whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Feb 11, 2011 12:44:24 GMT -5
Good luck, your OP just sounded really really bad, but it seems you geniunely looking for help and ideas, so I wish you well.
Also, so what if she graduates in June? May be it will be even better, her - not living with your ex and you, hopefully reaching out to her WITHOUT your DH. I don't remember any of your posts about his condition, but whatever they are, it might be better if it was just you and her.
BTW, I can write a book on anger and resentment towards certain family members, but when it comes to children, all bets are off, COMPLETELY different game.
Lena
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 11, 2011 12:46:00 GMT -5
The real problem is that you and your DH consider her child support as family income. You became dependent on it, which is why your ex had to go to court to change the support order. You were still accepting it . . . not for one month, but for three.
That's the only way your daughter could be costing you $25,000 in her decision to move in with her father. Your $600 a month is only $7200 a year. Even at $1100 a month, it is only a little over $13,000.
You call her father some colorful names, which he may deserve. But I would love to hear his side of this same story.
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973beachbum
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Post by 973beachbum on Feb 11, 2011 12:47:31 GMT -5
I'm working on it Lena -- as the time gets shorter (she graduates in June), he's ramped up his attacks and nasty emails. That's why it's so hard to "let it all go". I start to relax and BAM! He strikes again. I will work on the names. But it would help if he wasn't so darn deserving! I guess only time will tell. I am MUCH calmer after three pages of posts than I was at the beginning. Thanks to everyone! OP I am not a laywer but my first thought about this is to print out all of it and save copies of everyone he sends you just in case. It may not help but it can't hurt. And just in case it might be the back up you need.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Feb 11, 2011 12:48:46 GMT -5
And one more thing, if she is living with her father and has good relationship with him (for whatever reason), stop referring to keep by all those names. Again, she is very well aware of that and will resent you for it.
YES. It's a lot more common than you might think for fathers with exes who truly believe they are the Devil Incarnate (and might even have good reason to think so) to have fine or even good relationships with their kids.
And even if that's not the case here, you're not doing yourself any favors by trashing your ex. Most kids wind up having the most respect for the parent who talked the least trash about the other one, even if the other one was truly awful, just because trash-talking isn't the mature thing to do.
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Clifford
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Post by Clifford on Feb 11, 2011 12:49:33 GMT -5
From what I have read lately, $40K wouldn't make a dent in the 4-year tuition for many of the "nice, expensive colleges" that I know of. All emotions and entanglements aside, DD needs to look for a college that is in the collective family's price range. If she goes some place that none of you can afford, and has to drop out, that is something else that she might hold against you for a long time.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Feb 11, 2011 12:52:26 GMT -5
From what I have read lately, $40K wouldn't make a dent in the 4-year tuition for many of the "nice, expensive colleges" that I know of.
Depends. I went to one of those awful private schools everyone bashes and by the time my aid package was factored (a good chunk of it was aid I would not have to pay back) my OOP expense was about $10k.
$40k would have paid a good chunk of my OOP contribution.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Feb 11, 2011 12:54:12 GMT -5
DQ -- I very rarely respond. Or when I do, it's a happy-go-lucky type of response. Never let 'em see you sweat!
I cannot tell you how happy I am to hear this, and I sincerely hope you are being honest with yourself when you say you don't respond. Passive-aggressive email battles are a good way to set the house on fire, emotionally.
Once, my best friend was living with me in New York for a brief time. We had a fight-- nothing serious, just a regular fight (she really is like a sister to me). She happened to tell her mom about it, and the next thing I know she sends me an incredibly nasty email about how I "don't deserve" her or any other friends, I am a terrible person and an emotional abuser, no one in my life loves me (they are all pretending because I am so emotionally controlling that they're scared to tell me what they really think), etc. Really off-the-wall stuff, all because of a little fight.
A few stunts like that and your kid will start to think you are crazy, in addition to having the emotional maturity of a four-year-old. Just a cautionary note.
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973beachbum
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Post by 973beachbum on Feb 11, 2011 12:57:38 GMT -5
Daphne, One thing to consider is that 40K is only 10K a year for the 4 years. You and your DH could come up with some of this as help monthly if you wanted to as help for her to replace what you used. The child support now comes to $13,200 a year with the $1100. The $833 a month is still less than the $1100 you are paying for child support.
Whether you think that is reasonable or not for you to do is your own decision but I wouldn't be suprised if you DD thinks it is. I would bet from what you say that her father will tell her if she hasn't already done the math.
If she thinks you have the money and are choosing not to just because it can lead to resentment. Thant type of resementment can last a long time.
