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Post by Deleted on Jun 7, 2012 17:26:44 GMT -5
That's a good clarification to know. I figure that the "Report to Mod" button was for a specific post. Since I have never used it, I am guessing that it allows for you to explain why you think the whole thread should be locked and/or deleted. I just pm'd one of the mods listed as being moderators for this particular sub-forum. As a learning experience, I am going to use the "report" button in a minute. If it accidentally goes through, ignore it. I appreciate knowing the "correct" manner of reporting a thread.
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Jun 7, 2012 18:00:37 GMT -5
Except when no one was flaming to begin with... and I understand that those cases are the exception. Most of the deleted threads have had a lot of flamethrowing in them, but some did not. One of the two threads mentioned in this OP had no flames by the OP's own admission. She wanted it banned for other reasons. She may have said that, but at the very end of the thread she was extremely upset & angry about the direction it had taken. And now she has deleted her account. IMO, a thread started about a deeply personal & perhaps emotional issue should have every right to be deleted by the OP. The Shasta thread bothered me because she tells us goodbye because she needs a break because she felt very picked on & it was taking a toll on her emotionally. But, the thread devolves into exactly what she was trying to avoid. Do we need to continue to tear down posters after they have been so torn down they are leaving? The feel of the board has changed to me recently, although I don't know if it is an actual change or in my head. People seem less friendly & last week I realized that I have gotten snarkier & nastier in many of my posts. After that realization I decided to make an effort to post a lot less & to attempt to be nicer. I know this is a public forum & honesty is appreciated. But, I also use to feel like it was a group of friends that I have known for a long time & could turn to when things are bad. Suddenly it doesn't feel that way to me anymore. IRL no one wants a friend that will go through your entire life & point out every mistake when you are depressed & in a difficult situation & Shasta faced that over & over. There is honesty & then there is rubbing salt in the wound. I know everyone has their buttons, but I'm tired of hearing about how every single mom is stupid because she had kids with a loser. I'm just tired of the threads like doxie's where no matter the question it devolves into why she is an idiot because of X,Y,Z. The board just seems more mean-spirited than before, although I will admit that just might be due to my recent frame of mind. So maybe nothing has changed but me.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Jun 7, 2012 18:12:51 GMT -5
I know this is a public forum & honesty is appreciated. But, I also use to feel like it was a group of friends that I have known for a long time & could turn to when things are bad. Suddenly it doesn't feel that way to me anymore.
Honestly, it totally still feels that way to me and I would *hope* that it's not because I'm "in the clique" or whatever. I've made my share of financial mistakes and I've posted plenty of times about them, and people have always been honest but very kind.
Kari and shanendoah are two examples that immediately spring to mind of people I can always count on to tell me the truth without sugarcoating, but also without ripping me to shreds - and there are plenty of others.
You and I, Angel, have argued about a lot of things - but I still consider you one of my YM buddies. I have a lot of respect for you and very much look forward to our discussions, especially our disagreements.
That being said, I agree that the Shasta thread was getting out of hand. So the question to me is why was she getting that reaction from the same board I count on to NOT kick me when I'm down? And I think there are probably a lot of reasons for that - I personally would get frustrated when people would disagree with the CONTENT of her posts and she would insist that they hated her "for being poor." To some extent, I do feel she was deliberately seeking out negative validation.
But at the same time, I definitely acknowledge that there were some serious issues going on there - including a fragile mental state - and I don't like that she was still being ripped on after she told us she was leaving. A lot of us would feel compelled to have the last word in that situation.
