The Captain
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Post by The Captain on May 13, 2015 8:17:31 GMT -5
"Ignore and Redirect". Not necessarily in this case, I'm just spouting off a behavior strategy I have used over the years with clients and students. It also works on my mother when I'm about to lose it.
As far as the shoes, I second the suggestion for providing choices, whenever possible. If you can follow through with him wearing paper bags on his feet, of course. Because you know a spirited 5 year old will choose the paper bags!
My 15 year old still drags butt in the morning. I have to set contingencies for her, because frankly she just needs the structure. First get yourself 100% ready for school, and Then I will release the computer or phone. I have also discovered that making mornings more enticing is an easy way to get compliance. Face it, mornings suck. Sometimes a hot cup of coffee is what motivates me to get out of bed in the morning. For my daughter, I found that she gets motivated by hot chocolate, or bacon, or something else she really likes. The more motivation my daughter has to do what she needs to do, the more compliance I get.
I'm going to school for this behavior stuff, but with my own kids, in real life, it can be tough. You are not alone! Mother of the year!!!
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973beachbum
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Post by 973beachbum on May 13, 2015 9:30:56 GMT -5
My son can be like this. Man do I hate dealing with a screaming, crying, kid who probably doesn't even know them self why they are doing it. I do agree that most times ignoring the tantrum works best. Most kids object to being told to do something and want a reaction. By denying that reaction the tantrums slowly go away. I will say though that it has to be a safe place. Obviously you can't do this outside where they could run in traffic type of thing. And I know everyone is worried about their feelings. They do have a right to feel unhappy or angry about things. they don't have a right to make everyone around them stop and do what they want though. They also don't have a right to hit or hurt anyone. My DD had a meltdown in JCpenny's once. It was a random Tuesday morning in February so the place was empty except for us and one lone cashier. She threw herself down and started kicking and screaming like a banshee. After I realized she really meant business and wasn't going to stop I looked around and realized we were basically alone. I said let me know when you are done and walked a couple of feet away and pretended to look at clothes. The cashier kept coming over to ask if she was "okay". It was infuriating to me. She would come over just as DD was starting to calm down. As soon as that woman showed her attention she ramped back up to full force. Finally when she came over I said "no she not fine some idiot keeps coming over here and getting her all jacked up again and again". I agree it was rude of me but DD literally stopped after 2 minutes without the attention. My first thought was it's amazing what happens when you don't feed the wild animals. MPL you son seems to be having a battle of wills with the school/teachers. And from the sounds of it he seems to be winning. When he refuses to do anything they all stop and seem to do everything possible to get him to do what he is supposed to. I know school is for learning but maybe he needs to learn that if he refuses to do his work he will get really bored just sitting there with no one paying attention to him. Seriously, if I could get out of actual work at my job, and get lots of nice helpful attention for not doing it I would totally be all over that!
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on May 13, 2015 10:14:43 GMT -5
Ugh! I wrote out a whole post an hour ago, and now I don't see it here. It must not have posted. Grrrr. I can't recreate it all - so I will summarize. (a) I didn't read every post. (b) I also only have experience with 2 5YOs, so my advice is suspect. My two thoughts: 1) With the whole shoe thing, when you engage you are teaching him that throwing a fit gets the whole family to stop and focus on him. When my kids would pull shit like that I would say "The world is still spinning. Get your shoes and be in the car in 5 minutes." They always figured it out - just like your son did when you took away his audience by sitting in the car and leaving him inside. (I didn't figure that out because I was brilliant. I think I just lucked out, because me leaving the room was my insurance of not committing abuse.) 2) Montessori isn't the best place for everyone. Some people / kids need structure. I suspect that he is overwhelmed by the responsibility of channeling his own energy and brain power. So, he is reacting very emotionally by falling in the "I only want what I can't have" deal. He knows if he says that it is the teacher's fault because she won't give more presentations, that he deflected the responsibility back on her. And that worked, because you are sitting here questioning if they are doing enough for him and others are agreeing. Have you considered a school that is more scheduled? I am a person who needs to know that math is from 9 to 10, and lunch is at 11:30. Your son might also be like me. (God help him. ) A lot of people think the only kids who get bored at school are the ones who are so bright they are way ahead. But many kids are bored because they are disengaged from the process and falling behind. I just don't think you can fix that with threats and punishments. It may be that the process and the kid are not a match, and shaking things up just might be the answer.