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raeoflyte
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Post by raeoflyte on Feb 11, 2011 12:57:53 GMT -5
Kids are perfectly capable of loving and hating their parents at the same time.I agree, and would add that once they are old enough to understand WHY they hate their parents, a vicious cycle begins. They feel justified in their hatred because their parents did x, y, and z. However, they also feel guilty about hating the people that they love, so they try to overcompensate by complying with some irrational demand from that parent. Complying with such a demand feels ridiculous, so they begin resenting the parent all over again. That resentment makes them remember why they were so angry with the parent to begin with, and also gets the guilties going all over again. Rinse and repeat ad nauseum. It is VERY rare for a kid with a toxic parent to cut them out completely. Kids are simply wired to love their parents and stay in their lives. There's not really an outer limit on how much f'd up stuff you can do to a kid and still have them be around you. However, that does NOT justify the implementation of psychological warfare, mind games, or anything else to get your kid to spend time with you and thus assuage your own feelings of guilt (i.e., "OBVIOUSLY I haven't screwed up my kid beyond belief or they wouldn't still be seeing me"). I love this!
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Feb 11, 2011 12:59:16 GMT -5
Gosh Firebird! I have to be mature about everything as well?? Oh carp. Unfortunately I think you'll be okay though. Really, I can't commend you enough for taking some of this advice to heart-- it can't be easy to hear. Makes me wonder what would have happened if my best friend's mom had come on this message board at some point.
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Cookies Galore
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Post by Cookies Galore on Feb 11, 2011 13:02:47 GMT -5
And even if that's not the case here, you're not doing yourself any favors by trashing your ex. Most kids wind up having the most respect for the parent who talked the least trash about the other one, even if the other one was truly awful, just because trash-talking isn't the mature thing to do. Exactly. My Mom would call my Dad every name in the book when we were growing up. She still does, even though she hasn't even seen or talked to him since my college graduation six years ago. And I have to admit that the older I get, the more I lose respect for her. She has spent her whole life blaming others for her mistakes and it's just really gotten old for me. I hope you aren't using these terms whenever you daughter is/was around.
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973beachbum
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Post by 973beachbum on Feb 11, 2011 13:18:19 GMT -5
Daphne, One thing to consider is that 40K is only 10K a year for the 4 years. You and your DH could come up with some of this as help monthly if you wanted to as help for her to replace what you used. The child support now comes to $13,200 a year with the $1100. The $833 a month is still less than the $1100 you are paying for child support. It's a nice idea, but we're 40 years old and need to get on the fast track to saving for retirement. I can't imagine she's going to put us in a "nice home" right now unless the cash is there to pay for it. And we haven't been able to save anything for retirement for the couple of years. Plus DH's shrink bills fall under our $3000 health insurance deductible. Ouch! I can help with pizza money and maybe books?? I just need to be honest with her about stuff. And not angry. Gosh -- I'm glad I'm not seeing her this weekend right now. I need time to soak it all in.... I completely understand but your teenager probably won't. Not if she is at all typical of that age group. I also think you need to realize that her dad will probably do the math and tell her. It doesn't sound like he has missed any opportunity to "get" back at you yet so do you really think he will let this one pass?
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Feb 11, 2011 13:48:21 GMT -5
It isn't abnormal to have these fears at all. I love DF but he has a myriad of health issues and if he didn't have a lot of money to deal with these issues, there's no way I would marry him and get held responsible for those health bills to the detriment of my own financial health. I'm healthy (so far) and intend to stay that way. I have zero illusions about having to be nurse to an ill (at times) man and I can DO that. What I cannot do is worry about money.
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dividend
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Post by dividend on Feb 11, 2011 13:50:24 GMT -5
Maybe more along the lines of most of these people clearly never had children over the age of 8 to make some of these comments.I know my relationship with my mom is world's better. We fought like cats & dogs when I lived there. We both love each other and don't dislike each other, we are just too much alike to be living under the same roof. I 100% agree with this. I don't have children, but I was a selfish, spoiled, bratty, precocious, rebellious little 17 year old shit. My parents call my high school years "The Black Years." I made my mom cry more times than I care to admit. When I left for college, only 40 minutes away, I moved into my dorm with whatever fit in my beat up CRX because my relationship with my parents was so bad that they just wanted me out. Flash forward 11 years. I've grown and matured, and I have an AMAZING adult relationship with my parents. My friends now tell me that they wish they had the kind of family dynamic that we do. The only time my parents ever admitted to me that I was right about something was when I told them, at 18, that our relationship would be better once I wasn't living under their roof and I was not financially dependent on them. That couldn't be more true. The only time in the intervening years that our relationship has been poor was the 3 months that I briefly moved in with them after a live-in relationship collapsed. So I guess what I'm trying to say to you, Daphne, is that I'm sure things between you and your daughter will get better. My story is not uncommon. So take some comfort in the fact that even though things between you and your darling baby girl seem awful, bleak even, she loves you, and always will. And in a few years, you'll sit with her over margaritas and be able to laugh and cry together about it. Take it from someone who's been there.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Feb 11, 2011 13:52:27 GMT -5
OP, I think you need to find a way (maybe not now but in the future) to return DD's college money. Perhaps after graduation when she is more mature and perhaps wants post graduate school or even as a house downpayment. I have issues with parents who steal from their children and expect them to be okay with it. It wasn't that you took her college fund for something like medical bills or even invested and perhaps lost it but you took it for a house for yourself and your husband. That is just not cool.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Feb 11, 2011 14:03:49 GMT -5
I agree with zib-- paying the money back in some form is a smashing idea. I especially like the idea of a house downpayment. That way, she'll have help with her housing costs while/if she's paying down significant student loan debt.
