tallguy
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Post by tallguy on Oct 5, 2014 13:09:05 GMT -5
I don't recall it being mentioned, but this also ties in to another thing that should be consigned to yesteryear, but unfortunately is not. I would bet there is still a sizable contingent (of both genders) who are still of the belief (or could be persuaded) that, "He spent a lot of money on her, so she "owes" him something in return." Better men, and stronger, more confident women, are going to be immune from such thinking, but really, how many on both sides really qualify as such? I know I don't have that much faith in the general public.
I believe that boys should be raised to be gentlemen, and girls should be socialized to be equal. Those two things may occasionally conflict, but not in any way that should cause a problem for two thinking (and thoughtful) individuals.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Oct 5, 2014 13:24:23 GMT -5
... boys should be raised to be gentlemen, and girls should be socialized to be equal. ... Do we have consensus on what it means to be a "gentlemen"? And what exactly is the female being equal to? Me thinks the is in the details in this statement.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Oct 5, 2014 13:37:18 GMT -5
...:::"If the guy is taking the woman out and treating - even if he hasn't said anything - it may not mean that price is of no object.":::... Another thought about the era the "ladies menu" hails from. Once upon a time, most probably didn't set foot in a restaurant like that UNLESS it was a special occasion and funds were ample? So maybe price (in a way) was no object? In my experience, restaurants that offer menus without prices are restaurants for which price better NOT be an object. You know that when you walk in. If you're worried about your wallet, the best thing to do is turn around and walk right back out! The one I remember in California (only one I've ever seen in the States) left no doubt. When all the upholstery is tufted red velvet, a full complement of sterling silver, fine crystal, and fine china graces every table, tables are discreetly placed to allow utmost privacy, and there are more wait staff (in full regalia) than customers, you know. You just know. Once you're seated and you look around and see faces you've seen before - but not in your neighborhood - you're sure!
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Oct 5, 2014 13:37:17 GMT -5
I'd like a menu that tells you the carbs. Poor DF has to take insulin and needs to count and inject accordingly. Servers/cooks/restaurants are clueless. We have books and apps but it'd be so much easier if the menu just stated it-accurately.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Oct 5, 2014 13:38:38 GMT -5
...:::"If the guy is taking the woman out and treating - even if he hasn't said anything - it may not mean that price is of no object.":::... Another thought about the era the "ladies menu" hails from. Once upon a time, most probably didn't set foot in a restaurant like that UNLESS it was a special occasion and funds were ample? So maybe price (in a way) was no object? In my experience, restaurants that offer menus without prices are restaurants for which price better NOT be an object. You know that when you walk in. If you're worried about your wallet, the best thing to do is turn around and walk right back out! The one I remember in California (only one I've ever seen in the States) left no doubt. When all the upholstery is tufted red velvet, a full complement of sterling silver, fine crystal, and fine china graces every table, tables are discreetly placed to allow utmost privacy, and there are more wait staff (in full regalia) than customers, you know. You just know. Once you're seated and you look around and see faces you've seen before - but not in your neighborhood - you're sure! It's one of those old sayings, " If you have to ask, you can't afford it."
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Oct 5, 2014 13:49:13 GMT -5
In my experience, restaurants that offer menus without prices are restaurants for which price better NOT be an object. You know that when you walk in. If you're worried about your wallet, the best thing to do is turn around and walk right back out! The one I remember in California (only one I've ever seen in the States) left no doubt. When all the upholstery is tufted red velvet, a full complement of sterling silver, fine crystal, and fine china graces every table, tables are discreetly placed to allow utmost privacy, and there are more wait staff (in full regalia) than customers, you know. You just know. Once you're seated and you look around and see faces you've seen before - but not in your neighborhood - you're sure! It's one of those old sayings, " If you have to ask, you can't afford it." Precisely! The gentleman I was with chose the restaurant. I figure that meant he was well aware of the prices at said restaurant. Prior to that time, I'd heard of it but had certainly never darkened the door!
