zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Feb 12, 2011 9:10:55 GMT -5
No, the unpardonable sin will be to not repay the money. In time for college at least at 10k per year. It is not OKAY to just say "sorry" and go on your merry way when you have the power to do the RIGHT thing. The RIGHT thing is to rerurn the money. Just because it is a family member does not give anyone the right to steal. It has been pointed out to her how she can repay the money, in two ways, make payments to her DD or get a loan on the house. Neither one she wants to hear or do because an "apology" should just do the trick. This whole thing is just sick. But the OP heard what she wanted to hear, that an apology (a "sincere" one) will make things right. What she doesn't want to hear is FIX the problem the way you fixed your dream house problem. With cash. OP is angry because not only did she lose cs, she had to pay it out as well plus I am sure listen to the piss and moanings of her co-conspirator.
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973beachbum
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Post by 973beachbum on Feb 12, 2011 9:11:19 GMT -5
So what? People do things that they know are wrong and do it anyway. And, wrong according to whom? It was her money. She may have earmarked it for her daughter down the road but she is allowed to change her mind whether you like it or not. You so get Karma for that! I have been trying to say that for 7 pages. I will say it again. Unless you really are Ms or Mr Moneybags NEVER tell a child that your savings are their college fund! If you want and have the money then by all means you can pay for all or part of your childs college. But if life happens after you told Jr that your savings were their college fund they will never understand if you need to use for something else.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Feb 12, 2011 9:18:10 GMT -5
Amen Beach Bum. It isn't that "life" happened but that someone's wants got in the way of someone else's needs.
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973beachbum
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Post by 973beachbum on Feb 12, 2011 9:23:42 GMT -5
Amen Beach Bum. It isn't that "life" happened but that someone's wants got in the way of someone else's needs. And I would agree with you if she spent someone else's money on her and her husbands wants. They didn't they spent their own savings. The really bad part was telling the child that it was hers. Now this girl has to completely change how she looks at paying for college. Truthfully with your salaries now vs a couple of years ago she would be much better off with financial aid if she lived with you and not her father. With an income over 100K she will not get any financial aid most likely. but if she lived with you and your taxable gross income is now under 50K she just might. Just a thought.
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Post by readsalot on Feb 12, 2011 9:35:00 GMT -5
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Feb 12, 2011 9:37:15 GMT -5
Yeah, I think I'm going to do what the other posters did that thought this was just sick.
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973beachbum
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Post by 973beachbum on Feb 12, 2011 9:39:40 GMT -5
But it wasn't the child's own money! This kid never worked a day in her life. It was the mom's and step dad"s own money. They used their own money to build a home for the family to live in. The only reason that they kid thinks it's hers is the mom called the account a college fund. Guess what? I can call my accounts anything I want and if life steps in the way of my plans and I need to use it for something else I will and I won't feel guilty at all.
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Gardening Grandma
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Post by Gardening Grandma on Feb 12, 2011 10:10:16 GMT -5
There seems to be a difference of opinion as to whether money earmarked for the daughter belonged to the daughter or the mother....
I have college funds for my grandchildren, but the funds are in an account with MY name on it and them as the beneficiary. If I needed to use those funds. I would not consider it "stealing" from them. (It helps that they don't know exactly how much is there). I HAVE told them that its for education only, and if they don't go to college, I will take a nice trip.
OTOH, if the funds came from the daughter's earnings, that's a different story.
The OP earmarked money for her daughter's college. Then she used it, intending to pay it back. Life happened and she couldn't. Sure, she should tell her daughter, "I'm really sorry that the money is gone. I will help as I can".
The daughter is learning one of life's lessons. Don't count on things. Stuff happens. Deal with it and move on.
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Gardening Grandma
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Post by Gardening Grandma on Feb 12, 2011 10:11:08 GMT -5
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Feb 12, 2011 10:23:06 GMT -5
Snerdley,
you have some serious inconsistency issues. When one posted wanted to walk away from her promise on her mortgage you got all hot and bothered, but when another poster walked away from her promise to her DD, you are saying "no biggy".
Pick one and stick with it, unless you are THAT bored that you just like posting and seeing your post count increase.
Lena
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Feb 12, 2011 10:30:14 GMT -5
oh dear Lord, she MADE A PROMISE. Or are you only take promises made in writing seriously?
