Opti
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Post by Opti on Aug 20, 2014 18:12:24 GMT -5
Who really dies of the illness of homosexuality or narcissim?
I missed this before but did you really mean to call homosexuality an illness? Yes. But not because I believe it.
It was to make the point that at one time homosexuality was believed to be a mental illness. And that just because it was believed to be true in and of itself did not make it true.
Clear, unclear? I am too tired to write concisely.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Aug 20, 2014 18:13:40 GMT -5
It does kind of make sense. It's a pattern of behavior outside of societal norms, that can have adverse effects on the person life. It's got a lot in common with other mental illnesses. The only difference is if you have a kid with autism and you explain how it's making their life incredibly hard, how people judge them, all the struggles, and you ask people to donate money to find a cure, nobody has a problem with it. If you have a kid that's gay and you explain how it's making their life incredibly hard, how people judge them, all the struggles, and you ask people to donate money to find a cure, you're a total fucking asshole and society rips you apart.
Honestly, what's the difference between the two? They're both conditions you're either born with or not. They cause you to act in ways that most of society doesn't find acceptable. They can adversely effect your ability to get an education, find employment, find a spouse, etc. Your brain is wired differently than what society defines as normal. Why do we devote tons of research time and money to finding a cure for one, but you can't even insinuate that the other should be cured without getting tarred and feathered?
Doesn't really make much sense.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 20, 2014 18:16:29 GMT -5
Exactly, Lonewolf. Some nastiness can be understandable if you really think about it. Doesn't make it acceptable, but it can make it easier to understand. On the other hand, I get very impatient with people who use past sucky experiences to justify their assholiness. Some things are impossible to simply "get over" and they are life-changing and horrific, but they are no justification for causing pain to others. LOL! I like that, "Assholiness."
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Aug 20, 2014 18:19:25 GMT -5
Clear, unclear? I am too tired to write concisely.
Clear. Thanks for explaining.
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Aug 20, 2014 18:22:16 GMT -5
Apologies to Rae and Girmomma(sorry for the likely mis-spelling too. ).
I tend to read things literally as I don't remember how people intend things nor the unwritten stuff some posters remember. I can't always tell when Shaun is being straight up or sarcastic, so I can't always tell when what appears to be a general absolutist statement really is a specific one possible case statement.
Should you ever want to make you post Optimist safe or Optimist understandable, you can always use these phrases to cut and paste into your post.
****WARNING! THIS STATEMENT IS NOT LITERAL***** ****YO OPTIMIST THIS IS JUST A SINGLE EXAMPLE, OK?****
or whatever works.
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Aug 20, 2014 18:25:22 GMT -5
Firebird, in case you are interested:
In 1973 homosexuality per se was removed from the DSM-II classification of mental disorders and replaced by the category Sexual Orientation Disturbance. This represented a compromise between the view that preferential homosexuality is invariably a mental disorder and the view that it is merely a normal sexual variant. While the 1973 DSM-II controversy was highly public, more recently a related but less public controversy involved what became the DSM-III category of Ego-dystonic Homosexuality. The author presents the DSM-III controversy and a reformulation of the issues involved in the diagnostic status of homosexuality. He argues that what is at issue is a value judgment about heterosexuality, rather than a factual dispute about homosexuality.
ajp.psychiatryonline.org/article.aspx?articleID=158812
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Aug 20, 2014 18:38:43 GMT -5
It does kind of make sense. It's a pattern of behavior outside of societal norms, that can have adverse effects on the person life. It's got a lot in common with other mental illnesses. The only difference is if you have a kid with autism and you explain how it's making their life incredibly hard, how people judge them, all the struggles, and you ask people to donate money to find a cure, nobody has a problem with it. If you have a kid that's gay and you explain how it's making their life incredibly hard, how people judge them, all the struggles, and you ask people to donate money to find a cure, you're a total fucking asshole and society rips you apart. Honestly, what's the difference between the two? They're both conditions you're either born with or not. They cause you to act in ways that most of society doesn't find acceptable. They can adversely effect your ability to get an education, find employment, find a spouse, etc. Your brain is wired differently than what society defines as normal. Why do we devote tons of research time and money to finding a cure for one, but you can't even insinuate that the other should be cured without getting tarred and feathered? Doesn't really make much sense. Did people not know it was once listed as a mental illness in the DSM?
