"Ladies' Menu"?

[Green Eyed Lady]

sexist
[ séksist ]
Adjective
1.believing that one sex is inferior to the other in a variety of attributes
synonyms: male · masculine · macho · sexist · chauvinist · stereotypical ·
archetypal
More2.resulting from or relating to the belief that one sex is inferior to the other in a variety of attributes
somebody who believes that one sex is inferior to the other

[hoops902]

Oct 6, 2014 15:30:04 GMT -5 Green Eyed Lady said:

sexist
[ séksist ]
Adjective
1.believing that one sex is inferior to the other in a variety of attributes
synonyms: male · masculine · macho · sexist · chauvinist · stereotypical ·
archetypal
More2.resulting from or relating to the belief that one sex is inferior to the other in a variety of attributes
somebody who believes that one sex is inferior to the other

So you found a website that also doesn't know the definition?  Mine came from Merriam Webster.  This is why it's impossible to have any kind of conversation with some people, they simply make up definitions of words.

You don't know the basic definitions of the words you're arguing about.  Educate yourself, then come back to the conversation.  Or did you mean by "old fashioned" that you don't think women should be educated either?

[973beachbum]

Oct 6, 2014 15:39:25 GMT -5 hoops902 said:

Oct 6, 2014 15:30:04 GMT -5 Green Eyed Lady said:

sexist
[ séksist ]
Adjective
1.believing that one sex is inferior to the other in a variety of attributes
synonyms: male · masculine · macho · sexist · chauvinist · stereotypical ·
archetypal
More2.resulting from or relating to the belief that one sex is inferior to the other in a variety of attributes
somebody who believes that one sex is inferior to the other

So you found a website that also doesn't know the definition?  Mine came from Merriam Webster.  This is why it's impossible to have any kind of conversation with some people, they simply make up definitions of words.

You don't know the basic definitions of the words you're arguing about.  Educate yourself, then come back to the conversation.  Or did you mean by "old fashioned" that you don't think women should be educated either?

So you are now the arbiter of what definition of a word is allowed?  Who died and made you king of the internet?

For the record both the definitions are REALLY close.  The only difference is you used sexism and she used sexist.  The end result is still the same IMO.

[Green Eyed Lady]

When you add an "ist" to the end of a word, it basically denotes a belief - in the case of "sexist" - it denotes the belief that one gender is inferior to the other.

When you add an "ism" to the end of the word, it basically denotes a practice based on a belief - in the case of "sexism" - it denotes that an action is taken (like discrimination based on the belief that one sex is inferior to the other).  IF that had been what we were discussing, your definition would have been correct.

We were talking about "sexist".  As is "old fashioned and sexist are not the same thing".   My definition is correct.  Sometimes a simple, "I was wrong." rather than basically calling someone stupid to save face is the higher ground.  Not that I expected it. 

Now that I've educated myself (and you), may I come back to the conversation? 

[cronewitch]

I think women are different from men, not better or worse. Men in general are taller and stronger, woman are better at detail work and calmer. Culture has woman dressing to make themselves handicapped like high heel shoes and ball gowns at times. I don't care if a man doesn't open my door for me or pull out my chair when I am capable of doing it myself. What I do like is him paying attention to my safety and comfort like if I was dressed wearing high heels he should be handy to hold on to walking down hill in the rain not running off ahead for me to catch up alone so he can get out of the rain. If I were wearing a gown it would be nice if he made sure my fabric was all in a shut the door for me so I didn't have a struggle. I also like when they do things that are heavy for me even if I can like carry a watermelon into the house and to kill spiders and take away dead mice or things like that.

I still think I should be paid the same if my job doesn't require being tall or strong and if I had to I would deal with spiders and mice I just like when someone else does it.

[Deleted]

Oct 6, 2014 13:33:25 GMT -5 Green Eyed Lady said:

Oct 6, 2014 12:30:32 GMT -5 @singlemominmd said:

so would you be ok if your boss all of a sudden decided that a man needed your job more than you because as a man he had a family to support?

Why in the world would that be "ok" and what does the question have to do with my post?

because it goes to the fact that there are women who want to be equal some of the time (equal pay for equal work) but then want to have old-fashioned ideas (opening the door simply because one is a man and one is a woman).  another posted pointed out the same thing.