Lena
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Post by money100 on Feb 12, 2011 10:47:25 GMT -5
Hey Daphne,
Just another vote for the "it's your money, do what you want" side.
I think it's probably disappointing for your kid to find out that the $ are gone. But it's not the end of the world and I wouldn't feel too much guilt if I were you.
I would suggest doing as another poster suggested: helping her to move her stuff to college, sending care packages (like a batch of cookies & a cute "Keep Going" card), a giftcard to Subway or whatever is on campus and driving over to her school from time to time to take her to lunch.
At the end of the day, parents do not owe their children a college education. They owe them food, shelter -- the basic necessities -- along with an opportunity to grow up to be well-adjusted, contributing member of society.
On a personal note, I paid my way through college. So did my sister. Our mom (a single mom!!!) wanted desperately to help us pay for it. It was impossible and it was ridiculous to have her bankrupt HER future (her retirement account and house mortgage that she was carrying on her own) to try to put us through school. We refused outright. I imagine she felt guilty about it (we opted to work part-time while in school, full-time in the breaks and summer, and took on student loans) and so she did some little things. She got us some nice clothes (not expensive or anything) and shoes and regularly mailed homemade food, drove up or down (depending on which one of us) to visit and bring new sheets or a more comfy swivel chair.
Seriously, it will be fine.
Another thing: my student loans will be paid off completely after a total repayment period of 10 years. My mom's retirement funds would have serious catching up to do. She might have lost her house or been eating cat food in order to make the payments.
Basically, you made the right choice.
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Feb 12, 2011 11:00:17 GMT -5
Yep
Who cares? Nobody is talking about you.
I guess so was the poster who promised to pay her mortgage. Tell me again, LOGICALLY, if you know how, how exactly is this different?
I propose for you to go back and read my posts if you are interested, since I am not going to be re-typing all of them for your pleasure.
I don't respond to dramatic statements bc to me they are just silly.
Lena
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Feb 12, 2011 11:21:47 GMT -5
Bottom line here: Yes, she promised her child the money and it was wrong of her to use it for other purposes. Yes, an apology by itself is insufficient. Yes, she needs to do it anyway as an apology is an important first step. Yes, she then needs to follow up that apology with a real action, replacing the college funds ASAP.
Daphne, I'm very disappointed that you don't want to take out $40k against your house to save your relationship with your daughter. Or even 10k for the first year. I hope you change your mind. I still think you have made a lot of progress in recognizing your own responsibility in this situation, however, and I give you credit for that. It's not easy.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 12, 2011 11:37:55 GMT -5
Her husband has said he won't sign for a loan against their equity. I think the OP should do everything in her power to get her financial house in order. If things improve enough for them to pay her daughter back, they should. She could pay some of her daughter's loans in the future for example. But if things continue with her DH underemployed and medical bills then she will really regret giving her daughter 40k she couldn't afford.
I think about it this way - if the OP had posted that the household income had dropped by half, that her husband was having mental issues and not working steadily, that she was working two jobs and paying child support, and that her daughter was applying to very expensive schools without her input no one would be advising her to give her daughter 40k for her education. Most of us would call that foolish - with the old saw that you can borrow for education but not for retirement. Having a paid off house may be the only thing that keeps them afloat in the future considering their low retirement assets and her DH's health problems.
I've been struggling with depression these last couple of years. My insurance pays a pittance towards therapy, medication and psychiatric appointments. I just paid out $600 in bills for mental health alone this month. I have a feeling that if her husband's issues are as large as they seem to be that the OP will be spending $$$ on medical bills in the future.
People break promises all the time when circumstances change - divorce anyone?
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Feb 12, 2011 11:38:58 GMT -5
OP - I would NOT take out a heloc unless you can afford to do so. At this point, it sounds like finances are iffy and your spouse has had some issues as well. You will simply have to make do with what you have, you cannot go back in time. A 10k HELOC is what, 70 bucks a month? I would consider that a small price to pay for saving my relationship with my kid. Just my $0.02 though. Well, actually, maybe $0.05--it's good advice ;D
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Post by gsbrq on Feb 12, 2011 12:02:23 GMT -5
Not inconsistent at all. The money that I have may be used for my children's college. It is not "their money" in any way at all. There is no contract. Obligating yourself through a contract to pay your mortgage or bills is completely different and has absolutely nothing to do with what we are talking about. The OP stated that the money was earmarked for daughter's college. She told the daughter this as well. So she is reneging on a promise to her daughter...and you think that is ok but failing to pay bills/mortgage isn't? I agree that parents aren't obligated to pay for their kids' college education. But promising to contribute, then spending that money building a "dream house", is a failure and a betrayal. You truly think that a written contract with a bank should carry more weight than a commitment you've made to a daughter?