I remember many concepts. I forget specifics and don't always have an idea who knows what so, sorry if people thought I was saying something awful about homosexuality. I was trying to point out the stupidity of putting homosexuality in the DSM in the first place and that over time it finally got fixed. I'm sure there were other people besides myself then that knew it should have never been in there in the first place.
That's why I thought it was such a great example. Optimist fail.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Aug 20, 2014 18:46:33 GMT -5
I don't know about other people, but I didn't know for sure. I'm not surprised though. I can also see the reasoning behind it a little bit. Essentially everyone is wired slightly differently. The DSM is a big collection of recurring miswiring patterns, if you will, that we classify as so far outside the norm, or so detrimental to the people so wired, that they're an illness that we should try to fix. What makes it in and what doesn't is essentially pretty arbitrary.
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chen35
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Post by chen35 on Aug 20, 2014 19:09:09 GMT -5
Ha, I know what an RBI is, just wasn't connecting it. Apparently I'm more tired than I thought!
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Aug 20, 2014 19:36:45 GMT -5
I don't know about other people, but I didn't know for sure. I'm not surprised though. I can also see the reasoning behind it a little bit. Essentially everyone is wired slightly differently. The DSM is a big collection of recurring miswiring patterns, if you will, that we classify as so far outside the norm, or so detrimental to the people so wired, that they're an illness that we should try to fix. What makes it in and what doesn't is essentially pretty arbitrary. Yes, the DSM becomes a collection of what is perceived to be recurring miswiring patterns especially those considered to be out of the norm and considered detrimental or undesireable to society.
I am a huge fan of this guy- en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Szasz
From that link: Szasz consistently paid attention to the power of language in the establishment and maintenance of the social order, both in small interpersonal as well as wider socio-political spheres:
The struggle for definition is veritably the struggle for life itself. In the typical Western two men fight desperately for the possession of a gun that has been thrown to the ground: whoever reaches the weapon first shoots and lives; his adversary is shot and dies. In ordinary life, the struggle is not for guns but for words; whoever first defines the situation is the victor; his adversary, the victim. For example, in the family, husband and wife, mother and child do not get along; who defines whom as troublesome or mentally sick?...[the one] who first seizes the word imposes reality on the other; [the one] who defines thus dominates and lives; and [the one] who is defined is subjugated and may be killed.[12]
To Szasz, disease can only mean something people "have," while behavior is what people "do". Diseases are "malfunctions of the human body, of the heart, the liver, the kidney, the brain" while "no behavior or misbehavior is a disease or can be a disease. That's not what diseases are." Szasz cited drapetomania as an example of a behavior that many in society did not approve of, being labeled and widely cited as a disease. Likewise, women who did not bend to a man's will were said to have hysteria.[13] He thought that psychiatry actively obscures the difference between behavior and disease,
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Aug 20, 2014 20:58:04 GMT -5
I do think my understanding of the overall area is ahead of where it is and is where someday we will be. I know there is a better way. I think I could turn the mental health field on its ear if I were so inclined.
Well, you've got some time on your hands, why not go for it? It's an area that needs some heroes, so if you're that person, you can be a superstar. Because it will take a shit ton of time, I'm going to get slammed like I do here, and it may not make enough difference in people's lives I want to make better.
I've written and rewritten a book on this topic in my head and in various piece parts since the 1990s. I don't expect to be a superstar. I'm more concerned I'll be like the guy who really pushed the idea of the earth revolving around the sun. I think he barely escaped being killed for heresy.
