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Post by Deleted on Feb 11, 2011 15:23:38 GMT -5
Maybe it is just me, but I know a ton of parents that had to continue paying child support while their kids are in college, and as it seems the only way you will, I hope her father goes to court and gets it. You decided your wants (the house) was more important than honoring a promise to your child, with this and the other comments I understand why she went to live with her father.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Feb 11, 2011 15:31:30 GMT -5
The thing is that if your kids don't know the financial score, how are they supposed to plan ahead?
A diligent saver could save at least a few thousand in high school, which would make a dent in the first years' tuition if nothing else. If they were going to CC, it might pay for the entire first semester. Only they have no reason to do that if Mom and Dad have a college fund set aside for them, and they should probably just be focusing on keeping their grades high and doing lots of extracurriculars rather than working.
If Mom and Dad had $40k for college, I can appreciate Daphne's kid not wanting to work-- why should she? Her only upcoming major expense is locked up. Sure, it's prudent to work anyway (I think all teenagers should work summers, regardless of financial circumstances) but she probably thought she didn't HAVE to, and I think that was a legitimate thought process for a teenager.
Suddenly she's 17 with $0 saved for college when just recently she was 16 with $40,000 saved for college. If you don't think she has the right to be angry over her parents changing the terms on her like that, you're nuts.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 11, 2011 15:36:29 GMT -5
daphne - I think you've taken a lot of criticism with a lot of grace. I exalt you.
When I was younger I didn't live with my biological mother. She and I had a rough relationship when I was a teen. The people who raised me were openly critical of her, mean, and dysfunctional. The situation broke my heart. But I've grown up a great deal and as a parent have a lot more appreciation for my mom. We're great friends now.
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domeasingold
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Post by domeasingold on Feb 11, 2011 15:44:25 GMT -5
Do you have or have had legal representation? The former husband needs to get his head out of his ass. I would go after the guy for the CS he skipped out on. However, there is no good reason to put DD in the middle. In time she willregret her actions and never be able to forgive herself for putting you in this situation. The reason I say legal representation is that an attorney may have a clear way of handling the situation in case Former husband decides to escalate his behavior. Otherwise do not give in. You can only be responsible for what you can provide within your limits.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Feb 11, 2011 15:51:15 GMT -5
That's the best feeling in the world, when ex's no longer can control you via the children!!!!
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Post by Deleted on Feb 11, 2011 16:15:20 GMT -5
Exalt for tbird!
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Feb 11, 2011 16:26:19 GMT -5
daphne - I think you've taken a lot of criticism with a lot of grace. I exalt you.
Seconded. I hope that all this works out in a positive way for you and your daughter.
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Post by debtheaven on Feb 11, 2011 16:32:06 GMT -5
Thirded.
You can, and should, find a way to make things right financially, even if you don't come up with the whole 40K.
Also, I understand that your DH is having problems and that he is underemployed. But given the circumstances, why are you working part-time? I work part-time too, and I really don't mean to be harsh, but I didn't spend 40K of money I promised my DD for college ...
The bottom line is, you changed the goal posts. THAT is surely why she is upset. She was counting on that money, and then it disappeared into thin air (as far as she is concerned). Who can blame her?
Again, best of luck, I really hope this works out for all of you.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Feb 11, 2011 16:33:10 GMT -5
I thought the OP worked full-time and part-time.
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Post by debtheaven on Feb 11, 2011 16:38:28 GMT -5
Sorry Daphne and Zib, I did indeed miss that about the FT and PT jobs.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 11, 2011 17:28:47 GMT -5
I'm glad you are feeling all warm and fuzzy, Daphne. This isn't the MSN Money Board that I remember, though. They were fans of tough love.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Feb 11, 2011 17:34:09 GMT -5
She got her tough love, but when people show that they don't have their head up their ass, we get nicer after while because it's so refreshing to come across someone who can take constructive criticism.
Especially in this case where you have a girl's future relationship with her mom on the line.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 11, 2011 18:32:23 GMT -5
Really, Firebird? The truth is that Daphne and her DH spent her daughter's college fund on their dream home. Then they tried to blame it on the daughter for "spending" it by moving out . . . even though her mother doesn't spend a fraction on child support of what they took. When people suggested she pay it back, she made it clear that it was much more important that she save for their retirement.
. . . Just as it was more important that they have their dream home than help her daughter get a college education. After all, her daughter can borrow the money to pay for her education. You can't borrow to build your dream house.
