Deleted
Joined: Oct 7, 2024 21:29:00 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 13, 2017 12:23:03 GMT -5
I hate to ask in this context milee because you once accused me of nefarious feelings, and honestly I'm just curious/thoughtful. But how is your son doing. I admit when pre existing conditions popped up the other day I also thought if him. I'm not sure if I missed it, but did everything work out well with his medical issues? I hope.
|
|
Tennesseer
Member Emeritus
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 21:58:42 GMT -5
Posts: 64,500
|
Post by Tennesseer on Jan 13, 2017 12:30:14 GMT -5
Or not 'feminine' enough... You mean the plunging neckline?
I heard a really funny story recently from DH's former boss with whom we've become friends. He was telling the story about how several of his employees were complaining about a co-worker who was so proud of her boob-job that she felt the need to have them on constant display. FWIW both male and female employees were complaining. We were busting up about how he had to give her a "talk".
These stories make me grateful I wasn't in upper management or HR.
I'm sure Tennesseer has some tales about how unprofessional dress can go the wrong way for BOTH sexes.
I recall doing a facility visit and while there I noticed one of the female employee's company uniform dress. As the majority of employees at this facility wore uniforms, this employee's stuck out. She was wearing a light blue, button down shirt that was so thin from washing, I was able to see every bit of lace on her bra. The uniformed employees were also able to wear dark blue shorts during the warm months. This employee's shorts were about two inches lower than the bottom of her body crotch. Instead of wearing steel-toed shoes like all the other uniformed employees, she was wearing stiletto heels with nylons. I asked one of the female managers at this location why she was allowed to dress in this manner. The reply from the female manager was the male managers and senior manager thought she looked hot. After my visit, the employee was wearing a more appropriate uniform. As for unprofessional dress going wrong for both sexes, I didn't get too involved in that stuff. It was more of a local issue solved at a local facility or district level. I worked out of headquarters. But working out of headquarters, and it was random assignment, for a while I seemed to get a lot of body part and body function cases to investigate and often resulted in termination. Some things I never really needed to ever know.
|
|
milee
Senior Associate
Joined: Jan 17, 2012 13:20:00 GMT -5
Posts: 12,344
|
Post by milee on Jan 13, 2017 12:30:26 GMT -5
I hate to ask in this context milee because you once accused me of nefarious feelings, and honestly I'm just curious/thoughtful. But how is your son doing. I admit when pre existing conditions popped up the other day I also thought if him. I'm not sure if I missed it, but did everything work out well with his medical issues? I hope. Still on hold. His curve is worse, but he hasn't yet agreed to do the surgery. I'm not willing to force that type of surgery on him so we keep going to the appointments and giving him information. He's starting to understand why (even though it doesn't currently hurt him) the surgery is a good idea. I'm hoping my current, grandfathered plan will still be available when he is ready. Think it will be during the summer of '18. I'm very grateful I've been holding on to the pre-ACA plan because the plans available now have such limited doctor and hospital networks that it's likely they'd only cover his surgery with a nonspecialist at a certain local hospital that doesn't do many of these surgeries - scary. So it remains to be seen if repealing the ACA will help or hurt our particular situation. Might help - mean that we can get a new plan that still has a large provider network and other features we'd like or might hurt - could mean this grandfathered plan finally goes away without a good replacement and we're really screwed. Too soon to tell.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: Oct 7, 2024 21:29:00 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 13, 2017 13:52:03 GMT -5
Well I hope it goes well and your plan holds. I understand not pushing him, parenting, sigh.
|
|
formerroomate99
Junior Associate
Joined: Sept 12, 2011 13:33:12 GMT -5
Posts: 7,381
|
Post by formerroomate99 on Jan 13, 2017 14:19:58 GMT -5
Interesting.
Miss T finds out she is paid less than a guy that she has to assist in his job duties.
It's her fault for not negotiating better.
You've got a point. Sounds like her company is run by incompetent jerks. On the other hand, most companies would pay all their employees minimum wage if they could get away with it, and if you're not willing to look out for yourself, nobody else will.
|
|
beergut
Senior Member
Joined: Jan 11, 2011 13:58:39 GMT -5
Posts: 2,184
|
Post by beergut on Jan 13, 2017 21:08:55 GMT -5
Interesting.