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chiver78
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Post by chiver78 on Jun 7, 2012 18:23:22 GMT -5
That's a good clarification to know. I figure that the "Report to Mod" button was for a specific post. Since I have never used it, I am guessing that it allows for you to explain why you think the whole thread should be locked and/or deleted. I just pm'd one of the mods listed as being moderators for this particular sub-forum. As a learning experience, I am going to use the "report" button in a minute. If it accidentally goes through, ignore it. I appreciate knowing the "correct" manner of reporting a thread. I haven't seen anything come through yet, so I'm guessing you were able to back out okay. yes, that report button is going to report a specific post. I'm sure you've seen by now that there is a comment field. there's quite a bit of space for the person doing the reporting to express why they have reported the particular post. if I were to report a particular thread for removal, I would report the OP and explain that I thought the whole thread needed to go, for X, Y, Z reasons. us mods will use the function to alert the rest of the crew that something bears watching, or as a heads-up that we've pulled something against CoC. basically, it's a non-public page that all of us can see, that all of those reported posts go to. if something is so awful that none of us have stumbled across, this is absolutely the best way to bring it to our collective attention.
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moon/Laura
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Post by moon/Laura on Jun 7, 2012 18:25:35 GMT -5
I too resent the implication that anyone who dares question why a thread was removed is attempting to stir the pot some more. I ask again, do you really want 10 or 20 people PMing six different mods to ask the same question when you can post a quick word of explanation and be done with the matter? I did not say that asking why was an attempt to stir the pot. i said it would ENABLE IT TO HAPPEN. not by everyone, but certainly by some. and there is no need to PM all the mods. you could just pm The J and/or WWBG, as they are this board's moderators, and they will answer the question.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Jun 7, 2012 18:32:30 GMT -5
and there is no need to PM all the mods. you could just pm The J and/or WWBG, as they are this board's moderators, and they will answer the question.
Okay, I'll amend my question - do you really want 10 or 20 people emailing The J and WWBG to ask the same question when one of them can post a quick word of explanation and be done with the matter?
I'm not trying to be snarky; it seems like a fair point. Why should they have to deal with the extra red tape of answering everyone on an individual basis when they can post a thread like this and just resolve it quickly for anyone left wondering?
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The J
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Post by The J on Jun 7, 2012 18:33:26 GMT -5
I too resent the implication that anyone who dares question why a thread was removed is attempting to stir the pot some more. I ask again, do you really want 10 or 20 people PMing six different mods to ask the same question when you can post a quick word of explanation and be done with the matter? I did not say that asking why was an attempt to stir the pot. i said it would ENABLE IT TO HAPPEN. not by everyone, but certainly by some. and there is no need to PM all the mods. you could just pm The J and/or WWBG, as they are this board's moderators, and they will answer the question. I would note that, if you don't hear back from us immediately, don't take it as us ignoring you. I will readily admit that I'm the mod SS contacted. I didn't have a chance to review the thread until today, and then it was removed before I even made it through the second page. So SS -- I apologize for not responding sooner. Sometimes I'm away for a couple of days, or I just don't have time to dig my way through a thread. It's why it's best to use the report to mod feature.
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Post by maryjane on Jun 7, 2012 18:39:20 GMT -5
Except when no one was flaming to begin with... and I understand that those cases are the exception. Most of the deleted threads have had a lot of flamethrowing in them, but some did not. One of the two threads mentioned in this OP had no flames by the OP's own admission. She wanted it banned for other reasons. She may have said that, but at the very end of the thread she was extremely upset & angry about the direction it had taken. And now she has deleted her account. IMO, a thread started about a deeply personal & perhaps emotional issue should have every right to be deleted by the OP. The Shasta thread bothered me because she tells us goodbye because she needs a break because she felt very picked on & it was taking a toll on her emotionally. But, the thread devolves into exactly what she was trying to avoid. Do we need to continue to tear down posters after they have been so torn down they are leaving? The feel of the board has changed to me recently, although I don't know if it is an actual change or in my head. People seem less friendly & last week I realized that I have gotten snarkier & nastier in many of my posts. After that realization I decided to make an effort to post a lot less & to attempt to be nicer. I know this is a public forum & honesty is appreciated. But, I also use to feel like it was a group of friends that I have known for a long time & could turn to when things are bad. Suddenly it doesn't feel that way to me anymore. IRL no one wants a friend that will go through your entire life & point out every mistake when you are depressed & in a difficult situation & Shasta faced that over & over. There is honesty & then there is rubbing salt in the wound. I know everyone has their buttons, but I'm tired of hearing about how every single mom is stupid because she had kids with a loser. I'm just tired of the threads like doxie's where no matter the question it devolves into why she is an idiot because of X,Y,Z. The board just seems more mean-spirited than before, although I will admit that just might be due to my recent frame of mind. So maybe nothing has changed but me. Angel, I haven't been here long, but I can see where you are coming from about a "mean spirited" tenor. The majority of people here are honest and tactful all at the same time. There seems to be a vocal minority that pride themselves in speaking honestly and use that as a defense when people call them out on being tactless. Given their defensiveness about this behavior and their ages, it seems unlikely to change I guess all any of us can do is try to be honest and tactful ourselves.
