Wants vs. Needs opening a SO's eyes

[Deleted]

CME - you say she is getting "burned" is this sunburn or drugs? Could that be the issue here? And the cause for the missing money? Just a thought...

[cme1201]

May 14, 2011 16:43:52 GMT -5 @rosebaby said:

CME - you say she is getting "burned" is this sunburn or drugs? Could that be the issue here? And the cause for the missing money? Just a thought...

Sunburnt and a little (liter) of vodka.

[Knee Deep in Water Chloe]

I'm sorry.
I've been in a marriage in which I didn't like my husband.
It's not fun.

I understand not wanting to divorce for the sake of the kids; I held on to that marriage for at least five years too long for that. We--my kids and I--are much happier now.

Are you assuming you'll not get custody of the kids?

On the finanancial note, have you two never combined finances? If not, after a decade and a half, I'm sure she'll be shocked at doing such a thing. She might be willing, if she's taking her part of the marriage seriously.

Oh, and in regards to the "waiting for the blood"...we're all here for a bit of entertainment, right?

How is this weekend going? Have you been able to talk to her?

[cme1201]

May 14, 2011 19:50:22 GMT -5 Knee Deep in Water Chloe said:

I'm sorry.
I've been in a marriage in which I didn't like my husband.
It's not fun.

I understand not wanting to divorce for the sake of the kids; I held on to that marriage for at least five years too long for that. We--my kids and I--are much happier now.

Are you assuming you'll not get custody of the kids?

On the financial note, have you two never combined finances? If not, after a decade and a half, I'm sure she'll be shocked at doing such a thing. She might be willing, if she's taking her part of the marriage seriously.

Oh, and in regards to the "waiting for the blood"...we're all here for a bit of entertainment, right?

How is this weekend going? Have you been able to talk to her?

Well, in fourteen years of marriage my wife has worked a total of 3 1/2 years. Before our 1st son was born and for the last year. My pay during that time allowed me to provide for all of us, and she was a SAHM.

Up until now she has not had to contribute financially.

[Knee Deep in Water Chloe]

In my first marriage, even when I was staying home, we still had joint accounts. I managed all of the money. It was our money, not his, not mine. I know this doesn't work for everyone, I was just wondering if you two had ever tried it; and if you have, how did it go.

In my second relationship, we've been together for four years, living together for three, married for one. The whole time, we've had the same jobs:He works full time year round; I work full time ten months of the year. Now, the two months in the summer I don't work, doesn't mean I don't get any money. Everything goes into the same account.

[stats45]

It sounds like the power dynamics of the relationship changed after you went on disability. You no longer were the sole/primary provider for the family, and I don't know if anything else changed because of your injury. She was clearly dissatisfied by the situation, and you probably felt badly for changing the circumstances of the relationship. My guess is that now you are hesitant to say anything because she holds a lot of the power in the relationship now. If she left, you feel like you might be in an even worse situation, particularly not knowing the arrangements for your kids.

She is probably being more than a bit passive aggressive as well, just daring you to tell her how to spend money she is making when she didn't even 'need' to work before. She realizes that she has more power in the relationship now and it using it in unfair ways like spending so much time away.

[seriousthistime]

I've heard of only one couple where the wife thought the money she earned was hers. She was a SAHM. Her husband earned good money and had inherited several million $$ that he kept separately. He paid the bills from the joint account and every so often would sweep money from the household account into his inheritance account. He said that the interest rate was higher that way. She was careful with spending so it wasn't that he was trying to rein her in. When she finally went back to work very part-time (15 hours a week) she put her money into her own account. This irritated him no end. But she did not want her money put into the joint account so that he could sweep it into his inheritance account.

