Firebird
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Post by Firebird on May 16, 2011 15:01:45 GMT -5
This logic needs to be refined. It is much more accurate to say that you shouldn't ask someone to do something for you unless you are willing to do something equally significant for them. Sometimes a direct equivalent does not exist, in which case some currency conversion is necessary.
But a straight up "tit for tat" is such a juvenile mentality, it makes me think more of kids arguing on the playground. Certainly not a trait I'd want in a spouse.
Agreed, that's why I'm not demanding that he do the same thing for me. Maybe someday he'll remember this and do something for me he thinks is a little unfair. But I'm not keeping score unless it starts to look like I'm the only one ever making concessions (unlikely with my DF, he's a giver).
So while yes, I would expect him to "change his own name" so to speak, I would expect that in principle (by which I mean, I'm not changing my name just so he'll "owe" me - there's nothing I expect in return except the same general willingness to do something that's really important to me). Being in a partnership means that you put the other person first. If something is really important to DF, I'm going to do everything in my power to make sure it happens regardless of whose turn it is to do the other a favor. And he feels the same way. I really would not want to be with someone who was constantly throwing "Well, I did x for you and it's your turn to do y for me" in my face.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on May 16, 2011 15:03:03 GMT -5
It was fighting words for sure because I didn't like the implication that my family ceases to exist the moment I get married and I am absorbed blob like into his.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on May 16, 2011 15:03:14 GMT -5
"I disagree with this (shocker, huh?). I honestly can't remember the last thing I asked of DF that I wasn't willing to do myself. And I bought my own engagement ring (at least, we put it on my credit card - kind of a moot point since our finances are now merged). It cost less than $300 and I adore it. "
You disagree that it's still the general expectation in society? Or just that it's not true for you?
I think there's a lot of couples out there for who the long-standing societal traditions don't hold true. But I can imagine the frustration when one party wants to pick and choose which traditions they want to follow which benefit them. (and in the case of engagement ring/name changing specifically I'm sure it seems like "ok, I got what i wanted out of tradition, now if he wants tradition I'm going to paint it as some kind of sexist way to keep women down".)
I don't necessarily begrudge people from saying "i don't want to do it that way". But I do hold it against people who are of the mindset "well he's gotta do xyz because those are traditions and that's just what men do"...but then try to get out of "what women do" by claiming traditions are sexist, etc.
I didn't give my gf an engagement ring, she wanted other jewelry, that's fine. She's taking my name, but I don't really care if she does. But I think I would have an issue with it if she'd "demanded" a ring because "it's tradition"...and then said "I'm not taking your name though because I'm strong and independent enough to buck tradition".
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 16, 2011 15:06:22 GMT -5
We argued because he was of the mindset that I needed to give up my last name because now I was a part of HIS family, not mine anymore. Those ended up being fighting words. Yeah, that would have been fighting words for me, too. And I agree with your thinking on DD- exactly the reason DS has his father's last name.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on May 16, 2011 15:06:24 GMT -5
We argued because he was of the mindset that I needed to give up my last name because now I was a part of HIS family, not mine anymore. Those ended up being fighting words.
Uh... yeah... I have to say that if THIS had been DF's argument, I wouldn't have given in nearly so easily. I don't see changing my name as giving up my family at all, symbolically or otherwise. It's a statement of our union but in no way denies my own family connections.
I think I would have given the ring back if he tried to insist that I wasn't part of my own family anymore and THAT'S why I needed to change my name. Yikes.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on May 16, 2011 15:07:29 GMT -5
"We argued because he was of the mindset that I needed to give up my last name because now I was a part of HIS family, not mine anymore. Those ended up being fighting words."
Ok but the entire idea behind the engagement ring is that he can prove he can support you when he takes you away from your family to join his. It's basically the exact same archaic theory that you're angry with about the name change reasoning. I just don't see many women saying "no, I refuse to accept an engagement ring because of it's connotations about ownership". I guess I don't see how people can so willingly accept one archaic gesture and then be so offended by another archaic gesture which rests upon the same exact premise. It feels as if women have chosen to ignore what one means because they like what they get out of it kind of.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on May 16, 2011 15:08:05 GMT -5
Eh, Loop kept her last name and I honestly don't really care or think about it much. The kids have my last name, and I honestly don't remember much discussion or disagreement about that, I think we both assumed they would the whole time. It works for us.
Of course, I also bought her an engagement ring months after our wedding, and I spent a LOT less than 3 months salary. Neither of us are real big on tradition for it's own sake I guess.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on May 16, 2011 15:09:44 GMT -5
You disagree that it's still the general expectation in society? Or just that it's not true for you?