[Deleted]

Oct 6, 2014 14:54:54 GMT -5 hoops902 said:

::Why in the world would that be "ok" and what does the question have to do with my post?::

Because you seem to be arguing that whether people are sexist or not is ok, and neither is "wrong".  Or more specifically, that in some cases you advocate for sexism when it suits you, but you certainly wouldn't be ok with it as in the above example.  You are making an argument for sexism in some cases by labeling it as "old fashioned"...but as with the equality discussion, you only want to be "old fashioned" when it is to your benefit.

or I could have read ahead and said

of course Armageddon is upon us as I'm agreeing with hoops

[billisonboard]

Oct 6, 2014 15:30:04 GMT -5 Green Eyed Lady said:

sexist
[ séksist ]
Adjective
1.believing that one sex is inferior to the other in a variety of attributes
synonyms: male · ...

synonym
[sin-uh-nim]

Examples
Word Origin

noun
1.
a word having the same or nearly the same meaning as another in the language, as happy, joyful, elated.

So male has the same or nearly the same meaning as sexist? 

[Deleted]

Oct 6, 2014 17:30:41 GMT -5 @singlemominmd said:

Oct 6, 2014 13:33:25 GMT -5 Green Eyed Lady said:

Why in the world would that be "ok" and what does the question have to do with my post?

because it goes to the fact that there are women who want to be equal some of the time (equal pay for equal work) but then want to have old-fashioned ideas (opening the door simply because one is a man and one is a woman).  another posted pointed out the same thing.

I think that employment is totally different from having old fashioned ideas about certain aspects of personal relationships, which is what Green Eyed Lady referred to originally.

[Deleted]

Oct 6, 2014 19:15:42 GMT -5 @pinkcshmere said:

Oct 6, 2014 17:30:41 GMT -5 @singlemominmd said:

because it goes to the fact that there are women who want to be equal some of the time (equal pay for equal work) but then want to have old-fashioned ideas (opening the door simply because one is a man and one is a woman).  another posted pointed out the same thing.

I think that employment is totally different from having old fashioned ideas about certain aspects of personal relationships, which is what Green Eyed Lady referred to originally.

I disagree, I think they're entirely the same.  either woman are equal in all aspects or they aren't - you can't pick and choose when you want to be equal.

[ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ]

I don't see what equality has to do with the "Ladies Menu".

They're not all that common in North America - and you *might* happen to run across one in an uppity-up private club or very upscale restaurant, but rarely.

As someone mentioned earlier, having "Guest Menu" on the unpriced one would be a more updated and less offensive to some who may be raging feminists - and also more appropriate since women are now in higher executive positions or are the bigger wage-earner in the family, and being the person in position to be treating and paying the tab for their client/guest.

I've only had one or two instances in my lifetime where an unpriced menu was given to me - and the person who was taking me to lunch was a member of a private club. He no doubt made arrangements for the separate menu when he made the reservation.

Whenever we've dined out at a finer restaurant around here, the server usually presents the tab at the end of the meal by placing the folder on the table - period - without assuming the man is going to be paying and automatically giving it to them. If more than two people at the table, same thing. They simply place the folder or tab on the table, then leave you to finish your drinks or whatever, and then returning a few minutes later to run the credit card - from whomever.

[billisonboard]

Oct 6, 2014 20:43:39 GMT -5 ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ said:

I don't see what equality has to do with the "Ladies Menu".

They're not all that common in North America - and you *might* happen to run across one in an uppity-up private club or very upscale restaurant, but rarely.

As someone mentioned earlier, having "Guest Menu" on the unpriced one would be a more updated and less offensive to some who may be raging feminists - ...

I've only had one or two instances in my lifetime where an unpriced menu was given to me - and the person who was taking me to lunch was a member of a private club.. ...

Oct 4, 2014 8:14:48 GMT -5 bobosensei said:

I've been to plenty of country clubs where I got a "guest" menu.  Same idea, and I don't mind.

A guest menu is given to a non-member at a private establishment at which the non-member is only allowed to be due to an invitation from a member. A Ladies' Menu is given to a person of a particular gender at a public establishment. Same thing? If so, what "establishment" are women not a member of?

