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Post by Deleted on Feb 6, 2014 15:38:28 GMT -5
There's a big damned difference between loving and enabling. You can love your daughter and her kids, but enabling them will chain you to this cycle forever. And her kids will pick up on it and do the same thing. You've already done the raising of your child, and she's not a child anymore. Don't be guilted into thinking you have to have her living with you because of the kids. She needs to contact as many social services as your area has, and use as many as she is eligible for. You are not the Bank of Parents at this point. She made her decisions and she has to work with and through them. How is depending on Social Services less enabling than getting help from Pink?
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tloonya
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Post by tloonya on Feb 6, 2014 15:38:42 GMT -5
So, Looney, if Pink is totally responsible to provide a home and financial support for her grown daughter because she gave birth to her, isn't Pink's daughter responsible for providing a home and fianncial support for her own children because she gave birth to them? Not all the people created equal. With abilities, brains, talents, sins...we all are different. And what is easy for one can become impossible for another. More able and capable often unable to understand those who are weaker and maybe less aware of how to live this life. I am going to take responsibility for raising my child my way and Pink is absolutely taking it as well. However parenting can be powerless before genes and all...so seeing her child in trouble mother's first instinct is to hug and shelter her/him from all the troubles. And I am sure her DD will do the same. Later. For her kids AND her mother.
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NancysSummerSip
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Post by NancysSummerSip on Feb 6, 2014 15:47:47 GMT -5
There's a big damned difference between loving and enabling. You can love your daughter and her kids, but enabling them will chain you to this cycle forever. And her kids will pick up on it and do the same thing. You've already done the raising of your child, and she's not a child anymore. Don't be guilted into thinking you have to have her living with you because of the kids. She needs to contact as many social services as your area has, and use as many as she is eligible for. You are not the Bank of Parents at this point. She made her decisions and she has to work with and through them. How is depending on Social Services less enabling than getting help from Pink? It gets her out of Pink's house, for one thing. Section 8 housing. She's not independent of taxpayer help, which does, in effect, mean Pink contributes the same way other taxpayers do. But mentally and emotionally, Pink has already been through this. She does not have the space for DD and kid(s). She does not have the emotional wherewithall to raise another family. She's already done that. It's time for babymama to raise her own. Pink does not have to withhold help entirely, in case you missed the post I wrote after this one. I do not and never suggest abandonment. I do suggest not propping up DD to the point where she will not use her own two feet and backbone to face facts, stop repeating mistakes and move on to a situation that will be a benefit to her long term.
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Rocky Mtn Saver
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Post by Rocky Mtn Saver on Feb 6, 2014 15:48:24 GMT -5
So, Looney, if Pink is totally responsible to provide a home and financial support for her grown daughter because she gave birth to her, isn't Pink's daughter responsible for providing a home and fianncial support for her own children because she gave birth to them? Not all the people created equal. With abilities, brains, talents, sins...we all are different. And what is easy for one can become impossible for another. More able and capable often unable to understand those who are weaker and maybe less aware of how to live this life. I am going to take responsibility for raising my child my way and Pink is absolutely taking it as well. However parenting can be powerless before genes and all...so seeing her child in trouble mother's first instinct is to hug and shelter her/him from all the troubles. And I am sure her DD will do the same. Later. For her kids AND her mother. How can people learn how to apply their abilities, brains, talents etc, if they spend their life in a nest designed to shelter them from responsibility, challenges, and adversity? Those very traits are usually applied and used when a person learns by doing. What of her brains, talent, and ability will be built by living in her mother's spare room with 2 children, no job, no school, no responsibility, and no future? How will this help her learn how to "live this life"? I have no problem with Pink's manner of raising her child, but her daughter is not a child any more. Her daughter is a mother, and that comes with responsibilities. The time for playing 12-year-old is over. A mother's instinct might be to protect her offspring from trouble, but that will not help them learn to weather trouble - only to run back to the nest, which will someday not be there for them any more. One day, the parents will not be able to continue to care for their grown child, but she may not have learned the coping skills nor built her own home to be able to take care of them. And the cycle may continue because she won't have any coping skills, life skills, and fortitude to be able to teach them.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Feb 6, 2014 15:52:52 GMT -5
Social services in the US requires you to work to get benefits. Unless you're disabled enough to get disability payments. The low income housing that will be available, if any is, won't be the same as living with mom. It'll be run down, cheap builder's grade everything, and probably not in the best neighborhood. The neighbors will be trashy. The people at the welfare office will be snotty, overworked, and won't really seem to give a shit about how bad things are for lil Pink.
