Help me with my preschooler...

[Deleted]

May 12, 2015 10:33:22 GMT -5 milee said:

May 12, 2015 10:22:08 GMT -5 minnesotapaintlady said:

I've asked about school.  He wants more presentations (they have to get a presentation before they can start a new work), wants to play with his friend instead, doesn't like the work he's being asked to do...

Each child gets one to two presentations a week.  That's all there is time for because there are 20 kids in the class.  They are also free to work on a variety of materials, but there are some things in their work plan that they are directed towards so they're not spending all their time doing one type of subject matter. 

I'll get more insight into how much he is "forced" into a particular task, but from the phone call it sounds like several options are given. 

From my understanding of Montessori - both my kids went to Montessori schools for a few years - this doesn't sound like the Montessori approach is really being followed. Sounds like a hybrid and part of the problem. (Not that I think Montessori is the be all, end all.)

Your son is saying he's bored. He wants to move on explore other, new things but he can't because he has to wait until the teacher has time to "present" the new lesson or activity. IMHO, that could become a very big problem. Especially for an intelligent, active boy. Bored boys get into trouble. And who can blame them? They have huge stores of pent up energy and intellectual curiosity but are forced to sit and do something that's repetitive and boring when they can see the next new, interesting thing but aren't allowed to touch it yet because the teacher hasn't "presented" it?

The whole idea behind Montessori is that kids are allowed to progress when and as they're ready. And if that's one type of subject matter that they spend all their time on, that's OK because they'll move on when they're done and ready. Your son isn't being allowed to progress when and as he's ready. Unless the teacher and school can come up with a way to address that, IMHO the issue of him being bored and acting out is likely to get worse, not better.

"Materials Presentation" is part of the regular Montessori method.  They're not allowed to just tear about the room and play with all the materials.  They are to be properly shown how to use them before they can choose those works. 

He can work on anything he's been presented on.  This year or last year.  There's a ton of choices, but he'll choose the long chain when some other kid is working on it.  Get pissed he can't do it and refuse any other options. 

[MJ2.0]

May 12, 2015 10:42:40 GMT -5 milee said:

May 12, 2015 10:36:16 GMT -5 MJ2.0 said:

DS loves learning too, but he doesn't seem to do well in a structured environment. I would have liked him to go to a Montessori preschool but wouldn't that just make the inevitable transition to regular public school even more difficult?

Not necessarily.

Their needs can change as they grow and mature.  Plus, if you can make them secure and happy with school early on IMHO it sets a good foundation for later even if the type of school is different.

Or, worse case scenario, you find he does better in an unstructured environment even when he's older... so you find an unstructured environment then.  It's not really inevitable that they have to be in regular public school.  Most areas have alternatives.

for me/us, public school is inevitable as there is no money for private/alternative school.

[Deleted]

May 12, 2015 10:36:16 GMT -5 MJ2.0 said:

DS loves learning too, but he doesn't seem to do well in a structured environment. I would have liked him to go to a Montessori preschool but wouldn't that just make the inevitable transition to regular public school even more difficult?

I'll let you know in about a year and a half when older son goes to high school.  Actually, mine might not be a good example because he hates homework and isn't adapting well to that change this year, but the last 5 years 80% of the alumni from the Montessori have been on the honor roll at the two high schools, so the transition works well for a lot of the kids. 

[milee]

May 12, 2015 10:42:59 GMT -5 minnesotapaintlady said:

May 12, 2015 10:33:22 GMT -5 milee said:

From my understanding of Montessori - both my kids went to Montessori schools for a few years - this doesn't sound like the Montessori approach is really being followed. Sounds like a hybrid and part of the problem. (Not that I think Montessori is the be all, end all.)

Your son is saying he's bored. He wants to move on explore other, new things but he can't because he has to wait until the teacher has time to "present" the new lesson or activity. IMHO, that could become a very big problem. Especially for an intelligent, active boy. Bored boys get into trouble. And who can blame them? They have huge stores of pent up energy and intellectual curiosity but are forced to sit and do something that's repetitive and boring when they can see the next new, interesting thing but aren't allowed to touch it yet because the teacher hasn't "presented" it?

