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Post by Deleted on Oct 4, 2014 15:44:19 GMT -5
I would have calmly requested a menu with the prices AND I would have paid the bill at the end of the meal. This would have started the restaurant owner's education about how well the "Ladies Menu" is going over. If I went there a second time and received the "Ladies Menu" I would make a comment about it and it would affect the tip.
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milee
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Post by milee on Oct 4, 2014 15:53:32 GMT -5
Milee, had you gone to this restaurant before? Yes, but only a couple of times. The funny thing was that the times we've been before, it was just DH and me so we appeared more in the dating/couples situation. Those times I got a menu with prices. This time, though, we had our sons and I ended up with the Ladies Menu. No idea if it's a new practice or just depends on who is handing out menus that night.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 4, 2014 15:57:30 GMT -5
I would have calmly requested a menu with the prices AND I would have paid the bill at the end of the meal. This would have started the restaurant owner's education about how well the "Ladies Menu" is going over. If I went there a second time and received the "Ladies Menu" I would make a comment about it and it would affect the tip. I agree - except the tip part. There is no reason to assume that the servers all know who asked for what last time, and the mgmt may not give them any laterality. If I don't tip well and explain that is why you can bet no one will forget to mention it next time. The next step is that I don't go back to that restaurant. I have no objection to Guest Menus. I like it as both guest and host, I'm from the school where you don't know the price of gifts.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 4, 2014 17:37:02 GMT -5
As a host, I ask restaurants to provide my guests with non-priced menus regardless of their gender. When I entertain at a restaurant I do not want my guests' choices influenced by cost. Most good restaurants will actually prepare an abbreviated, unpriced menu including those menu options within the host's price range and dietary preferences so I can elect not to offer the costliest items while including a range of other offerings. If, as a diner, the waitstaff presented me with a "ladies" menu, they would rapidly become aware of how unladylike I can choose to be. The only thing more scathing than my response would be DH's because he loathes all forms of bias no matter how cleverly disguised. While I might be tempted to give the restaurant a second chance, he would not. No, I would not disrespect the server who was merely following his employer's policy, but the manager/owner would learn that every policy choice carries a price. If you ban children, you lose a certain market segment. If you offer "ladies" menus, you lose another. I have absolutely no problem with someone holding the door for me if they are going through right in front of me, and I will certainly hold it for the person behind me. It's only when an action of courtesy is based on an irrelevancy such as gender that it becomes offensive. Being equipped at conception with ovaries does not carry the burden of disability anymore than testes. Okay, stepping down from the soapbox now
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Post by Deleted on Oct 4, 2014 17:38:36 GMT -5
Maybe they should take the words "Ladies' Menu" off the menu, but it's not something I would get all bent out of shape or insulted about. When I go out to eat with a man, they usually place the bill in front of him. I don't think that implies that I must be be incapable of paying for my own food, it just means that traditionally, the man usually pays. If I'm paying for the meal, I just slide it over and pay.
I just don't think the menu thing would really bother me. I'd see it as a nod to tradition, not as a personal insult. I'm modern enough to be able to pay my own way and old-fashioned enough to be ok with a man paying my way when he asks me to go out with him.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 4, 2014 17:49:53 GMT -5
Actually it's sort of fun when DH and I go out with our same-sex couple friends because the waitstaff is visibly trying to figure out how not to piss somebody off. Here's two old farts and a couple young enough to be our daughters so the poor server usually just comes up and sort of helicopters over the table with the bill saying, "Hey folks, do you need anything else?" until one of us lunges at the bill.
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Malarky
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Post by Malarky on Oct 4, 2014 18:07:18 GMT -5
And I thought the "Ladies' Menu" was going to be like the "Kid's Menu", offering a reasonable amount of food instead of a family sized serving.