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973beachbum
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Post by 973beachbum on May 13, 2015 10:43:58 GMT -5
My son is in middle school and made it out of the early years with almost no meltdowns. So naturally he had to get some of them in now. So last week I got a call from the school nurse that he had had a melt down of epic proportions. In his case it turns out it was because of a disagreement with a friend about the content put in a group project. he didn't agree with the way they described the stages of matter thingy. So what does a group of middle school kids do when someone says a fact is wrong? Look it up in a book or computer? Ask a teacher? Nope, they took a vote. I swear there was a small explosion in his head when they told him he lost the vote. So after trying to get the group to understand he was right and the vote didn't actually change the facts one of the boys just wrote it down for DS and signed their names. At which point my wonderful little angel proceeded to grab the paper out of his hands and rip it up while screaming how stupid this was. My worst Mom reaction to this was to bust out laughing that my child's "meltdown of the century" consisted of him ripping up a paper over a disagreement of the definition of a scientific principle. And just to be totally honest it still cracks me up! My best mom moment was I managed to both translate and coach DS to speak "guy" effectively. He wanted to know how to apologize and keep what has always been a good friend. My son leads to the long and involved explanations that normally end with me saying "so you still think you're right" So I told him to just go up and say "Sorry Dude, still friends?" (and nothing more) To which his friend gave a quick head nod and said "We Cool".
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milee
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Post by milee on May 13, 2015 10:49:38 GMT -5
In his case it turns out it was because of a disagreement with a friend about the content put in a group project. he didn't agree with the way they described the stages of matter thingy. So what does a group of middle school kids do when someone says a fact is wrong? Look it up in a book or computer? Ask a teacher? Nope, they took a vote. I swear there was a small explosion in his head when they told him he lost the vote. I like your son.
But the sad thing is that I think the whole vote/group decision thing is how some schools are starting to handle teaching. From math concepts to evolution, we're starting to put "facts" to a vote.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 13, 2015 10:54:23 GMT -5
That reminds me of when older son was in preschool. He got written up for having a meltdown in class and was still kind of crying when I picked him up. I asked him if he understood it wasn't ok to flip out at the teacher and he said, "But Mom, it's a PLANETOID!" He was 4 and this was just around the time they'd reclassified Pluto. He just couldn't deal with them calling it a planet in class.
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Lizard Queen
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Post by Lizard Queen on May 13, 2015 11:13:59 GMT -5
Ugh! I wrote out a whole post an hour ago, and now I don't see it here. It must not have posted. Grrrr. I can't recreate it all - so I will summarize. (a) I didn't read every post. (b) I also only have experience with 2 5YOs, so my advice is suspect. My two thoughts: 1) With the whole shoe thing, when you engage you are teaching him that throwing a fit gets the whole family to stop and focus on him. When my kids would pull shit like that I would say "The world is still spinning. Get your shoes and be in the car in 5 minutes." They always figured it out - just like your son did when you took away his audience by sitting in the car and leaving him inside. (I didn't figure that out because I was brilliant. I think I just lucked out, because me leaving the room was my insurance of not committing abuse.) 2) Montessori isn't the best place for everyone. Some people / kids need structure. I suspect that he is overwhelmed by the responsibility of channeling his own energy and brain power. So, he is reacting very emotionally by falling in the "I only want what I can't have" deal. He knows if he says that it is the teacher's fault because she won't give more presentations, that he deflected the responsibility back on her. And that worked, because you are sitting here questioning if they are doing enough for him and others are agreeing. Have you considered a school that is more scheduled? I am a person who needs to know that math is from 9 to 10, and lunch is at 11:30. Your son might also be like me. (God help him. ) A lot of people think the only kids who get bored at school are the ones who are so bright they are way ahead. But many kids are bored because they are disengaged from the process and falling behind. I just don't think you can fix that with threats and punishments. It may be that the process and the kid are not a match, and shaking things up just might be the answer. My son actually seems to do better with a little more structure, even though he's got a lot of energy. I don't know how he'll be in regular school, though.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 13, 2015 11:27:00 GMT -5
I'm not sure I'm ready to register him in a different school for the Fall yet. This is the end of almost 2 years there and the situation is recent as in the past 2 months or so. Up until then he was doing very well, and they said academically and socially with the other kids he's doing fine (older son got along with the teachers and not the kids so that's all I'm used to). I'm REALLY glad I didn't enroll him in the Summer program there though, I think at the very least he needs a break. I have the meeting with his teacher this afternoon so I'll try to get a better picture of what's happening. I got the feeling from the phone call though that she wants me to provide ideas for what to do with him...as in what works at home. Not sure all my techniques are an option.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on May 13, 2015 12:36:57 GMT -5
My worst Mom reaction to this was to bust out laughing that my child's "meltdown of the century" consisted of him ripping up a paper over a disagreement of the definition of a scientific principle
I'm not seeing anything wrong here. This is the same reaction I have when trying to explain scientific principals to people.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on May 13, 2015 12:54:30 GMT -5
That sounds a lot like DD. After the fact she was always remorseful & crying & would say things like "I want to be good, I just don't know how" and would sometimes talk almost as though there were two of her "sometimes the bad DD comes out & I can't control myslef".