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Lizard Queen
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Post by Lizard Queen on Aug 20, 2014 21:16:12 GMT -5
Thinking back to my psychology capstone class, I would say that the people in the field are very aware of the limitations/subjectivity/judgment of the DSM and the whole field of Psychology in general. My entire capstone examined that. There is also much disagreement in how disorders are labeled, grouped and defined. (For example, I do not agree with Aspergers being folded into the autism spectrum in the latest version of the DSM, but what the hell do I know? I've never been in the trenches.) The DSM does seem very subjective and arbitrary. Hopefully, the newer versions are based more upon research than opinion, but I haven't followed the progression, so I couldn't say.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Aug 20, 2014 23:26:55 GMT -5
I think it varies.
I think for many, they are miserable for whatever reasons and want others to share in their misery. Or otherwise it makes them feel better about themselves to have some sort of power over others.
Others, I think, withdraw into themselves and looks down on others, and somehow that justifies their behavior. It could be they look down on specific groups, like a race, or others at lower socioeconomic status or different family status ect, and think they deserve it. Some people just like to think they're better than everyone else.
For others, I think there's just a lack of empathy, inability to put yourself in someone else's position. And for still others, I think it's just being oblivious to the people around you and what's going on. I'm always shocked at the basic lack of situational awareness a lot of people have.
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truthbound
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Post by truthbound on Aug 22, 2014 4:28:28 GMT -5
Yes there is a good answer. Because the internets allow the folks who live in their grandmas' basements a way to anonymously say things that would get their their tickets punched in real life. Yup. Grandma's calling you, you should go see what she wants. Speaking of why people on the interents are ugly to each other. Thank you for assuming I had a grandmother.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2014 8:38:03 GMT -5
Yup. Grandma's calling you, you should go see what she wants. Speaking of why people on the interents are ugly to each other. Thank you for assuming I had a grandmother. Everyone has a grandmother. Yours may no longer be alive, but you could still be living in her basement...and she could still be calling to you. "TB! Go! Bring me more neglected children!"
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Aug 22, 2014 9:49:11 GMT -5
I'm craving an Asperberger with a side of Arby Eyes for lunch. Can anyone tell me where to find the best ones?
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Aug 22, 2014 9:53:10 GMT -5
IMO we're ugly to each other because that's our baseline disposition as animals. If we didn't need other people to do things for us (make our goods, farm our animals, keep us safe, have our babies) there would be no reason to be "nice" to anyone. Essentially, we're only nice to people that we want something from.
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Aug 22, 2014 9:56:45 GMT -5
Don't know. Our local Arby's closed years ago, but when I first read the Arby Eyes I was wondering was that eyes on the bun of the roast beef sandwich?
I'm sure there are more fun misspellings in my future. I really miss when we had the spell checker that actually gave you choices that might be the word you mucked up. The checkers that just tell me 'you are wrong' are almost useless to me. Most of the time while I am typing the word I already know I am not remembering how to spell it!
Maybe it should be somewhere you can get a cool hamburger and a sliced beef sandwich.
(Interesting. I selected the lightbulb emoticon and it posted something else... )
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truthbound
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Post by truthbound on Aug 23, 2014 5:35:31 GMT -5
Speaking of why people on the interents are ugly to each other. Thank you for assuming I had a grandmother. Everyone has a grandmother. Yours may no longer be alive, but you could still be living in her basement...and she could still be calling to you. "TB! Go! Bring me more neglected children!" No everyone does not have a grandmother. If you did bless your heart. Enjoy your basement.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Aug 23, 2014 8:03:25 GMT -5
Milee,
I don't agree with the current definition or usage of the term mental illness. Some people lump Asperberger's, ADHD into mental illness, some do not.
I am not saying I am an expert, but I do think my understanding of the overall area is ahead of where it is and is where someday we will be. The programmer in Moneyball for example, didn't need to know what "Arby Eyes" was in order to turn the baseball world on its ear. He knew that the old wisdom of building a baseball team was incomplete and too costly for the team he worked for.
Similarly, I know there is a better way. I think I could turn the mental health field on its ear if I were so inclined. I don't need to know the current accepted definitions of borderline personality disorder to do so. I asked as a way to determine where the poster was coming from just like asking about the Yankees and "Arby Eyes" might give one a clue on what someone knows about baseball and how they think about it.
You realize you were blasting Rae for her "stupid" opinions while your "opinion" is based on you disagreeing with the medical community? Lmao!
