Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jan 2, 2017 23:50:01 GMT -5
Wait, your last day is right before qtr end?? Niiiice And then you'll be collecting severance while laying on the beach and drinking? Yeah, tough life you are having Good for you for not taking BS from people! lol! If they make me stay for the full 6 months I will get stuck there on closing day...but then I'm free!lol And hopefully get some time off this summer before starting a new job. But I'm a single mom so it isn't like I can actually wait until summer is over to start looking. I'm going to have to start looking soon (maybe 2 months?). It sucks because if a job comes up now I can't take it (I am NOT walking from a year's salary!) so I can't start looking too early.
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tallguy
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Post by tallguy on Jan 2, 2017 23:58:01 GMT -5
"Well, there's two things. First, you probably should have made sure to do mine first, or at least have given me a heads-up. And second, do you think that giving a huge raise to someone who you know can't even do his own job is supposed to give me confidence in the management here?"Forewarned is forearmed so I recommend no further conversation with your boss at this time. Save the above thoughts for your meeting with the president which I would view as a golden opportunity to make sure he is aware of all thatbyounhave been doing and how really f'd up things have been. ETA - your boss has most likely been treating the president like a mushroom (keeping him in the dark and feeding him nothing but bulshit) because the reality will reflect poorly in him. To be fair, the president is fairly new to our company so I am sure he has no idea what is going on. And I can say with certainty that I have never seen this kind of obvious bias happen in this company before. I can't even say it is bias because of sex. I honestly don't know. I do have a very strong personality so I am not the "yes man" that the other guy is (I know you are all shocked about my personality!lol). Boss and I go toe-to-toe on man issues where the other guy just does what he is told (different type of work so it isn't exactly the same). Is that being rewarded? I was honestly dumbfounded when I saw what his salary is now.
And I am being harsh when I am calling him a screw up. He is honestly fantastic at the job he had. He is not qualified for the job he was given nor was he given the proper training. Boss treated him like he would treat me but we are two completely different levels. So I blame the boss not the co-worker. He promoted him beyond his abilities and gave him no guidance (to be fair, my boss doesn't even review any reporting so I don't think he actually could give him any guidance).
I honestly didn't think sexual discrimination when I discovered this. I confronted the boss and was given no valid reason for why he was being paid more than me (there was no "well you are really failing in x,y,x"). It was other people that put that in my head. Long story short, I dont' care if it is sexual discrimination or just an asshole boss, I will not be paid less than someone that is significantly less qualified.
And not knowing any of the backstory, my suggestion to tell your boss first was to give him a chance to fix it on his own, before you meet with the president. To say something like that to the president without going through your boss first would throw him under the bus and definitely burn the bridge behind you on your way out. Better to give him a chance to follow through on the, "something big in store..." for you thing should he be serious about it. Pretty classless to do less, and that's not the image you want to leave with.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jan 3, 2017 0:05:12 GMT -5
To be fair, the president is fairly new to our company so I am sure he has no idea what is going on. And I can say with certainty that I have never seen this kind of obvious bias happen in this company before. I can't even say it is bias because of sex. I honestly don't know. I do have a very strong personality so I am not the "yes man" that the other guy is (I know you are all shocked about my personality!lol). Boss and I go toe-to-toe on man issues where the other guy just does what he is told (different type of work so it isn't exactly the same). Is that being rewarded? I was honestly dumbfounded when I saw what his salary is now.
And I am being harsh when I am calling him a screw up. He is honestly fantastic at the job he had. He is not qualified for the job he was given nor was he given the proper training. Boss treated him like he would treat me but we are two completely different levels. So I blame the boss not the co-worker. He promoted him beyond his abilities and gave him no guidance (to be fair, my boss doesn't even review any reporting so I don't think he actually could give him any guidance).
I honestly didn't think sexual discrimination when I discovered this. I confronted the boss and was given no valid reason for why he was being paid more than me (there was no "well you are really failing in x,y,x"). It was other people that put that in my head. Long story short, I dont' care if it is sexual discrimination or just an asshole boss, I will not be paid less than someone that is significantly less qualified.
