not about money - I will be fine there - it is about sanity. Like you, I will be hearing from the next level up when my letter goes in. I know my Regional will not be happy. Corporate is already mad at my manager for the way the office is being run into the ground, and this will make it worse. Do what you need to do. You have minor children, right? And you are the responsible parent, if I remember correctly. You see to that end of things financially first, then shore up your sanity and move on. I get the non-compete clause (I was under one for the last year; my former employer released me from the second year of it), but you have a pretty solid case of an employer dumping on you for someone else getting it wrong. You've tracked and documented everything, no doubt. Bring it all with you to that meeting. Make it known that this situation is leading to the loss of a great employee (you) and less about someone else being a jerk.
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Jan 14, 2017 12:44:05 GMT -5
I didn't quite pull a Dark as I have to give 6 months notice or I forfeit a pretty generous non-compete.
I have never in my over 20 years professional career felt that I was paid less because I was a woman. But that changed last week.
Six months ago a person in Finance was promoted to run the Finance Department of a sister company. Sadly he doesn't have the skills to do it. His reporting is a complete disaster and he actually missed the reporting deadline last month (with our parent company this is just not acceptable) and screwed it up several months in a row before that. Because of this, my boss has been calling on me to clean up his mess. This guy does not report to me yet my boss seems to hold me responsible for his fucked up work. I'm not a person that will sit and take it so boss and I have gotten into it a few times and he admitted he was wrong.
Anywho, screw-up just got a huge raise which now puts him $10k ahead of me. I found that out on the 29th and I handed in my resignation notice on 12/30. I am not one that will sue or do anything like that. Quite frankly, I'm very good at what I do (as evidenced by the fact that my boss keeps coming to me) so fuck them if they don't value me. I will take my skills to a company that values me.
Of course, once I handed in my resignation my boss starts yammering that I'm jumping the gun because "there is something big in store for you...but I can't tell you until we have approval from overseas (parent company". I called it BS because it would have been pushed through at the same time.
So now I have to have a meeting with the President next week. I'm still very angry so I'm not even sure what I will say to him when we meet. I am not a whiney person and truly believe that the best way to show a company that they can't do shit like that is to lose good people.
I'm not sure how I feel. I've never quit a job without something lined up. But since I have to give 6 months notice it is damn near impossible to find a company willing to wait 6 months for me. I feel for you. I am resigning from mine on Monday, with two weeks' notice. The abuse, yelling, screaming and stress aimed at me, along with the lack of adequate training and the fact that management has been doing some things that could cost them their state licenses has finally done me in. It's not about money - I will be fine there - it is about sanity. Like you, I will be hearing from the next level up when my letter goes in. I know my Regional will not be happy. Corporate is already mad at my manager for the way the office is being run into the ground, and this will make it worse. Do what you need to do. You have minor children, right? And you are the responsible parent, if I remember correctly. You see to that end of things financially first, then shore up your sanity and move on. I get the non-compete clause (I was under one for the last year; my former employer released me from the second year of it), but you have a pretty solid case of an employer dumping on you for someone else getting it wrong. You've tracked and documented everything, no doubt. Bring it all with you to that meeting. Make it known that this situation is leading to the loss of a great employee (you) and less about someone else being a jerk. She's staying because they gave her more money.
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gooddecisions
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Post by gooddecisions on Jan 14, 2017 13:33:28 GMT -5
Congrats Miss T, that is great news! I have never been successful at negotiation either. Maybe it depends on the company and culture. As a manager, nobody has ever negotiated with me. People can't ask for raises when it's out of cycle and for the most part we are told (or told to tell them) they are well-positioned in the range for the role. Employees are not allowed to know the compensation range and are never told. It's strongly discouraged to compare compensation.
So all of this has bothered me over the years and I started buddying up to a Senior Compensation Manager in HR to try to get a little more transparency on the matter. These folks only work with executives. Since I'm up for a promotion, I asked her for some just between me and her advice. I asked her if I got the offer, if it's appropriate to negotiate, ask for 10% more for example. And, she hesitated as she thought about it and said, well that depends on where the offer is in the range. If the offer is well-placed, then it will leave a bad taste with the hiring manager and you probably don't want to start out that way. So I'm thinking to myself, one problem, the range isn't disclosed. And, I'm back to pretty much 0 transparency when it comes to these things. Plus, I'm extra ticked off because if it was an external hire, they probably wouldn't blink at a negotiation.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Jan 14, 2017 13:39:59 GMT -5
Keeping salaries secret means most definitely you are getting the shaft.
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gooddecisions
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Post by gooddecisions on Jan 14, 2017 13:50:06 GMT -5
Keeping salaries secret means most definitely you are getting the shaft. And Miss T's scenario is exactly why companies discourage it!