Miss T finds out she is paid less than a guy that she has to assist in his job duties.
It's her fault for not negotiating better.
This isn't even close to what I said, go back and read my original reply. They paid her less because they thought they could get away with it.
|
|
Miss Tequila
Distinguished Associate
Joined: Dec 19, 2010 10:13:45 GMT -5
Posts: 20,602
|
Post by Miss Tequila on Jan 13, 2017 22:00:16 GMT -5
I didn't quite pull a Dark as I have to give 6 months notice or I forfeit a pretty generous non-compete.
I have never in my over 20 years professional career felt that I was paid less because I was a woman. But that changed last week. Claims of sexual discrimination in pay always irk me, because they're illogical on the face. You aren't getting paid less because you're a woman, he isn't getting paid more because he's a man. You're getting paid less because they think they can get away with paying you less, nothing more to it than that. They don't pay people more because they have a penis or less because they have a vagina, they pay people as little as they think they can get away with, because that increases their profitability, and businesses exist to make a profit. If women truly were paid less than men for the same work, companies would only hire women. Women are paid less than men for the same positions because they accept lower salaries, not because there is some huge sexual discrimination conspiracy at work. Before getting irked by me, keep reading in the thread because I said that I wasn't sure it was discrimination. And considering I handed in my resignation I think we can all conclude that I will not accept a lower salary
|
|
justme
Senior Associate
Joined: Feb 10, 2012 13:12:47 GMT -5
Posts: 14,618
|
Post by justme on Jan 13, 2017 22:15:58 GMT -5
Except they've done studies with identical resumes but different names and asked if they would interview them and what they would be willing to pay said person - and the resumes with men names got more. Similar to studies whether they had ethnic names vs "normal" (ie more white) names and the white names were worth more.
Is it always sexual discrimination? No. But to say that the pay discrepancy is purely because women accept less or refuse to negotiate is false.
|
|
Miss Tequila
Distinguished Associate
Joined: Dec 19, 2010 10:13:45 GMT -5
Posts: 20,602
|
Post by Miss Tequila on Jan 13, 2017 22:25:55 GMT -5
Thank you all for your kind thoughts (well, most of you!lol).
I had my conversation last week (I think I posted about that) but had to wait until this week to see what was "in the works".
I was given a pretty substantial raise. I turned down their initial offer and got another $5k out of it for a total of $25k. I know I hate my job but I just can't turn that kind of money down for the unknown. As you can tell, it's the money that is keeping me and nothing else. I'm a whore
Now for the downside. I am afraid the "screw up" will wind up reporting to me. Right now he reports directly to my boss but he needs more guidance and training. My boss said that he is looking at the org chart and he will be making some changes. This guy missed today's reporting deadline. He is completely failing at his job but this time I didn't jump in and help him. I want his screw ups known and that isn't going to happen if I keep covering for him. When I rescinded my resignation I told my boss that he needs to take a more active role in training him (and by "more" active role, I mean any role!lol)....but I fear that is going to backfire by just making him my problem.
So I'm staying for now. The extra money will help me build my real estate portfolio even faster. But I'm not naïve. Eventually the money won't mean much to me if I'm still unhappy.
So that's my update. More money but nothing else really changed.t
ETA: I should also note that part of this guys "raise" was a car allowance. My boss claims that HR tossed out the car allowance for him since he travels so much (and to be fair, he does travel a lot since the company he oversees is 7 hours away). That was $10k of his $20k raise. My boss swears he screwed up by giving him his raise before I got mine. Who knows if that is true or not. In the end, I got a substantial raise to stay. And more important, I know that I have the balls to walk if I feel I'm not happy or feel like I'm not being compensated appropriately. I'm not a victim!