Ironically, I'll be the one flamed rather than the original poster, but this thread was really something else.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Feb 11, 2011 18:41:43 GMT -5
You sound just like my mom.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Feb 11, 2011 18:43:52 GMT -5
Really, Firebird? The truth is that Daphne and her DH spent her daughter's college fund on their dream home. Then they tried to blame it on the daughter for "spending" it by moving out . . . even though her mother doesn't spend a fraction on child support of what they took. When people suggested she pay it back, she made it clear that it was much more important that she save for their retirement. . . . Just as it was more important that they have their dream home than help her daughter get a college education. After all, her daughter can borrow the money to pay for her education. You can't borrow to build your dream house. Ironically, I'll be the one flamed rather than the original poster, but this thread was really something else. I went back and read my posts from this morning-- and they actually were milder than I remember, given how pissed off I was at Daphne. But several posters were harsher than me. She admits that she is angry at her daughter for preferring her ex, and that she is taking her anger at her ex out on her daughter. She admits that taking the tuition money and catering to her current husband was wrong, and she wants to make amends. What more do you want from her? People don't usually turn around and see the error of their ways in a single day, and actually making plans to DO something about their past errors in a single day is even rarer. I don't think Daphne's relationship with her daughter is going to get significantly better anytime soon or without a lot of work on Daphne's part, but I am impressed at her lack of defensiveness and her willingness to take in some very unflattering truths about herself.
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Post by debtheaven on Feb 11, 2011 18:50:11 GMT -5
I can crawl into a corner in shame, or I can find a way to make things right with my kid
You WILL make it right, Daphne, I know. BUT, you have to stop making excuses (and you are doing that!). The bottom line is, you promised her that money, she counted on it, you need to make good on your promise even if it's not for the whole amount.
About the relationship with the stepdad, I wasn't going to touch that one with a 10-foot pole. But since TBird did, if he "walks on water", surely he can be at least an ally, if not a mediator, in this situation?
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Feb 11, 2011 18:51:37 GMT -5
I was seeing red when I read OP. I couldn't believe that an adult could be this .... wow, I can't even find a word.... about their child.
I am still skeptical that Daphne "saw the light" just within few hours and 100 posts from strangers, but as harsh as I am at times, I am willing to give people benefit of the doubt.
It sounds like she only has one child and I can not imagine being estranged from your only child due to your own selfishness and stupid anger, so I hope that she does the smart, grown-up thing and rebuilds her relationship.
Lena
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Post by Deleted on Feb 11, 2011 18:59:34 GMT -5
Firebird, you read what you wanted to. She doesn't particularly want to make amends . . . as in paying significantly for her daughter's education. As another poster suggested, continuing $1000 a month toward her college expenses (she is paying $1100 in child support) would repay the $40,000 quickly. She is worried about saving for retirement now and suggesting she can offer her daughter pizza money. That is trivializing the cost of an education, trust me. Even if her daughter goes to a state school and her father chips in, she will be taking major student loans. There is nothing wrong with that except that she said this was her daughter's college savings . . .
She also isn't saying she catered to her husband in taking this money. She just said her husband, who offered the excuse that they were going to pay it back but the daughter had spent it, did have some mental problems when I suggested that is the same train of thought that embezzlers offer. She also admitted that when she said her daughter cost her $25,000 when she moved back with her father was a little off (by more than 50%) when she thought about it.
I don't think their relationship will get significantly better either. Daphne is right to save the $$$ for her own retirement because her daughter will never forget this. She may forgive because we all tend to forgive the people we love, and children want to love their parents. But trust me, she won't forget. There used to be posts all the time on MSN about people who didn't give a rip about what happened to their parents after how their parents failed them.
Sorry, Daphne . . . you aren't a "bad" person . . . or at least it's not my place to judge. But you made some odd choices . . . and still are . . . if you want to consider yourself a loving parent. A dream house over your daughter's education? Wow.
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Post by debtheaven on Feb 11, 2011 19:00:08 GMT -5
Also, frankly, I don't get how your "dream home" would have been "held up" by a lender if you were only borrowing 40K out of 290K. I'm guessing they wouldn't have even known about that loan until you were at the last stages.