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teen persuasion
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Post by teen persuasion on Oct 4, 2014 18:15:04 GMT -5
""No, Shooby, it's sexist because it makes it clear that ladies shouldn't bother their pretty little heads about the prices, AKA money. That's for the men to deal with. Blech"" Really? We need to find reasons to always be bitchy and offended? Is life really that miserable? LOL, I'm really easy going about things in general, and usually can let lots of stupid things slide by giving others the benefit of the doubt. I rarely get bitchy or offended, I'm usually oblivious to things. This one is a giant, flashing neon sign - can't miss it a mile away. IF something gets my back up like this, you better believe it is a big deal. I understand the "guest menu" idea, that's fine. It is the gender specific one that is patronizing. And it is creating more work for everyone - two different menus, decide who to give which, need to explain to customers that are unfamiliar, risk offending their customers. I tend to like the simplest solution best, and here that would be all menus the same: complete with prices. I also like to make decisions based on ALL the data, rather than having someone withholding information from me. Oh, look, same conclusion: all menus the same, complete with prices. I think that the withheld information is also what triggered my response. It makes me wonder what else they are hiding. It just sets the wrong tone.
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ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ
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Post by ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ on Oct 4, 2014 18:38:59 GMT -5
It's an older custom that was used mostly in very upscale restaurants/dining rooms. You rarely see it nowadays (at least not that often in North America).
If a man could afford for he and his female dining companion to dine at such establishments, the second "Ladies" Menu was so that she would choose ordering what she wanted from the menu based on the dish, rather than on the price.
Some of the more "snooty" restaurants here might still hold onto the custom, but they're very far and few between.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 4, 2014 18:52:35 GMT -5
I think that the withheld information is also what triggered my response. It makes me wonder what else they are hiding. It just sets the wrong tone. I agree. A similar tactic us when they give you a lyrical, rapturous description of each special and omit the price. Frequently, if you're crass enough to ask, it's significantly higher than the items on the menu. I was once at a restaurant with some other actuaries at a convention where the waiter brought out a cart of after-dinner drinks. He described them all and one of our group said , "Might I ask the cost of the drinks?" It turned out that a glass of their fine scotch whisky was $40.
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resolution
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Post by resolution on Oct 4, 2014 19:02:29 GMT -5
I have received the "guest menu" at a country club while my female friend received the regular menu. It kind of backfired because I started worrying about how much this was costing her and ordered the item that looked like it would be the least expensive (some chicken dish).
DH and I eat out at lower price family restaurants and I always pay the bill. I manage the family finances in general. It is amazing how many waitresses will take the folder with my credit card that I have placed directly in front of me, and then return it to DH once they have run the card.
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milee
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Post by milee on Oct 4, 2014 19:09:38 GMT -5
And I thought the "Ladies' Menu" was going to be like the "Kid's Menu", offering a reasonable amount of food instead of a family sized serving. If that were the case, then every menu in the place should have been labeled the Ladies Menu. We tend to eat small portions (when I make steak I divide a 1 pound steak between the 4 of us...) so we all felt the portions at the restaurant were just right. But none of us had anything left on the plate which is really, really rare for us. Again, it was all very fresh and homemade, with appropriate (small) portions. I'd estimate that the pasta dish I had, a spinach tagliatelle with pancetta and basil topping was a serving of between 3/4 and 1 c. My 10 year old son's adult order of ravioli was 6 ravioli on the plate. Very good quality, though. No Olive Garden sized portions here.
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milee
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Post by milee on Oct 4, 2014 19:18:26 GMT -5
Was just discussing this with DH - who I don't think even realized I had a special menu with no prices when we were at dinner last night - and he thinks that because it's in an area that's filled with older, wealthy people that the rich old people like the idea of the Ladies Menu.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Oct 4, 2014 19:19:57 GMT -5
A 'Lady's Menu' is a quaint custom from another time and place which needs to be updated to 21st century realities. Women are more than capable of buying expensive meals for themselves and their personal or business guests.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 4, 2014 19:55:15 GMT -5
The funny (well, to be honest irritating, but again, I chose not to be irritated and to go with it) thing was that all the males at the table - DH, My 14 year old son and even my 10 year old son - got menus with prices on them. So a 10 year old gets the man menu with prices and I got the "Ladies Menu" with no prices... I think guest menus are a neat idea. But I would not appreciate it if I was the only one in a group who got a simplified gender specific menu with data missing, while children I was in charge of got regular menus like paying adults.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 4, 2014 20:34:28 GMT -5
DH and I eat out at lower price family restaurants and I always pay the bill. I manage the family finances in general. It is amazing how many waitresses will take the folder with my credit card that I have placed directly in front of me, and then return it to DH once they have run the card. Yeah, that happens to us a lot. I just grab it anyway and figure someday they'll learn.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 4, 2014 20:52:28 GMT -5
DH and I eat out at lower price family restaurants and I always pay the bill. I manage the family finances in general. It is amazing how many waitresses will take the folder with my credit card that I have placed directly in front of me, and then return it to DH once they have run the card. Yeah, that happens to us a lot. I just grab it anyway and figure someday they'll learn. That has only happened to me a couple of times. The first time my partner passed it back to me. The second time I told the waiter that he doesn't know my PIN and stared at him pointedly until he (the waiter) took the machine back from my date and handed it to me.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Oct 4, 2014 23:04:55 GMT -5
... You ... You ... your ... I have noted that while you have things to say about me, you have offered no counter to the idea that teaching young males that they are always responsible for paying in dating situations and thus teaching females that they should have no responsibility to pay is teaching both genders to view males as wallets.