He says the same thing. It breaks my heart, but at the same time, I'm thinking "well, for starters, how about you put on your freaking shoes when I ask?!?" OMG, DD does the same thing. Except I say what MPL is thinking.
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CarolinaKat
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Post by CarolinaKat on May 13, 2015 13:04:30 GMT -5
My son can be like this. Man do I hate dealing with a screaming, crying, kid who probably doesn't even know them self why they are doing it. I do agree that most times ignoring the tantrum works best. Most kids object to being told to do something and want a reaction. By denying that reaction the tantrums slowly go away. I will say though that it has to be a safe place. Obviously you can't do this outside where they could run in traffic type of thing. And I know everyone is worried about their feelings. They do have a right to feel unhappy or angry about things. they don't have a right to make everyone around them stop and do what they want though. They also don't have a right to hit or hurt anyone. My DD had a meltdown in JCpenny's once. It was a random Tuesday morning in February so the place was empty except for us and one lone cashier. She threw herself down and started kicking and screaming like a banshee. After I realized she really meant business and wasn't going to stop I looked around and realized we were basically alone. I said let me know when you are done and walked a couple of feet away and pretended to look at clothes. The cashier kept coming over to ask if she was "okay". It was infuriating to me. She would come over just as DD was starting to calm down. As soon as that woman showed her attention she ramped back up to full force. Finally when she came over I said "no she not fine some idiot keeps coming over here and getting her all jacked up again and again". I agree it was rude of me but DD literally stopped after 2 minutes without the attention. My first thought was it's amazing what happens when you don't feed the wild animals. MPL you son seems to be having a battle of wills with the school/teachers. And from the sounds of it he seems to be winning. When he refuses to do anything they all stop and seem to do everything possible to get him to do what he is supposed to. I know school is for learning but maybe he needs to learn that if he refuses to do his work he will get really bored just sitting there with no one paying attention to him. Seriously, if I could get out of actual work at my job, and get lots of nice helpful attention for not doing it I would totally be all over that! This reminds me of one time I was in a kid's store. There was about a 3yo boy having a total meltdown. Screaming, pounding the floor, OMG the world is ending. He was in front of where I needed to go. His mother was on the other side watching him have this tantrum and not interacting. So I stepped over him. She said 'Thank you' as I passed. I felt so bad for her.
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on May 13, 2015 13:10:00 GMT -5
I know you've said that you don't believe this is related to seeing his dad, but hasn't he been spending a great deal more time with his dad the past couple months? Is it possible this is causing some stress that might be coming out in other areas?
Or maybe I am totally projecting my issues on you.
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Lizard Queen
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Post by Lizard Queen on May 13, 2015 13:15:29 GMT -5
In stores, I just say to people, "he's 2". I did this once with DS1, and once with DS2 just this past weekend. I'm not sure they understand. I just get a weird look.