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moon/Laura
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Post by moon/Laura on Jun 7, 2012 18:49:55 GMT -5
Okay, I'll amend my question - do you really want 10 or 20 people emailing The J and WWBG to ask the same question when one of them can post a quick word of explanation and be done with the matter? I'm not trying to be snarky; it seems like a fair point. Why should they have to deal with the extra red tape of answering everyone on an individual basis when they can post a thread like this and just resolve it quickly for anyone left wondering? i'm not sure that many people would actually send a pm but i really have to wonder why so many feel they're actually entitled to an explanation to begin with? if it's gone, it's for what the moderators feel is a good reason.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Jun 7, 2012 18:50:26 GMT -5
Just want to put this out there as well - those of us who have been around awhile (I realize newbies don't have this luxury) have a certain level of familiarity with the other regular posters here.
Without using names, there is a poster on here from whom I expect coldly logical feedback rather than warm fuzzies, regardless of the issue. There is another poster from whom I expect warm fuzzies even if the person in question is Doxie. Yet another whose witty posts I excitedly anticipate. Another whose responses are almost always colored by his/her childhood experiences. Another who is extremely argumentative. Another who is always looking to walk around all sides of an issue. Another who refuses to issue judgment on anyone ever. Another who has a sharp way with words that can seem cruel.
I'm sure you can all figure out at least some of the people I'm talking about - or if we're not thinking of the same person, we might be thinking of two different people to whom it equally applies. And that's my point. Most of us are familiar with a certain poster's style. We know from whom we can expect compassion, bitterness, misogyny, laughter, and empathy.
So I'd submit that this knowledge gives us a kind of responsibility. That "ignore" button is there for a reason. If you want to post on a sensitive subject and you know Poster X is likely to say something that's going to hurt your feelings, then ignore his/her posts on your thread. Pretty simple. Likewise, if you think a LOT of people are bound to hurt your feelings, consider not posting about something. Or post on an ongoing conversation thread that is bound to be more sympathetic.
That's my two cents, anyway.
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Jun 7, 2012 18:51:42 GMT -5
I know what you mean, and I feel that way sometimes. The last time Shasta left, I seriously considered deleting my account because things had gotten so nasty on here and I didn't like the turn my own attitude was taking. But I didn't, and after a few days, things lightened up and I once again really enjoyed spending time here.
Things have gotten nasty again. And unsurprisingly, it's the same group. It's unfortunate that a handful of negative people can ruin the vibe of a message board with thousands of posters.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Jun 7, 2012 18:58:53 GMT -5
i'm not sure that many people would actually send a pm but i really have to wonder why so many feel they're actually entitled to an explanation to begin with?
I'm trying to stay civil, moonbeam, but your position in these discussions consistently seems to boil down to "members of the board are not entitled to know jack about anything except what the moderators choose to share" and I find that frustrating. It's like you never want us to question you or issue feedback ever, for any reason.
On the one hand, I get it. You guys work your asses off to make this a nice place for all of us, and sometimes you have to make an unpopular decision for the better of the community, and we don't need to know why, we just need to sit down and shut up and be grateful that the community is still here. Granted. And I DO acknowledge that you do a ton of work to keep this place running, and I AM grateful for that, just for the record. I freaking love YM and haven't found another place like it.