Under those circumstances I understand why she kept her money separate. After years of being controlled by the fact that he had "his" account, she was entitled to have a comparative pittance in "her" account. So they went from a "his" account and "their" account to a "his," "hers" and "theirs." Under the OP's circumstances, it is a "hers" and "theirs." If I were the OP, I would take an amount equivalent to what she takes home and put it into an account for myself (and probably put it into savings), and what's left pays the household bills. If she squawks, then maybe it's time to downsize the house, cut corners on the kids' activities, and cut discretionary spending. Or I might keep all the money in a separate household account and give her an allowance for groceries, kids' clothes, and whatever legitimate family spending she does.

This is a worst-case scenario. I would try other strategies first. For example, if they are not working off a written budget, maybe they should be.

However, I think the OP's situation is not so much a money issue as a relationship issue.

[Firebird]

I like the straight forward attitude here, seems cordial but with a slight tension, like people are waiting for the blood to hit the water.

A lot of posters here have been where you are, and they smell the blood in the water. I'm glad you're open to listening - I would absolutely divorce over certain money issues, and I take marriage seriously as well.

Good luck.

[stl76]

"When she finally went back to work very part-time (15 hours a week) she put her money into her own account. This irritated him no end. But she did not want her money put into the joint account so that he could sweep it into his inheritance account."

So she was not contributing to the household bills even when she went back to work? So his money was shared (except for the inheritance and the remaining after bills) but her money was all hers??? That would irritate me too.

[Mardi Gras Audrey]

May 15, 2011 11:56:00 GMT -5 seriousthistime said:

I've heard of only one couple where the wife thought the money she earned was hers. She was a SAHM. Her husband earned good money and had inherited several million $$ that he kept separately. He paid the bills from the joint account and every so often would sweep money from the household account into his inheritance account. He said that the interest rate was higher that way. She was careful with spending so it wasn't that he was trying to rein her in. When she finally went back to work very part-time (15 hours a week) she put her money into her own account. This irritated him no end. But she did not want her money put into the joint account so that he could sweep it into his inheritance account.

Under those circumstances I understand why she kept her money separate. After years of being controlled by the fact that he had "his" account, she was entitled to have a comparative pittance in "her" account. So they went from a "his" account and "their" account to a "his," "hers" and "theirs." Under the OP's circumstances, it is a "hers" and "theirs." If I were the OP, I would take an amount equivalent to what she takes home and put it into an account for myself (and probably put it into savings), and what's left pays the household bills. If she squawks, then maybe it's time to downsize the house, cut corners on the kids' activities, and cut discretionary spending. Or I might keep all the money in a separate household account and give her an allowance for groceries, kids' clothes, and whatever legitimate family spending she does.

This is a worst-case scenario. I would try other strategies first. For example, if they are not working off a written budget, maybe they should be.

However, I think the OP's situation is not so much a money issue as a relationship issue.

This doesn't sound very smart on his part. My understanding of property laws is that in most states inheritance is considered separate property UNLESS you comingle the funds. By placing "their" money into his inheritance, it could open up a can of worms if they were to get divorced. Trying to figure out what was his vs theirs and how the interest divided up would be painful. It doesn't seem worth it for a few dollars in interest. Lawyers, correct me if I am wrong about the comingling/inheritance/separate property thing...

[zibazinski]

You are not wrong. He just opened up his inheritance to her lawyer if she ever decides she has had enough of his BS.

[swamp]

May 17, 2011 1:12:33 GMT -5 Mardi Gras Audrey said:

May 15, 2011 11:56:00 GMT -5 seriousthistime said:

I've heard of only one couple where the wife thought the money she earned was hers. She was a SAHM. Her husband earned good money and had inherited several million $$ that he kept separately. He paid the bills from the joint account and every so often would sweep money from the household account into his inheritance account. He said that the interest rate was higher that way. She was careful with spending so it wasn't that he was trying to rein her in. When she finally went back to work very part-time (15 hours a week) she put her money into her own account. This irritated him no end. But she did not want her money put into the joint account so that he could sweep it into his inheritance account.