Living on social services in this country is degrading, draining, and a pain in the ass. It can also provide a lot more motivation to pull your head out of your ass so you don't have to live that way for life than crashing at mom's pretty decent middle class pad.
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Rocky Mtn Saver
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Post by Rocky Mtn Saver on Feb 6, 2014 15:53:15 GMT -5
So, Looney, if Pink is totally responsible to provide a home and financial support for her grown daughter because she gave birth to her, isn't Pink's daughter responsible for providing a home and fianncial support for her own children because she gave birth to them? Not all the people created equal. With abilities, brains, talents, sins...we all are different. And what is easy for one can become impossible for another. More able and capable often unable to understand those who are weaker and maybe less aware of how to live this life.
I am going to take responsibility for raising my child my way and Pink is absolutely taking it as well. However parenting can be powerless before genes and all...so seeing her child in trouble mother's first instinct is to hug and shelter her/him from all the troubles. And I am sure her DD will do the same. Later. For her kids AND her mother. How do you think people learn to be able and capable and understand how to live this life? By doing. By taking responsibility for themselves and their choices. By forming their own family. By supporting themselves. By doing what they have to do to provide for their children. By learning new things. This isn't magical - most of us learn to handle life by *handling* it. Enabling a grown parent to live their life like a 12-year-old only ensures that they will never grow beyond a 12-year-old. And that is no gift to give their child.
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Rocky Mtn Saver
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Post by Rocky Mtn Saver on Feb 6, 2014 15:54:04 GMT -5
Living on social services in this country is degrading, draining, and a pain in the ass. It can also provide a lot more motivation to pull your head out of your ass so you don't have to live that way for life than crashing at mom's pretty decent middle class pad.
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raeoflyte
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Post by raeoflyte on Feb 6, 2014 15:55:16 GMT -5
Pink--I'm so sorry you're going through this and I hope for the best for all of you!
I really like the idea of family counseling (and doubly/triply so if she does move back in with you). It is such a hard balancing act, to help and support, without enabling, and every persons line of where enabling begins is differently.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Feb 6, 2014 15:56:37 GMT -5
I'm not totally against letting a grown child move back home, by the way. In this case I am because you've already done it once. Helping somebody deal with a mistake is help. Helping them after they make the same mistake again is enabling. At least to me.
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Rocky Mtn Saver
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Post by Rocky Mtn Saver on Feb 6, 2014 15:59:26 GMT -5
I'm not totally against letting a grown child move back home, by the way. In this case I am because you've already done it once. Helping somebody deal with a mistake is help. Helping them after they make the same mistake again is enabling. At least to me. Agreed.
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raeoflyte
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Post by raeoflyte on Feb 6, 2014 16:00:42 GMT -5
I would view this more as a continuation of the same mistake. Pink didn't think she should move out when she did, and she was already pregnant before she moved out.
(Not saying that Pink has to let them move back in--that is definitely a personal decision as Pink knows her daughter and situation best).
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NancysSummerSip
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Post by NancysSummerSip on Feb 6, 2014 16:00:49 GMT -5
Pink, after discussing this with your DH, if you feel you must have DD and little ones in your house, make sure there are rules and deadlines. She has to learn some life skills, so let that happen in your house. If she has no cooking/cleaning/home repair skills, she can learn them under your roof. She has to go to school or work part time (if she works, and you don't need the money, put it aside so she can use it for future rent). If you cannot or will not babysit the young 'uns (and I can totally understand why you wouldn't at this point), then there must be child care arranged, and she cannot wheedle or beg you for it. She has to be responsible: no partying with friends or girls nights out without discussing it with you. Yes, she's an adult, as most of us have said. But it's your house, your rules. Her arrangement with you comes first.
And there should be deadlines. They can be somewhat flexible, but there should be deadlines.
ETA: I am not in favor of this solution, but given the economic factors and the pregnancy factor here, there may not be a lot else left. I don't want the toddler and new baby homeless, either. They didn't cause any of this.