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Post by gsbrq on Feb 12, 2011 12:50:34 GMT -5
I already made my recommendations to the OP.
My question was to you, Snerdley, since you seem to be arguing that walking away from a mortgage is a moral failing but that raiding the college fund to build a dream house is just one of life's little mistakes....say "oops, my bad" and then move on as if it were nothing.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Feb 12, 2011 12:56:38 GMT -5
And, again, what is it you want her to do NOW? Give. Her. Forty. Thousand. Dollars. For. College. Like. She. Promised. I don't understand what's so complicated about that.
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patchwork150
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Post by patchwork150 on Feb 12, 2011 13:39:19 GMT -5
woo! too many pages to read. But, with what I have read- I think the OP should talk to her daughter about how she feels about the whole situation. Her DD's getting ready for college, becoming an adult, and while she may not be ready to understand, she may later. Seems like DD's been a little babied by two parents who have had a lot of $ and material items at their disposal compared to most of us in the middle class (100k earning dad, mom paid for a dream house, etc).
I moved out at 17, when I was told I had to pay rent, would recieve no help for college, and was NOT allowed to have a license (supposedly, it would cost too much and raise my dad's insurance, and I would never make enough to pay the difference). I had a job at the time (senior in high school), but rode with my mother. Mom changed jobs, I didn't- so no way to get to work, and no money. So I moved out the day I graduated high school. I worked through and still am working through college with the DH's help. I am 13 or so classes from my Bachelors, and I owe nothing. I plan on continuing to a PHD- I want to be a veterinarian.
My little brother on the other hand (only 2 yrs younger) was allowed to have his license, lived at college, home on vacation, paying nothing. dad divided the profits on the farm with him by 1/3, etc. Mom&Dad paid his cell phone bills, insurace, gave him gas money (even to go vist 3 hours away to see his GF), took out large personal loans to pay for his college. He went to an expensive college, didn't even graduate (he is one freaking credit short of his associates degree, and hasn't attended college since 2009), got with an 18 year old girl, knocked her up, and moved in with her. He now is the proud daddy of a 3 month old, and works 12 hour shifts at night to support the girlfriend who never wants to work again, and the baby. He also just bought a 2011 new car, and owes $ everywhere. I think he's about 50k in debt already, and rents.
Sometimes parents, your kids need to build themselves from the ground up. Hand holding should only go so far. Working hard won't kill anyone.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 12, 2011 14:55:06 GMT -5
Wow Daphne - I just read this whole thread. I'm emotionally exhausted. I am sure you are as well and you are to be commended for taking the tough love handed out.
But once more I see a lot of all or nothing thinking. You are going to be in a better financial position in December when child support ends. How about saving for retirement and making things up to daughter?
When you meet with her to apologize for the situation( great idea BTW) could you or would you be willing to commit to her that you will spend 4 years getting on your feet? She in the meantime could take out a student loan for the amount that she had been told was coming to her ($20k or $40k - I'm confused on this point)and you could COMMIT to her to make the payments on that loan once she has COMPLETED her degree.
The kicker on this is that you MUST make good on this promise - because you have already broken a major one to her. And if you don't pay it, it would most certainly end the relationship and rightfully so.
If it were me as has been suggested here, I would take out a $40k mortgage on my home in December and I would have a come to Jesus talk with the current husband. As much as the kid moving out caused unexpected financial hardship - so did his disease and leaving his job to deal with it. He needs to understand that he too has culpability here - whether it is justified by his health or not, his situation is still a causative factor. The $300+ payments will be more than offset by the $$1100 child support that is going away then. If he loses sleep about a mortgage then he can work through it with his therapist. But again - this is just what I would do.
Regardless - I wish you luck. I know teen age kids are a pain - but the one thing that you truly ought to be able to count on in life is your parents - even if you are a mouth, selfish, PITA teen. Probably especially then.
