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Post by Deleted on May 12, 2015 9:32:04 GMT -5
I think I have trouble brewing with my almost 5 year old. He's received 3 office referrals in the past couple weeks and the teachers don't know what to do with him. He basically just gets to where he just refuses to do what is asked of him and is disrespectful of the teachers and the materials (throwing things, talking snotty). I have to leave work early tomorrow to go in and talk to his teacher, but I don't know what to tell her. I have the same issue at home and I'm pretty sure the way I deal with it is not helpful. Lots of big power struggles and me just sending him to bed...which btw, he can sleep like nothing else. Last night I put him to bed at 6:30 and I still could hardly get him out of bed at 6am. I'm really, really hoping he's just going through a major growth spurt or something, but my gut says this is headed for worse things if we can't figure it out.
He was fine the first half of the year and all last year (although that was just 2 days a week). Things with his Dad have been pretty benign and visits have been regular and uneventful, so I don't think that is contributing. His behavior doesn't seem to correlate with the visits at all. It's more that he just gets in these stubborn moods where come hell or high water he will not do what you ask or if he does, it's with a lot of anger and acting all sassy.
This morning he didn't want to put his shoes on. He just sat there and refused, saying he didn't know how to tie his shoes. I told him he didn't have to tie them that I would, but just put them on. After several minutes of arguing with him he just threw them down the basement steps. I told him if he didn't go get his shoes he couldn't play with his Legos when he got home. His solution to that, got up and got his Legos and threatened to throw them in the garbage. I told him if he wanted to throw them away, then fine, he wouldn't have any. Then he starts crying that I want him to throw his Legos away. At this point I wanted to kill him so I said he needed to go get his shoes on because I was leaving. And I did. I went into the garage, got in the van and pulled out into the driveway. Within 30 seconds he was out there with shoes on screaming and crying. About 5 or 10 minutes into the drive he snapped out of his funk and was fine.
It's very frustrating. I never had to deal with defiance with his brother, so no clue what to do.
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ArchietheDragon
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Post by ArchietheDragon on May 12, 2015 9:47:38 GMT -5
You help me with my first grader and I'll help you with your preschooler.
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Post by Deleted on May 12, 2015 9:48:26 GMT -5
That sounds pretty normal to me Really? I mean, that's great if it is, but why am I getting called into the school? I HATE that. They have 100 pre-K and Kindy kids, but I'm supposed to tell them how to deal with it?
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HoneyBBQ
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Post by HoneyBBQ on May 12, 2015 9:53:32 GMT -5
Here's something I try to do and sometimes it's really hard...
You were having a power struggle with the shoes. Then you introduced a punishment that had nothing (really) to do with the shoes: legos. I understand he values the legos but I think at least with my DD's age (3.5) it is hard for her to correlate one act (defying putting on shoes) with another consequence later (no legos) that is seemingly unrelated. I try to keep the punishment correlated with the crime: You don't want to put on your shoes? Ok, we'll go to school barefoot and your feet will be cold. Or, you threw your shoes down the stairs? Fine, now you're wearing the pair I pick out and I will put them on you.
It does sound mostly normal to me, too. I'm sorry you are going through this. It's tough. Preschoolers are little monsters!
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Post by Deleted on May 12, 2015 9:53:58 GMT -5
You help me with my first grader and I'll help you with your preschooler. Do you want to trade for a while? They'll probably both behave for awhile in a strange house.
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yogiii
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Post by yogiii on May 12, 2015 9:54:05 GMT -5
We have power struggles like that at home too sometimes. I find they go in spurts, like he's extra emotional for a couple weeks, then more compliant for a couple. Luckily mine is a people pleaser so he behaves well at school. It does sound like part of his problem is being over-tired. Could an earlier bed time (6:30-7) start to become part of the normal routine or do the activities for the older one prevent that?
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Post by Deleted on May 12, 2015 10:00:53 GMT -5
I'm going to give my 12 year old the biggest hug when I get home. He's lazy, can't do somersaults and doesn't turn in his homework, but he never fought me like this...probably because of the lazy part. I did talk to younger son on the drive and ask if he'd like to start taking naps again at school and he said yes because he's tired. I might bring that up with his teacher. He doesn't nap at home though and hasn't for quite a while. I do get him to bed by 8 every night. Lately it's been closer to 7:30. The only activity older son is in is Scouts and his Dad takes him so it's only the rare night that he's up late for a concert or award ceremony.
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Post by Deleted on May 12, 2015 10:03:12 GMT -5
He's testing limits (normal) but it sounds like the teacher is losing or is attempting to 'win' against the 5 year old stubbornness. Does the teacher routinely give him positive feedback? If the only attention he gets from teacher is negative, then negative is what he will go for.