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973beachbum
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Post by 973beachbum on Feb 11, 2011 14:06:54 GMT -5
OP, I think you need to find a way (maybe not now but in the future) to return DD's college money. Perhaps after graduation when she is more mature and perhaps wants post graduate school or even as a house downpayment. I have issues with parents who steal from their children and expect them to be okay with it. It wasn't that you took her college fund for something like medical bills or even invested and perhaps lost it but you took it for a house for yourself and your husband. That is just not cool. I think this was a case of the mom and her husband saving with their money and telling the child that it was a college fund. If this was an inheritance to the child I would be saying pay the $800 a month for 4 years no matter what. Parents have a right to save for something like children's college and then change their minds. Things come up in life that mandate a change in priorities. The part that makes this tough is that the OP told the DD that it was her college fund. Personally we have some put aside for our kids. But as far as the kids know we will help them but they don't know what or how. The child now looks at that savings that the parents had as "hers". She will never see it any different probably. It is a very tough situation.
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reader79
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Post by reader79 on Feb 11, 2011 14:08:37 GMT -5
So your advice to a couple who have no retirement savings, a $5K EF, health issues, etc. is to save up for a $40K gift for future college graduate? That's nuts.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Feb 11, 2011 14:13:48 GMT -5
So your advice to a couple who have no retirement savings, a $5K EF, health issues, etc. is to save up for a $40K gift for future college graduate? That's nuts. Not right at this very moment, but in the future. It could double as their EF for awhile, if need be. I think this is important. Yes, parents have the right to contribute to college or not but if this matter is what's been driving / intensifying Daphne's daughter's anger toward her mother, I would consider that very reasonable. There's a big difference between: 1) Never saving for your kids' college, making sure that they know they'll need to cover it themselves, 2) Saving steadily for years, but stopping contributions due to other priorities in the family, 3) Saving steadily for years, then raiding the college fund for a legit emergency, like medical bills, and 4) Saving steadily for years, then raiding the college fund to pay for a house. Daphne and Stepdad picked #4, which is VASTLY different from #s 1, 2, and 3. If I were Daphne's daughter, I would be pissed off about that too. I think that making it up to her in some big way is not only a nice gesture, but an important one. Sometimes an apology doesn't cut it. Sometimes relationships can only be repaired by making serious amends for serious wrongdoing.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Feb 11, 2011 14:16:38 GMT -5
Thank you, that was my point. It wasn't an emergency, it was a want. I understand wants but at what a price.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Feb 11, 2011 14:24:32 GMT -5
So there's very little chance that we will be able to save $40K for DD any time in the next decade. I'm not sure we will even have that much extra after all the regular bills. But I'm hoping to put a little aside and maybe have some money for her to go to graduate school. Or towards a house DP if she forgoes grad school. In a perfect world.... (Regardless, I will not tell her the money is there so there will be NO expectation regarding it). If she hates me for not being a bank, the there's not much I can do about that. What's done is done. And I have to live with it. I honestly think the gesture is more important than the money, Daphne. In other words, don't just NOT save for your daughter because you'll never be able to recoup the original sum. Save something, and even if it's only a few thousand, it will cover something important at some point. She'll appreciate it, and it will go a long way toward repairing the damage. It would for me, at least. It would show me tangible proof that my parent understood the fact that they did something bad to me, and they were sorry for it.
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wackyaunt
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Post by wackyaunt on Feb 11, 2011 14:27:01 GMT -5
Just wondering, was the $40k saved from the support that you received until she moved out? If yes, that is very impressive in what sounds like was approximately 10 years.
IMO, you should not speak directly (verbally or written) to her father regarding $. Any college forms regarding your income should be provided to the schools directly (at their request) and not to her father--at all.
You have a court order to pay what you pay and make sure you pay it and pay it on time exactly as ordered. I would not offer either verbally or in writing to pay for any portion of college either to her OR to her father at this time.