[billisonboard]

Oct 6, 2014 21:11:06 GMT -5 @dayjawho said:

I think I'm beginning to see why some guys have a problem getting any.

See, most women really don't mind if you don't slap 'em on the back, scratch your balls and discuss that last touch down in the interest of making sure we are equal and call if foreplay. 

We've come a long way baby. But you're not gonna come at all. 

Not sure what you are saying here. What should guys be doing to "get some"?

[billisonboard]

Oct 6, 2014 21:22:46 GMT -5 @dayjawho said:

Oct 6, 2014 21:20:56 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Not sure what you are saying here. What should guys be doing to "get some"?

How about not acting like you're trying to sleep with the enemy? 

Cool. What should guys do?

[Deleted]

Oct 6, 2014 19:50:28 GMT -5 Sum Dum Gai said:

Oct 6, 2014 19:15:42 GMT -5 @pinkcshmere said:

I think that employment is totally different from having old fashioned ideas about certain aspects of personal relationships, which is what Green Eyed Lady referred to originally.

So, you're OK with the spectrum of believing women should treated differently from men, but only with certain behaviors on the left hand side of said spectrum, but not those on the right which is women being treated differently as it relates to employment, pay, etc? Not that surprising, most women seem to be. I think propogating the underlying belief is just as stupid as propogating the belief that certain people are different because of the color of their skin.

What I'm ok with is having equal emplyment opportunities as men and having equal pay for equal work.

In my personal life, I'm ok with the men I date treating me like a lady and not one of his running buddies. I'm no longer cautious about saying here that I believe men are suppose to provide and protect. And I believe a woman is suppose to be able to provide for and protect herself.

There, I said it again. Shrug.

[bobosensei]

Oct 6, 2014 21:14:45 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Oct 6, 2014 20:43:39 GMT -5 ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ said:

I don't see what equality has to do with the "Ladies Menu".

They're not all that common in North America - and you *might* happen to run across one in an uppity-up private club or very upscale restaurant, but rarely.

As someone mentioned earlier, having "Guest Menu" on the unpriced one would be a more updated and less offensive to some who may be raging feminists - ...

I've only had one or two instances in my lifetime where an unpriced menu was given to me - and the person who was taking me to lunch was a member of a private club.. ...

Oct 4, 2014 8:14:48 GMT -5 bobosensei said:

I've been to plenty of country clubs where I got a "guest" menu.  Same idea, and I don't mind.

A guest menu is given to a non-member at a private establishment at which the non-member is only allowed to be due to an invitation from a member. A Ladies' Menu is given to a person of a particular gender at a public establishment. Same thing? If so, what "establishment" are women not a member of?

It's the same to me because I wouldn't take either situation to be an insult on my intelligence or an insinuation that I can't or shouldn't be concerned with money.  If I was in a situation where I got a ladies menu and needed to know the prices I would ask to switch menus with whoever I was at dinner with or ask them the prices.  I wouldn't make a scene over it or let it ruin my life.

[CarolinaKat]

Oct 6, 2014 21:14:45 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Oct 6, 2014 20:43:39 GMT -5 ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ said:

I don't see what equality has to do with the "Ladies Menu".

They're not all that common in North America - and you *might* happen to run across one in an uppity-up private club or very upscale restaurant, but rarely.

As someone mentioned earlier, having "Guest Menu" on the unpriced one would be a more updated and less offensive to some who may be raging feminists - ...

I've only had one or two instances in my lifetime where an unpriced menu was given to me - and the person who was taking me to lunch was a member of a private club.. ...

Oct 4, 2014 8:14:48 GMT -5 bobosensei said:

I've been to plenty of country clubs where I got a "guest" menu.  Same idea, and I don't mind.

A guest menu is given to a non-member at a private establishment at which the non-member is only allowed to be due to an invitation from a member. A Ladies' Menu is given to a person of a particular gender at a public establishment. Same thing? If so, what "establishment" are women not a member of?

Guest Menus were given out at my rehersal dinner. Several other large gatherings i've attended at resturants, birthday celebrations, 50th wedding anniversaries, babyshowers, etc also have guest menus even though they are not held at a private club. You request them upfront when making arrangements for the large party.