The whole idea behind Montessori is that kids are allowed to progress when and as they're ready. And if that's one type of subject matter that they spend all their time on, that's OK because they'll move on when they're done and ready. Your son isn't being allowed to progress when and as he's ready. Unless the teacher and school can come up with a way to address that, IMHO the issue of him being bored and acting out is likely to get worse, not better.

"Materials Presentation" is part of the regular Montessori method.  They're not allowed to just tear about the room and play with all the materials.  They are to be properly shown how to use them before they can choose those works. 

He can work on anything he's been presented on.  This year or last year.  There's a ton of choices, but he'll choose the long chain when some other kid is working on it.  Get pissed he can't do it and refuse any other options. 

I understand the materials presentation thing and it's something I don't really like about Montessori, but it not the issue here.  It sounds like the problem is that he wants to move on to learning new things and can't because the teacher only has time to do presentations for 1-2 new things a week.  Your son is saying that's not fast enough, he needs more new things.

Not unusual for smart, active boys.  They learn and get bored quickly.  They need a lot of new stimulation and unstructured play time with creative materials (like Lego where they can create anything).  It sounds like your son needs to be able to move faster than the teacher is able to let him and that he needs more stimulation or unstructured activity time so he can stir up his own brain. 

BTW, I completely understand what your son is saying because I'm similar even as an adult.  The idea of having to sit still all day and do work that is inflexible, boring and repetitive makes me literally twitch.  He's so bored, it's making him frustrated and act out.  If you can find out how to keep his mind active and interested a lot of the defiance may go away because it's how he's showing you his frustration.  JMO.

[Deleted]

May 12, 2015 10:28:58 GMT -5 whoisjohngalt said:

Wait, are you saying that 5 yr olds are not suppose to behave that way

I don't know, this is only my second dealings with a 5 year old.

To me, he seems to be acting the way I would picture the stereotypical "terrible twos" kid would act.  It does seem odd for 5.  Maybe because he never did it at 2 and 3? 

[Angel!]

I've been having similar problems with DD (4 yrs old) although it sounds like for different reasons.  With her there seems to be two factors - either it is a boundary pushing, attention getting behavior - she will look at you & smirk & then do the one thing you just said not to do, or she also has anger issues. With the anger issues, something tiny will set her off & she just loses it & can't calm down - she screams, throws things, & sometimes leads to hitting, kicking, a month ago she bit a teacher

It sounds different than your DS's problems, so what we have been working on may not help.  But first, the school has been awesome.  When she started acting out, they didn't come to me & say "you have a bad kid" or anything like that, what the director actually said was "how can we help you to help her?".  Of course my first kid was awesome so my response was basically "I don't know, what do you usually do with kids like this?". 

Out of curiousity - what is an office referral?  Is he getting taken out of class?  I only ask because with DD's school they are big on not removing the kids from class unless the kid is fully out of control.  The getting taken out of class for such young kids can be received as getting special attention & can reinforce the bad behavior. 

Anyway, our school has a behavioral specialists that works with the school, so she started coming in once/week to watch DD for a while just to see what is setting off the behavior & ways to help.  Then she has started attending Dinosaur School, which is a program you can look up, but they may or may not have it available near you.  It is a class geared towards this age group that deals with feelings, making good choices, etc.  DD loves it!

Then we've been working on rewards.  At home we had a point system for a while.  The kids help me set it up.  We made a list of all the things that earn you points - getting dressed in the morning, putting shoes on, hanging up coat & backpack when we come home, getting ready for bed, etc.  Basically all the day to day stuff & then she can randomly get extra points for doing something nice or helpful - like helping her brother put on his coat.  Then we made a list of how you lose points, although I really tried not to take them away.  I tried to make it about positive reinforcement, not negative reinforcement.  But that list was just - not following the rules.  Then we made a whole list of things you earn with points - movie night with popcorn, happy meal, a small toy, stickers, etc & how many points were needed with each. 