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Jan 14, 2017 13:52:05 GMT -5
Absolutely. They'd have kept on screwing her over had she not found out.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Jan 14, 2017 14:01:33 GMT -5
Congrats Miss T, that is great news! I have never been successful at negotiation either. Maybe it depends on the company and culture. As a manager, nobody has ever negotiated with me. People can't ask for raises when it's out of cycle and for the most part we are told (or told to tell them) they are well-positioned in the range for the role. Employees are not allowed to know the compensation range and are never told. It's strongly discouraged to compare compensation. So all of this has bothered me over the years and I started buddying up to a Senior Compensation Manager in HR to try to get a little more transparency on the matter. These folks only work with executives. Since I'm up for a promotion, I asked her for some just between me and her advice. I asked her if I got the offer, if it's appropriate to negotiate, ask for 10% more for example. And, she hesitated as she thought about it and said, well that depends on where the offer is in the range. If the offer is well-placed, then it will leave a bad taste with the hiring manager and you probably don't want to start out that way. So I'm thinking to myself, one problem, the range isn't disclosed. And, I'm back to pretty much 0 transparency when it comes to these things. Plus, I'm extra ticked off because if it was an external hire, they probably wouldn't blink at a negotiation. Can you have someone from outside call and ask about the job?
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emma1420
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Post by emma1420 on Jan 14, 2017 14:11:57 GMT -5
I'd say that's not a company that was going to value her anyway. Okay, and when companies keep rescinding their offers after negotiations and she has bills to pay, she will then have to eventually take whatever is offered. Most people dont have the luxury of waiting for a great offer unless they are already employed. But yeah, it's her fault for accepting a lower salary. In my situation, I was already employed and so I didn't need either job. But, if I did need a job then I would have been screwed. And I think that is the challenge that many women face. If they try and negotiate and they need a job having a job offer rescinded is a possibility. I don't think it's that common (and I'm sure it happens to men as well, although I don't know a man who's been in that position), but the fact that it happens has a negative impact. However, I will also continue to try and negotiate every job I am offered. Because employers need to get to used to the fact that women will negotiate as regularly and aggressively as men.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 14, 2017 15:55:24 GMT -5
I wanna be Miss T when i grow up!
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buystoys
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Post by buystoys on Jan 14, 2017 16:01:44 GMT -5
Congrats Miss T!
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beergut
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Post by beergut on Jan 14, 2017 16:10:57 GMT -5
I'd say that's not a company that was going to value her anyway. Either they don't value her, or she overestimates her value to that company.
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beergut
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Post by beergut on Jan 14, 2017 16:16:10 GMT -5
When a woman accepts a salary for a job, who is at fault for her working at that salary, the woman or the employer? You're totally right. All the evidence that women are offered lower salaries than men to begin with is her fault. And it's totally the women's fault that the start of her negotiating is at a lower bar then men because of the lower initial offer. And the evidence that women are not looked on favorably for negotiating is totally her fault. And is totally her fault that even with negotiating the men are still likely to end with higher salaries. It sounds like the answer is for women to tell their bosses they 'identify' as men, and that will fix everything.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Jan 14, 2017 16:16:18 GMT -5
I'd say that's not a company that was going to value her anyway. Either they don't value her, or she overestimates her value to that company. This post was in response to someone who tried to negotiate and had her job offer rescinded not Miss T.
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beergut
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Post by beergut on Jan 14, 2017 16:18:05 GMT -5
Either they don't value her, or she overestimates her value to that company. This post was in response to someone who tried to negotiate and had her job offer rescinded not Miss T. I know, I realized after I posted it that I hit reply to the wrong post. The answer still fits into the flow of conversation, though, because you and I both had the same answer.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Jan 14, 2017 16:20:01 GMT -5
I'm glad it worked out for Miss T but I feel Angry 😡 at those who get shafted by this dirty trick and it is a dirty trick.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Jan 14, 2017 16:20:52 GMT -5
Salaries being kept hush hush is totally designed to screw over hard working employees while rewarding jack asses.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Jan 14, 2017 16:21:37 GMT -5
If you can't even find out what the range is, you know it's because they have plans to screw you.
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steph08
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Post by steph08 on Jan 14, 2017 21:57:02 GMT -5
Ms T - I'm glad you got an awesome raise, and I hope things work out for you!
On the negotiating - I did for my new job, and I am totally not a negotiator or a confrontational person. I got almost 2k more for it (on top of the significant increase in salary from then-current job). I already had a job, so I didn't have much to lose. They offered, I countered with their health insurance costs were $150 more/month and their retirement contribution was 3% less than current job.
I already was being screwed in my current job because I was in the lower third of the payscale after being in that position for 7 years and having a masters degree.
After I saw that during my annual review, on top of another year of no raises and lots of layoffs, I was done.
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Shooby
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Post by Shooby on Jan 14, 2017 23:28:34 GMT -5
Personally, i don't get angry when i find out someone makes more. Instead, that is a greenlight to me to renegotiate or ask for more at my next job, etc.