And not knowing any of the backstory, my suggestion to tell your boss first was to give him a chance to fix it on his own, before you meet with the president. To say something like that to the president without going through your boss first would throw him under the bus and definitely burn the bridge behind you on your way out. Better to give him a chance to follow through on the, "something big in store..." for you thing should he be serious about it. Pretty classless to do less, and that's not the image you want to leave with. I never said I was going to throw him under the bus. I live in a small area and reputation means everything. It's phrasing it that is the hard part. I didn't go to HR or to the President. I went right to my boss to resign. As far as I was concerned it was over. I will not work for someone that doesn't value me or my contribution. I will admit that right now I'm still pissed off and have the "go fuck yourself" attitude. But I will listen to what they have to say. I'm just not sure what I will say...but I won't sabotage myself.
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tallguy
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Post by tallguy on Jan 3, 2017 0:14:33 GMT -5
And not knowing any of the backstory, my suggestion to tell your boss first was to give him a chance to fix it on his own, before you meet with the president. To say something like that to the president without going through your boss first would throw him under the bus and definitely burn the bridge behind you on your way out. Better to give him a chance to follow through on the, "something big in store..." for you thing should he be serious about it. Pretty classless to do less, and that's not the image you want to leave with. I never said I was going to throw him under the bus. I live in a small area and reputation means everything. It's phrasing it that is the hard part. I didn't go to HR or to the President. I went right to my boss to resign. As far as I was concerned it was over. I will not work for someone that doesn't value me or my contribution. I will admit that right now I'm still pissed off and have the "go fuck yourself" attitude. But I will listen to what they have to say. I'm just not sure what I will say...but I won't sabotage myself. I know. I was responding more to the other post there advising you to not speak to your boss.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jan 3, 2017 0:16:47 GMT -5
I never said I was going to throw him under the bus. I live in a small area and reputation means everything. It's phrasing it that is the hard part. I didn't go to HR or to the President. I went right to my boss to resign. As far as I was concerned it was over. I will not work for someone that doesn't value me or my contribution. I will admit that right now I'm still pissed off and have the "go fuck yourself" attitude. But I will listen to what they have to say. I'm just not sure what I will say...but I won't sabotage myself. I know. I was responding more to the other post there advising you to not speak to your boss. Gotcha.
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Works4me
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Post by Works4me on Jan 3, 2017 2:42:15 GMT -5
I wasn't saying not to speak to the boss. I was saying don't give him an easy out. IMHO, the problem is the boss looks very bad because the guy he promoted cannot handle his new job AND was given a raise as well - the boss is going to be in serious CYA mode and that is dangerous.
As far as pay goes, it sounds like typical corporate stupidity combined with a failure to really think things through. My best guess is they pay you less because they thought you would never know meaning they could get away with it. The proof in how much they value you will be in what they do next.
Good luck!
ETA - when you start looking, remember that it could be worth it to a new employer to pay you that year of salary in order to hire you. Your services are definitely worth that and more.
One of my corporate jobs involved putting together hiring packages for executives. You'd be amazed what Can be negotiated to insure certain hires and it's all negotiable.
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Shooby
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Post by Shooby on Jan 3, 2017 5:19:41 GMT -5
How did u find out what his salary is?
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jan 3, 2017 6:19:57 GMT -5
How did u find out what his salary is? I run the finance department so payroll reports to me. I don't review payroll every month but did stumble across his raise. So there was no expectation that I wouldn't find out since I have access to everything.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jan 3, 2017 6:21:44 GMT -5
I wasn't saying not to speak to the boss. I was saying don't give him an easy out. IMHO, the problem is the boss looks very bad because the guy he promoted cannot handle his new job AND was given a raise as well - the boss is going to be in serious CYA mode and that is dangerous. As far as pay goes, it sounds like typical corporate stupidity combined with a failure to really think things through. My best guess is they pay you less because they thought you would never know meaning they could get away with it. The proof in how much they value you will be in what they do next. Good luck! ETA - when you start looking, remember that it could be worth it to a new employer to pay you that year of salary in order to hire you. Your services are definitely worth that and more. One of my corporate jobs involved putting together hiring packages for executives. You'd be amazed what Can be negotiated to insure certain hires and it's all negotiable. Thank you. I head back to work today. I can't wait....lol
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geenamercile
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Post by geenamercile on Jan 3, 2017 6:22:25 GMT -5
Tina this sucks for you and I am sorry. Since 6 months seems like a number your company loves, I am wondering if when he was promoted 6 months ago if some deal was made that after being in the new position for 6 months he would get the raise. Since they are not moving him from the position he got the raise. Just an idea besides the sexism one. Another thought is that he was unhappy in the position, knew he wasn't doing it well and not getting the support he needed and had put in his noticed, but then accepted a raise to stay.