|
|
Miss Tequila
Distinguished Associate
Joined: Dec 19, 2010 10:13:45 GMT -5
Posts: 20,602
|
Post by Miss Tequila on Jan 13, 2017 22:27:38 GMT -5
Except they've done studies with identical resumes but different names and asked if they would interview them and what they would be willing to pay said person - and the resumes with men names got more. Similar to studies whether they had ethnic names vs "normal" (ie more white) names and the white names were worth more. Is it always sexual discrimination? No. But to say that the pay discrepancy is purely because women accept less or refuse to negotiate is false. I have to say that based on my experience (yes, I know that is not representative of the entire population) women rarely negotiate while most men do. I do think that hurts us.
|
|
Miss Tequila
Distinguished Associate
Joined: Dec 19, 2010 10:13:45 GMT -5
Posts: 20,602
|
Post by Miss Tequila on Jan 13, 2017 22:30:25 GMT -5
So you've experienced gender bias for the first time? Welcome to the club. Some of us have been fighting for equal pay for many years. Feels different when ir's you, doesn't it? Thank you for your kind words. As noted, I got a $25k raise because I won't stand for being paid less than a less qualified man. Doesn't seem that the fight is all that difficult
|
|
justme
Senior Associate
Joined: Feb 10, 2012 13:12:47 GMT -5
Posts: 14,618
|
Post by justme on Jan 13, 2017 22:38:41 GMT -5
Except they've done studies with identical resumes but different names and asked if they would interview them and what they would be willing to pay said person - and the resumes with men names got more. Similar to studies whether they had ethnic names vs "normal" (ie more white) names and the white names were worth more. Is it always sexual discrimination? No. But to say that the pay discrepancy is purely because women accept less or refuse to negotiate is false. I have to say that based on my experience (yes, I know that is not representative of the entire population) women rarely negotiate while most men do. I do think that hurts us. Yes, that's definitely one aspect. Although, evidenced by a poster up thread, women negotiating can also hurt them (poster had 2 offers rescinded upon a counter offer). It's really too complex of a thing to pin point it on one item. But to completely dismiss sexism as a factor as beergut has done in his post is uniformed, at best.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: Oct 7, 2024 21:29:00 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 13, 2017 22:41:15 GMT -5
Yay to 25K!
|
|
Miss Tequila
Distinguished Associate
Joined: Dec 19, 2010 10:13:45 GMT -5
Posts: 20,602
|
Post by Miss Tequila on Jan 13, 2017 22:42:52 GMT -5
I have to say that based on my experience (yes, I know that is not representative of the entire population) women rarely negotiate while most men do. I do think that hurts us. Yes, that's definitely one aspect. Although, evidenced by a poster up thread, women negotiating can also hurt them (poster had 2 offers rescinded upon a counter offer). It's really too complex of a thing to pin point it on one item. But to completely dismiss sexism as a factor as beergut has done in his post is uniformed, at best. Meh, I don't take anything beergut says seriously!lol
I'm actually disappointed in women when they don't counter me. I rarely go in at the top of my compensation range so I almost always have some wiggle room. I was not as good at that when I was younger but I think that was just lack of confidence in my abilities, But I see it time and time again. I don't know how we teach that to our younger people. Have faith in your skills and abilities!
|
|
Miss Tequila
Distinguished Associate
Joined: Dec 19, 2010 10:13:45 GMT -5
Posts: 20,602
|
Post by Miss Tequila on Jan 13, 2017 22:43:41 GMT -5
Yay to 25K! Thank you. And trust me, I'm VERY happy with the money. I just hope the job itself gets better.
|
|
justme
Senior Associate
Joined: Feb 10, 2012 13:12:47 GMT -5
Posts: 14,618
|
Post by justme on Jan 13, 2017 22:54:43 GMT -5
Yes, that's definitely one aspect. Although, evidenced by a poster up thread, women negotiating can also hurt them (poster had 2 offers rescinded upon a counter offer). It's really too complex of a thing to pin point it on one item. But to completely dismiss sexism as a factor as beergut has done in his post is uniformed, at best. Meh, I don't take anything beergut says seriously!lol
I'm actually disappointed in women when they don't counter me. I rarely go in at the top of my compensation range so I almost always have some wiggle room. I was not as good at that when I was younger but I think that was just lack of confidence in my abilities, But I see it time and time again. I don't know how we teach that to our younger people. Have faith in your skills and abilities!