Eh... kind of both. It's definitely not factually true of me, and it's also not factually true for a number of my friends. So I don't know that I agree that it's a trend. Apparently you and I run in different circles, though, which may be part of it. Among my friends, we just don't think this way.
But I've read articles and heard girls talking in a way that suggests there may be something to what you're saying. So I don't know. Maybe it is a trend, and I just personally avoid hanging out with people who think that way.
I didn't give my gf an engagement ring, she wanted other jewelry, that's fine. She's taking my name, but I don't really care if she does. But I think I would have an issue with it if she'd "demanded" a ring because "it's tradition"...and then said "I'm not taking your name though because I'm strong and independent enough to buck tradition".
As I've noted, the equivalent of this statement from DF would have been a big problem for me too. So I do see what you're saying.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on May 16, 2011 15:11:59 GMT -5
"Eh... kind of both. It's definitely not factually true of me, and it's also not factually true for a number of my friends. So I don't know that I agree that it's a trend. Apparently you and I run in different circles, though, which may be part of it. Among my friends, we just don't think this way. "
I don't think it has anything to do with circles. I didn't realize there would be any argument at all to the idea that as a social generality women for the most part expect engagement rings.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on May 16, 2011 15:11:59 GMT -5
just don't see many women saying "no, I refuse to accept an engagement ring because of it's connotations about ownership". Heh, I gave it back to him because he said the same thing. So I took it off and said "There, there goes that argument". I currently wear it because he gave it back to me. Neither of us liked the idea of picking a totally new last name and he wasn't going to give up his name for the same reasons I didn't want to give up mine. Hypenating was something we could both live with and I don't go crazy correcting people if they cal me "Mrs DH's last name". So that helped make it more palatable to him.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on May 16, 2011 15:14:11 GMT -5
Ok but the entire idea behind the engagement ring is that he can prove he can support you when he takes you away from your family to join his. It's basically the exact same archaic theory that you're angry with about the name change reasoning. I just don't see many women saying "no, I refuse to accept an engagement ring because of it's connotations about ownership". I guess I don't see how people can so willingly accept one archaic gesture and then be so offended by another archaic gesture which rests upon the same exact premise. It feels as if women have chosen to ignore what one means because they like what they get out of it kind of.
That's an interesting thing to say considering you have been talking about how all the traditions are changing.
No one I know sees either tradition as having connotations of ownership anymore. I bought my own engagement ring, so how could it be a symbol of DF's ownership of me? And the name thing - as I said, I see a couple having the same last name (whatever it might be) as a symbol of their union, not as a big signpost to the world that the lady belongs to a different family now.
Symbols have meaning, but those meanings can and do change with time. And a lot of it is what it means for that specific person. Like I said, if DF's reasoning HAD been that I should take his name because I wasn't part of my own family anymore, I'd have fought it much harder. That's not his reasoning, nor is it mine, so that's simply not why I'm doing it and not the message I'm sending to the rest of the world by doing it.
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cme1201
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Post by cme1201 on May 16, 2011 15:15:08 GMT -5
Oh, I also know a couple (straight) who made up their own last name to both take. Neither of them had much attachment to their names or their parents, so they picked one they liked and went with it. I almost did this. I have my fathers last name, he was never a part of my life, so when we were getting married we looked at trying a combo of both our last names. Just before the wedding (3 days before), my grandfather (mothers father) and I had a long talk, I was the only male child with the family last name, so he said I had 2 choices I could carry it on or let it die much like the town the name originated from did. My wife and I choose to keep it and allow it to live on.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on May 16, 2011 15:15:34 GMT -5
I don't think it has anything to do with circles. I didn't realize there would be any argument at all to the idea that as a social generality women for the most part expect engagement rings.
Oh, I didn't realize we were talking about engagement rings. I thought we were talking about the concept of partnership meaning that you are willing to give up significant things if you ask your partner to give up other significant things.
I agree that most women expect engagement rings.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on May 16, 2011 15:16:47 GMT -5
so that's simply not why I'm doing it and not the message I'm sending to the rest of the world by doing it. Actually that is the message you're sending, to certain people. It may not be the message you're intending to send, but it's up to each receiver to interpret the message and sometimes they screw it up.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on May 16, 2011 15:18:10 GMT -5
I didn't realize there would be any argument at all to the idea that as a social generality women for the most part expect engagement rings.Shoot my bad, I didn't read that right either. I'd agree most women want an engagement ring. I'd also add on they want a NEW one. Mine is technically a used ring and I get all sorts of flack for not insisting DH buy me a brand new right that was "just mine". Why? This one was pretty much free (just had to be resized) and is a pretty decent sized rock. What was I supposed to demand exactly?