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Shooby
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Post by Shooby on Jan 3, 2017 6:22:45 GMT -5
You're a smart cookie. You will figure this out and come out stronger one way or the other.
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plugginaway22
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Post by plugginaway22 on Jan 3, 2017 6:58:54 GMT -5
You are in a perfect position to negotiate whatever you want. Consider staying and demanding exactly what you want. I did that about 5 years ago and have never been happier with a job.
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wvugurl26
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Post by wvugurl26 on Jan 3, 2017 7:10:22 GMT -5
Good luck today. And on figuring out your next step.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jan 3, 2017 7:35:43 GMT -5
Tina this sucks for you and I am sorry. Since 6 months seems like a number your company loves, I am wondering if when he was promoted 6 months ago if some deal was made that after being in the new position for 6 months he would get the raise. Since they are not moving him from the position he got the raise. Just an idea besides the sexism one. Another thought is that he was unhappy in the position, knew he wasn't doing it well and not getting the support he needed and had put in his noticed, but then accepted a raise to stay. That could very well be true. and it's why I don't like to automatically jump to sexism because there could be dozens of reasons why he got the raise.
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Shooby
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Post by Shooby on Jan 3, 2017 7:36:19 GMT -5
A few years back, i had things go sour at my job. My partners retired and I didn't see eye to eye with Admin. So, we mutually decided to not renew my contract. I walked away and they didn't sign me back on because they were pissy, lol. Anyway, I thought that was that. A year later, i got a phone call. Would you consider coming back? So, they took me out to lunch and the head honchos APOLOGIZED to me. I was absolutely stunned because i never thought that would happen in a million years! Anyway, i found a new young partner and i went back and things are going great.
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muttleynfelix
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Post by muttleynfelix on Jan 3, 2017 7:43:03 GMT -5
Best of luck Miss T.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 3, 2017 7:52:13 GMT -5
I'd hire a lawyer. Not because I am going to sue, but to protect my interests. Right now they are playing nice because they want to persuade you to stay. If you don't say yes, things are going to get a little awkward. Six months is a long time, and I don't imagine they have to pay out the non-compete $$$ if they manage to trump up a reason to fire you for cause. And there is always a reason that can be trumped up. Good luck, Miss Tequila
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emma1420
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Post by emma1420 on Jan 3, 2017 8:15:13 GMT -5
I'm sorry you are in this situation. However, I know you will land on your feet with something even better.
However, I would highly encourage you to have an honest discussion with the President, especially because he's newer. He may not know exactly what is going on. And the real issue here is your boss. Losing valuable employees because you rely on them and don't reward them, while that same person rewards others who aren't capable of the positions that they hold. I suspect that the President of the company may not truly be aware of that, and he deserves the opportunity to correct that. Even if you don't benefit from that correction (although I hope you do).
I am sorry though. It sucks.
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Jan 3, 2017 8:43:24 GMT -5
Maybe this is the universe's way of saying it's time to aggressively grow your RE business and live your life! If you get a new job, let it be something low stress or that you enjoy. You have enough money.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jan 3, 2017 8:48:52 GMT -5
Maybe this is the universe's way of saying it's time to aggressively grow your RE business and live your life! If you get a new job, let it be something low stress or that you enjoy. You have enough money. ha! I wish I had enough money. I'm not there, yet. I am lucky enough that I can weather unemployment for awhile but nowhere near having my rentals fund my life...and I'm not a spender!