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marvholly
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Post by marvholly on Oct 5, 2014 5:18:57 GMT -5
I am OLD (68) and have not seen this at all since my hs/college days of formal dances & dinners in fancy supper clubs/nightclubs. I would NOT care for being treated that way. The main person I go to dinner with these days is a male, long time family friend (since the late 1960’s) and we both live on retirement budgets and split the bill(s). In spite of that he is gentleman enough to ALWAYS come to my door, open car doors & all other doors.
The other person I sometimes go out with is also a long time family friend (since my grade school years), female, also retired and living on a budget. We usually take turns paying.
BUT with both we tend to go to mid-priced, family owned and/or ethnic places (frequently w/a Groupon).
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tloonya
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Post by tloonya on Oct 5, 2014 7:41:01 GMT -5
Are you all serious? Ladies menu given to the lady so she wouldn't worry about price when gentleman treats her to whatever she wants. That is it. You can always request regular menu. Or read yor man's one.
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olderburgher
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Post by olderburgher on Oct 5, 2014 8:48:23 GMT -5
"I am teaching my sons to be "sexist" to hold doors open for women, to pay for the dates and so forth."
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Post by Deleted on Oct 5, 2014 9:16:28 GMT -5
"Yeah, it's "sexist", who cares? I am teaching my sons to be "sexist" to hold doors open for women, to pay for the dates and so forth. Sheesh."
Holding the doors or paying for dates is not the same assuming the female is automatically the one that shouldn't worry about costs. I see it no different than when men didn't want women engineers. It is an insult to women's capability. If i was presented with a "ladies menu" on a date, that would make me extremely uncomfortable because then it would be automatically assumed i wouldnt be paying for anything, which is no longer ok IMO. We scream we want to be equal but turn around and expect men to pay for everything.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Oct 5, 2014 9:18:28 GMT -5
Unless the woman picked THAT restaurant on purpose, I don't see that at all.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 5, 2014 9:18:28 GMT -5
"Ladies menu given to the lady so she wouldn't worry about price when gentleman treats her to whatever she wants. "
I don't like that the choice is taken away from both the woman and the man. A man should be able to choose to treat a woman and the woman should have the choice to accept.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Oct 5, 2014 9:44:43 GMT -5
There are still some women and some men who like it that way. It's not the hill I choose to die on. I'd think it was funny if it happened to me and DF but we go back a long way so it's no big deal. If I were young and on a date for the first time or the first few times, I'd probably think it was weird. But most young people have no clue that its old fashioned or means anything at all.
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8 Bit WWBG
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Post by 8 Bit WWBG on Oct 5, 2014 10:42:18 GMT -5
...:::"I have noted that while you have things to say about me, you have offered no counter to the idea that teaching young males that they are always responsible for paying in dating situations and thus teaching females that they should have no responsibility to pay is teaching both genders to view males as wallets.":::...
I'll take a stab. Its not enough for the parents to preach the lesson, the lesson itself has to match the reality of the environment. If, while attempting to apply the advice, every girl gets huffy and turns him down for a second date, eventually he's going to question just how solid the advice really is. Yeah yeah, a good partner won't take advantage of you, chin up, you'll find her, eat your vegetables... Not too comforting.
We all need to be teaching our children to be independent and respect others. There are plenty of gorgeous dudes out there who off girl after girl, so its a lesson everyone needs to know.