But here, you have GIVEN US RECOURSE to find out what happened with a thread that was deleted. "Just PM and ask, we'll tell you." And then you express surprise that people might actually want and feel entitled to utilize that recourse. For example, I can tell you for sure that I will always ask why a thread was deleted, if I was posting on it. Especially if it didn't seem to have anything in particular wrong with it, and especially if I was really invested in it.
YES, I feel "entitled" to raise the question when that happens. And since three or four people PM'd ME this morning asking me why the bunnysmom thread was deleted (like I would know), I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say that I'm probably not the only one who feels "entitled" to ask the question.
I guess my point is, why would you tell us "it's okay to ask in X way" and then turn around and add the basic equivalent of "but probably you shouldn't ask because you don't really deserve to know"? It seems like a mixed message.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 7, 2012 18:59:28 GMT -5
Mods, I would like to take this opportunity to thank you all for all that you do, and tell you that I think you have handled these recent issues with both tact and alacrity.
I'm also using this thread to apologize to Firebird (I was planning on doing it on the other "polite request" thread) because I saw the name of the thread and I (wrongly) assumed that a "locked" thread is just an existing thread that is just locked so nobody can add to it. I figured if somebody needed to lose a thread, a "locked" thread wouldn't help. My bad!
I would also like to add that if a poster changes their nic, and they are in a delicate situation, it might not be a great idea to refer to them by their old nic. In Shasta's case it probably wouldn't matter either way, but in the other deleted thread, it probably would. So it would be good for all of us to refer to Bunnysmom rather than the poster's former nic.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Jun 7, 2012 19:03:14 GMT -5
I (wrongly) assumed that a "locked" thread is an existing thread that is just locked so nobody can add to it. I figured if somebody needed to lose a thread, a "locked" thread wouldn't help. My bad!debthaven, I think that IS what we mean by "locking" a thread... and I agree it does no good if the thread needs to be deleted for security reasons. But why do you need to apologize to me for that?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 7, 2012 19:07:08 GMT -5
FB, because I think you originally posted about wanting the thread to be locked, I responded to that, then you said that you just wanted a "heads up" on why a thread had been deleted.
I admit I skimmed the thread before I posted (which I really try not to do!)
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Peace Of Mind
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Post by Peace Of Mind on Jun 7, 2012 19:07:29 GMT -5
Angel D - I see it too lately. I was just commenting awhile ago how YM was back like it used to be - helpful, interesting and funny - and then it went downhill from there and people started attacking and being cruel. Neither helpful, nor funny. Maybe a little interesting. I don't know how the mods do it... My smite button would be worn out or smashed.
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chiver78
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Post by chiver78 on Jun 7, 2012 19:09:40 GMT -5
I don't know how the mods do it... My smite button would be worn out or smashed. mine would be too, if I had one.
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Peace Of Mind
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Post by Peace Of Mind on Jun 7, 2012 19:12:26 GMT -5
Sorry that I didn't have time to wrap it.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Jun 7, 2012 19:18:23 GMT -5
maryjane, I sent you a PM.
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moon/Laura
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Post by moon/Laura on Jun 7, 2012 19:25:44 GMT -5
I'm trying to stay civil, moonbeam, but your position in these discussions consistently seems to boil down to "members of the board are not entitled to know jack about anything except what the moderators choose to share" and I find that frustrating. It's like you never want us to question you or issue feedback ever, for any reason. firebird.. the fact is, you're NOT entitled to know all the reasons why we make the decisions we do. we weren't on msn either. yes, we do sometimes share our reasoning, but it has always been on a case by case business. it will differ between mods as well. there's also a huge difference between feedback, and just bitching. right now, we're getting into bitching.
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chiver78
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Post by chiver78 on Jun 7, 2012 19:29:27 GMT -5
Sorry that I didn't have time to wrap it. <snort> seriously, though. I just wanted to put it out there that while we do have a bunch of extra buttons for moderator stuff, we don't have smite buttons, either.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Jun 7, 2012 19:34:32 GMT -5
there's also a huge difference between feedback, and just bitching.
right now, we're getting into bitching. Probably time for me to step away then, since I have no idea what you mean by this. Disagreement =/= bitching in my mind. On the threads, I've been making an effort to stay on the constructive side of that line.