Under those circumstances I understand why she kept her money separate. After years of being controlled by the fact that he had "his" account, she was entitled to have a comparative pittance in "her" account. So they went from a "his" account and "their" account to a "his," "hers" and "theirs." Under the OP's circumstances, it is a "hers" and "theirs." If I were the OP, I would take an amount equivalent to what she takes home and put it into an account for myself (and probably put it into savings), and what's left pays the household bills. If she squawks, then maybe it's time to downsize the house, cut corners on the kids' activities, and cut discretionary spending. Or I might keep all the money in a separate household account and give her an allowance for groceries, kids' clothes, and whatever legitimate family spending she does.

This is a worst-case scenario. I would try other strategies first. For example, if they are not working off a written budget, maybe they should be.

However, I think the OP's situation is not so much a money issue as a relationship issue.

This doesn't sound very smart on his part. My understanding of property laws is that in most states inheritance is considered separate property UNLESS you comingle the funds. By placing "their" money into his inheritance, it could open up a can of worms if they were to get divorced. Trying to figure out what was his vs theirs and how the interest divided up would be painful. It doesn't seem worth it for a few dollars in interest. Lawyers, correct me if I am wrong about the comingling/inheritance/separate property thing...

There's a little more to it than that, but you're right, he's just opened a huge can o' worms with his actions.

[zibazinski]

BTW, even non-Christians take their wedding vows seriously. ;D

[Angel!]

May 13, 2011 20:58:20 GMT -5 cme1201 said:

I won't divorce over money, infidelity yes if it's proven.

Many people on here believe that there is such a thing as financial infidelity & that it is an acceptable reason to divorce. A spouse's financial choices can drag down an entire family - racking up debt, wasting money on drugs/alcohol/gambling, taking money out of a joint account without explaination, etc.

She took $5400 & refused to explain why, that is freaking ridiculous. Sounds to me like neither of you want to be in this marriage anymore - why else hire a PI for 8 months looking for infidelity & why else run away every weekend to visit a friend & take $5400 out of an account & refuse to explain.

I would go to counseling, together if she will go or just go alone. Figure out what you want & how to try to get through to her. I would also try to start getting my ducks in a row for divorce - talk to a lawyer, see where you stand as far as alimony, custody, assets, etc. Doesn't mean you have to file, but just get a feeling on what the outcome might be.

If nothing changes, do you really want to continue to be in this situation?

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

BTW, even non-Christians take their wedding vows seriously.

Not if you had a wedding.

She took $5400 & refused to explain why, that is freaking ridiculous. Sounds to me like neither of you want to be in this marriage anymore - why else hire a PI for 8 months looking for infidelity & why else run away every weekend to visit a friend & take $5400 out of an account & refuse to explain.

I asked my DH what he would think about this and on top of that I drive every weekend 100 miles to see my friend without him.

His response. .. you are cheating on me.

I just cannot see sitting around with blinders on. Even if she isn't cheating cheating on him, there is SOMETHING going on. Why else would $5400 just disappear?

No way I could remain married to DH if he did that and could not account for every single penny. I don't care if a PI proved that he isn't poking another woman, he still doing SOMETHING behind my back.

[8 Bit WWBG]

You could be me 10 years from now, and I knew I didn't want that, so I had to start making changes. I too just let her have her way, tried talking, tried reasoning, and always found myself agreeing to things that were so pathetic, that I had trouble looking at myself in the mirror.

The ONLY way she is going to respect you is if you are worthy of being respected. Respect is not bestowed. It is earned. It has to be demanded. You have to be worthy of it.

Let me guess, a lot of your conversations go something like this:

1) You: approach wife with sweet tone and rational point.
2) Her: in spite of your logic, she doesn't want to change because she likes how things are.
3) You: seeing she doesn't want to change, try to talk more sense, and even try to accommodate her wishes.
4) Her: stands firm
5) You: repeat steps 3 and 4 until you give up and walk away worse off than when you started the conversation.