I'm sorta mad I had a recruiter for my current job. Though, then again, I told her my reach salary that I "would say yes to automatically" and she got that for me. From the vague-ish convos of the guy that got hired almost a year after me and similar but probably a little behind me experience he's not making more than me. He's either the same or just below me. I wish I knew how much my recruiter negotiated for that - but at the same time I also am inferring from my knowledge of the 4 people they've hired after me in this department that it seems they either really wanted me or were desperate so I might have gotten more. (Though another job I was interviewing told me up front the top of their range and with me getting 100% of the bonus I would have been like $500 under the offer I accepted at this place). My plan going forward is to hopefully look for a job while I have one so I have the ability to negotiate hard.
|
|
Miss Tequila
Distinguished Associate
Joined: Dec 19, 2010 10:13:45 GMT -5
Posts: 20,602
|
Post by Miss Tequila on Jan 13, 2017 23:00:49 GMT -5
Meh, I don't take anything beergut says seriously!lol
I'm actually disappointed in women when they don't counter me. I rarely go in at the top of my compensation range so I almost always have some wiggle room. I was not as good at that when I was younger but I think that was just lack of confidence in my abilities, But I see it time and time again. I don't know how we teach that to our younger people. Have faith in your skills and abilities!
I'm sorta mad I had a recruiter for my current job. Though, then again, I told her my reach salary that I "would say yes to automatically" and she got that for me. From the vague-ish convos of the guy that got hired almost a year after me and similar but probably a little behind me experience he's not making more than me. He's either the same or just below me. I wish I knew how much my recruiter negotiated for that - but at the same time I also am inferring from my knowledge of the 4 people they've hired after me in this department that it seems they either really wanted me or were desperate so I might have gotten more. (Though another job I was interviewing told me up front the top of their range and with me getting 100% of the bonus I would have been like $500 under the offer I accepted at this place). My plan going forward is to hopefully look for a job while I have one so I have the ability to negotiate hard. I also think that sometimes there are other factors that are more important than money. I'm not there yet, but my goal is to have enough passive income built up so I can take a less stressful, more flexible job. So if a women took a job with better hours but less pay, I would definitely understand that. Heck, I might consider less money for better hours!
|
|
justme
Senior Associate
Joined: Feb 10, 2012 13:12:47 GMT -5
Posts: 14,618
|
Post by justme on Jan 13, 2017 23:02:47 GMT -5
I'm sorta mad I had a recruiter for my current job. Though, then again, I told her my reach salary that I "would say yes to automatically" and she got that for me. From the vague-ish convos of the guy that got hired almost a year after me and similar but probably a little behind me experience he's not making more than me. He's either the same or just below me. I wish I knew how much my recruiter negotiated for that - but at the same time I also am inferring from my knowledge of the 4 people they've hired after me in this department that it seems they either really wanted me or were desperate so I might have gotten more. (Though another job I was interviewing told me up front the top of their range and with me getting 100% of the bonus I would have been like $500 under the offer I accepted at this place). My plan going forward is to hopefully look for a job while I have one so I have the ability to negotiate hard. I also think that sometimes there are other factors that are more important than money. I'm not there yet, but my goal is to have enough passive income built up so I can take a less stressful, more flexible job. So if a women took a job with better hours but less pay, I would definitely understand that. Heck, I might consider less money for better hours! Oh hell yes. My next job vacation time and flexibility will be heavily negotiated more so then salary. A family vacation spot is in same time zone I live so I hope for my next job (and maybe this one) to allow me to work remote from there even if it's 50% remote and 50% PTO.
|
|
Miss Tequila
Distinguished Associate
Joined: Dec 19, 2010 10:13:45 GMT -5
Posts: 20,602
|
Post by Miss Tequila on Jan 13, 2017 23:06:30 GMT -5
I also think that sometimes there are other factors that are more important than money. I'm not there yet, but my goal is to have enough passive income built up so I can take a less stressful, more flexible job. So if a women took a job with better hours but less pay, I would definitely understand that. Heck, I might consider less money for better hours! Oh hell yes. My next job vacation time and flexibility will be heavily negotiated more so then salary. A family vacation spot is in same time zone I live so I hope for my next job (and maybe this one) to allow me to work remote from there even if it's 50% remote and 50% PTO.