When I was dating (and its probably still true) the prevailing attitude among men is that its just plain safer to pay on the first date. The ones whom that will offend are far fewer than the ones who get offended at not being paid for. Sure, most offer to pay, and a reasonable percentage will follow through without deducting points. Sometimes she'll leave the tip, or she'll pay for something later in the date (an after dinner drink, an activity...).
I'm assuming that both sides are looking for clues as to how things could progress (and/or whether to try). People want to know they aren't signing up to be bled dry, or that gifts don't come with strings. Some people want to demonstrate their ability to do something. Who knows.
Of course, I think doing the "fancy dinner" as the first date is stupid -- and if I was dating again, I would save that for at least date 3 or 4. Though it depends on whether you've just met or already knew each other; I think the first few dates should be fun activities you can interact with. Once you know each other better, that dinner will probably be much more fun and less like a stiff job interview!
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8 Bit WWBG
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Post by 8 Bit WWBG on Oct 5, 2014 10:46:44 GMT -5
...:::"If the guy is taking the woman out and treating - even if he hasn't said anything - it may not mean that price is of no object.":::...
Another thought about the era the "ladies menu" hails from. Once upon a time, most probably didn't set foot in a restaurant like that UNLESS it was a special occasion and funds were ample? So maybe price (in a way) was no object?
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Oct 5, 2014 12:30:13 GMT -5
...:::"I have noted that while you have things to say about me, you have offered no counter to the idea that teaching young males that they are always responsible for paying in dating situations and thus teaching females that they should have no responsibility to pay is teaching both genders to view males as wallets.":::... I'll take a stab. Its not enough for the parents to preach the lesson, the lesson itself has to match the reality of the environment. If, while attempting to apply the advice, every girl gets huffy and turns him down for a second date, eventually he's going to question just how solid the advice really is. Yeah yeah, a good partner won't take advantage of you, chin up, you'll find her, eat your vegetables... Not too comforting. We all need to be teaching our children to be independent and respect others. There are plenty of gorgeous dudes out there who off girl after girl, so its a lesson everyone needs to know. When I was dating (and its probably still true) the prevailing attitude among men is that its just plain safer to pay on the first date. The ones whom that will offend are far fewer than the ones who get offended at not being paid for. Sure, most offer to pay, and a reasonable percentage will follow through without deducting points. Sometimes she'll leave the tip, or she'll pay for something later in the date (an after dinner drink, an activity...). I'm assuming that both sides are looking for clues as to how things could progress (and/or whether to try). People want to know they aren't signing up to be bled dry, or that gifts don't come with strings. Some people want to demonstrate their ability to do something. Who knows. Of course, I think doing the "fancy dinner" as the first date is stupid -- and if I was dating again, I would save that for at least date 3 or 4. Though it depends on whether you've just met or already knew each other; I think the first few dates should be fun activities you can interact with. Once you know each other better, that dinner will probably be much more fun and less like a stiff job interview! Generally speaking I concur with most of what you say. A couple of things: I was responding to the statement "I am teaching my sons ... to pay for the dates ...". There was no qualification of the paying as to first or subsequent, fun or formal, etc. When dating if I asked a person out on a date, I was certainly prepared to pay for the date. If an offer to help came, I accepted it. If I were asked out and accepted, I would go prepared and offered to help with paying but did not have a problem with being told, "I asked you out, I will get it." My wife and I frequently pay based on who suggested going out.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Oct 5, 2014 12:56:56 GMT -5
... A guest menu is fine to have - but should only be used if a host requests it specifically. Otherwise - the long list of assumption that go into handing this type of menu to anyone is really inappropriate, imo. A "guest" menu would be appropriate in a setting in which meals are available to members but members are allowed to invite guests to dine with them at the member's expense. It is presumed that the wait staff is knowledgeable as to who are members of such an establishment.
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❤ mollymouser ❤
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Post by ❤ mollymouser ❤ on Oct 5, 2014 12:56:57 GMT -5
I've only seen this once before and that was years ago. How often have you encountered this? How do you feel about it? I guess I've led a sheltered life, but I've never encountered a restaurant menu without prices. I suppose if I received one, I'd probably just ask the weight for a menu with prices. Of course, these days, I'm usually traumatized enough by restaurants including calories on their menus! (grin)
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