Firebird
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Post by Firebird on May 16, 2011 15:42:57 GMT -5
I would guess that most men arent' giving a ring to prove capability of financial means. Some might do it to show off - but I don't think anyone actually connects the two anymore. Do they? I think a lot of women who insist on rings of a certain size or caliber want it because it proves their men love them enough to sacrifice for them or something. Unless they're really rich, and then it just proves that they managed to bag a really rich guy.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on May 16, 2011 15:45:53 GMT -5
I wouldn't expect a lot of that from the women on YM, as they seem fairly unconventional...
Changing negative female stereotypes, one post at a time... ;D
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on May 16, 2011 15:46:08 GMT -5
Mine ring was used, it was given back to him by another chick. How do used rings fit into this subject?
I think a lot of women who insist on rings of a certain size or caliber want it because it proves their men love them enough to sacrifice for them or somethingBingo, I had a girl pretty much say those exact words to my face when I let slip my ring was used. The guys thought it was awesome I didn't expect him to run out and buy me a brand new ring. To her not only should he have bought me a NEW ring, but a bigger diamond too. Lady this diamond is 1.5 carats, we're getting into stupid big after a certain point.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on May 16, 2011 15:47:23 GMT -5
Mine ring was used, it was given back to him by another chick.
If at first you don't succeed...? ;D
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on May 16, 2011 15:48:53 GMT -5
If at first you don't succeed? I was thinking that we are really frugal and by proxy we appreciate our marriage more and understand it's true meaning. Oh wait .. we had a wedding. .. I suppose that cancels out the used ring.
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msgumby
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Post by msgumby on May 16, 2011 15:49:08 GMT -5
I agree that both changing last names and buying engagement rings have connotations of ownership, but in each individual relationship the dynamics of that couple determine the real significance of it. The reasons I didn't want an engagement ring were impacted by my desire not to be "bought" into the relationship and the implied traditions of an engagement ring, but were also impacted by the fact that I dislike diamonds and jewelry in general and decided one ring was enough. I didn't want to wear a ring saying I was "taken" until we both were wearing rings saying we were taken - together. I also really dislike the diamond industry and didn't want to be any part of supporting it. I also disagreed with the tradition of taking a husbands last name. However, because I did want a joint last name, and couldn't come up with a better idea, we decided it was the best decision for us. My husband also thought it was important we had a joint last name, but didn't push his last name onto me. I also knew in the context of our marriage, neither one of those traditions would imply any form of ownership or submission because that wasn't how our relationship worked.
Now if my husband had said that I was going to be part of his family and not mine as his reason for wanting me to take his last name, that would cause me to seriously doubt if I wanted a future with this person. Maybe the quote is out of context or something, but I can't imagine my husband saying anything remotely like that - and it's hard for me to picture how I would react to it - but I know it would result in me being quite pissed.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on May 16, 2011 15:50:55 GMT -5
The guys thought it was awesome I didn't expect him to run out and buy me a brand new ring.
Usually guys don't even believe me when I say that I didn't want or care about a big ring (outside YM, the fact that I paid for the ring is pretty much a secret - I don't want to make anyone's head explode).
It always amuses me - if a ring was something I cared about, believe me, I wouldn't hide that fact! I'm not shy about things that matter to me. And I think to a certain point, it's okay for a ring to be important to a woman. To me, the point where it segues into "this is totally unreasonable" is when women expect guys to abide by the 3-month-salary rule or they NEED a certain size diamond that he can't comfortably afford.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on May 16, 2011 15:50:55 GMT -5
I would guess that most men arent' giving a ring to prove capability of financial means. Some might do it to show off - but I don't think anyone actually connects the two anymore. Do they? I dont' think they actually connect it in a direct way. I DO think it all kind of falls under the "getting married" tradition though. The point is it's kind of inherently disingenous to take 2 traditions which are directly connected in that way with roughly the same historical connotations and decide that #1 is expected because you get a nice shiny ring out of it..but #2 with the same connotation is now up for grabs because you might not get much out of it. The change has been that the ring is now "a symbol of his love for you"...but when it's time for the woman to give something up, no one claims that's the case do they? Does anyone claim that because she didn't change her name she must not love him? The one that benefits one side has now taken on the "if he loves you, he'll do this" symbolism...while the benefit to the other side has taken on more of a pragmatic approach. Neither one means anything at all to me personally, I can just see how people might be upset when their partner puts so much emphasis on one that benefits them, but not the other.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on May 16, 2011 15:52:12 GMT -5
Oh wait .. we had a wedding. .. I suppose that cancels out the used ring.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on May 16, 2011 15:54:08 GMT -5
"I think a lot of women who insist on rings of a certain size or caliber want it because it proves their men love them enough to sacrifice for them or something."