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tloonya
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Post by tloonya on Feb 6, 2014 16:01:50 GMT -5
Living on social services in this country is degrading, draining, and a pain in the ass. It can also provide a lot more motivation to pull your head out of your ass so you don't have to live that way for life than crashing at mom's pretty decent middle class pad. WAS degrading. Lemme enlighten you - not anymore! Come see them at my store. I call them Princess on wellfare. And Rocky, was it really that RFLMAO funny?
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Rocky Mtn Saver
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Post by Rocky Mtn Saver on Feb 6, 2014 16:05:36 GMT -5
Pink, after discussing this with your DH, if you feel you must have DD and little ones in your house, make sure there are rules and deadlines. She has to learn some life skills, so let that happen in your house. If she has no cooking/cleaning/home repair skills, she can learn them under your roof. She has to go to school or work part time (if she works, and you don't need the money, put it aside so she can use it for future rent). If you cannot or will not babysit the young 'uns (and I can totally understand why you wouldn't at this point), then there must be child care arranged, and she cannot wheedle or beg you for it. She has to be responsible: no partying with friends or girls nights out without discussing it with you. Yes, she's an adult, as most of us have said. But it's your house, your rules. Her arrangement with you comes first.
And there should be deadlines. They can be somewhat flexible, but there should be deadlines.
ETA: I am not in favor of this solution, but given the economic factors and the pregnancy factor here, there may not be a lot else left. I don't want the toddler and new baby homeless, either. They didn't cause any of this. If we make the nest so comfortable, why would they ever be motivated to leave it? Set rules, be firm, set a timeline.
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NancysSummerSip
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Post by NancysSummerSip on Feb 6, 2014 16:12:37 GMT -5
Pink, after discussing this with your DH, if you feel you must have DD and little ones in your house, make sure there are rules and deadlines. She has to learn some life skills, so let that happen in your house. If she has no cooking/cleaning/home repair skills, she can learn them under your roof. She has to go to school or work part time (if she works, and you don't need the money, put it aside so she can use it for future rent). If you cannot or will not babysit the young 'uns (and I can totally understand why you wouldn't at this point), then there must be child care arranged, and she cannot wheedle or beg you for it. She has to be responsible: no partying with friends or girls nights out without discussing it with you. Yes, she's an adult, as most of us have said. But it's your house, your rules. Her arrangement with you comes first.
And there should be deadlines. They can be somewhat flexible, but there should be deadlines.
ETA: I am not in favor of this solution, but given the economic factors and the pregnancy factor here, there may not be a lot else left. I don't want the toddler and new baby homeless, either. They didn't cause any of this. If we make the nest so comfortable, why would they ever be motivated to leave it? Set rules, be firm, set a timeline. I add the flexibility issue only because crap happens. People get sick and have accidents, lose jobs, have house fires. Stuff like that beyond anyone's control. But beyond those types of things, I agree with you, Rocky: stick to the timeline. Use a calendar, chalkboard, whiteboard -something visual to see the passage of time and make sure the DD sees it too, so she cannot just say, "Oh, 10 months are over and I have 2 months left to get my act together??"
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Feb 6, 2014 16:16:13 GMT -5
That's the face they put on it when they're out in public. Go sit at the social services offices and watch them while they're in there applying for benefits, reporting job changes, recertifying, etc. I've seen DMV waiting areas that are less depressing.
You're being judged by the people working at social services. That's literally what they do for a living, they decide whether or not you're pathetic enough to need government aid according to their little charts and whatnot. It's a thoroughly depressing experience to have to go through.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Feb 6, 2014 16:51:35 GMT -5
If that were true, we wouldn't have a lot of people in it. It's easier to be degraded than work. They don't even think it is degrading because they've never seen anything different. Work is for suckers. If we didn't pay women to have kids, they'd either step up to the plate themselves or give them up for adoption, which is what used to be done. If your family wasnt there for you, you gave the baby p for adoption and went on with your life, sadder but wiser, hopefully. Now we ENABLE them to continue the cycle. Why should she learn anything from it? There were no repercussions the last time. If she had to give her baby up to someone who could care for it, maybe, just maybe, she'd have thought before having another one. That has to be the most painful but most noble thing you can do. Give your baby a chance at a decent life. It also give you a chance at one if you decide to do something with it.