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Green Eyed Lady
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Post by Green Eyed Lady on Jan 3, 2017 9:09:10 GMT -5
Oh dear. What a development. I'm so glad you have been smart with everything and have a cushion. No way you don't land on your feet. I understand what you are saying, tho, about your rep meaning a lot. Nobody wants to hire anybody who trashes their last employer. It's very good you are handling it this way and maybe he'll learn a lesson by losing a person who is valuable to him.
You are right. There could be many reasons he was given a raise and none of them could have anything to do with gender. At least where I work, people are either given a raise or fired. There is no in-between. And maybe it's true that they have something even bigger and better planned for you, but I agree that should have come through first before the guy who's mess you are constantly cleaning up.
I have no idea about the "why", but I know I'd ask. Give me specifics - maybe there's something in there I can live with. Especially when I'm not getting any feedback regarding anything I've done wrong. You are awesome. They will be sorry.
Ignore the "gotcha" nasties. My guess is they've never been discriminated before because of gender either. If they haven't gotten ahead, it's because they are miserable human beings and nobody wants anything to do with them.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jan 3, 2017 9:28:36 GMT -5
Oh dear. What a development. I'm so glad you have been smart with everything and have a cushion. No way you don't land on your feet. I understand what you are saying, tho, about your rep meaning a lot. Nobody wants to hire anybody who trashes their last employer. It's very good you are handling it this way and maybe he'll learn a lesson by losing a person who is valuable to him.
You are right. There could be many reasons he was given a raise and none of them could have anything to do with gender. At least where I work, people are either given a raise or fired. There is no in-between. And maybe it's true that they have something even bigger and better planned for you, but I agree that should have come through first before the guy who's mess you are constantly cleaning up.
I have no idea about the "why", but I know I'd ask. Give me specifics - maybe there's something in there I can live with. Especially when I'm not getting any feedback regarding anything I've done wrong. You are awesome. They will be sorry.
Ignore the "gotcha" nasties. My guess is they've never been discriminated before because of gender either. If they haven't gotten ahead, it's because they are miserable human beings and nobody wants anything to do with them. Thank you very much. And yes, I am not one that automatically assumes gender bias. and lol on the "gotcha" nasties. They do crack me up
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rob base
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Post by rob base on Jan 3, 2017 9:30:41 GMT -5
So you've experienced gender bias for the first time? Welcome to the club. Some of us have been fighting for equal pay for many years. Feels different when ir's you, doesn't it? Aww, as usual a very inspiring post from you.
Difference is that I don't sit around and whine and complain. I resigned. See how that works? But thanks for trying to get a dig in on my thread...I would have expected nothing else from you
It's too bad there is not a "love" button like there is on FB. Because I LOVE your comment here MT :-) And by the way I have a job available if u r interested. I need a personal assistant :-) Best of luck and sorry for ur sitch. Also I 2nd the idea to see a lawyer. Not to sue them but to protect yourself on the way out the door. It's something I wish I did sooner when I was in the military. Once I got one he helped me tremendously
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ken a.k.a OMK
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Post by ken a.k.a OMK on Jan 3, 2017 10:04:24 GMT -5
Miss Tequila you got this. Best of luck (success) with the outcome.
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Jan 3, 2017 10:39:08 GMT -5
Maybe this is the universe's way of saying it's time to aggressively grow your RE business and live your life! If you get a new job, let it be something low stress or that you enjoy. You have enough money. ha! I wish I had enough money. I'm not there, yet. I am lucky enough that I can weather unemployment for awhile but nowhere near having my rentals fund my life...and I'm not a spender! can you get a lower-paying, less stressful accounting job? Would that plus your rental income be enough to live off of?
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Rukh O'Rorke
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Post by Rukh O'Rorke on Jan 3, 2017 11:08:23 GMT -5
"Well, there's two things. First, you probably should have made sure to do mine first, or at least have given me a heads-up. And second, do you think that giving a huge raise to someone who you know can't even do his own job is supposed to give me confidence in the management here?"Forewarned is forearmed so I recommend no further conversation with your boss at this time. Save the above thoughts for your meeting with the president which I would view as a golden opportunity to make sure he is aware of all thatbyounhave been doing and how really f'd up things have been. ETA - your boss has most likely been treating the president like a mushroom (keeping him in the dark and feeding him nothing but bulshit) because the reality will reflect poorly in him. To be fair, the president is fairly new to our company so I am sure he has no idea what is going on. And I can say with certainty that I have never seen this kind of obvious bias happen in this company before. I can't even say it is bias because of sex. I honestly don't know. I do have a very strong personality so I am not the "yes man" that the other guy is (I know you are all shocked about my personality!lol). Boss and I go toe-to-toe on man issues where the other guy just does what he is told (different type of work so it isn't exactly the same). Is that being rewarded? I was honestly dumbfounded when I saw what his salary is now.