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Green Eyed Lady
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Post by Green Eyed Lady on Jun 7, 2012 20:52:27 GMT -5
I understand exactly what you are saying, but I've also observed that it's only a couple of people making it this way. Most people here seem to be helpful and kind. It's sad, that like IRL, one bad potato can make the whole bag stink.
And I also agree. Anybody who attempts to disguise their nastiness as "honesty" isn't fooling anybody but themselves.
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Works4me
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Post by Works4me on Jun 7, 2012 20:55:51 GMT -5
Sorry, but I agree with Firebird on this one - when one is invested in a thread it is hard when it goes poof. A brief locked statement such as "thread removed for safety of OP" or "thread removed upon request of OP" or "Thread removed as it was no longer productive" are easy to post and let people know what happened without giving away too much.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Jun 7, 2012 20:58:39 GMT -5
Or I'd be happy just with "thread removed" so I don't drive myself nuts trying to figure out what I was posting on.
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Green Eyed Lady
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Post by Green Eyed Lady on Jun 7, 2012 21:03:52 GMT -5
If you use your little side bar Virgil created, it's easy to tell without anybody posting a thing. For example? I posted on the "I'm Leaving" thread. It shows that I posted on that thread on my side-bar. If I click on that thread, it takes me to a page where I can see the thread is deleted.
Problem solved! Unless, of course, one feels they need further details. I don't and I don't feel I'm entitled to them.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Jun 7, 2012 23:12:55 GMT -5
Without using names, there is a poster on here from whom I expect coldly logical feedback rather than warm fuzzies, regardless of the issue. That one is me huh? Yet another whose witty posts I excitedly anticipate. No wait, that one is me huh? Well... I don't know if my proclivity towards potty humor really counts as witty... Another whose responses are almost always colored by his/her childhood experiences. Wait, this one is definitely me! Another who is extremely argumentative. Crap... I'm this one. Another who has a sharp way with words that can seem cruel. Or maybe that one.
Huh.... I'm kind of a jerk.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 8, 2012 7:44:15 GMT -5
Another Board I'm on has an ironclad rule that you don't post anything questioning a decision by the Mods to lock or delete a discussion. I thought it was pretty inflexible of them, but now I can see what they're trying to avoid- new threads rehashing the same issues and occasionally getting just as ugly.
I do appreciate being notified that a discussion has been locked or closed, though, and a brief explanation why.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Jun 8, 2012 8:29:14 GMT -5
Another Board I'm on has an ironclad rule that you don't post anything questioning a decision by the Mods to lock or delete a discussion. I thought it was pretty inflexible of them, but now I can see what they're trying to avoid- new threads rehashing the same issues and occasionally getting just as ugly. I do appreciate being notified that a discussion has been locked or closed, though, and a brief explanation why. I would assume that the other board has actual rules in place though. Rules about what is allowed and what isn't (though maybe I'm wrong). The rules of this board seem to change daily, even the communication of the rules. On one hand everyone's posts are their own intellectual property that they have control of, on the other if you post on someone else's thread they have control over having your posts deleted. "Grooming" talk isn't allowed, but if you make a harmless thread name and then devote the thread to sexual innuendo and which posters you'd like to have sex with...that's ok. IMO this board (or any board really) would do much better with a set of rules, even if strictly enforced, than with daily or sometimes hourly contradictory statements about what the rules are. I also think that's what leads to the "bitching". People are told one thing, then in 2 days a completely different rule takes effect but no one is told about it until they create a "wait, what happened to...." thread. At which point we find out the rule is something newly made up and not at all what was communicated before (or what's really happening, which is that people do whatever they feel like, and when questioned make up a new rule to justify their changing actions). I think there's a mix of threads about locked/deleted threads. Some are definitely to simply rehash the removed/locked thread, but a good number seem to be more in the strain of "Could someone please explain what the heck the rules are today?".
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Jun 8, 2012 8:35:19 GMT -5
Hoops, qwitcherbitchin.
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