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Rocky Mtn Saver
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Post by Rocky Mtn Saver on Feb 6, 2014 17:10:27 GMT -5
If we make the nest so comfortable, why would they ever be motivated to leave it? Set rules, be firm, set a timeline. I add the flexibility issue only because crap happens. People get sick and have accidents, lose jobs, have house fires. Stuff like that beyond anyone's control. But beyond those types of things, I agree with you, Rocky: stick to the timeline. Use a calendar, chalkboard, whiteboard -something visual to see the passage of time and make sure the DD sees it too, so she cannot just say, "Oh, 10 months are over and I have 2 months left to get my act together??" Yeah, that's why I used the phrase 'timeline' rather than, per se, 'deadline'. I'm just not sure how Pink can create a situation wherein timelines/deadlines/etc just get put off all the time. That's the hard part. Did anyone find out if Baby Daddy #1 is currently paying child support, and if the daughter will be filing whatever is necessary to get child support from Baby Daddy #2?
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NancysSummerSip
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Post by NancysSummerSip on Feb 6, 2014 17:13:52 GMT -5
I add the flexibility issue only because crap happens. People get sick and have accidents, lose jobs, have house fires. Stuff like that beyond anyone's control. But beyond those types of things, I agree with you, Rocky: stick to the timeline. Use a calendar, chalkboard, whiteboard -something visual to see the passage of time and make sure the DD sees it too, so she cannot just say, "Oh, 10 months are over and I have 2 months left to get my act together??" Yeah, that's why I used the phrase 'timeline' rather than, per se, 'deadline'. I'm just not sure how Pink can create a situation wherein timelines/deadlines/etc just get put off all the time. That's the hard part. Did anyone find out if Baby Daddy #1 is currently paying child support, and if the daughter will be filing whatever is necessary to get child support from Baby Daddy #2? Good question. If someone did ask, and there was an answer, I missed it. It does need to happen, though. Like it or not, the sperm donors are responsible and need to own up.
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raeoflyte
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Post by raeoflyte on Feb 6, 2014 17:16:56 GMT -5
Are we just assuming its not the same father for both kids?
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Rocky Mtn Saver
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Post by Rocky Mtn Saver on Feb 6, 2014 17:19:32 GMT -5
I got the impression it was a newer boyfriend than that, but I don't know if that was specifically said.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 6, 2014 18:59:08 GMT -5
Apologies for being MIA. The only internet access I have at work is on my phone and posting from it is a PIA.
To answer a few questions, it's way too late for an abortion even if she wanted one. The Dad would never go for adoption, his Mom abandoned him when he was small and he has major issues because of that. I seriously doubt he'd let his own child be given away. And to be honest, I don't think I could let that happen with my grandchildren either.
Just letting my Grandson live with me and not my daughter..... I don't know that that's a good solution either. It feels like it would be letting her off the hook. AND, I've raised 2 children already and neither of them are flourishing as young adults, so maybe I don't need to be parenting anybody else's child. I'm more mature now and a little wiser, and I've tried countless times to figure out where I went wrong as a parent. I can see things I could've done differently or better, but overall I was a pretty good Mom. If I don't know where I messed up with my 2, how do I know how to do better with another one? I'd give it my all if I had to raise my grandchildren, but it's not something I'm eager to do because I feel like a failure at parenting.
Now I've forgotten the rest of the questions and comments. Back to reading.....
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Post by Deleted on Feb 6, 2014 19:11:22 GMT -5
Someone mentioned a husband, I've been divorced from their father almost 20 years. Never remarried or lived with another man.
The list for section 8 housing is closed. I would be ok with public housing (I'll have to talk to her, I don't know anything about it), but to be honest again, I don't have the guts to let my grandbabies go to a shelter. Not even to help their mother learn some life lessons.
There are 2 fathers, which is embarrassing to her. She did file for child support from my grandson's dad, he lives out of state and I don't even know if he's working. The unborn baby's father has a little girl that spends most of her time with him and his family. He moved back here a few years ago to take care of her when her mother supposedly said she didn't have time to raise a kid. That gives me hope that he will be a part of this baby's life too, whether he and my daughter are in a relationship or not.