Is the teacher experienced or new? Does she have a helper or is it just her with 20+ kids? When you meet with the teacher, ask them what techniques they recommend to deal with defiant behavior. If she has no answers, then the problem may be the relationship with the teacher.
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yogiii
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Post by yogiii on May 12, 2015 10:05:43 GMT -5
I hope the earlier bedtime helps. My DS just turned 5 and he has maybe twice in his life slept past 6am (this is true for my 2 y/o also). We tell him he can't come out of his room until 6 but I think he wakes up about 5:30. We try to have the kids in bed by 7 at the latest. Sometimes on the weekends closer to 630. DS stopped taking naps about a month after he turned 3 but on weekends by 4-5pm he's dragging.
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Post by Deleted on May 12, 2015 10:05:49 GMT -5
Here's something I try to do and sometimes it's really hard... You were having a power struggle with the shoes. Then you introduced a punishment that had nothing (really) to do with the shoes: legos. I understand he values the legos but I think at least with my DD's age (3.5) it is hard for her to correlate one act (defying putting on shoes) with another consequence later (no legos) that is seemingly unrelated. I try to keep the punishment correlated with the crime: You don't want to put on your shoes? Ok, we'll go to school barefoot and your feet will be cold. Or, you threw your shoes down the stairs? Fine, now you're wearing the pair I pick out and I will put them on you. It does sound mostly normal to me, too. I'm sorry you are going through this. It's tough. Preschoolers are little monsters! The Legos thing came up because he was whining that he didn't want to go to school, he wanted to stay home and play with Legos, so it kind of evolved into if he didn't hurry up he wasn't going to get to play with them AT ALL, but yeah, barefoot would have been better, but I still would have ended up dragging him out the door. I hate forcing him to do things because eventually he's going to get to big for me to do that. Still, I end up forcing a lot.
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on May 12, 2015 10:06:00 GMT -5
I have those moments too. I think part of it may be fatigue as well, but when I have DS we don't get home til around 6. It's hard enough feeding us, cleaning up, putting on our PJs, and letting him/us unwind and relax by 8:30 (when I typically start brushing teeth/last potty/stories) - I don't see how I can get him to bed any earlier than 8. And I have to get him up by 6:20-6:30 to get us out of the house even remotely close to on time.
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Post by Deleted on May 12, 2015 10:09:39 GMT -5
I'm going to give my 12 year old the biggest hug when I get home. He's lazy, can't do somersaults and doesn't turn in his homework, but he never fought me like this...probably because of the lazy part. I did talk to younger son on the drive and ask if he'd like to start taking naps again at school and he said yes because he's tired. I might bring that up with his teacher. He doesn't nap at home though and hasn't for quite a while. I do get him to bed by 8 every night. Lately it's been closer to 7:30. The only activity older son is in is Scouts and his Dad takes him so it's only the rare night that he's up late for a concert or award ceremony. If he's telling you he's tired, I think that is probably most of the problem. Earlier bed times (6:30). Goodness I don't think I knew that there was 8 PM until I was at least 7... My mom believed in early bedtimes It's soooo hard because we don't get home until 5PM. By the time I do chores, make dinner, maybe toss a bath in there, it's already past 7. Then we never get to do anything fun.
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Lizard Queen
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Post by Lizard Queen on May 12, 2015 10:10:43 GMT -5
I have power struggles with that with both boys regularly. In fact, I was a little shocked this morning because both boys were being unusually cooperative. (It's usually one, the other, or neither.)
The 5 yo does seem to get better as he gets older, and hasn't been a problem at school. It does coincide often with being uncomfortable in some way--tired, hungry, hot. The 2 yo, we have to fight to put food in his mouth sometimes. He doesn't realize that he's really hungry until he's actually eating. Other times, it's just straight up attention-seeking/power struggle.
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yogiii
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Post by yogiii on May 12, 2015 10:11:30 GMT -5
No fun time during the week other than bed time stories for us. Don't worry, you probably take it harder than he does.
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on May 12, 2015 10:13:33 GMT -5
well on the weekend I only get DS until 3pm Saturday, so I have to fit some fun in during the week.
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giramomma
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Post by giramomma on May 12, 2015 10:13:49 GMT -5
Have you asked your son why he won't comply either at home or at school?
I might try to talk about what's happening...why the mornings aren't going well...how could we problem solve this?
Another thing I do when I know the kids and I are in a downward spiral is to look for things they are doing well and saying something.
How smooth are your morning routines? Any tweaking that needs to be done there? The kids know when I need them to really cooperate they get some home-baked bread/muffins with chocolate chips. They get excited they get a treat, it's quick, they feel loved, and are more willing to comply.