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Oct 5, 2014 14:06:31 GMT -5
...:::"If the guy is taking the woman out and treating - even if he hasn't said anything - it may not mean that price is of no object.":::... Another thought about the era the "ladies menu" hails from. Once upon a time, most probably didn't set foot in a restaurant like that UNLESS it was a special occasion and funds were ample? So maybe price (in a way) was no object? In my experience, restaurants that offer menus without prices are restaurants for which price better NOT be an object. You know that when you walk in. If you're worried about your wallet, the best thing to do is turn around and walk right back out! The one I remember in California (only one I've ever seen in the States) left no doubt. When all the upholstery is tufted red velvet, a full complement of sterling silver, fine crystal, and fine china graces every table, tables are discreetly placed to allow utmost privacy, and there are more wait staff (in full regalia) than customers, you know. You just know. Once you're seated and you look around and see faces you've seen before - but not in your neighborhood - you're sure! The one that I experienced personally was when I was a youngster stationed o Guam. A typhoon had wiped out power lines. It took a month for us to get power at our apartment. My wife, daughter and I ate out most nights. We were boredom visiting places that we did not normally frequent.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 5, 2014 15:16:39 GMT -5
It's one of those old sayings, " If you have to ask, you can't afford it."Precisely! The gentleman I was with chose the restaurant. I figure that meant he was well aware of the prices at said restaurant. Prior to that time, I'd heard of it but had certainly never darkened the door! So... why not give everyone in a family the same menu if they can indeed afford the restaurant? It was a family outing. 3/4 in the group, including the 10 year old boy in elementary school could see all the prices and could make comments or decisions based on prices if they felt like it. The mom was given a simpler, incomplete menu with pricing data missing, based on gender alone. I'm just not sure how that works. A mom has far greater paying potential/savvy than a 10 year old. She's also a clear guardian of the kids, and is generally expected to advise in various matters. Why give young kids paying adult menus only because of gender, but not their mom? If price really doesn't matter, why leave off data for only the mom, but not any of the males including their 10 year old son?
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Oct 5, 2014 15:55:25 GMT -5
Precisely! The gentleman I was with chose the restaurant. I figure that meant he was well aware of the prices at said restaurant. Prior to that time, I'd heard of it but had certainly never darkened the door! So... why not give everyone in a family the same menu if they can indeed afford the restaurant? It was a family outing. 3/4 in the group, including the 10 year old boy in elementary school could see all the prices and could make comments or decisions based on prices if they felt like it. The mom was given a simpler, incomplete menu with pricing data missing, based on gender alone. I'm just not sure how that works. A mom has far greater paying potential/savvy than a 10 year old. She's also a clear guardian of the kids, and is generally expected to advise in various matters. Why give young kids paying adult menus only because of gender, but not their mom? If price really doesn't matter, why leave off data for only the mom, but not any of the males including their 10 year old son? Ask those who do it. Don't ask me. It's an old-fashioned practice that's very uncommon today; especially, in North America. You might see more of it in a place like Montreal. I don't know, but I know I can't answer your question.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Oct 5, 2014 16:09:43 GMT -5
Precisely! The gentleman I was with chose the restaurant. I figure that meant he was well aware of the prices at said restaurant. Prior to that time, I'd heard of it but had certainly never darkened the door! So... why not give everyone in a family the same menu if they can indeed afford the restaurant? It was a family outing. 3/4 in the group, including the 10 year old boy in elementary school could see all the prices and could make comments or decisions based on prices if they felt like it.The mom was given a simpler, incomplete menu with pricing data missing, based on gender alone.I'm just not sure how that works. A mom has far greater paying potential/savvy than a 10 year old. She's also a clear guardian of the kids, and is generally expected to advise in various matters. Why give young kids paying adult menus only because of gender, but not their mom? If price really doesn't matter, why leave off data for only the mom, but not any of the males including their 10 year old son? It is straight forward simple. Female - no need for her to be involved at all in something that is of male concern only. If there are items on the menu that the man does not wish for her to have based on price, he can veto that choice if she attempts to make it. As far as her being expected to advise - a male? - no. The father can advise if necessary and again veto a child's choice if he deems it not appropriate. You may consider it negatively, but it is what it is.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 5, 2014 17:16:09 GMT -5
I don't recall it being mentioned, but this also ties in to another thing that should be consigned to yesteryear, but unfortunately is not. I would bet there is still a sizable contingent (of both genders) who are still of the belief (or could be persuaded) that, "He spent a lot of money on her, so she "owes" him something in return." Better men, and stronger, more confident women, are going to be immune from such thinking, but really, how many on both sides really qualify as such? I know I don't have that much faith in the general public.