|
|
MJ2.0
Senior Associate
Joined: Jul 24, 2014 10:27:09 GMT -5
Posts: 11,049
|
Post by MJ2.0 on Jan 14, 2017 0:56:15 GMT -5
The problem is that a lot of people aren't in a financial position where they can just resign if they sense foul play. It's just not that simple.
|
|
beergut
Senior Member
Joined: Jan 11, 2011 13:58:39 GMT -5
Posts: 2,184
|
Post by beergut on Jan 14, 2017 6:29:46 GMT -5
Claims of sexual discrimination in pay always irk me, because they're illogical on the face. You aren't getting paid less because you're a woman, he isn't getting paid more because he's a man. You're getting paid less because they think they can get away with paying you less, nothing more to it than that. They don't pay people more because they have a penis or less because they have a vagina, they pay people as little as they think they can get away with, because that increases their profitability, and businesses exist to make a profit. If women truly were paid less than men for the same work, companies would only hire women. Women are paid less than men for the same positions because they accept lower salaries, not because there is some huge sexual discrimination conspiracy at work. Before getting irked by me, keep reading in the thread because I said that I wasn't sure it was discrimination. And considering I handed in my resignation I think we can all conclude that I will not accept a lower salary I read the whole thread to that point before I replied, so I saw where you came around to the idea that it wasn't sexism, but possibly just incompetence on their part. As for your second point, what they thought they could get away with and what you will accept are two different things, which is something your boss and company president just realized.
|
|
beergut
Senior Member
Joined: Jan 11, 2011 13:58:39 GMT -5
Posts: 2,184
|
Post by beergut on Jan 14, 2017 6:35:58 GMT -5
I have to say that based on my experience (yes, I know that is not representative of the entire population) women rarely negotiate while most men do. I do think that hurts us. Yes, that's definitely one aspect. Although, evidenced by a poster up thread, women negotiating can also hurt them (poster had 2 offers rescinded upon a counter offer). It's really too complex of a thing to pin point it on one item. But to completely dismiss sexism as a factor as beergut has done in his post is uniformed, at best. When a woman accepts a salary for a job, who is at fault for her working at that salary, the woman or the employer?
|
|
beergut
Senior Member
Joined: Jan 11, 2011 13:58:39 GMT -5
Posts: 2,184
|
Post by beergut on Jan 14, 2017 6:39:08 GMT -5
Thank you all for your kind thoughts (well, most of you!lol).
I had my conversation last week (I think I posted about that) but had to wait until this week to see what was "in the works".
I was given a pretty substantial raise. I turned down their initial offer and got another $5k out of it for a total of $25k. I know I hate my job but I just can't turn that kind of money down for the unknown. As you can tell, it's the money that is keeping me and nothing else. I'm a whore
Now for the downside. I am afraid the "screw up" will wind up reporting to me. Right now he reports directly to my boss but he needs more guidance and training. My boss said that he is looking at the org chart and he will be making some changes. This guy missed today's reporting deadline. He is completely failing at his job but this time I didn't jump in and help him. I want his screw ups known and that isn't going to happen if I keep covering for him. When I rescinded my resignation I told my boss that he needs to take a more active role in training him (and by "more" active role, I mean any role!lol)....but I fear that is going to backfire by just making him my problem.
So I'm staying for now. The extra money will help me build my real estate portfolio even faster. But I'm not naïve. Eventually the money won't mean much to me if I'm still unhappy.