Otherwise, everyone has touched on everything else: natural consequences, more sleep..
When my kids tried testing me, it was short lived...generally 2-3 weeks max.
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Lizard Queen
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Post by Lizard Queen on May 12, 2015 10:14:48 GMT -5
Here's something I try to do and sometimes it's really hard... You were having a power struggle with the shoes. Then you introduced a punishment that had nothing (really) to do with the shoes: legos. I understand he values the legos but I think at least with my DD's age (3.5) it is hard for her to correlate one act (defying putting on shoes) with another consequence later (no legos) that is seemingly unrelated. I try to keep the punishment correlated with the crime: You don't want to put on your shoes? Ok, we'll go to school barefoot and your feet will be cold. Or, you threw your shoes down the stairs? Fine, now you're wearing the pair I pick out and I will put them on you. It does sound mostly normal to me, too. I'm sorry you are going through this. It's tough. Preschoolers are little monsters! The Legos thing came up because he was whining that he didn't want to go to school, he wanted to stay home and play with Legos, so it kind of evolved into if he didn't hurry up he wasn't going to get to play with them AT ALL, but yeah, barefoot would have been better, but I still would have ended up dragging him out the door. I hate forcing him to do things because eventually he's going to get to big for me to do that. Still, I end up forcing a lot. If Lego's are his currency, then you use Lego's. We bought DS1 a tablet for his 5th birthday. It's been great currency for getting cooperation. We tell him it's a big boy toy, and he has to act like a big boy to be able to play with it.
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Post by Deleted on May 12, 2015 10:15:48 GMT -5
He's testing limits (normal) but it sounds like the teacher is losing or is attempting to 'win' against the 5 year old stubbornness. Does the teacher routinely give him positive feedback? If the only attention he gets from teacher is negative, then negative is what he will go for. Is the teacher experienced or new? Does she have a helper or is it just her with 20+ kids? When you meet with the teacher, ask them what techniques they recommend to deal with defiant behavior. If she has no answers, then the problem may be the relationship with the teacher. I think she's been there several years. She was his teacher most of last year (went on maternity leave last few months of the year) and will be his Kindy teacher next year as well. There is one helper there all the time and maybe one or two more part-timers. It's a Montessori school so they're all about redirecting and positive reinforcement. She said he doesn't bother the other kids or cause a disruption, but he will just sit there and refuse to do things. He tells me he doesn't like working on the things he's given, and wants presentations on other things, but has to follow the work plan, but I think he's exaggerating that part.
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yogiii
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Post by yogiii on May 12, 2015 10:17:18 GMT -5
Maybe have an earlier bedtime during the week and later on the weekend? Or have nights where it's an earlier bedtime? Or have reading nights where your fun is reading together (while he's in bed). I think I grew up in a different time. I don't remember fun being part of the equation. I'm not criticizing in any way. And its not that I had a rough or bad childhood. I just remember that there was dinner, then getting ready for bed, then reading. Fun came on the weekends Yes, I have that feeling too. As an older kid, I always felt like school was my job in the same way that my parents went to work. So everyone in the house was always "working" towards the weekend.
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giramomma
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Post by giramomma on May 12, 2015 10:18:36 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on May 12, 2015 10:22:08 GMT -5
Have you asked your son why he won't comply either at home or at school? I've asked about school. He wants more presentations (they have to get a presentation before they can start a new work), wants to play with his friend instead, doesn't like the work he's being asked to do... Each child gets one to two presentations a week. That's all there is time for because there are 20 kids in the class. They are also free to work on a variety of materials, but there are some things in their work plan that they are directed towards so they're not spending all their time doing one type of subject matter. I'll get more insight into how much he is "forced" into a particular task, but from the phone call it sounds like several options are given.
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milee
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Post by milee on May 12, 2015 10:25:55 GMT -5
Not sure I understand enough of the facts to offer any advice, so just offering some empathy and awful/funny stories about boys to make you feel better.
Mother's Day was pretty awesome. Started out with breakfast - boys served peanut M&M's - before we hung out in PJs all morning. Went to brunch, which was going well until conversation turned into a discussion about centrifugal force. One boy explained some of the physics to the other and the other replied, "Oh! You mean like when I take mom's purse and swing it really fast around my head?" And proceeds to demonstrate. Hope DH tipped well because we're probably not going to be able to go back to that restaurant. But it's better than the Father's Day a few years ago when one fell off his chair and dragged the tablecloth and all the food down on top of him as he fell...