I believe that boys should be raised to be gentlemen, and girls should be socialized to be equal. Those two things may occasionally conflict, but not in any way that should cause a problem for two thinking (and thoughtful) individuals. I raised my son to be courteous and respectful of ladies, my idea of a gentleman. I also taught him that he wouldn't be ready to get married and start a family until/unless he was prepared to be a good provider. I guess that was sexist of me, but that's how I feel. I wouldn't want my son sitting around on his butt letting a woman take care of him. I raised my daughter to behave like a lady and respect herself. I also taught her (or tried to, anyway) to always be able to take care of herself and her responsibilities regardless of her relationship status. I don't want my daughter to NEED a man to provide for her. I believe men should be providers, but women should have their own stuff going on and not need a man to provide for them. How's that for a contradiction? What other people choose to do is their business. Heck, what my children end up doing in their relationships is their business. No amount of flaming will change my sexist little mind.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Oct 5, 2014 17:33:15 GMT -5
I don't recall it being mentioned, but this also ties in to another thing that should be consigned to yesteryear, but unfortunately is not. I would bet there is still a sizable contingent (of both genders) who are still of the belief (or could be persuaded) that, "He spent a lot of money on her, so she "owes" him something in return." Better men, and stronger, more confident women, are going to be immune from such thinking, but really, how many on both sides really qualify as such? I know I don't have that much faith in the general public.
I believe that boys should be raised to be gentlemen, and girls should be socialized to be equal. Those two things may occasionally conflict, but not in any way that should cause a problem for two thinking (and thoughtful) individuals. I raised my son to be courteous and respectful of ladies, my idea of a gentleman. I also taught him that he wouldn't be ready to get married and start a family until/unless he was prepared to be a good provider. I guess that was sexist of me, but that's how I feel. I wouldn't want my son sitting around on his butt letting a woman take care of him. How about a caring nurturing stay at home father?I raised my daughter to behave like a lady and respect herself. I also taught her (or tried to, anyway) to always be able to take care of herself and her responsibilities regardless of her relationship status. I don't want my daughter to NEED a man to provide for her. I think that all human beings should be encouraged to be independently self-supporting.I believe men should be providers, but women should have their own stuff going on and not need a man to provide for them. How's that for a contradiction? I think it is a contradiction that is creating a difficult situation for young males today. And taking a look at the statistical reality of young male adults, they seem to not be doing well with it.What other people choose to do is their business. Heck, what my children end up doing in their relationships is their business. No amount of flaming will change my sexist little mind. I certainly won't flame a sexist who is so ready to admit that they are a sexist. I reserve that for those who attempt to fool themselves.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 5, 2014 18:02:30 GMT -5
If my son decides to be a nurturing stay at home father and it's ok with his spouse, that's their business. But I taught him that men should make money. I taught them what I taught them, how they live their adult lives is on them. I think it is a contradiction that is creating a difficult situation for young males today. And taking a look at the statistical reality of young male adults, they seem to not be doing well with it.
I can't seem to stop the bolding. But I'm not sure exactly what you mean, so I won't comment on that.
ETA: At the end of the day, I taught both of them to be independently self-supporting as you mentioned. What's wrong with that?
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Green Eyed Lady
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Post by Green Eyed Lady on Oct 5, 2014 18:32:12 GMT -5
My father expected the same, Pink Cashmere. He expected me to behave like a lady at all times (I succeed maybe 70% of the time). This included manners, general behavior, and appearance. Yes. HIS version of what constituted behaving like a lady (which doesn't vary from mine all that much). He also demanded I be kind, polite and respectful. In addition, he expected me to study and work hard so that if I chose to be married, that was great...but I didn't HAVE to be married to live comfortably. It worked. I found myself single even though that wasn't the plan and I'm just fine.
I'm not sure we shouldn't expect the same from both sexes. Well....substitute "gentleman" for "lady" in the above!