I agree. I just think it's interesting that this symbol has become about "how much do you love me". While the name change where the woman essentially sacrifices has become more about "what would be practical" than their own expression of love/sacrifice.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on May 16, 2011 15:59:12 GMT -5
Now if my husband had said that I was going to be part of his family and not mine as his reason for wanting me to take his last name, that would cause me to seriously doubt if I wanted a future with this person. Maybe the quote is out of context or something, but I can't imagine my husband saying anything remotely like that - and it's hard for me to picture how I would react to it - but I know it would result in me being quite pissed.He royally inserted his foot into his mouth on that one. I get where he was going after the heat died down, but he got himself into some really hot water that he had to kiss ass to get out of. Hoops diamond engagement rings actually have always been about "love". DeBeers marketed diamond rings as symbols of engagement and devotion in order to sell more diamonds. They are also the ones that came up with the "tradition' that hte ring must cost 2-3 months of your salary. Before that in general something was brought to the table by both parties like land in exchange for polictical clout, money in exchange for protection against common enemies. Stuff like that. You can't do much with a diamond ring. Marriage has been a quid pro quo thing for a lot longer than it's been for "love". Changing names also had to do with politics. You didn't want your new wife having any ties to her old family in case they decided to shaft you and reneg on their part of the deal. So you took away and replaced everything that had to do with her family with your own so she'd only have political ties to you. It's really interesting to read about it, most people in history would laugh their asses off at us discussing marrying for "love". Does anyone claim that because she didn't change her name she must not love him? Yes, they do. Which is why I do not go out of my way to correct anyone if they mistake my last name. I did it ONCE and recieved a pretty intense interrogation about my reasonings.
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moneymaven
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Post by moneymaven on May 16, 2011 16:03:27 GMT -5
Now you just need to hold onto that attitude if you have children. I never truly understood the phrase "everyone's a critic" until I had kids and complete strangers started giving me unasked for parenting advice. Don't even get me started.
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8 Bit WWBG
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Post by 8 Bit WWBG on May 16, 2011 16:07:34 GMT -5
...:::"Fight? DH and I have been married for 8 years, together for 14. We've never had a fight, maybe because our values on the major issues are so similar and we're just too darn mellow to get excited over the rest of it.":::...
Well obviously I didn't mean YOU, because your marriage is perfect.
...:::"I feel like that would be pretty important to decide in advance...":::...
An agreement is MEANINGLESS until the point of need has passed and all parties upheld their ends. Otherwise she'll just tout out the old "well that was years ago and things are different now" copout.
...:::"but I would have lost my mind if DH used this argument to convince me.":::...
I think some women are more concerned with having something to argue over. Of course then again I'm of the experience that "its important to me" is as worthless as "I'll agree to <x> in the future".
...:::"It's the thought that counts.":::...
As long as the thought cost enough.
...:::"Being in a partnership means that you put the other person first.":::...
No, that is being a SUCKER. A healthy romantic relationship is putting someone first who ALSO puts you first.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on May 16, 2011 16:09:35 GMT -5
"...:::"Being in a partnership means that you put the other person first.":::...
No, that is being a SUCKER. A healthy romantic relationship is putting someone first who ALSO puts you first. "
If you really loved her you'd step up and be a man and give her whatever she wants, then you'd send her to the spa for a mani/pedi while you sit at home in the dark and think about what you could do to make her life better!
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msgumby
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Post by msgumby on May 16, 2011 16:10:13 GMT -5
I think that plenty of women also view the fancy ring as a status symbol (like their shiny new car) and not just as how much their men love them. I also think a large amount of the expensive diamond ring tradition is a ploy by the diamond industry to sell more diamonds. I think society/diamond industry/media has pushed the mentality that men have to spend money on the ring (and the women are buying into it happily) - but personally, the whole idea doesn't appeal to me. I don't think it's just the fault of women for agreeing to it (it's easy to want an expensive, shiny new toy when society tells you to want it), but I do think the women buying into it are also likely to be of the kind to want shiny, expensive lifestyles in addition to the ring.
Most of the women I interact with were excited if the engagement ring "fit their personality" more than they were excited about the cost. If the man picked something out that they would have picked out themselves, that was what meant the man loved them enough. I personally was happy my husband didn't waste any of our money on a ring. That either means he is lazy or knows me well (or both).