My sister also had a great Mother's Day. She wanted to go kayaking so they rented kayaks. Her DH finds it stressful to kayak with the boys, so rented himself a single kayak and her a double so she could take the boys. Anyway, she's paddling away when there's a slight scuffle followed by a screech... the older boy was teasing the younger boy, so the younger boy bit the older boy. Younger boy's front teeth were a little loose - he's 5 - and fell out when he bit the older boy. So she's got two crying boys, two bleeding boys and teeth floating in her kayak while her husband blissfully paddles down the river.
BTW, all the boys described in these stories are pretty good boys overall. Do well in school, generally well behaved and probably going to be productive members of society some day. But they're boys. And having boys in the house is a lot like owning a small dog or a monkey.
So good luck.
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Post by Deleted on May 12, 2015 10:26:36 GMT -5
Maybe have an earlier bedtime during the week and later on the weekend? Or have nights where it's an earlier bedtime? Or have reading nights where your fun is reading together (while he's in bed). I think I grew up in a different time. I don't remember fun being part of the equation. I'm not criticizing in any way. And its not that I had a rough or bad childhood. I just remember that there was dinner, then getting ready for bed, then reading. Fun came on the weekends Just stuff like go for a walk to the neighbors to see their new kittens or play a board game.
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ArchietheDragon
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Post by ArchietheDragon on May 12, 2015 10:28:05 GMT -5
We have started using checklists for our 6 year olds. She gets checks for doing things and for a good attitude or whatnot. If she doesn't get enough check she loses some privelages. It is working with mixed results so far
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on May 12, 2015 10:28:58 GMT -5
Wait, are you saying that 5 yr olds are not suppose to behave that way
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Post by Deleted on May 12, 2015 10:30:59 GMT -5
What is your older son doing to help you? Evenings is when I'm also hounding older son about his homework. Going through trying to verify what he needs to do and seeing if any of it is done. In the morning he will make sure younger son has breakfast while I go out and do barn chores.
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milee
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Post by milee on May 12, 2015 10:33:22 GMT -5
Have you asked your son why he won't comply either at home or at school? I've asked about school. He wants more presentations (they have to get a presentation before they can start a new work), wants to play with his friend instead, doesn't like the work he's being asked to do... Each child gets one to two presentations a week. That's all there is time for because there are 20 kids in the class. They are also free to work on a variety of materials, but there are some things in their work plan that they are directed towards so they're not spending all their time doing one type of subject matter. I'll get more insight into how much he is "forced" into a particular task, but from the phone call it sounds like several options are given. From my understanding of Montessori - both my kids went to Montessori schools for a few years - this doesn't sound like the Montessori approach is really being followed. Sounds like a hybrid and part of the problem. (Not that I think Montessori is the be all, end all.)
Your son is saying he's bored. He wants to move on explore other, new things but he can't because he has to wait until the teacher has time to "present" the new lesson or activity. IMHO, that could become a very big problem. Especially for an intelligent, active boy. Bored boys get into trouble. And who can blame them? They have huge stores of pent up energy and intellectual curiosity but are forced to sit and do something that's repetitive and boring when they can see the next new, interesting thing but aren't allowed to touch it yet because the teacher hasn't "presented" it?
The whole idea behind Montessori is that kids are allowed to progress when and as they're ready. And if that's one type of subject matter that they spend all their time on, that's OK because they'll move on when they're done and ready. Your son isn't being allowed to progress when and as he's ready. Unless the teacher and school can come up with a way to address that, IMHO the issue of him being bored and acting out is likely to get worse, not better.
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on May 12, 2015 10:34:01 GMT -5
So, I've mentioned before that I practice lazy parenting.
I simply don't engage in power struggles unless I absolutely, 100% have no choice. Granted, it's easier for me bc they don't go to school.
Also, unlike my husband, I don't get worked up about kids not answering or "being rude", I just ignore it. I don't demand an apology and I don't demand that they answer. 9 times out of 10 they calm down and apologize much faster than when my husband starts his "you can't talk to me that way" and "you have to answer when I ask you".
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on May 12, 2015 10:36:16 GMT -5
DS loves learning too, but he doesn't seem to do well in a structured environment. I would have liked him to go to a Montessori preschool but wouldn't that just make the inevitable transition to regular public school even more difficult?
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milee
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Post by milee on May 12, 2015 10:42:40 GMT -5
DS loves learning too, but he doesn't seem to do well in a structured environment. I would have liked him to go to a Montessori preschool but wouldn't that just make the inevitable transition to regular public school even more difficult? Not necessarily.
Their needs can change as they grow and mature. Plus, if you can make them secure and happy with school early on IMHO it sets a good foundation for later even if the type of school is different.
Or, worse case scenario, you find he does better in an unstructured environment even when he's older... so you find an unstructured environment then. It's not really inevitable that they have to be in regular public school. Most areas have alternatives.
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