[Wisconsin Beth]

Oct 6, 2014 14:37:41 GMT -5 Sum Dum Gai said:

Oct 6, 2014 14:35:07 GMT -5 Chocolate Lover said:

My new theory on door opening is that the doors of cars used to be really heavy and no weak little lady would be able to wrestle one open. Hence guys had to do it.   Discuss.

Were chairs really heavy back then to, because we're supposed to pull those out for you as well?

That might date to the days of 35 lbs of clothing and a bustle! 

[Deleted]

Oct 6, 2014 22:41:56 GMT -5 Sum Dum Gai said:

I'm no longer cautious about saying here that I believe men are suppose to provide and protect.

Women being denied entry or passed over for promotion in favor of men in certain industries was in place so that men could provide for women. So, you want the part of that belief system that benefited you, but not the part that hurt you professionally, and that doesn't strike you as just a bit hypocritical?

No, things were like that because white men thought they were superior to everybody else, including females, and that was a way to maintain control.

My post last night should have said what I've said before...... men "should be able to" provide and protect. If he and his wife decide something different, that's fine because I've also repeatedly said that women should be able to provide for themselves. Women's responsibilities haven't changed all that much, they still keep the house clean, take care of most of the children's needs, cook, except now they have to work too. If men don't even have to work now, what do they need to do? If they do clean, cook, or look after the kids, it's often a "favor" for the wife or she just nagged him into it. I've seen women here complain about it. So why won't the men do it? If she's providing part of their income, why won't he share the responsibilities of the other things? Either they're just asses or they believe it's not their role and just would never admit it.

[Deleted]

Yeah, I should have just kept my first sentence and left the rest off. And just said again that that has nothing to do with personal relationships.

[billisonboard]

Oct 7, 2014 8:29:19 GMT -5 @pinkcshmere said:

Oct 6, 2014 22:41:56 GMT -5 Sum Dum Gai said:

Women being denied entry or passed over for promotion in favor of men in certain industries was in place so that men could provide for women. So, you want the part of that belief system that benefited you, but not the part that hurt you professionally, and that doesn't strike you as just a bit hypocritical?

No, things were like that because white men thought they were superior to everybody else, including females, and that was a way to maintain control.

My post last night should have said what I've said before...... men "should be able to" provide and protect. If he and his wife decide something different, that's fine because I've also repeatedly said that women should be able to provide for themselves. Women's responsibilities haven't changed all that much, they still keep the house clean, take care of most of the children's needs, cook, except now they have to work too. If men don't even have to work now, what do they need to do? If they do clean, cook, or look after the kids, it's often a "favor" for the wife or she just nagged him into it. I've seen women here complain about it. So why won't the men do it? If she's providing part of their income, why won't he share the responsibilities of the other things? Either they're just asses or they believe it's not their role and just would never admit it.

What would be the result on household chores and meeting the needs of offspring if you didn't specifically assign the "provide and protect" role to only one gender? If one gender is not responsible but helping out by working outside the home, doesn't it make sense for the other gender to not be responsible but helping out inside the home?

[Opti]

Oct 7, 2014 10:23:26 GMT -5 Sum Dum Gai said:

Because - women still are doing their stereotypical relationship/home stuff too. Like cooking and cleaning, wearing makeup, batting their false eyelashes, and all that.

Because you all want old fashioned guys that treat a lady like a lady. So he'll treat you like a princess in public and like staff at home.

I cook, I clean, and I've never babysat my own kids, I spend time with them. However, I don't order for my wife, pull her chair out, stand up when she enters a room, go out of my way to open doors, and when we/I get home from grocery shopping I expect her to help schlepp it all inside. If you want a guy that's not locked into traditional gender roles on home stuff, don't date guys that are locked into outdated gender roles in public. Seems pretty straightforward to me, and I do think they're related. Served with too many southern gentlemen in the military that were Emily Post level polite in public and lazy as fuck at home even if their wives worked as well.

This was a good post except for the slip up of putting "you all".

Even for those who prefer more traditional gender roles I doubt there

is universal agreement on what habits, etc. are preferred and to what degree.