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Aug 23, 2014 8:09:46 GMT -5
LOL! Okay, I'll bite! What are "Arby Eyes"? Is that "cutesy" for Runs Batted In, or am I way out in left field?
Oh, that would make sense. Lmao! I had no clue what that was...I'm not a baseball fan but I was pretty sure it wasn't a team (not positive though!lol)
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Aug 23, 2014 8:13:16 GMT -5
Everyone has a grandmother. Yours may no longer be alive, but you could still be living in her basement...and she could still be calling to you. "TB! Go! Bring me more neglected children!" No everyone does not have a grandmother. If you did bless your heart. Enjoy your basement. A grandmother is the woman who gave birth to one of your parents. She might have died long before you were born or you might never have had contact with her, but someone pushed your parents out of her hoo ha! Both of my grandfathers died long before I was born. They were still my grandfathers I have absolutely no background in anthropology, sociology or any applicable ology...but I am a self-described expert in this...I demand you all bow to my opinion!
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Aug 23, 2014 10:44:48 GMT -5
Hoo ha.
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NoNamePerson
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Post by NoNamePerson on Aug 23, 2014 10:47:05 GMT -5
No everyone does not have a grandmother. If you did bless your heart. Enjoy your basement. A grandmother is the woman who gave birth to one of your parents. She might have died long before you were born or you might never have had contact with her, but someone pushed your parents out of her hoo ha! Both of my grandfathers died long before I was born. They were still my grandfathers I have absolutely no background in anthropology, sociology or any applicable ology...but I am a self-described expert in this...I demand you all bow to my opinion! Maybe TB's mother was beamed down
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Aug 23, 2014 12:44:39 GMT -5
That's not as cut and dried as it used to be. Say your grandmother had an egg removed, fertilized with a guy's sperm, then implanted into a surrogate. Would the woman who pushed the resulting offspring out of her hoo ha be the grandmother a couple generations later? This stuff has been around long enough for somebody's grandmother to be effected. Provided that somebody was pretty young, and their parents had them young.
It is true however that everyone walking the planet today came from somebody's egg, and so did their parents, so at some point there was a grandmother.
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milee
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Post by milee on Aug 23, 2014 12:45:42 GMT -5
All this talk is making my hoo ha hurt.
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Aug 23, 2014 13:07:21 GMT -5
Milee, you got a sensitive hoo ha!
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ZaireinHD
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Post by ZaireinHD on Aug 23, 2014 13:25:33 GMT -5
yea ummm bout that definitely for the past 22 or 23 years I lived my life by treating others as I would want to be treated. I wasn't nice to people just because I need them. I was nice to everyone strangers, friends, and family. but now I have to learn to say no to people which I'm getting the hang of. just saying no at first was a feeling of being mean. however now that I'm getting into this - it's a stress relief.
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Aug 23, 2014 15:29:47 GMT -5
That's not as cut and dried as it used to be. Say your grandmother had an egg removed, fertilized with a guy's sperm, then implanted into a surrogate. Would the woman who pushed the resulting offspring out of her hoo ha be the grandmother a couple generations later? This stuff has been around long enough for somebody's grandmother to be effected. Provided that somebody was pretty young, and their parents had them young. It is true however that everyone walking the planet today came from somebody's egg, and so did their parents, so at some point there was a grandmother. If your parent's mothers both died before you were born, would you really say you had a grandmother? In a family tree sense you would, but in a day to day life you would have never had a physical grandmother to meet.
There's also closed adoptions. My Dad's "Mom", my grandmother who has passed, is his adoptive mother. No one knows who his biological parents are/were in my family. So did my Dad really "have" a grandmother? Depends on how you look at it.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Aug 23, 2014 15:38:46 GMT -5
Yeah, he just doesn't know who she is. A kid gets half their genetic material from their father, and half from their mother. That's true whether you know the people involved or not. Those folks each got half their genetic material from a father and mother. That's true whether they knew those two or not.
An orphan that was given up at birth still has a mother, a father, grandparents, great grandparents, etc., etc. they just don't know who they are.
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