I do however get that you expected to replace that money quickly.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Feb 11, 2011 19:00:23 GMT -5
I was seeing red when I read OP. I couldn't believe that an adult could be this .... wow, I can't even find a word.... about their child.I am still skeptical that Daphne "saw the light" just within few hours and 100 posts from strangers, but as harsh as I am at times, I am willing to give people benefit of the doubt. It sounds like she only has one child and I can not imagine being estranged from your only child due to your own selfishness and stupid anger, so I hope that she does the smart, grown-up thing and rebuilds her relationship. Lena Me too, Lena. Me too. And remembering all the times my best friend has been crushed by her mother's cruelty and selfishness, I got even angrier. I'd rather not entertain the possibility that the OP is playing with us. That's always going to be a possibility on an anonymous message board. I tend to treat people as legit, if only because I'll go nuts if I'm constantly questioning everyone's integrity. Besides, Daphne has been saying all day that she already knew she was angry with her daughter. It's completely possible that she already knew she was mad, but she didn't quite understand the link between her current situation and her past actions. She said she wanted outside perspectives and that they were helping her clarify. So I want to believe that's exactly what happened, and things will be different now. In any case, I'm not going to continue to beat someone up once they've already said they're wrong. Once you reach that point, continuing to self-flagellate does zero good. You just need to move forward and do what you can to rectify the situation.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 11, 2011 19:04:50 GMT -5
I was seeing red when I read OP. I couldn't believe that an adult could be this .... wow, I can't even find a word.... about their child.I am still skeptical that Daphne "saw the light" just within few hours and 100 posts from strangers, but as harsh as I am at times, I am willing to give people benefit of the doubt. It sounds like she only has one child and I can not imagine being estranged from your only child due to your own selfishness and stupid anger, so I hope that she does the smart, grown-up thing and rebuilds her relationship. Lena Me too, Lena. Me too. And remembering all the times my best friend has been crushed by her mother's cruelty and selfishness, I got even angrier. I'd rather not entertain the possibility that the OP is playing with us. That's always going to be a possibility on an anonymous message board. I tend to treat people as legit, if only because I'll go nuts if I'm constantly questioning everyone's integrity. Besides, Daphne has been saying all day that she already knew she was angry with her daughter. It's completely possible that she already knew she was mad, but she didn't quite understand the link between her current situation and her past actions. She said she wanted outside perspectives and that they were helping her clarify. So I want to believe that's exactly what happened, and things will be different now. In any case, I'm not going to continue to beat someone up once they've already said they're wrong. Once you reach that point, continuing to self-flagellate does zero good. You just need to move forward and do what you can to rectify the situation. But I still don't think she will rectify the situation, just make it worse by offering pizza money instead of actual support. This is why I hope OP's ex husband files to continue child support through university.
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Post by debtheaven on Feb 11, 2011 19:07:48 GMT -5
I'm hoping she does make things right. She can.
Why not give her the benefit of the doubt?
If she doesn't come through, there is always time to criticize her then.
I do have to admit though, I'd eat dirt before I raided my kid's college funds.
But what's done is done. Why not leave it alone and see what happens?! I really think we need to leave Daphne alone now to work things out.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Feb 11, 2011 19:15:13 GMT -5
Susana, perhaps I'm being naive. I'm not the best judge of character, and I freely admit that about myself. As I said, I tend to leave that completely out of the equation on these message boards.
Do you remember the crazy lady from the old threads who thought her $16 in foodstamps was beneath her? It took HUNDREDS of posts for me to consider the possibility that she wasn't on the level. And even then, it didn't stop me from continuing to treat her as legit and try to get her to come around (along with a lot of other posters).
Maybe you've never done something truly horrible to someone that you love that you wish you hadn't done and can't ever take back? I'm not being sarcastic here, because until October of last year, I fell into that category. Then I did something awful that I regret every day of my life to someone who means more to me than anyone. And unlike OP, there's no tangible amends I can make. All I could do was ask his forgiveness (which I didn't deserve, but I got anyway), and try to move forward as best I can. So in a way, I know how Daphne feels. There are certain mistakes that forever alter a relationship and the way someone sees you, and I think raiding your kids' college fund is one of those mistakes.
That being said, if I remember correctly she and her husband have $140k saved for retirement. That is a drop in the bucket at their ages. Retirement savings should be her number one priority right now so she doesn't have to worry about placing the additional burden of later-life care on her daughter along with the educational burden she's already bestowed. It's easy to say that she could pay the money back in three and a half years, but the reality is that she needs to prioritize at this point.
I think she needs to pay back the money, but I also think she needs to worry about retirement savings. One of the best things she can do for her daughter is not make the situation any worse than it is.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Feb 11, 2011 19:26:35 GMT -5
Daphne, as I said earlier-- sometimes an apology isn't enough, and this is one of those situations. You need to pay your daughter back, even if it's not the full amount and even if it doesn't mitigate the hardship that not having the money in the first place caused.
However, there is a certain power in receiving a genuine apology from a parent who's been screwing up and hurting you for a long time and has realized the error of his/her ways. Don't underestimate the power of those words. Your daughter needs to hear them... and you need to say them.
I can't tell you how much it meant to me, and how much better our relationship became, when my dad genuinely apologized to me for the way he treated me, and told me how wrong he had been with absolutely no qualifications or attempts at justifying what he did. It was a true first in our relationship, and I never forgot it.