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Mardi Gras Audrey
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Post by Mardi Gras Audrey on May 16, 2011 16:10:33 GMT -5
[ Does anyone claim that because she didn't change her name she must not love him? Yes, they do. Which is why I do not go out of my way to correct anyone if they mistake my last name. I did it ONCE and recieved a pretty intense interrogation about my reasonings. WOW Is it just me or do people seem to be getting ruder and ruder? Why anyone would think that your reasoning is any of their business is beyond me... It always amazes me how rude people can be... The sad part is that not only are they rude but they are also totally oblivious to how rude they are...
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Mardi Gras Audrey
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Post by Mardi Gras Audrey on May 16, 2011 16:11:09 GMT -5
"...:::"Being in a partnership means that you put the other person first.":::... No, that is being a SUCKER. A healthy romantic relationship is putting someone first who ALSO puts you first. " If you really loved her you'd step up and be a man and give her whatever she wants, then you'd send her to the spa for a mani/pedi while you sit at home in the dark and think about what you could do to make her life better! That sounds great... where can I find that man? ;D
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on May 16, 2011 16:12:39 GMT -5
A healthy romantic relationship is something I have apparently never experienced based on my posts. Fixed for you.
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8 Bit WWBG
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Post by 8 Bit WWBG on May 16, 2011 16:15:30 GMT -5
...:::"To her not only should he have bought me a NEW ring, but a bigger diamond too.":::...
Yeah, this describes most of the women I know who are with guys that have been married before. "The ex got <x> so I want at LEAST 1.5<x>". The only exception *gasp* learned from her own divorce how materialism sank their partnership, and learned to be happy about feelings not things.
...:::"has become about "how much do you love me".":::...
But a man trying to use the same logic to get something HE wants... oh no no NO, love doesn't work like that.
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sarcasticgirl
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Post by sarcasticgirl on May 16, 2011 16:30:50 GMT -5
"I agree with the sentiment, but lets not pretend that women aren't every bit as guilty with the "do as i say, not as i do" aspect. Engagement rings being the most obvious and blatant example. If it's ok for women to say "if you love me, then show it by doing this"...then it's ok for men to do the same with names."
Sorry, you'll never catch me sayin it's okay for women to act like that. Those women are selfish and horrible. I certainly didn't ever say anything like that to DH.
I try to live by this sentiment... but that's just the kind of person i am
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on May 16, 2011 16:32:31 GMT -5
No, that is being a SUCKER. A healthy romantic relationship is putting someone first who ALSO puts you first.
That's what I meant. You both put the other person first. I didn't say it very clearly but that's precisely what I meant.
As long as the thought cost enough.
Bwah? Was that directed at me? DF didn't care how much his ring cost. And he likes the way it looks, it's just too heavy and bulky to wear on a regular basis and also the wrong size. I'd have it resized if he wanted to wear it but he doesn't. He's fine with just the wedding ring, and I'll make sure that one is the right style, right color, right weight, right size the first time.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on May 16, 2011 16:35:32 GMT -5
I think that plenty of women also view the fancy ring as a status symbol (like their shiny new car) and not just as how much their men love them.
*Warning: I am about to make a very generalized and judgmental speculation*
I'd guess that the kind of woman that views the ring itself as a status symbol is also the kind of woman that views the relationship as a status symbol. "I'm much cooler than you are because I managed to find a man and LOOK AT HOW GREAT HE IS" kind of thing.
That drives me crazy.
It's just a speculation and it's not very nice. But I honestly can't find a charitable way to view someone who sees an ENGAGEMENT RING as some kind of accomplishment.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on May 16, 2011 16:38:13 GMT -5
An agreement is MEANINGLESS until the point of need has passed and all parties upheld their ends. Otherwise she'll just tout out the old "well that was years ago and things are different now" copout.
Wait, you mean you guys can agree on this in advance and you don't think she'll keep her word when the time comes?
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on May 16, 2011 16:41:57 GMT -5
"But I honestly can't find a charitable way to view someone who sees an ENGAGEMENT RING as some kind of accomplishment. "
I'm really not intending to be mean, but I can't see how anyone can wear an engagement ring and NOT see it as that. It's certainly not a "symbol of love" as women like to think of it. Love is not "look honey, I got you a piece of metal with a shiny stone in it like all the other women have". It's certainly not a symbol of "I'm off the market" or else you'd be wearing it the moment you were exclusive. It's not a symbol of marriage since it's pre-wedding. If you don't like the "status symbol" of it, how do you justify it? I mean not all women are as catty about it, but isn't "status symbol" about the most accurate way to describe it?