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vonnie6200
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Post by vonnie6200 on Feb 12, 2011 18:18:24 GMT -5
Hey Daphne, Just another vote for the "it's your money, do what you want" side. I think it's probably disappointing for your kid to find out that the $ are gone. But it's not the end of the world and I wouldn't feel too much guilt if I were you. I would suggest doing as another poster suggested: helping her to move her stuff to college, sending care packages (like a batch of cookies & a cute "Keep Going" card), a giftcard to Subway or whatever is on campus and driving over to her school from time to time to take her to lunch. At the end of the day, parents do not owe their children a college education. They owe them food, shelter -- the basic necessities -- along with an opportunity to grow up to be well-adjusted, contributing member of society. On a personal note, I paid my way through college. So did my sister. Our mom (a single mom!!!) wanted desperately to help us pay for it. It was impossible and it was ridiculous to have her bankrupt HER future (her retirement account and house mortgage that she was carrying on her own) to try to put us through school. We refused outright. I imagine she felt guilty about it (we opted to work part-time while in school, full-time in the breaks and summer, and took on student loans) and so she did some little things. She got us some nice clothes (not expensive or anything) and shoes and regularly mailed homemade food, drove up or down (depending on which one of us) to visit and bring new sheets or a more comfy swivel chair. Seriously, it will be fine. Another thing: my student loans will be paid off completely after a total repayment period of 10 years. My mom's retirement funds would have serious catching up to do. She might have lost her house or been eating cat food in order to make the payments. Basically, you made the right choice. I agree and I couldn't have said this better!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 12, 2011 19:27:33 GMT -5
The more I read this thread, the more annoyed I got. It was a no-brainer that the money Mom had saved had come from the substantial child support the ex was paying, I did some math, and it is at least twice what she is paying (about $1200), which is in itself fair. He earns twice as much. But for most of DD's life, Mom did the right thing and saved the extra to pay for her education.
Fast forward. Mom and step-Dad want a new house. I can't imagine where the rest of this money (more than $200,000 came from), but I'm guessing a previous residence. I can't imagine anyone sacrificed and saved that much . . . and then decided to blow the whole wad plus DD's college account to build a dream house.
The OP sees that she did nothing wrong. She is the poster child for all the moms (and dads) that feel that child support is family income. It isn't. It is for the support of the child. At one point OP understood that.
What upset me the most, though, were the posters who thought she did nothing wrong. It was "her" money. Actually, it was always her daughter's money. And the daughter didn't benefit from the newer, bigger house even if she lived there for a short while.
Daphne isn't interesting anymore. The responses are. As others have noted, people get all upset about people making a decision to walk away from a mortgage, but not about walking away from a promise to a child.
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doxieluvr
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Post by doxieluvr on Feb 12, 2011 19:54:12 GMT -5
I'm amazed that a small home would cost almost 300k to buy/build. Must be top of the line everything. 1300 sq ft? With your husband's health issues and not much money coming in, I'm amazed that you did it. I guess your dream was worth it but I can't imagine spending every nickel of my own and all of someone else's on sticks and bricks. This! OP- I think you need to take a $40k home equity loan and replace your daughters college fund. Had she not known it existed I would feel different, but you told her it was available and reneged on the deal. $40k is not enough money to ruin the relationship. Suck it up and repay the debt.
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vonnie6200
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Post by vonnie6200 on Feb 12, 2011 20:15:57 GMT -5
The more I read this thread, the more annoyed I got. It was a no-brainer that the money Mom had saved had come from the substantial child support the ex was paying, I did some math, and it is at least twice what she is paying (about $1200), which is in itself fair. He earns twice as much. But for most of DD's life, Mom did the right thing and saved the extra to pay for her education. Fast forward. Mom and step-Dad want a new house. I can't imagine where the rest of this money (more than $200,000 came from), but I'm guessing a previous residence. I can't imagine anyone sacrificed and saved that much . . . and then decided to blow the whole wad plus DD's college account to build a dream house. The OP sees that she did nothing wrong. She is the poster child for all the moms (and dads) that feel that child support is family income. It isn't. It is for the support of the child. At one point OP understood that. What upset me the most, though, were the posters who thought she did nothing wrong. It was "her" money. Actually, it was always her daughter's money. And the daughter didn't benefit from the newer, bigger house even if she lived there for a short while. Daphne isn't interesting anymore. The responses are. As others have noted, people get all upset about people making a decision to walk away from a mortgage, but not about walking away from a promise to a child. The missing part of this equation is - how much did the child cost each month? How much was Mom and step-dad contributing to her care.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 12, 2011 22:04:54 GMT -5
" I don't think the OP would necessarily need to take out the whole $40k. Why not just get a line of credit and go from there? She might only need a portion of that at a time, certainly not all at once. But, I do think mom has some say as to where she is going to college and how much she would contribute. And, as for making some "
Valid point. A line of credit is would be better. I agree she should be able to say what she will contribute - but I kind of feel that if it were me I would say - I can do xx amount. If that wasn't enough to cover the upscale school, then oh well - the kid needs to take that into account when making their choice. But I believe they should choose their school - but as a well informed adult realizing they will have to take on debt or work to go there.