And I am being harsh when I am calling him a screw up. He is honestly fantastic at the job he had. He is not qualified for the job he was given nor was he given the proper training. Boss treated him like he would treat me but we are two completely different levels. So I blame the boss not the co-worker. He promoted him beyond his abilities and gave him no guidance (to be fair, my boss doesn't even review any reporting so I don't think he actually could give him any guidance).
I honestly didn't think sexual discrimination when I discovered this. I confronted the boss and was given no valid reason for why he was being paid more than me (there was no "well you are really failing in x,y,x"). It was other people that put that in my head. Long story short, I dont' care if it is sexual discrimination or just an asshole boss, I will not be paid less than someone that is significantly less qualified.
I'm not sure you understand what the main issues with sex discrimination is. You are thinking it is covert and deliberate - where the boss is saying - hey - I'm going to pay this guy more because he's a guy, and this gal less because she is a gal. While that may happen, it is more the case where a guy is given credit for more than is there. In this case, it would seem that unless your boss was deliberately doing it, while not knowing why - he somehow saw more ability and potential in some guy whose work you need to correct on occasion than he saw in you, who not only did the correcting but was at a higher level in the company and have worked there 20 years. It is an unconscious bias at work in most cases. And if you routinely see all this paperwork - he didn't even think it was going to be an issue? Or may he have wanted to knock you down a bit with this info?
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milee
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Post by milee on Jan 3, 2017 11:32:38 GMT -5
Totally this. Plus, your own description of your personality vs the guy's personality as an explanation for why it might be reasonable to pay him more is part of the unconscious gender bias as well. So what if you're not a "yes" person and he "gets along" with everybody? You are both in technical positions and unless you're such an incredible jerk that nobody can work with you (which I doubt), then the fact that he's the kind of person the guys feel comfy with should not be worth $10k more given that you have to correct his work - meaning you have greater technical skill. and are the one that's producing the actual product for the company That's a huge factor in unconscious gender bias - people have an idea of what a boss looks and acts like and guess what - that's usually a guy and it's usually a guy they can picture having a beer with; obviously there is no way for women to quite fit into that unconscious picture. Bottom line... unless your boss has indicated that your behaviour is an issue and it's part of something you're working on, it shouldn't be relevant if you have a different style in a technical position like that. If one of you gets to CFO level and are interfacing with investors and doing PR, then obviously "salesmanship" is part of that job and will go into your value/compensation, but not with your current positions. Pay shouldn't be about who looks the part, or is one of the guys, or is the nicest person there or even about who is the most qualified. Pay should be about who's getting the work done. And that's you. You're doing your work plus the important, difficult, visible parts of his job. IOW, you should be the one making $10k more than he does.
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sesfw
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Post by sesfw on Jan 3, 2017 11:32:52 GMT -5
Good luck Miss T ........ these things can be awkward at best for the next 6 months.
Have you thought of a 3rd person sitting in when you talk to Pres? Maybe HR? If your boss is there, make it a foursome
This whole situation would make me beyond angry. Hopefully between now and seeing Pres you can become more coherent with your thought.
I know you can keep any conversation between you and boss courteous and professional. Personal ethics and work reputations are valuable.
Dang ........... sorry you are dealing with this
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Bonny
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Post by Bonny on Jan 3, 2017 12:13:56 GMT -5
While I'm sorry this happened I'm glad you're being pro-active.