The point system has helped a little in helping her calm down when angry, but worked fantastically for just getting her day to day stuff done because she likes earning points.  She also loves checklists & steps.  When getting for bed she likes to come ask me for steps...Step one - brush teeth, then she'll come back & say "check, what's step two?"

Not sure if any of that helps you, but that is what we have been working on & it has been getting better for us.

[weltschmerz]

May 12, 2015 9:32:04 GMT -5 minnesotapaintlady said:

I think I have trouble brewing with my almost 5 year old.  He's received 3 office referrals in the past couple weeks and the teachers don't know what to do with him.  He basically just gets to where he just refuses to do what is asked of him and is disrespectful of the teachers and the materials (throwing things, talking snotty).  I have to leave work early tomorrow to go in and talk to his teacher, but I don't know what to tell her.  I have the same issue at home and I'm pretty sure the way I deal with it is not helpful.  Lots of big power struggles and me just sending him to bed...which btw, he can sleep like nothing else.  Last night I put him to bed at 6:30 and I still could hardly get him out of bed at 6am.  I'm really, really hoping he's just going through a major growth spurt or something, but my gut says this is headed for worse things if we can't figure it out.

He was fine the first half of the year and all last year (although that was just 2 days a week).  Things with his Dad have been pretty benign and visits have been regular and uneventful, so I don't think that is contributing.  His behavior doesn't seem to correlate with the visits at all.  It's more that he just gets in these stubborn moods where come hell or high water he will not do what you ask or if he does, it's with a lot of anger and acting all sassy.  

This morning he didn't want to put his shoes on.  He just sat there and refused, saying he didn't know how to tie his shoes.  I told him he didn't have to tie them that I would, but just put them on.  After several minutes of arguing with him he just threw them down the basement steps.  I told him if he didn't go get his shoes he couldn't play with his Legos when he got home.  His solution to that, got up and got his Legos and threatened to throw them in the garbage.  I told him if he wanted to throw them away, then fine, he wouldn't have any.  Then he starts crying that I want him to throw his Legos away.  At this point I wanted to kill him so I said he needed to go get his shoes on because I was leaving.  And I did.  I went into the garage, got in the van and pulled out into the driveway.  Within 30 seconds he was out there with shoes on screaming and crying.  About 5 or 10 minutes into the drive he snapped out of his funk and was fine.

It's very frustrating.  I never had to deal with defiance with his brother, so no clue what to do. 

Have you tried giving him more choices, so he feels more in control?

How about, instead of saying "Put on your shoes!", you can say "Which shoes would you like to put on?"

It changes the entire dynamic.

[Deleted]

Angel! He does sometimes get himself worked up where he doesn't know what to do.  We were at the zoo a few weeks ago and he was upset over not getting ice cream and it got to the point where it was just ridiculous. Hitting, yelling, crying.  We sat down on a bench and I said we weren't going anywhere until he stopped acting like this.  He was crying and telling me he didn't know how to stop and asking me what to do.  Then later he just snaps out and says "Eli is back now". (yeah, that does kind of freak me out a little when he says that!)

An office referral is a discipline report form.  It outlines the issue, the "level of the infraction" either major or minor, what was done (time out, loss of privileges, sent to the office, etc) and the child has to draw a picture of the rule the broke and another picture showing how they can be more respectful next time.  Office referral forms go to the office and a copy is sent to the parent.  

I think he'd like a point system, but I think I'D be the one to misuse it.  "Put your shoes on and I'll give you 5 extra points!". 

[Deleted]

May 12, 2015 11:25:37 GMT -5 weltschmerz said:

Have you tried giving him more choices, so he feels more in control?

How about, instead of saying "Put on your shoes!", you can say "Which shoes would you like to put on?"

It changes the entire dynamic.

Except he only has one pair. 

[Lizard Queen]

May 12, 2015 11:27:47 GMT -5 minnesotapaintlady said:

Angel! He does sometimes get himself worked up where he doesn't know what to do.  We were at the zoo a few weeks ago and he was upset over not getting ice cream and it got to the point where it was just ridiculous. Hitting, yelling, crying.  We sat down on a bench and I said we weren't going anywhere until he stopped acting like this.  He was crying and telling me he didn't know how to stop and asking me what to do.  Then later he just snaps out and says "Eli is back now". (yeah, that does kind of freak me out a little when he says that!)