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tskeeter
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Post by tskeeter on Jan 15, 2017 12:27:05 GMT -5
Congrats Miss T, that is great news! I have never been successful at negotiation either. Maybe it depends on the company and culture. As a manager, nobody has ever negotiated with me. People can't ask for raises when it's out of cycle and for the most part we are told (or told to tell them) they are well-positioned in the range for the role. Employees are not allowed to know the compensation range and are never told. It's strongly discouraged to compare compensation. So all of this has bothered me over the years and I started buddying up to a Senior Compensation Manager in HR to try to get a little more transparency on the matter. These folks only work with executives. Since I'm up for a promotion, I asked her for some just between me and her advice. I asked her if I got the offer, if it's appropriate to negotiate, ask for 10% more for example. And, she hesitated as she thought about it and said, well that depends on where the offer is in the range. If the offer is well-placed, then it will leave a bad taste with the hiring manager and you probably don't want to start out that way. So I'm thinking to myself, one problem, the range isn't disclosed. And, I'm back to pretty much 0 transparency when it comes to these things. Plus, I'm extra ticked off because if it was an external hire, they probably wouldn't blink at a negotiation. When information isn't available from an employer, you need to use other sources to determine the salary range for the job description. There are several internet sites that are helpful. You can look at salary.com, Glassdoor, payscale, and others. By doing your homework ahead of time, you have credible information if an employer tries to lowball you. But, one has to ask, if they will lowball you when the are recruiting you for a job, how else will they screw with you once you are an employee. Cheap is always cheap, and unethical is almost never honest, fair, or equitable.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jan 15, 2017 15:12:59 GMT -5
Thank you. And trust me, I'm VERY happy with the money. I just hope the job itself gets better. I hope it does, too, but you know it won't. You're misersble there and hate the job. You've been complaining about it for years! You got the raise because you caught them. I hope you're still going to look for a new job! The thing is that there could not have been any expectation that I wouldn't find out. I oversee the payroll department so there are calculations that I have to personally review. It was the year end bonus calc that alerted me. So it is either they thought I would accept it or it really was timing As for me hating my job. I agree that odds are nothing will change. But i make a substantial salary for my area and that is hard to just walk away from when I don't have anything to replace it. Don't get me wrong, I won't accept being paid less than a man but I'm also a single mom with two expensive teenagers to take care of!
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jan 15, 2017 15:16:02 GMT -5
Keeping salaries secret means most definitely you are getting the shaft. And Miss T's scenario is exactly why companies discourage it! Agreed. But again, I know what everyone makes there so there was no expectation that I wouldn't find out. Which is what pissed me off even more. They knew I would see it so to me it was a complete slam to me.
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Jaguar
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Post by Jaguar on Jan 15, 2017 15:17:26 GMT -5
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jan 15, 2017 15:20:23 GMT -5
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Jan 15, 2017 15:32:34 GMT -5
And Miss T's scenario is exactly why companies discourage it! Agreed. But again, I know what everyone makes there so there was no expectation that I wouldn't find out. Which is what pissed me off even more. They knew I would see it so to me it was a complete slam to me. They sound so stupid and incompetent as well as hiring that idiot, that I'm not certain they DID know you'd find out.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jan 15, 2017 15:37:56 GMT -5
Agreed. But again, I know what everyone makes there so there was no expectation that I wouldn't find out. Which is what pissed me off even more. They knew I would see it so to me it was a complete slam to me. They sound so stupid and incompetent as well as hiring that idiot, that I'm not certain they DID know you'd find out. Lol! Actually my boss said "it isn't like I didn't know eyou would see it. I just didn't expect you to think that we wouldn't take care of you." So who knows. And at this point it doesn't matter. My boss knows I'm not meek and mild and that I wouldn't put up with that. If he didn't know it before, he certainly knows it now!lol I got what I wanted so for now I'm satisfied. I will never know if they were trying to screw me and honestly, it just doesn't matter. To be honest, I wasn't unhappy with my salary before. I was already at the higher end of the range for my position according to the analysis we received from our recruiting company. I was content until the other guy got the substantial raise. If I didn't have access to payroll I never would have known and still would have been content with the salary. It was never the salary that had me hating my job
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plugginaway22
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Post by plugginaway22 on Jan 15, 2017 15:47:50 GMT -5
But your new salary will make it easier on those rough days, promise!
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jan 15, 2017 15:53:42 GMT -5
But your new salary will make it easier on those rough days, promise! I have to admit that is totally what I was thinking!lol
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formerroomate99
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Post by formerroomate99 on Jan 15, 2017 21:24:06 GMT -5
The problem is that a lot of people aren't in a financial position where they can just resign if they sense foul play. It's just not that simple. No, you usually have to get a job offer from another company to have any kind of leverage. And once you get another offer, it's often pointless to stay. I once took a counteroffer from my company, and it was a huge mistake. I should have left. I've managed to negotiate up in my salary in the last couple of years. But I've also been treated horribly. At one job, my boss was clearly miffed that I was making as much as I was making and told me so to my face.
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