I had a similar thing happen to me 13 years and it wasn't direct gender discrimination; it was a reflection of the difference in job market when I was hired (1995 recession) and when my colleague was hired (1999). First strike was hiring someone over me who had no experience in the field. My boss' boss did a dirty trick when my direct boss retired. Boss' boss did a lateral move for an existing manager whose project ended. This way he didn't have to go through the government hiring process and hire someone actually qualified for the job. Because the new boss was female there's no way I could have claimed gender bias.
Then the new boss hired a new hire from her old agency with a salary more than I was making. I was doing the job of 3.5 people at the time and was only getting step raises. I found out when she had me prepare the department budget. I brought it to her attention and she did nothing. I brought it to her boss' attention when she left and he did nothing. Then he hired another person over me this time going through the full agency process. Of course the new hire was a guy and was buddies with the higher paid colleague.
In hindsight I probably didn't interview as well as the new guy because I was so angry. The higher paid colleague was being insubordinate during my temporary management period and refused to work on smaller transactions. Again in hindsight instead of seeking HR counsel (I had never been a department manager before) I should have started with warnings. Not sure that would have looked too good either.
Interestingly I was offered a job with an outside agency whose manager had sat on the interview panel. He knew of my work and liked me. Unfortunately that agency paid less then ours so my salary was going to be topped out. More importantly I was working on a cutting edge program for my agency and I really didn't want to quit that. I spoke to the Department Head over HR and he told our agency GM what was going on. The GM really wanted the program to move forward and didn't want me to quit. I got offered salary parity, took it and finished up the program.
But it was a Pyrrhic victory. My colleague refused to speak to me and of course, his buddy the new boss, wouldn't deal with his buddy's bad behavior. And why not, the buddy helped get him the job. It was so toxic that when DH got the opportunity to relocate out of the area I was all for it.
That's a long way of saying Miss T "Go for it." The bell's been rung and it's time for you to move on. You already know that you shouldn't burn bridges on the way out because your reputation is everything. Good luck and I know you'll find something better.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jan 3, 2017 12:37:05 GMT -5
Totally this. Plus, your own description of your personality vs the guy's personality as an explanation for why it might be reasonable to pay him more is part of the unconscious gender bias as well. So what if you're not a "yes" person and he "gets along" with everybody? You are both in technical positions and unless you're such an incredible jerk that nobody can work with you (which I doubt), then the fact that he's the kind of person the guys feel comfy with should not be worth $10k more given that you have to correct his work - meaning you have greater technical skill. and are the one that's producing the actual product for the company That's a huge factor in unconscious gender bias - people have an idea of what a boss looks and acts like and guess what - that's usually a guy and it's usually a guy they can picture having a beer with; obviously there is no way for women to quite fit into that unconscious picture. Bottom line... unless your boss has indicated that your behaviour is an issue and it's part of something you're working on, it shouldn't be relevant if you have a different style in a technical position like that. If one of you gets to CFO level and are interfacing with investors and doing PR, then obviously "salesmanship" is part of that job and will go into your value/compensation, but not with your current positions. Pay shouldn't be about who looks the part, or is one of the guys, or is the nicest person there or even about who is the most qualified. Pay should be about who's getting the work done. And that's you. You're doing your work plus the important, difficult, visible parts of his job. IOW, you should be the one making $10k more than he does. Ironically, my boss has made statements that this guy is not a good manager because he doesn't have my personality. He really is just a very nice guy. But so nice that he is having problems with the staff in his department actually respecting him. And I'm nice, too. But I know what needs to be done and while no one likes to fire people or put them on improvement plans, it goes along with the job.
this honestly could be a situation where I do not want to think Ive been discriminated against. But if I am, then I leave. There is no whining or bitching or "woe is me". I know I'm marketable and I have a lot to offer another company (that isn't arrogance, I've been doing this a long time and I know I'm good at what I do). On the other hand, I want to wait and see what is discussed with me later today before totally jumping to conclusions (admittedly, I have been all over the place since discovering this!).
I'm not sure what time my meeting is. Sometime this afternoon is all I know.
And so you all don't think I've gone soft, it will cost them a pretty penny if I do wind up leaving. 12 months salary and health insurance plus 25% of my first year salary to our recruiter...and since I gave my notice in 2016 it will need to be accrued in the year-end numbers which will fuck up everyone's bonus...but nope, I'm not bitter
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