An office referral is a discipline report form.  It outlines the issue, the "level of the infraction" either major or minor, what was done (time out, loss of privileges, sent to the office, etc) and the child has to draw a picture of the rule the broke and another picture showing how they can be more respectful next time.  Office referral forms go to the office and a copy is sent to the parent.  

I think he'd like a point system, but I think I'D be the one to misuse it.  "Put your shoes on and I'll give you 5 extra points!". 

Maybe some breathing exercises?  Like, have him practice deep breathing when he is calm, then see if you can get him to do that when he is worked up.

[Angel!]

May 12, 2015 11:27:47 GMT -5 minnesotapaintlady said:

Angel! He does sometimes get himself worked up where he doesn't know what to do.  We were at the zoo a few weeks ago and he was upset over not getting ice cream and it got to the point where it was just ridiculous. Hitting, yelling, crying.  We sat down on a bench and I said we weren't going anywhere until he stopped acting like this.  He was crying and telling me he didn't know how to stop and asking me what to do.  Then later he just snaps out and says "Eli is back now". (yeah, that does kind of freak me out a little when he says that!)

An office referral is a discipline report form.  It outlines the issue, the "level of the infraction" either major or minor, what was done (time out, loss of privileges, sent to the office, etc) and the child has to draw a picture of the rule the broke and another picture showing how they can be more respectful next time.  Office referral forms go to the office and a copy is sent to the parent.  

I think he'd like a point system, but I think I'D be the one to misuse it.  "Put your shoes on and I'll give you 5 extra points!". 

Whatever works!  I did that a little with the point system.  Then the kids starting taking advantage of it - always asking for points for every little thing they did.  But, it did get them to develop much better habits & getting ready for school or for bed isn't the fight it use to be.

That sounds a lot like DD.  After the fact she was always remorseful & crying & would say things like "I want to be good, I just don't know how" and would sometimes talk almost as though there were two of her "sometimes the bad DD comes out & I can't control myslef".  You could work with him on calming techniques.  Poor DD - between myself, teachers & Dino school she has been given so many suggestions that I think it overwhelms her.  Some of the things she has been taught to do - take three deep breaths, count to 5, punch a pillow, curl up into a little ball (tiny turtle) & say to herself "I can calm down, I can calm down".  Then one teacher cuts her lilacs almost everyday - I guess the smell is supposed to be calming & tells her to smell the flowers when she starts getting upset.  The only problem is when she is extremely upset, no suggestions get through to her at that point. 

It wouldn't work well in public, but sometimes I tell her to scream.  I count to 3 & tell her to scream as loud as she can to get all her anger out.  I think that it uses a lot of energy & then being told to scream takes some of the fun out of screaming, so usually she can only get 1 or 2 out before she calms down.  Usually she is still upset, but it gets her past the screaming & throwing thing stage & then she just cries.

[ArchietheDragon]

when my 6 year old gets really worked up I put her on her bed and lay on her, holding her arms and legs down until she calms down. Does that get me any awards?

[Green Eyed Lady]

May 12, 2015 11:45:32 GMT -5 ArchietheDragon said:

when my 6 year old gets really worked up I put her on her bed and lay on her, holding her arms and legs down until she calms down. Does that get me any awards?

LOL!!  It kind of makes you like my mother.  I just asked her what she would do in a situation like this and..well...I already knew.  It's probably not something anybody would be in favor of trying.

[Deleted]

On the subject of being normal...Link

[Green Eyed Lady]

If it's any consolation, my niece, who spends time with me, went through that stage.  But it passed.  Thank Heavens.  I just waited her out when she was being defiant. 

Want to play Mousetrap?  You have to pick up the Barbie stuff first. 

I can wait. 

Want dessert?  You have to finish your dinner first. 

I can wait. 