Yes, it took some time before his actions caught up with that apology. It didn't make everything better overnight. But it was such an important first step, and you know what? It made me a lot more willing to forgive his subsequent errors. I knew that he was trying. I knew that he loved me, and I knew that things were going to be okay between us eventually. Today they are.
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Feb 11, 2011 19:31:44 GMT -5
You know, THIS is the part that bothers me the most - YOU being angry at HER. I can understand (not agree or condone, but understand) you taking the money, I can understand (again, not agree or condone) that you not liking that she went to live with her dad, but how on this green Earth can you be angry at HER??? For what??? Bc she didn't want to get a job? Bc she had an expectation of getting something you promised her?
And seriously, if you are displacing your anger for your ex on your DD - OMG, I can not even touch that one. May be I shouldn't speak bc I don't have teenagers. May be I shouldn't speak bc I don't have an ex-husband, but from where I am, I just can't imagine that.
Lena
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Plain Old Petunia
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Post by Plain Old Petunia on Feb 11, 2011 19:41:05 GMT -5
I don't think parents EVER have an obligation to pay for college.
I think you owe it to your kids to provide for their needs to the best of your ability while they are minor children. You've done that. Anything else you want to do is up to you.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Feb 11, 2011 19:44:41 GMT -5
You know, THIS is the part that bothers me the most - YOU being angry at HER. I can understand (not agree or condone, but understand) you taking the money, I can understand (again, not agree or condone) that you not liking that she went to live with her dad, but how on this green Earth can you be angry at HER??? For what??? Bc she didn't want to get a job? Bc she had an expectation of getting something you promised her? And seriously, if you are displacing your anger for your ex on your DD - OMG, I can not even touch that one. May be I shouldn't speak bc I don't have teenagers. May be I shouldn't speak bc I don't have an ex-husband, but from where I am, I just can't imagine that. Lena I could be wrong (I'm no psychologist), but I think she's projecting her anger at herself onto her daughter. The aforementioned incident I spoke of, where I deeply hurt the person I loved? I was PISSED at him when it happened. Even sorta had myself believing he deserved it. I got over that pretty quick and realized that I was BEYOND angry with myself for my own despicable actions. When you're that angry with yourself, it's hard to deal with it all at once. At least it was for me. Totally different situation, but perhaps it's something like that. Don't misunderstand-- it's not okay for her to be this angry at her kid for any reason, and it's sure as hell not okay for her to be ACTING on that kind of irrational anger. I'm not justifying, just postulating on where that anger might be originating. Something else to discuss in therapy.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 11, 2011 19:53:17 GMT -5
No one has ever argued that she has an obligation. What is being argued is that parents should keep their promises. Had medical expenses, etc. kept Daphne from doing this, I would have been the most sympathetic. Sometimes kids have to see the larger picture like "we could be out on the street if we don't do this."
But to rob your daughter's college fund to buy your dream house?
Sorry, but I don't have the power to excuse that. My permission slips extend to bathroom privileges, missing a homework, and not much more.
Her daughter will have to figure out how to forgive and forget. I bet on the first one because kids want to love their parents, but not the second.
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Plain Old Petunia
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Post by Plain Old Petunia on Feb 11, 2011 19:59:53 GMT -5
You are right -- I'm not handling it well. This has been a really rough week, too. I just miss the sweet girl I raised for 17 years who suddenly decided she didn't want me in her life. I act okay when she's around, so she hasn't really got a clue that I'm as upset as I am. And truth be told, she's so self-absorbed that she probably wouldn't even notice. She moved into her dad's because we wanted her to get a job and have some responsibility. Instead the jackwagon just gives her whatever she wants and she can do whatever she wants. (Heck! If someone were going to pay all my bills and hand me a car, I might go too!) She and her dad will figure out college. That's what she's told me. She's knows the money is gone. He knows the money is gone. I'm sure he'll just send me a "bill" for my half when all is said and done.... {{{{hugs}}}}} Yes, 17 year old girls are OFTEN self-absorbed. Mothers and daughters often have conflicts when daughters hit this stage. It's no fun, but it's very common. Your daughter wanted to get away from her boring mother who has boring rules and go live with her fun dad who lets her do what she wants. It's not the first time a daughter has had that thought. You will all get through this. Honest.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Feb 11, 2011 20:00:40 GMT -5
Her daughter will have to figure out how to forgive and forget. I bet on the first one because kids want to love their parents, but not the second.
Agreed... but what is unusual about that? No one ever really forgets things like this. You can still go on and have a functional relationship, even a good one, if the forgiveness is there. Forgetting is both impossible and unnecessary.
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