I do understand what bill was saying about the "contradiction" for young men. I've seen them visibly struggle with whether or not to open a door for a lady - not knowing what her reaction would be. That's just sad, IMO.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Oct 5, 2014 18:45:38 GMT -5
I can say this: Never had I been treated with such deference as I was at Chez Cary (the restaurant of which I've spoken). I was in my early twenties, and not at all worldly. Just a little Okie girl trying to get a handle on life. The gentlemen who took me to the restaurant was an older man (probably in his 50s or 60s) who was a friend of one of my father's associates. I'd met he and his wife before and we attended a convention together in downtown LA. Both of us lived in Orange County. The convention ended right in the middle of rush hour (of course!) so he suggested we wait until the rush was over and he'd take me to dinner. I'm sure he got quite a kick out of my lack of sophistication. Not only was the restaurant super-plush, and not only were there faces I knew from the movies, but a man dressed in a tux brought out a footstool (again, plush red velvet), knelt on the floor and gently removed my shoes in order to place my freakin' feets on the footstool! I kid you not! I know my eyes must have been as big as saucers! There were waiters for the food, waiters for the water, waiters for the wine, and waiters for the waiters. Sadly, the gentleman in question passed away very shortly after that amazing (for me) experience. Fortunately, he never knew I up-chucked my shoe soles as soon as I got into the house. Too much rich food and drink for the little Okie gal. Thanks be I was able to maintain until I got home. I'll always remember him, and I'll always remember that restaurant. While it might not be today's cup o' tea, it was an experience I don't regret and it did prepare me for things I'd encounter later in life as my late DH and I traveled the world. While today it might seem foolish - even wrong - it didn't seem that way to me then. It was more like Cinderella suddenly becoming something other than a scullery maid. Now, it's a memory for my memory book and I sure don't regret it!
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tallguy
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Post by tallguy on Oct 5, 2014 18:48:14 GMT -5
I never struggle with it. Of course I'm not that young either. If I am with someone new and she opens her own car door when I am on that side with her, I'll smile and light-heartedly say something like, "There are so few opportunities to be a gentleman any more. I hope you won't deprive me of one." I've never had anyone respond negatively, and if one ever does, I know it's not someone I would do well with anyway.
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Green Eyed Lady
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Post by Green Eyed Lady on Oct 5, 2014 19:42:58 GMT -5
I never struggle with it. Of course I'm not that young either. If I am with someone new and she opens her own car door when I am on that side with her, I'll smile and light-heartedly say something like, "There are so few opportunities to be a gentleman any more. I hope you won't deprive me of one." I've never had anyone respond negatively, and if one ever does, I know it's not someone I would do well with anyway.
Excellent point. I'd not do well with a man so unsure of himself that he hesitated to extend general courtesies. I don't suppose he would like me much either!
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quince
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Post by quince on Oct 5, 2014 20:02:06 GMT -5
I'm not sure I'd have any patience for someone who couldn't decide whether or not to hold a door open for another person. I've had guys get awkward with me when I hold the door open for them, it doesn't stop me from holding the door open when people are behind me. I think when there it makes sense for there to be issues is when someone practically knocks someone over to get to the door to open it for them, or when someone stands in front of a closed door and waits for someone to open it for them. Both of those...blah. The rest of it? People, be nice to each other and accept when people are nice to you. If someone wants to pay? Fine. If everyone and the waitstaff make assumptions that someone won't be paying because they look like a female? Not fine. When my husband and I were dating, he once paid at a restaurant while I was getting out my wallet by stating that there was a rule, of course, that whoever managed to grab the bill first had the privilege of paying. Up until we combined finances, there was a race to grab the bill every time we ate out.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Oct 5, 2014 20:15:40 GMT -5
Fuck. Open the door for anyone.
How about: You aren't a real man unless you are the provider for a person who has been taught to not need nor necessarily want to be provided for. You are not being a real man if you are not able to provide due to economic conditions beyond your control. You aren't a real man if you have to be provided for by the person that is supposed to be provided for by you.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Oct 5, 2014 21:14:59 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Oct 6, 2014 5:42:56 GMT -5
I never struggle with it. Of course I'm not that young either. If I am with someone new and she opens her own car door when I am on that side with her, I'll smile and light-heartedly say something like, "There are so few opportunities to be a gentleman any more. I hope you won't deprive me of one." I've never had anyone respond negatively, and if one ever does, I know it's not someone I would do well with anyway.