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on May 16, 2011 16:43:38 GMT -5
Well, okay, I guess it's a "status symbol" in the strictest sense of the term, i.e. it's a SYMBOL of your STATUS that you are engaged.
But that's not what I meant. I meant status symbol in the more colloquial sense, i.e. a possession that signifies a certain level of financial success, like a Porsche. Something that you show off to prove how awesome you are.
My engagement ring is something I look at and feel happy about because it means that DF and I are going to get married soon. It is categorically NOT meant to prove anything to anyone.
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sarcasticgirl
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Post by sarcasticgirl on May 16, 2011 16:46:34 GMT -5
...:::"For the men: you shouldn't ask someone to do something for you that you wouldn't be willing to do yourself. My guess is that most of you certainly wouldn't change yours for your wife so don't demand that they do.":::... This logic needs to be refined. It is much more accurate to say that you shouldn't ask someone to do something for you unless you are willing to do something equally significant for them. Sometimes a direct equivalent does not exist, in which case some currency conversion is necessary. But a straight up "tit for tat" is such a juvenile mentality, it makes me think more of kids arguing on the playground. Certainly not a trait I'd want in a spouse. I think you're misunderstanding my logic. I was in no way referencing tit for tat. I do not mean that because i do something for DH he must do something back for me. I'm not even sure where you got that. That's just silly.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on May 16, 2011 16:48:17 GMT -5
Well, okay, I guess it's a "status symbol" in the strictest sense of the term, i.e. it's a SYMBOL of your STATUS that you are engaged. But that's not what I meant. I meant status symbol in the more colloquial sense, i.e. a possession that signifies a certain level of financial success, like a Porsche. Something that you show off to prove how awesome you are. No I'm not using it as a "engagement status". I'm using it the same way you are. Not so much in the financial success...but isn't it basically "look at me, I'm attractive enough I found a man and he loves me so much he gave me this shiny hunk of metal to prove it"? It's not financial success per se, but it's "look how good I am at landing a man". What other symbolism is there for it really? It's no different than guys who drive flashy cars, you can say it means anything you want, but really the answer is "it's so you'll look at me and think about how awesome I am".
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sarcasticgirl
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Post by sarcasticgirl on May 16, 2011 16:55:59 GMT -5
"But I honestly can't find a charitable way to view someone who sees an ENGAGEMENT RING as some kind of accomplishment. " I'm really not intending to be mean, but I can't see how anyone can wear an engagement ring and NOT see it as that. It's certainly not a "symbol of love" as women like to think of it. Love is not "look honey, I got you a piece of metal with a shiny stone in it like all the other women have". It's certainly not a symbol of "I'm off the market" or else you'd be wearing it the moment you were exclusive. It's not a symbol of marriage since it's pre-wedding. If you don't like the "status symbol" of it, how do you justify it? I mean not all women are as catty about it, but isn't "status symbol" about the most accurate way to describe it? I don't see it as a status symbol. but then again, i'm not walking around with a honking diamond on my left hand. i have a 3 stone ring with the center stone being a sapphire, my favorite. it could easily be mistaken for a "regular" ring and certainly didn't cost what it would have had it been a diamond. DH could have spent much more than he did... and he even admitted to feeling bad that he didn't spend as much as he "should" have because what i wanted simply wasn't THAT much... which is insane. DH bought me something that doesn't follow convention, that doesn't look like everyone elses and didn't cost very much... but it's a ring he knew i'd love (and i do!!!) and you could offer me a 5 carat diamond set in platinum and i'd pick my ring any day! If this ring were a status symbol... well, we'd be mistaken as fresh outta college and not in our 30s. lol
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on May 16, 2011 16:56:34 GMT -5
No I'm not using it as a "engagement status". I'm using it the same way you are. Not so much in the financial success...but isn't it basically "look at me, I'm attractive enough I found a man and he loves me so much he gave me this shiny hunk of metal to prove it"?
No more so than any other gift of jewelry someone might give their partner. I've worn a little diamond pendant that DF gave me when we were first dating since the day he gave it to me, but it's not a "status symbol," it's just a gift.
Can't I just wear something my partner gave me because I like it? Why does it have to be my proclamation to the world that I've got a guy? Why should that even enter the picture?
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on May 16, 2011 17:04:34 GMT -5
Why does it have to be my proclamation to the world that I've got a guy? Why should that even enter the picture? Because part of the tradition of women wearing jewelry is to warn other guys that they're already spoken for. It's also a way for people to show off their wealth. I'm not saying that's why he gave you the jewelry, or why you wear it, but I can understand how people would see it that way.
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