I have dated non-traditional men, but those around my age were exposed

to different cultural and societal influences than you were. I personally do my

best to be gracious in situations that don't bother me much either way like

door opening and pulling out of chairs. (We have to smooth out dresses

sometimes, a non-issue for a man in a suit or even dress pants.)

What men in my life have done housework wise has varied. Much is influenced

by their upbringing.

[HoneyBBQ]

Oct 7, 2014 8:33:10 GMT -5 @tbird said:

 or tasteless or over spiced food....

??

[Deleted]

I asked a male friend to go to a concert with me. I bought the tickets and refused to tell him how much they were because I didn't want him to pay for them. He's more likely to call me up and say "hey, I'm cooking dinner, come over and get something to eat", than I am, because I don't cook much.

Another friend, I wanted to go visit another city and he gave me a budget and told me to plan the trip. Well, I wanted to stay in the downtown area and I knew that would cost more than he really wanted to pay for a hotel room even if it didn't exceed the budget he'd given me. I asked if it was ok for me to pay for the room. He doesn't like for a woman to pay anything for him. We ended up staying where I wanted to stay and when we checked in, I tried to give the lady my credit card. He told me to put it away. I ended up paying for some random meals and drinks.

Both of these men open doors for me. Neither of them will sit in my car while I pump gas. They walk me to my car when we go our seperate ways. They carry heavy things for me without me having to ask. One of them even orders my food sometimes.

They don't do the things they do because they think I'm inferior to them or not able to do them myself. They know I'll survive and thrive just fine whether they pay for outings or not. If they couldn't be bothered to walk me to my car or were willing to kick back and watch me struggle with something heavy, or droppped me off at home and just drove off without seeing to it that I got inside safely, I doubt I'd be hanging out with them much.

[Green Eyed Lady]

Two of them, Pink?  Quit hogging all the good ones!! 

[ArchietheDragon]

Oct 7, 2014 11:33:44 GMT -5 @pinkcshmere said:

Both of these men open doors for me. Neither of them will sit in my car while I pump gas. They walk me to my car when we go our seperate ways. They carry heavy things for me without me having to ask. One of them even orders my food sometimes.

My wife sometimes orders my food for me.   I don't think that is weird. 

[zibazinski]

If either of us is in the bathroom, we also order for each other, in a Restaurant setting.

[Deleted]

Oct 7, 2014 11:36:32 GMT -5 Green Eyed Lady said:

Two of them, Pink?  Quit hogging all the good ones!! 

LOL! I'm good (or bad, depending on your perspective), but not THAT good (or bad).

[Deleted]

It's amusing how often we've fussed over opening doors on threads.

[greeniis10]

Oct 7, 2014 13:02:08 GMT -5 Sum Dum Gai said:

Yes, you are.

You're fucking with me, right?  I don't know how to state the following any clearer.

More to the point, I disagree with your premise. Old fashioned values as they relate to the treatment of men and women are all intertwined with each other. I'd be willing to bet a pretty sizable amount of money that if somebody put together a study that asked random men and women questions like should a man open a door for a lady, should he pull out her chair, should he be the primary breadwinner, should a man with a wife and kids to support get promoted ahead of a woman, etc., and so forth, there would be a noticeable correlation between those who answer yes to both the earlier and later questions.

Can somebody else help me out here?  It seems pretty straightforward to me.  Like, really straightforward.  If somebody else who understands what I'm trying to say could translate it into non obtuse language I'd appreciate it, because I really don't see how to simplify it anymore.

Can't answer for all the other "randoms" responding to this survey, but for ME, my answer to the bolded is "Hell NO!".  Why should he?  Maybe the wife should get a job or they shouldn't have had children. 

I also personally don't care for the door holding, chair pullling, etc. stuff.  Seems a bit condescending.  Years ago that was acceptable.  Now, no thanks.  I can take care of myself. 

I'm also of the belief that no one should rely on anyone else for a paycheck and material support.  Male or female, we should all be able to live independently.  Then again, my views have changed drastically over the years.  Sure, it's nice to have someone else kill the spiders for me, but I've learned to just suck it up and do it myself.  I'm still deathly afraid, but I do feel just a bit more confident once I've slaughtered one successfully without me dying first.