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milee
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Post by milee on May 13, 2015 13:37:42 GMT -5
My worst Mom reaction to this was to bust out laughing that my child's "meltdown of the century" consisted of him ripping up a paper over a disagreement of the definition of a scientific principle
I'm not seeing anything wrong here. This is the same reaction I have when trying to explain scientific principals to people. My friend sent me this yesterday in response to an issue we're dealing with. Sounds like an Onion piece:
Scientists: Earth Endangered by New Strain of Fact-Resistant Humans
MINNEAPOLIS – Scientists have discovered a powerful new strain of fact-resistant humans who are threatening the ability of Earth to sustain life, a sobering new study reports.
The research, conducted by the University of Minnesota, identifies a virulent strain of humans who are virtually immune to any form of verifiable knowledge, leaving scientists at a loss as to how to combat them.
“These humans appear to have all the faculties necessary to receive and process information,” Davis Logsdon, one of the scientists who contributed to the study, said. “And yet, somehow, they have developed defenses that, for all intents and purposes, have rendered those faculties totally inactive.”
More worryingly, Logsdon said, “As facts have multiplied, their defenses against those facts have only grown more powerful.”
While scientists have no clear understanding of the mechanisms that prevent the fact-resistant humans from absorbing data, they theorize that the strain may have developed the ability to intercept and discard information en route from the auditory nerve to the brain. “The normal functions of human consciousness have been completely nullified,” Logsdon said.
While reaffirming the gloomy assessments of the study, Logsdon held out hope that the threat of fact-resistant humans could be mitigated in the future. “Our research is very preliminary, but it’s possible that they will become more receptive to facts once they are in an environment without food, water, or oxygen,” he said.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 13, 2015 13:38:47 GMT -5
I know you've said that you don't believe this is related to seeing his dad, but hasn't he been spending a great deal more time with his dad the past couple months? Is it possible this is causing some stress that might be coming out in other areas? Or maybe I am totally projecting my issues on you. Well, I wouldn't say it's a "great deal" more time. We upped his every other Saturday from 4 hours to 7. So with the every Wednesday for 2 hours, it's up from 16 hours a month to 22 since January. While it would be convenient to blame this all on his Dad, I don't really see anything either leading up to a visit or after I pick him up that would indicate that to be the case. I would think there would be some kind of behavioral changes. He doesn't get upset when I pick him up nor does he beg to see him during the week, but he's happy to go too and knows Wednesdays are Dad days and which Saturday he goes there.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on May 13, 2015 13:47:18 GMT -5
My kids both did it once. DS was with his Grandma who just shooed everyone else out of the room and watched him from the top of the stairs. Once he realized no one was watching, he stopped. She hollered from where she was, " Are you done now?" He told her he was and everyone went on with their day. So when DD did hers at the Children's Museum in St. Petersburg, I just shooed her Dad and brother off to the spider exhibit and just waited it out. The place is loud and full of kids and their parents. Everyone knew the story because they'd all been there themselves. When she was done, a good 20-25 minutes worth as I recall, we joined her brother and Dad and she got a tarantula to walk on her arm. Creepy child.
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on May 13, 2015 20:04:33 GMT -5
DS just fell asleep for the night. It's about 45 mins earlier than his usual time (for me anyway). We'll see if it makes a difference in his morning mood.