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Feb 6, 2014 19:12:42 GMT -5
Pink, you shouldn't feel like a failure. I'm a firm believer that kids' futures are heavily determined by nature rather than nurture. (I know way too many people who grew up in absolutely horrible situations (poverty, abuse) and turned out to be wonderful people, as well as those who had every opportunity for success and good, involved parents, and are still living in my hometown, burglarizing cars and selling Oxy...) Which is not to say that parents have no influence, but IMO it's not as much as you'd think. Your posts are always kind and well-reasoned, and unless your IRL personal is dramatically different, I don't think you're a bad parent at all. It is a tough situation and I don't have the answers. I don't know how far along your DD is, but it sounds like she has at least a few months to come up with a plan. Any way you can stall her moving in with you (if that's what you think will end up happening) until after the baby is born? I also second the suggestions to get her hooked up with social services - at the very least, WIC and subsidized daycare.
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JustLurkin
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Post by JustLurkin on Feb 6, 2014 19:21:46 GMT -5
If we make the nest so comfortable, why would they ever be motivated to leave it? Set rules, be firm, set a timeline. I add the flexibility issue only because crap happens. People get sick and have accidents, lose jobs, have house fires. Stuff like that beyond anyone's control. But beyond those types of things, I agree with you, Rocky: stick to the timeline. Use a calendar, chalkboard, whiteboard -something visual to see the passage of time and make sure the DD sees it too, so she cannot just say, "Oh, 10 months are over and I have 2 months left to get my act together??" This won't work because of the two grandchildren. She already said she feels bad for the kids, not so much her daughter. She's not going to put the kids out at the end of a timeline.
In my area, which of course may be different from your area, the waiting lists are maintained by each property--not by some central office.
You said something about her safety when he drinks. She should consider help from a shelter. The words "I fear for my safety." can make things happen. A shelter can also assist her with being moved up on a waitlist and/or temporary housing until the wait period is up. The waiting list will be hard for awhile--people generally don't move in the Winter so placement is harder to come by.
I don't think I can add anything else that hasn't already been said. Sorry you're in tough spot.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 6, 2014 19:28:38 GMT -5
I've fussed at my Mom for years for enabling my brother. He's in his 30's and has done nothing positive for himself. I don't want to be my Mom and I don't want either of my children to be my brother.
I've mentioned before that my children and I went to family counseling when they were teenagers. They stopped participating in the sessions and I kept going by myself and encouraging them to go either with me, or alone, even if I had to find someone else. My daughter has some emotional issues and I've never stopped encouraging her to go talk to someone and offering to pay for it. I really pushed for it earlier last year, but I can't MAKE her go. There is a history of mental illness in my family, my maternal grandfather died in state care, but I don't know what exactly his diagnosis was. Everyone just says he was "crazy". I think my Mom has had undiagnosed depression for years, I've been clinically depressed before, and something was very wrong with my daughter last year. I think she has a tendency toward severe depression. Or maybe I'm just grasping at straws to try to understand. Actually, between the counseling years ago and some other things, I know the emotional issues are real.
Anyway, I don't have any more answers today than I did yesterday. I do really appreciate you all sharing your thoughts, offering comforting words and real world advice.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 6, 2014 19:44:28 GMT -5
Lena, I forgot to answer you. The lease is in his name only.
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flopsy
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Post by flopsy on Feb 6, 2014 19:53:17 GMT -5
Pink - I am really sorry you are going through this. However, as long as you continue to enable your daughter, she has no reason whatsoever to stop making poor choices because there really are no consequences.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 6, 2014 20:18:31 GMT -5
Pink - I am really sorry you are going through this. However, as long as you continue to enable your daughter, she has no reason whatsoever to stop making poor choices because there really are no consequences. I agree with all the people saying to tough it out, be supportive but don't let her move back in and let her deal with the consequences of her choices. I agree wholeheartedly....... as long as we're talking about somebody else's child. When it's personal it's not so clear and easy, even less so when there are small children involved that didn't ask for any of it. When I first posted, I already knew in my heart that if she absolutely has no other option, I'll provide shelter for her and her babies. I guess I just wanted to whine about it while I tried to wrap my mind around it all. I'm going to talk to her about her options (the ones that don't include me) and go from there. Now I'm going to try to relax and unwind. Thanks again everyone!
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flopsy
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Post by flopsy on Feb 6, 2014 20:21:38 GMT -5
I hope your talk goes well. She will see the light some day. Stay strong
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