I had the luxury of a lot of time and no place I had to be.  If she wanted to take 3 hours to pick up the Barbie stuff, I had the time.  I know not all parents can do that.  If I'm remembering correctly, this stuff went on for a year or so.  My brother muttered something (in between pulling his hair out and babbling) about her finding her independence.  I don't have kids so I have no clue what it's like dealing with them 24/7.  Not sure I'd have the patience I have if it was a full-time thing. 

[Deleted]

May 12, 2015 11:44:13 GMT -5 Angel! said:

That sounds a lot like DD.  After the fact she was always remorseful & crying & would say things like "I want to be good, I just don't know how" and would sometimes talk almost as though there were two of her "sometimes the bad DD comes out & I can't control myslef". 

He says the same thing.  It breaks my heart, but at the same time, I'm thinking "well, for starters, how about you put on your freaking shoes when I ask?!?"

[Deleted]

We were at the zoo a few weeks ago and he was upset over not getting ice cream and it got to the point where it was just ridiculous. Hitting, yelling, crying. We sat down on a bench and I said we weren't going anywhere until he stopped acting like this. He was crying and telling me he didn't know how to stop and asking me what to do. Then later he just snaps out and says "Eli is back now".

That sounds a lot like what would happen to LGW. Once the fit started she couldn't stop it even if she wanted to. She went to counselling for anger management. It help somewhat but I think it is a physiological issue and they will get her medication when she is older.

[Deleted]

May 12, 2015 11:59:38 GMT -5 laterbloomer said:

On the subject of being normal...Link

[Wisconsin Beth]

I'm evil MPL - I start work at 630 so DH has to deal with getting them dressed and out of the house.  I do try to make sure lunches are packed before I leave though. 

[Deleted]

May 12, 2015 12:02:20 GMT -5 laterbloomer said:

We were at the zoo a few weeks ago and he was upset over not getting ice cream and it got to the point where it was just ridiculous. Hitting, yelling, crying. We sat down on a bench and I said we weren't going anywhere until he stopped acting like this. He was crying and telling me he didn't know how to stop and asking me what to do. Then later he just snaps out and says "Eli is back now".

That sounds a lot like what would happen to LGW. Once the fit started she couldn't stop it even if she wanted to. She went to counselling for anger management. It help somewhat but I think it is a physiological issue and they will get her medication when she is older.

This is what in the back of my mind I worry about.  His Dad was diagnosed with several problems including Explosive Anger Disorder where he just would lose control entirely.  A lot of that is genetic, so I worry about letting something go until it gets to where he's a teen and takes it to a whole nother level.

[Deleted]

May 12, 2015 12:12:46 GMT -5 minnesotapaintlady said:

May 12, 2015 12:02:20 GMT -5 laterbloomer said:

That sounds a lot like what would happen to LGW. Once the fit started she couldn't stop it even if she wanted to. She went to counselling for anger management. It help somewhat but I think it is a physiological issue and they will get her medication when she is older.

This is what in the back of my mind I worry about.  His Dad was diagnosed with several problems including Explosive Anger Disorder where he just would lose control entirely.  A lot of that is genetic, so I worry about letting something go until it gets to where he's a teen and takes it to a whole nother level.

Tell your doctor your concerns and have him checked. Better safe than sorry.

[Deleted]

May 12, 2015 11:45:32 GMT -5 ArchietheDragon said:

when my 6 year old gets really worked up I put her on her bed and lay on her, holding her arms and legs down until she calms down. Does that get me any awards?

I'm not sure that would work on him, but if it would, I'd do it.

I have drug him into his room and put (dropped) him in his bed and left with the warning that every single thing he threw would be throw away and I've gone back in there and chucked out toys that I heard hitting the walls and door.  This, btw does not help.  It just escalates the rage attack.

[ArchietheDragon]

May 12, 2015 12:15:54 GMT -5 minnesotapaintlady said:

May 12, 2015 11:45:32 GMT -5 ArchietheDragon said:

when my 6 year old gets really worked up I put her on her bed and lay on her, holding her arms and legs down until she calms down. Does that get me any awards?

I'm not sure that would work on him, but if it would, I'd do it.