so if she gets to the car first she should just stand there waiting for you to come open her door? I think being a gentleman includes not pointing out what you consider a faux pas in the dating world.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 6, 2014 8:20:17 GMT -5
Fuck. Open the door for anyone. How about: You aren't a real man unless you are the provider for a person who has been taught to not need nor necessarily want to be provided for. You are not being a real man if you are not able to provide due to economic conditions beyond your control. You aren't a real man if you have to be provided for by the person that is supposed to be provided for by you.You aren't a real man if you're physically and mentally healthy and choose to be a lazy bum while your woman works all day to pay the bills, then comes home to take care of the house and cook. You can still be a real man if you can provide for woman but she's too independant to want you to. You can be a real man if your woman makes more money than you do. You can be a real man if you are doing the best you can even when economic conditions suck. You can be a real man if shit happens like job loss or illness and your spouse has to step up. These kinds of subjects seem to be touchy for you. Like a lot of subjects, how we view them is often shaped by our backgrounds and personal experiences.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Oct 6, 2014 9:00:26 GMT -5
... These kinds of subjects seem to be touchy for you. Like a lot of subjects, how we view them is often shaped by our backgrounds and personal experiences. Agreed. A piece of that background and experience for me is having been subjected to male socialization. I have noticed that some females tend to be touchy when it comes to female socialization.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Oct 6, 2014 9:16:50 GMT -5
I can see the use for a "guest menu" when someone is hosting one or more people and doesn't want them to worry about prices. Like say the patriarch or matriarch of a family is hosting a family reunion. But I think such menus should only be given out when the host specifically requests it.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Oct 6, 2014 9:26:49 GMT -5
I don't really agree necessarily with the idea that the "man always pays in a dating situation."
As a general rule, I believe "the one who asks pays." In practice, it's the man that usually asks first. I've never had a woman ask me out on a date, so I usually pay for the first one. I don't mind. As WWBG said, usually a "fancy dinner date" is not my choice first date. I usually prefer something a bit more low key, ideally an activity. If I do go with a "food date" it's usually either lunch of coffee. 99% of the first dates I've gone on are busts, so I don't feel like shelling out a lot of money for them.
However, I think once you get past the initial dating phase, you should settle into a structure you're comfortable with. Personally, I'd be put off if we're past date three and she never even offered to pay for anything, or at least reciprocated in some other way, like say cooking a nice dinner for me. I'd fully expect any gainfully employed date to start contributing some after the first few dates. How much and how often to be determined based on the specific circumstances like what we're doing, how much she makes relative to me, and what her opinions and desires are.
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tallguy
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Post by tallguy on Oct 6, 2014 9:29:31 GMT -5
I never struggle with it. Of course I'm not that young either. If I am with someone new and she opens her own car door when I am on that side with her, I'll smile and light-heartedly say something like, "There are so few opportunities to be a gentleman any more. I hope you won't deprive me of one." I've never had anyone respond negatively, and if one ever does, I know it's not someone I would do well with anyway.
so if she gets to the car first she should just stand there waiting for you to come open her door? I think being a gentleman includes not pointing out what you consider a faux pas in the dating world.
No, she doesn't get there first. That's the point. And if it happens that I am not on that side right at the time I will still be there to close the door for her. Fortunately, I've never felt the need to be too much of a gentleman online, so I can safely point out reading comprehension errors as they arise.
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Green Eyed Lady
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Post by Green Eyed Lady on Oct 6, 2014 9:31:09 GMT -5
... These kinds of subjects seem to be touchy for you. Like a lot of subjects, how we view them is often shaped by our backgrounds and personal experiences. Agreed. A piece of that background and experience for me is having been subjected to male socialization. I have noticed that some females tend to be touchy when it comes to female socialization. Interesting. Can you provide some examples? I'm "touchy" about several things even when I don't want to be, but I'm not sure they are specific to "female socialization". I'm interested in knowing what is.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 6, 2014 9:35:18 GMT -5
so if she gets to the car first she should just stand there waiting for you to come open her door? I think being a gentleman includes not pointing out what you consider a faux pas in the dating world.
No, she doesn't get there first. That's the point. And if it happens that I am not on that side right at the time I will still be there to close the door for her. Fortunately, I've never felt the need to be too much of a gentleman online, so I can safely point out reading comprehension errors as they arise.
how old are you? if we get to the car door at the same time and I open it on my own and then am chastised for it, I would wonder what other gender specific ideas you have.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Oct 6, 2014 10:35:15 GMT -5
I do understand what bill was saying about the "contradiction" for young men. I've seen them visibly struggle with whether or not to open a door for a lady - not knowing what her reaction would be. That's just sad, IMO. I gave up on worrying about things like that some time ago. I figure if someone rejects me for something so trivial as opening the door (or not) then that's not the kind of person I'd want to be with.
If someone is willing to get offended over door opening, I'd be worried about what else they're going to get offended over.
So I just do what seems appropriate, given the situation.
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HoneyBBQ
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Post by HoneyBBQ on Oct 6, 2014 10:42:11 GMT -5
""No, Shooby, it's sexist because it makes it clear that ladies shouldn't bother their pretty little heads about the prices, AKA money. That's for the men to deal with. Blech"" Really? We need to find reasons to always be bitchy and offended? Is life really that miserable?
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