$40k over 5 years (the average length of time now for many college degrees) is $8k. That said, once she chooses the college, could you pay the college directly a portion (say $2k-4k) per semester for her education (if you decide to) or to her after proof of completion of the courses (a copy of grades)? This is similar to what companies do that pay for employee education. It keeps the opportunity to start and then withdraw from a class after receiving a cash advance for the class. If your "payment" is always after the grades are received, at graduation you would pay her the last installment of $2-$4k which would be a GREAT beginning a life on her own (apartment) nest egg.
Just an idea.
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973beachbum
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Post by 973beachbum on Feb 11, 2011 14:28:17 GMT -5
So your advice to a couple who have no retirement savings, a $5K EF, health issues, etc. is to save up for a $40K gift for future college graduate? That's nuts. Not right at this very moment, but in the future. It could double as their EF for awhile, if need be. I think this is important. Yes, parents have the right to contribute to college or not but if this matter is what's been driving / intensifying Daphne's daughter's anger toward her mother, I would consider that very reasonable. There's a big difference between: 1) Never saving for your kids' college, making sure that they know they'll need to cover it themselves, 2) Saving steadily for years, but stopping contributions due to other priorities in the family, 3) Saving steadily for years, then raiding the college fund for a legit emergency, like medical bills, and 4) Saving steadily for years, then raiding the college fund to pay for a house. Daphne and Stepdad picked #4, which is VASTLY different from #s 1, 2, and 3. If I were Daphne's daughter, I would be pissed off about that too. I think that making it up to her in some big way is not only a nice gesture, but an important one. Sometimes an apology doesn't cut it. Sometimes relationships can only be repaired by making serious amends for serious wrongdoing. This is why parents should NEVER tell a child that they have a college fund saved up for them! Unless you are independantly wealthy or it is an inheritance from Grand Ma or something. If you are saving your own money for the eventual kids in college just keep it a secret. It will save lots of grief.
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reader79
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Post by reader79 on Feb 11, 2011 14:31:34 GMT -5
I have a feeling that even if they paid her back in cash at some mythical future date where they could reastically afford to, it wouldn't repair the relationship. So, why be out the cash and still have the resentment.
If them paying for the house with that money keeps her from having to support them in retirement then it was well spent. They shouldn't have told her about the fund, that's the lesson that I am learning from this.
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olderburgher
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Post by olderburgher on Feb 11, 2011 14:35:33 GMT -5
I go along with Lena and Shaneandoah. She did not cease to be your daughter by moving in with her Dad. You spent that dough she did not. You are not acting like an adult but a 17 year old. You also seemed to fail to answer the question of whether dad paid child support to you while she lived with you (a period much longer then the time she has lived with him.) She still needs her college education and you still need to pay child support. Pay it and help to the extent you can whether he is a saint or something much less then that.
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wackyaunt
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Post by wackyaunt on Feb 11, 2011 14:38:06 GMT -5
"This is why parents should NEVER tell a child that they have a college fund saved up for them! Unless you are independantly wealthy or it is an inheritance from Grand Ma or something. If you are saving your own money for the eventual kids in college just keep it a secret. It will save lots of grief."
I wholeheartedly agree...this is the best advice on the whole thread.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Feb 11, 2011 14:40:15 GMT -5
Good luck.
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Post by debtheaven on Feb 11, 2011 14:49:10 GMT -5
Daphne I'm curious. If you had 250K out of the 290K, why didn't you take out a loan for 40K?
I have to side with those who said that I think you need to make financial reparations, even if it's for a much smaller amount than the original 40K. And even if you only do it later.
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Feb 11, 2011 14:52:55 GMT -5
Another thing to consider - (and I've never been in a step-parent situation), but I would not be stressing too much "our situation has changed". Even though it's true, from her perspective it might go something like this: 1 - they took away money they promised me and 2 - bc of this stupid step-dad and his mental breakdowns or whatever, my mother still can't do anything for me and 3 - he doesn't even like me. See, where I am going with this?
When "you" apologize, just apologize. I never understood why people include all kinds of explanations in their apology. "I am sorry". That's the only words that apology should have. Not "I am sorry, but our situation has changed", "I am sorry but we thought we would be able to re-save the money". No, not good enough. "I am sorry". That's it. The end
Lena
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Feb 11, 2011 15:00:15 GMT -5
When "you" apologize, just apologize. I never understood why people include all kinds of explanations in their apology. "I am sorry". That's the only words that apology should have. Not "I am sorry, but our situation has changed", "I am sorry but we thought we would be able to re-save the money". No, not good enough. "I am sorry". That's it. The end
Agreed. We were told in counseling that when the word "but" is used after "I am sorry" you are no longer apologizing but seeking justification for what you did.
Apologizing means you know you did wrong.
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