She has NO reason to change, because she gets her way. She can go see her friend and nothing happens. She is well insulated from the consequences. We've seen this here 100+ times before. One spouse is so concerned about credit, and paying the bills, or has kids, that they simply can't let the shit hit the fan.

There is no other way. If you want things to get better, you have to be 100% committed to doing what it is going to take to get her to stop walking all over you. She has already learned she can stonewall or outlast you. If you back down, you will just continue to reinforce that lesson.

The best thing you can do is STOP talking and START doing. I bet you secretly hope you'll outargue her and she'll say "you're right, I need to change". Stop trying that. Just DO things. Let her find out about them long after the fact. Let her figure out that the car is out of gas. Let her call and complain. Lets see if she REALLY lets the kids not go to school. Lets see if she really lets you starve.

You CAN do it, you just have to be willing to deal with the consequences. Like cawiau said, she's going to make it hard for you, because when you actually start taking action, she'll see her way of life being threatened. She'll pull out all the stops (although if she is anything like many of the spouses with this attitude, I'm betting sex isn't really on the plate now).

Be strong, and claim your respect.

[Firebird]

Be strong, and claim your respect.

I second everything else you said in this post, but if she's cheating on him then I think the respect is already long gone.

I'm monogamous by nature and I don't think I could ever cheat on a partner, so take this with a grain of salt, but if I ever somehow got to the point of cheating on DF, any respect I ever had for him would be a distant memory.

[8 Bit WWBG]

I re-read the whole thread and still stand by what I said earlier. Also wanted to comment on these:

...:::"I have a standing invite to go over whenever, from my wife her bff and her husband":::...

If I were trying to conceal activities, I would make sure there was transparency in this manner. If she is going every weekend, then the odds are very low you will take her up on the offer, and even if you do, its only one weekend. But if you ever question her trustworthiness, she can say "well you have an open invitation, why don't you join me" knowing you won't.

...:::"See if she is amicable to paying for internet/cable/phone, city water/gas and lights while I pick up the Mortgage.":::...

This is loser talk. You don't ask her if she is amicable to paying these bills, because it implies she has the option to say no. And she WILL say no, because paying these bills would take money that she is used to blowing on herself.

You tell her that you will no longer be paying for these items, and if she wants to keep them, she needs to pony up. You NEED to be willing to do what it takes to outlast her.

Alternatively, you demand that both your checks be direct deposited into a joint account and that you will dole out allowances. If she doesn't want to play ball, then you revert to the first stance: that you will no longer pay.

[Firebird]

You tell her that you will no longer be paying for these items, and if she wants to keep them, she needs to pony up. You NEED to be willing to do what it takes to outlast her.

Yup. And make sure she actually KNOWS about these bills. It sounds silly, but DF didn't realize that we paid for gas and electric until I told him. I set them up in our new apartment before he moved in and they're both in my name.

So if you're going to take this tack, I would do it by writing out every monthly bill the two of you have, then take a big red pen and cross out everything you're no longer willing to pay to keep and ask her how she plans to make up the shortfall. That way she actually KNOWS what she needs to come up with if she wants to keep this, that and the other thing.

You're in trouble if she wants to keep the cable and doesn't care to pay the water bill, but that's a bridge you can blow up later.

[Angel!]

You tell her that you will no longer be paying for these items, and if she wants to keep them, she needs to pony up. You NEED to be willing to do what it takes to outlast her.

Just my opinion, but I think this is a sure-fire way to get them to a divorce quicker. She already sounds like she is running away from their life by leaving to see bff all the time. I think all that will happen is it will create a stand-off where neither will pay the bills, but the wife will just leave more often to avoid being in a house with no utilities, leaving the husband & kids to suffer. She probably won't pay & she won't suffer nearly as bad as the rest of them.