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on May 16, 2011 15:19:52 GMT -5
"Heh, I gave it back to him because he said the same thing. So I took it off and said "There, there goes that argument". "
Right, but you accepted it and all if it's historical connotations until it came time to make your own gesture following historical traditions. The ring and all of it's historical connotations in the context of tradition didn't bother you one bit as long as you weren't confronted with it's actual meaning. That's how I can see guys being annoyed, you essentially "get yours" first...then later on in the same kind of ownership connotations you decide whether you want to "back out" of the deal so to speak. (I do agree you can kind of ignore that argument if you weren't the type to be expecting an engagement ring based on "tradition". I think those who refuse engagement rings are in the small minority though).
There's a significant difference between not having an engagement ring at all...and accepting it happily until he says something you don't like and doing the whole dance of "here's your ring back, I don't want it anymore but there's not much you can do with it since it's now worth 1/2 of what you paid for it".
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on May 16, 2011 15:21:22 GMT -5
Actually that is the message you're sending, to certain people. It may not be the message you're intending to send, but it's up to receiver to interpret the message and sometimes they screw it up.
Yeah, I thought of this after I posted. I guess I just don't really care what other people think of my decisions - I know myself, and I know why I do certain things, and frankly I could care less if other people "get it." Someone thinks I'm taking DF's name because I'm turning over my own family for his? Fine, whatever. I know that's not why I'm doing it, he knows it's not why I'm doing it, and that's really all that matters.
Let's say I'm Dox and I decide to sell Herbie because I have seen the light and decided that it's not as important as keeping my family finances above water. And someone on YM suggests that I got rid of Herbie because I had a nightmare about him and he doesn't give me that special feeling anymore (i.e., he's no longer my sacred cow) so it's okay that I got rid of him. I wouldn't care - because I would know why I got rid of him. I might set the person straight but I wouldn't lose sleep over the fact that they misinterpreted my motives on getting rid of him.
Not a great analogy but I only got a couple of hours sleep last night and I'm pretty out of it.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on May 16, 2011 15:22:23 GMT -5
Why? This one was pretty much free (just had to be resized) and is a pretty decent sized rock. What was I supposed to demand exactly? DQ, you are a lady after my own heart
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on May 16, 2011 15:24:21 GMT -5
I guess I just don't really care what other people think of my decisions - I know myself, and I know why I do certain things, and frankly I could care less if other people "get it." Now you just need to hold onto that attitude if you have children. I never truly understood the phrase "everyone's a critic" until I had kids and complete strangers started giving me unasked for parenting advice.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on May 16, 2011 15:24:55 GMT -5
I get what you are saying Hoops and do agree with you. For me though it wasn't so much about how DH would "own" me if I took his name but the implication that now my family didn't matter anymore, it was HIS that mattered. He wouldn't change his name because "it's important to have my family's name". I can totally respect that. But when I said the same thing, that was dismissed because I am the female. I was supposed to leave my family and cling unto him by taking his last name. That is what irritated my and then we degenerated into the whole traditions argument which resulted in my throwing the ring at him and ended up going to separate corners. Orginally though it wasn't about that, it was about what I felt was a total dismissal of the importance of my family, it was like they were just keeping me on ice till DH came along to bring me into my true family.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on May 16, 2011 15:25:04 GMT -5
I must have missed something. How does accepting a gift require you to change your last name?
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on May 16, 2011 15:27:43 GMT -5
How does accepting a gift require you to change your last name? It's not just a gift. It's an obligation that the man has to meet, according to tradition, to prove he's capable of supporting you. The women then takes his last name to show that his family is now responsible for her. The two traditions are somewhat linked. So continuing one (demanding an expensive ring) while shunning the other doesn't make a lot of sense.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on May 16, 2011 15:33:33 GMT -5
Continuing one and shunning the other out of PRINCIPLE doesn't make a lot of sense and would justifiably upset a lot of people (i.e., "we'll stick with the ring tradition because I want a pretty ring that I don't have to pay for but I don't want to take your name because I'm independent").
But if you've agreed amongst yourselves that the traditions don't mean to you what they mean "traditionally," then shunning one while honoring the other can make perfect sense.