So that's my update. More money but nothing else really changed.t
ETA: I should also note that part of this guys "raise" was a car allowance. My boss claims that HR tossed out the car allowance for him since he travels so much (and to be fair, he does travel a lot since the company he oversees is 7 hours away). That was $10k of his $20k raise. My boss swears he screwed up by giving him his raise before I got mine. Who knows if that is true or not. In the end, I got a substantial raise to stay. And more important, I know that I have the balls to walk if I feel I'm not happy or feel like I'm not being compensated appropriately. I'm not a victim! Congrats!! Since you said he was making $10k more than you and he is beneath you on the org chart, I figured they would offer something in the range of $15-$20k to keep you, and you should counter with $25k before accepting. I surprised/shocked to see I was so close on the numbers.
|
|
MJ2.0
Senior Associate
Joined: Jul 24, 2014 10:27:09 GMT -5
Posts: 11,049
|
Post by MJ2.0 on Jan 14, 2017 7:32:12 GMT -5
Yes, that's definitely one aspect. Although, evidenced by a poster up thread, women negotiating can also hurt them (poster had 2 offers rescinded upon a counter offer). It's really too complex of a thing to pin point it on one item. But to completely dismiss sexism as a factor as beergut has done in his post is uniformed, at best. When a woman accepts a salary for a job, who is at fault for her working at that salary, the woman or the employer? And what about a PP's experience where she's had offers rescinded after negotiating?
|
|
zibazinski
Community Leader
Joined: Dec 24, 2010 16:12:50 GMT -5
Posts: 47,912
|
Post by zibazinski on Jan 14, 2017 10:16:58 GMT -5
I'd say that's not a company that was going to value her anyway.
|
|
Cookies Galore
Senior Associate
I don't need no instructions to know how to rock
Joined: Dec 19, 2010 18:08:13 GMT -5
Posts: 10,891
|
Post by Cookies Galore on Jan 14, 2017 10:27:17 GMT -5
Yay to 25K! Thank you. And trust me, I'm VERY happy with the money. I just hope the job itself gets better. I hope it does, too, but you know it won't. You're misersble there and hate the job. You've been complaining about it for years! You got the raise because you caught them. I hope you're still going to look for a new job!
|
|
formerroomate99
Junior Associate
Joined: Sept 12, 2011 13:33:12 GMT -5
Posts: 7,381
|
Post by formerroomate99 on Jan 14, 2017 10:53:23 GMT -5
The only way the bias against women negotiating is going to go away is if the majority of women start negotiating. If women just sat on their rears and waited for things to be handed to them, we'd still be wearing corsets and not be able to vote.
At any rate Mrs T, since you're this guy's boss now, you have the option of firing him if he doesn't measure up.
|
|
MJ2.0
Senior Associate
Joined: Jul 24, 2014 10:27:09 GMT -5
Posts: 11,049
|
Post by MJ2.0 on Jan 14, 2017 10:53:36 GMT -5
I'd say that's not a company that was going to value her anyway. Okay, and when companies keep rescinding their offers after negotiations and she has bills to pay, she will then have to eventually take whatever is offered. Most people dont have the luxury of waiting for a great offer unless they are already employed. But yeah, it's her fault for accepting a lower salary.
|
|
zibazinski
Community Leader
Joined: Dec 24, 2010 16:12:50 GMT -5
Posts: 47,912
|
Post by zibazinski on Jan 14, 2017 10:55:15 GMT -5
I know. Double edged sword. You must have an extremely valuable skill. My girlfriend has one as well but the rest of us peons could have never bargained. We were too easily replaceable.
|
|
justme
Senior Associate
Joined: Feb 10, 2012 13:12:47 GMT -5
Posts: 14,618
|
Post by justme on Jan 14, 2017 11:28:06 GMT -5
Yes, that's definitely one aspect. Although, evidenced by a poster up thread, women negotiating can also hurt them (poster had 2 offers rescinded upon a counter offer). It's really too complex of a thing to pin point it on one item. But to completely dismiss sexism as a factor as beergut has done in his post is uniformed, at best. When a woman accepts a salary for a job, who is at fault for her working at that salary, the woman or the employer? You're totally right. All the evidence that women are offered lower salaries than men to begin with is her fault. And it's totally the women's fault that the start of her negotiating is at a lower bar then men because of the lower initial offer. And the evidence that women are not looked on favorably for negotiating is totally her fault. And is totally her fault that even with negotiating the men are still likely to end with higher salaries.
|
|