I could be wrong, but I just see this tactic backfiring. But, then again I don't know a better approach & as I have already said, it sounds like your marriage is already over, so maybe there is no better option. He needs to find something that will hurt her, but not him & the kids.

[shanendoah]

Okay, here's my suggestion, but I don't know your wife, so maybe it would work for you and maybe it wouldn't...

One evening after the kids are in bed, or some other time when its just the two of you in the house (but not on a date night or other planned romantic time), ask her to sit down and go over the budget with you. Don't tell her what to do, don't use the Socratic method of asking leading questions to try and get her to go where you want (its annoying and patronizing), but honestly ask for her input and assistance.
You can use the recent incidence of the kids having to stay at the babysitter's 3 hours longer as a jumping off point. Tell her there's currently not room in the budget for that $75. Tell her that you like her BFF and you're glad they get to spend time together, but for the kids' sake, there needs to be a way you can get ahold of her on days when you have to work late and she's off so that you can come up with a child care solution together.
Show her the numbers. Go over the monthly budget. Mention that you know you used to make a lot more, but at the same time, you weren't home as often and didn't get to enjoy your kids as much. You like the new situation (I'm assuming) but it has its challenges, too, and this is something you two need to figure out together.

You can not treat your wife like a teenager. She is your EQUAL partner in managing the money as well as in raising the kids. You have to make money decisions together.
If you're not able to make decisions together (money or otherwise), then you need couples' counseling.

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

If you're not able to make decisions together (money or otherwise), then you need couples' counseling.

I do believe the OP has mentioned he has asked her to go and she refuses. He went and said he got a handle on his "issues", but personally I think it is more thatn he supresses them.

Cause there is no way in hell I'd be "okay" therapist or not if that $5400 was never accounted for, it'd always be in the back of my mind. I'd have to willfully supress it every day.

[shanendoah]

For some reason, it only showed me one page before I posted, then showed me the other three, so I'm going to add to my earlier comment...

DO NOT TREAT YOUR SPOUSE LIKE A CHILD if you want you marriage to survive.
I don't care what other posters suggest, but when one spouse is a "parent" and one is a "child", the relationship can not hold.
I actually get the impression that this problem started BECAUSE you treat your wife like a child. Try treating her like an adult and see what happens.
(And please know that I say this as someone that many people would see as a "mom" in my relationship to DH. In addition to our very different needs to control situations, he has a bad memory, so I often remind him about things that might seem like nagging or parenting. But we have an agreement that if either of us ever starts to feel like we're moving in to a nagging/parenting role, that we stop and come up with a better solution.)

You said earlier that she got bored with couples' counseling and so you worked out your issues. Any chance that the couples' counseling was all about your issues, and not one bit about hers? (Not necessarily your fault.) But if you go to counseling, then the therapist needs to make sure you both have equal time to vent your issues, even if you think yours might be more "serious".

And while I realize the OP can't go along on visits to the BFFs (he has weekends off, she has weekdays off) maybe you could arrange to have the kids not in day care one day a week (or at least the one(s) not in school) and they could go with Mom. Her BFF's kids could conceivably watch them just like they do their younger sibling.

[Firebird]

I could be wrong, but I just see this tactic backfiring. But, then again I don't know a better approach & as I have already said, it sounds like your marriage is already over, so maybe there is no better option. He needs to find something that will hurt her, but not him & the kids.

How about "pay these bills or the kids and I are moving to a more affordable place and you can keep this one"?

[cme1201]

May 17, 2011 14:25:55 GMT -5 Firebird said:

I could be wrong, but I just see this tactic backfiring. But, then again I don't know a better approach & as I have already said, it sounds like your marriage is already over, so maybe there is no better option. He needs to find something that will hurt her, but not him & the kids.

How about "pay these bills or the kids and I are moving to a more affordable place and you can keep this one"?

Because I have worked my ass off on my house. I will not leave the 6 years worth of mortgage payments I have made (alone), if I wasn't underwater I would sell and move.