By your logic, having paid for my own engagement ring, I'd be perfectly within my rights to refuse to change my name because the traditions are linked. But while we're shunning the one tradition (guy pays for ring), we're honoring the second (I'm changing my name) because one has nothing to do with the other.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on May 16, 2011 15:35:33 GMT -5
"That's an interesting thing to say considering you have been talking about how all the traditions are changing. "
Changing yes. The majority? No. Though I think part of that hits the nail right on the head. People want to "change traditions" (or at least change what they perceive the meaning behidn the tradition to be) only to the extent it benefits them.
"And the name thing - as I said, I see a couple having the same last name (whatever it might be) as a symbol of their union, not as a big signpost to the world that the lady belongs to a different family now. "
I can see being upset by the phrasing.
"I agree that most women expect engagement rings. "
And I think most men expect the woman to take their name. That doesn't mean she HAS to obviously. But I can see how guys would be upset at the view that after the woman has what "she expects", she now no longer wants to give him what "he expects".
"No one I know sees either tradition as having connotations of ownership anymore. I bought my own engagement ring, so how could it be a symbol of DF's ownership of me?"
I think that's fine, you've set the precedent up front that "tradition" isn't the important part. Each of you working out each issue within your relationship is. The problem comes when it's "well we have to follow tradition...right up until tradition dictates I do something I don't feel like doing...but by then I'll have gotten the part of the tradition that I wanted out of it".
I'll give a non-ring/name change related example. My fiancee and I aren't really traditional. I didn't give her an engagement ring, we're not getting married in a church, we're just kind of doing what we want to do. At one point though when I didn't want to wear an annoying tux and wanted to wear sneakers it was "you can't do that, you're supposed to wear a tux, that's tradition". My point is, you don't get to pick and choose to use "tradition" as an argument hwen you're perfectly willing to forego tradition when it doesn't suit you. There are plenty of argument she could make to tell me to wear a tux..."it's tradition" isn't one of them.
Likewise if women continue to "expect" an engagement ring...I don't see any reason men can't continue to "expect" that women are going to change their names. Both traditions. If you've made it clear throughout the relationship that you're not traditional, that's fine. But you dont' get to egg on the tradition thing to get what you want, then stop it when you no longer feel it benefits your interests and not expect the other person to be upset at least. (though I understand some of the idea of being upset about WHY that person wants you to).
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on May 16, 2011 15:35:38 GMT -5
Exactly!
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on May 16, 2011 15:35:50 GMT -5
I would guess that most men arent' giving a ring to prove capability of financial means. Some might do it to show off - but I don't think anyone actually connects the two anymore. Do they?
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on May 16, 2011 15:36:09 GMT -5
I would guess that most men arent' giving a ring to prove capability of financial means. Some might do it to show off - but I don't think anyone actually connects the two anymore. Do they?
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on May 16, 2011 15:38:02 GMT -5
Likewise if women continue to "expect" an engagement ring...I don't see any reason men can't continue to "expect" that women are going to change their names. Both traditions. If you've made it clear throughout the relationship that you're not traditional, that's fine. But you dont' get to egg on the tradition thing to get what you want, then stop it when you no longer feel it benefits your interests and not expect the other person to be upset at least. (though I understand some of the idea of being upset about WHY that person wants you to).
Agreed. General expectations are fine, as long as you inform your partner well in advance if you deviate from tradition in one of your beliefs.
That's why I'm really hoping WWBG and his DF can work out what to do with the kids' names before they come along...
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on May 16, 2011 15:41:52 GMT -5
"For me though it wasn't so much about how DH would "own" me if I took his name but the implication that now my family didn't matter anymore, it was HIS that mattered."
I guess I took that differently. I would read "you are part of HIS family" now...as meaning less you joining his extended family, and more of the traditional "you 2 are a family, he's the man as 'head' of it".
"By your logic, having paid for my own engagement ring, I'd be perfectly within my rights to refuse to change my name because the traditions are linked"
My logic would say that you've bucked "tradition" and it's fair that you both expect that you'll be deciding what actions to take on each issue independently. It's not even that you can't accept an engagement ring he bought for you and then not take his name...you just can't hang your proverbial hat on "it's tradition" up to the point it stops benefitting you. I wouldn't expect a lot of that from the women on YM, as they seem fairly unconventional...but I do think plenty of people have those "it's tradition" expectations until tradition means doing something they're prefer not to.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on May 16, 2011 15:42:17 GMT -5
I would guess that most men arent' giving a ring to prove capability of financial means. Some might do it to show off - but I don't think anyone actually connects the two anymore. Do they? No, they probably do it because she expects one.
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