I have drug him into his room and put (dropped) him in his bed and left with the warning that every single thing he threw would be throw away and I've gone back in there and chucked out toys that I heard hitting the walls and door.  This, btw does not help.  It just escalates the rage attack.

My daughter would do that do.   Laying on her and pinning in her arms and legs does help, though.   She yells and screams and tries to get away for 5 or 10 minutes.  Then she eventually clams down.   Usually she has the breakdown because she is tired, so fighting tires her out even more.  When she does calm down we snuggle and talk about what happened. 

[Deleted]

MPL as a parent you can contact Children's services for support. I took a parenting course through CAS here that I wish I had taken before I got LGW. I would have not made mistakes that escalated the issue.

[Shooby]

First, dont' argue with toddlers. That just sets up more defiance. I would just say "Put your shoes on, we are leaving". And, yeah, if he didn't, I might coax a few times, but after that, I pick him up and his shoes and put him in the car. Don't give them too many choices. Don't ask their opinion. I like being direct. But, yes, you are going to get resistance at times. That's OK. Then you either walk away or redirect their attention. And, saying "oh you can't play with legos" tonight, probably won't work because 5 yr olds can't really think that far ahead. It's OK. It's just normal stuff.

[MJ2.0]

DS gets time outs for misbehavior when we're home. Then I stoop down physically to his level and talk to him about why he's in time out. We then hug it out and I tell him I love him. It has mixed results.

[Deleted]

May 12, 2015 11:30:01 GMT -5 @sroo4 said:

Then the choice is... put on your shoes or wear these paper bags on your feet.  It doesn't have to necessarily be a choice that he likes or the outcome is equivalent. 

So this...

[Abby Normal]

When DS was that age, he was very affected by what he ate, or didn't eat. If he ate too much sugar, he was unbearable.  If he, got hungry (though he wouldn't realize  he was hungry) he was unbearable.  So mornings were not pleasant. He had a few issues at school, mostly in the afternoon, because he wasn't eating enough for lunch.  Once I got his food straightened out, things were much better.

Not saying that is it, but there might be other possibilities, other than just stubbornness and boundary testing.

I have a friend whose child was diagnosed with ODD (oppositional defiant disorder).  So if it continues it may be something you want to talk to the pediatrician about. 

[Angel!]

May 12, 2015 12:18:50 GMT -5 ArchietheDragon said:

May 12, 2015 12:15:54 GMT -5 minnesotapaintlady said:

I'm not sure that would work on him, but if it would, I'd do it.

I have drug him into his room and put (dropped) him in his bed and left with the warning that every single thing he threw would be throw away and I've gone back in there and chucked out toys that I heard hitting the walls and door.  This, btw does not help.  It just escalates the rage attack.

My daughter would do that do.   Laying on her and pinning in her arms and legs does help, though.   She yells and screams and tries to get away for 5 or 10 minutes.  Then she eventually clams down.   Usually she has the breakdown because she is tired, so fighting tires her out even more.  When she does calm down we snuggle and talk about what happened. 

I don't think I could physically do that. Generally interaction upsets DD A LOT more & I am pretty sure I would end up head-butted or bitten if I physically tried to restrain her.

I've done the taking toys away. But usually that escalates quite a bit before she calms down, so it has to be a situation that is so dire it warrants that.  And by escalating quite a bit, I mean I've endured 45 minutes of screaming & throwing things & having to keep putting her back in her room while I empty her room out toy by toy.  It just isn't a good tactic for her because it becomes an absolute battle of wills.

[Angel!]

May 12, 2015 12:12:46 GMT -5 minnesotapaintlady said:

May 12, 2015 12:02:20 GMT -5 laterbloomer said:

That sounds a lot like what would happen to LGW. Once the fit started she couldn't stop it even if she wanted to. She went to counselling for anger management. It help somewhat but I think it is a physiological issue and they will get her medication when she is older.

This is what in the back of my mind I worry about.  His Dad was diagnosed with several problems including Explosive Anger Disorder where he just would lose control entirely.  A lot of that is genetic, so I worry about letting something go until it gets to where he's a teen and takes it to a whole nother level.

I worry about this too.