[Firebird]

Are you still in this, CME? Do you see yourself with your wife in 20 years? 40? What does that picture look like?

You're using personal pronouns in all of your posts. I haven't noticed much use of "we" or "ours" from you. Does that tell you anything?

[swamp]

May 14, 2011 18:05:58 GMT -5 cme1201 said:

May 14, 2011 16:43:52 GMT -5 @rosebaby said:

CME - you say she is getting "burned" is this sunburn or drugs? Could that be the issue here? And the cause for the missing money? Just a thought...

Sunburnt and a little (litter) of vodka.

Big red flag here. She's got a drinking problem.

[8 Bit WWBG]

...:::"but I think this is a sure-fire way to get them to a divorce quicker":::...

And this is a bad thing... why? He hired a PI to follow her around. She visits a friend weekly budget be damned. What are we saving here?

Consider also that him demonstrating he is willing to get tough, and even walk, may be JUST what she needs to shape up. The point has been made over and over that she has no reason to change. Well if she stands to lose her comfy trimmings, or her husband/life as she knows it, then she'll realize that she is no longer dealing with idle threats and she has to make some hard choices.

...:::"but the wife will just leave more often to avoid being in a house with no utilities":::...

They have only one car, right? Why is said car always available when she wants it? What would she do if it wasn't there? Does the OP and kids sit in the house all weekend while she is gone?

...:::"(but not on a date night or other planned romantic time)":::...

I would speculate that "date night" or "romantic time" is a faded memory to them at this point.

...:::"Because I have worked my ass off on my house. I will not leave the 6 years worth of mortgage payments I have made (alone), if I wasn't underwater I would sell and move.":::...

Stuff like this is just another weapon your wife can use against you. People in your situation are often forced into compliance because the other person knows that any action severe enough to hurt them will hurt you more. So she can just continue to fritter away "her" money as she sees fit, all the while mocking you with that "ha ha can't touch me" attitude.

You are up the creek, dude. You have demonstrated to her what you will tolerate, and she loves it. I have been where you are -- powerless and blinded by love even though I made most or all of the money, owned everything of value, and by any objective measure should have been able to do a lot better.

I got extremely lucky that my DF finally realized that I had been right all along and that we needed to be better, and while that is great she finally has, its going to take a LONG time to clean up the mess.

The worst part though is fighting yourself, and the ingrained patterns that you've come to accept as inevitable over the years. Feeling yourself sliding back into roles that make it hard to look at yourself in the mirror. Agreeing to, or being forced into situations you KNOW are not fair, and that make you feel awful yet somehow they get away with it time and time again.

Not one person here has agreed that the weekly visits to the bff are warranted, yet your wife seems to be in no danger of losing them. Your "solution" was very minimalist, passive, and in general just plain weak because once again it hinges on her being "reasonable" instead of selfish.

You HAVE to stand up for yourself, or else you'll be bled dry.

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

Consider also that him demonstrating he is willing to get tough, and even walk, may be JUST what she needs to shape up. The point has been made over and over that she has no reason to change. Well if she stands to lose her comfy trimmings, or her husband/life as she knows it, then she'll realize that she is no longer dealing with idle threats and she has to make some hard choices.

The OP isn't ready yet though to handle her calling his bluff and walking. Until he's actually prepared to deal with her leaving it'd be just another empty threat.

My marital counseler said that at some point you just have to hold some people's feet to the fire and have consequences dire enough that they have no choice but to change.

Sitting down is nice, reasoning is nice, date are nice but when NONE of that works and I'd assume that if you are to the point of hiring a PI you've probably done all that, it's time to pull out the big guns.

But you HAVE to be prepared to follow it thru till the end. The OP has stated multiple times he isn't ready for that.

[swamp]

If she's got an alcohol addiction, nothing is going to change until she realizes she has a problem. And yes, I think someone who drinks a liter of vodka in one sitting has a problem.