The guarantee to pay - not my first choice either. Quite frankly, I doubt the daughter would believe it. I was just trying to think of an alternative the current husband might be able to live with as opposed to taking a mortgage.
But then I am a person that believes that if you bring a kid into this world, then you have an obligation to give them the best start you can - and IMO that is an education. I realize others disagree - but that is just how I feel. The dtr may be a PIA but I think the mother needs to honor her obligation.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 13, 2011 5:11:46 GMT -5
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Feb 14, 2011 9:39:33 GMT -5
But then I am a person that believes that if you bring a kid into this world, then you have an obligation to give them the best start you can - and IMO that is an education. I realize others disagree - but that is just how I feel. The dtr may be a PIA but I think the mother needs to honor her obligation.
I disagree that parents are obligated to provide their kids with a college education, BUT if you promise something to your kid you need to follow through on it. Having promised her daughter $40k for college, Daphne should do her utmost to provide $40k for her daughter's college.
A lot of people, myself included, don't take other people seriously if they go back on their word, even once. Do you really want to forfeit your own child's respect?
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zuzu
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Post by zuzu on Feb 14, 2011 13:36:22 GMT -5
OP had financial problems when DH had to quit his job. Granted, they used the $40,000 for a house, but that money would probably have been needed for living expenses anyway. And now they don't have the issue of losing their house due to lack of funds. Paying for or helping with college would be great but circumstances change. As long as the money was not in the daughter's name, it's still the OP's to do with as she sees fit.
I guess she could co-sign a loan for a certain amount as her portion of funds for college but right now it doesn't sound like she can afford that. Of course, the $600 in child support could go a long way to help pay for college costs in the future IF SHE DECIDES SHE WANTS TO HELP WITH COLLEGE EXPENSES.
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gooddecisions
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Post by gooddecisions on Feb 15, 2011 0:33:12 GMT -5
It would be nice to see the OP's budget to determine if there really is a big financial issue. If you change the scenario a little and somebody were to say they got a 40,000 windfall and are 45 yo with a senior in high-school: should I pay off the remaining $40k balance of my mortgage or use the money to help my daughter pay for college- whom I promised to help out. I just don't see people saying pay off the mortgage when there are so many more earning years ahead. I get that you had limited options and were forced to use the college fund you promised your daughter. It sounds like you are now house-rich but poor in every other aspect- exactly why Phil does not recommend tying up all your money in a paid off house.
I don't see a paid-off dream house at 45 being worth severing your relationship with your daughter. Everyone will resent the house and it will be nobody's dream. Based on your posts, it doesn't sound like your daughter has gone near the house since you moved in and instead prefers to meet you at Panera- so maybe she already does resent it?
As far as making it right: Given the housing crises, I could see why it might be difficult to refinance an investment property, but it should really not be that difficult to pull 40K out of 300,000 lien free primary residence (unless you're not telling us something- do you actually have a mortgage?). A 40,000 mortgage at 5.5% amortized over 30 years would only be $227/month- a modest amount to restore your promise.
I just watched a movie called "The Middle of Nowhere" where Susan Sarandon's character did the same thing to her daughter- used the college fund to invest in a fixer-upper that she was going to flip and get the money back. Needless to say, she did not get the money back and it was also the daughter's senior year. She was devastated. I hope you at least help your daughter figure out how to get financial aid and loans. It would be really awful to think it was all squared away and then in your senior year of highschool have the rug pulled out from under you and have your mother hate you because you want to live your last year as a "child" with your father.
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