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NastyWoman
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Post by NastyWoman on May 14, 2015 1:58:48 GMT -5
My son is in middle school and made it out of the early years with almost no meltdowns. So naturally he had to get some of them in now. So last week I got a call from the school nurse that he had had a melt down of epic proportions. In his case it turns out it was because of a disagreement with a friend about the content put in a group project. he didn't agree with the way they described the stages of matter thingy. So what does a group of middle school kids do when someone says a fact is wrong? Look it up in a book or computer? Ask a teacher? Nope, they took a vote. I swear there was a small explosion in his head when they told him he lost the vote. So after trying to get the group to understand he was right and the vote didn't actually change the facts one of the boys just wrote it down for DS and signed their names. At which point my wonderful little angel proceeded to grab the paper out of his hands and rip it up while screaming how stupid this was. My worst Mom reaction to this was to bust out laughing that my child's "meltdown of the century" consisted of him ripping up a paper over a disagreement of the definition of a scientific principle. And just to be totally honest it still cracks me up! My best mom moment was I managed to both translate and coach DS to speak "guy" effectively. He wanted to know how to apologize and keep what has always been a good friend. My son leads to the long and involved explanations that normally end with me saying "so you still think you're right" So I told him to just go up and say "Sorry Dude, still friends?" (and nothing more) To which his friend gave a quick head nod and said "We Cool". I have to ask: was your son correct? BTW, I would have laughed too. I even had an expression I used when the kids did something wrong which was so funny that I couldn't help myself:"I may be laughing but you really can't do this, so you get away with it just this once. Do it again and you get punished for this time as well" It doesn't really translate as well as I would like -> it's less wordy in my native language, but you get the gist
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973beachbum
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Post by 973beachbum on May 14, 2015 7:22:02 GMT -5
Tullip I think so. He went into great detail about it but most of it didn't stick and what did didn't make any dent in my now 35 year old memory of that science I learned in school. He was talking about the stages of matter but somehow there was Newton and Heisenberg and Plasma in there. It was like listening to someone on the Big Bang Theory but coming out of my 12 year old. I just basically told him that it didn't matter if he was right because if his people skills suck so bad that no one would ever listen to him. He hates group projects! He just feels that since everyone knows, or should know, how smart he isthey should just let him do all the work and shut up. Yeah he doesn't have any people skill problems.
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on May 14, 2015 8:40:37 GMT -5
well DS slept all the way through the night and resisted when I woke him up at 6:30. After I had to physically pry him from the bed, he was basically cooperative.
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yogiii
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Post by yogiii on May 14, 2015 8:42:06 GMT -5
I am jealous of people who have to wake up their toddlers/preschoolers
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on May 14, 2015 8:48:50 GMT -5
I am jealous of people who have to wake up their toddlers/preschoolers don't worry, he'll probably wake up in the middle of the night tonight then be up for the day at 6.
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yogiii
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Post by yogiii on May 14, 2015 8:52:21 GMT -5
Up for the day at 6 is the best scenario at our house. I waiting for the teen years where they sleep until 11am and you wonder WTH is going on up there.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 14, 2015 8:52:38 GMT -5
I have the hardest time getting younger son out of bed in the morning. It's awful. Lately, I've given that task to older son. I don't think he's all that nice about it some days, but he gets the job done.
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Lizard Queen
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Post by Lizard Queen on May 14, 2015 8:54:17 GMT -5
I am jealous of people who have to wake up their toddlers/preschoolers I've got the best of both worlds. One who wakes up too damn early, and the other who refuses to wake up and causes us to be late because of that. (Refuses the wake up, but kicks his legs at you so you can't get him out of the crib and dressed while he's still sleeping. Plus, he weighs a ton.)
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on May 14, 2015 8:54:46 GMT -5
I am jealous of people who have to wake up their toddlers/preschoolers I have one kid who is a morning guy, and one who is a night owl - so when we are doing family stuff, we start late and end early. Some days that is a real bummer. And some days it is awesome!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 14, 2015 8:56:25 GMT -5
Older son is a morning person. He's almost 13 and still gets up at 5:30am every day even on the weekends. He's happy and cheerful and it's just sickening.
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yogiii
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Post by yogiii on May 14, 2015 8:58:14 GMT -5
Well I guess in a few years I probably won't care but for right now at 2 and 5 they demand that both DH and I physically get out of bed. Or the 5 year old sits there anyway and busts out with a huge monologue, so it isn't very restful, may as well get up. During the week, I leave by 5am, so DH has to deal alone.
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Lizard Queen
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Post by Lizard Queen on May 14, 2015 9:01:54 GMT -5
Our 5 yo, the morning guy, comes into our bed and flops around like a fish out of water, or he jumps across our legs, or just manages to kick us. We have used the TV as a babysitter for some weekend sleeping in time. I have a hard time falling asleep at night, so missing that time in the morning really hurts.
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yogiii
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Post by yogiii on May 14, 2015 9:15:16 GMT -5
Oh yeah, btw all the night time wakeups we used to have for the kids, I still haven't sleep trained myself yet. I wake up every hour at least and it takes me a while to fall asleep at night. Sometimes I still hear phantom crying which is the worst
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