grumpyhermit
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Post by grumpyhermit on Aug 5, 2024 18:50:36 GMT -5
Yes I have heard of it and what makes you think this person has it? ................ because that information has not been released. Some women have heightened levels of testosterone for medical conditions such as polycystic ovaries etc...... but it still doesn't go to male levels and from what I have read this person has male levels.Firstly I don't rail against Americans for anything. and secondly Im not on the other side this is the consensus. .... Its not some right wing conspiracy BS...... Its not political at all. No, I'm not ignorant at all. and I have already mentioned your point. Which is exactly what an ignorant person would say. Fact is, if they want to challenge this women's eligibility, the duty is on them to provide proof - not vague statements that "they have seen tests" that "prove she is ineligible." Put up, or shut up. You keep blathering how she isn't a woman, but you have no more "proof" than anyone positing other options. In that same statement you keep mentioning they even say it wasn't a testosterone test. If she does have something like Swyer, I would urge you to read up on it, as it doesn't appear to convey the type of advantages you think it does.
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Spellbound454
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Post by Spellbound454 on Aug 5, 2024 18:55:07 GMT -5
Ok this is what I'm getting
You guys seem to be turning yourselves inside-out worrying what a woman is.... when its really not that complicated.
Any question that the Algerian should not be competing in the interests of fairness for the female opponents
seems to equate equate with right wing American nut jobs and a US election.
Not sure why that is, unless it has become an election issue in your Country
but for those of us who aren't that interested in the US election ....... it makes no sense.
You would put the rights of an individual over the rights of women to compete as equals ........ whereas I would support the rights of women.
In sport there has to be regulations so that the competitors have a fair chance and that hasn't been done by the IOC
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Spellbound454
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Post by Spellbound454 on Aug 5, 2024 19:01:39 GMT -5
Its the duty of the IOC to make sure that competitors are eligible for their competition
and they have done it, they have just looked at the passport.
If there is a challenge why didn't they do a simple blood test?
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pulmonarymd
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Post by pulmonarymd on Aug 5, 2024 19:02:02 GMT -5
Yes I have heard of it and what makes you think this person has it? ................ because that information has not been released. Some women have heightened levels of testosterone for medical conditions such as polycystic ovaries etc...... but it still doesn't go to male levels and from what I have read this person has male levels.Firstly I don't rail against Americans for anything. and secondly Im not on the other side this is the consensus. .... It’s not some right wing conspiracy BS...... Its not political at all. No, I'm not ignorant at all. and I have already mentioned your point. So how high is too high? Where is your cut off point where a person with xx chromosomes is not a women. 10%, 20%, 50%? You realize that most women competing in strength events likely have testosterone levels above average, many near the top of the range. Unfortunately, life is unfair. Competition in the Olympics is not a right, and people are denied the right to compete for myriad and random reasons. You want to have everything be “fair” in this instance, but rail against Americans when we talk about making life “fairer”.
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pulmonarymd
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Post by pulmonarymd on Aug 5, 2024 19:06:04 GMT -5
Ok this is what I'm getting You guys seem to be turning yourselves inside-out worrying what a woman is.... when its really not that complicated. Any question that the Algerian should not be competing in the interests of fairness for the female opponents seems to equate equate with right wing American nut jobs and a US election. Not sure why that is, unless it has become an election issue in your Country but for those of us who aren't that interested in the US election ....... it makes no sense. You would put the rights of an individual over the rights of women to compete as equals ........ whereas I would support the rights of women. In sport there has to be regulations so that the competitors have a fair chance and that hasn't been done by the IOC Funny how you are the one arguing without any facts to back you up. All you have is unsubstantiated reports that fit your narrative. We have been pointing out why she would be able to compete with the “facts” as you state. You are unwilling to entertain those options, and are willing to deny this person the opportunity to compete based on your biased as to who meets your definition of who is a woman. You refuse to accept that
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Aug 5, 2024 19:07:25 GMT -5
Ok this is what I'm getting
You guys seem to be turning yourselves inside-out worrying what a woman is.... when its really not that complicated.Any question that the Algerian should not be competing in the interests of fairness for the female opponents seems to equate equate with right wing American nut jobs and a US election. Not sure why that is, unless it has become an election issue in your Country but for those of us who aren't that interested in the US election ....... it makes no sense. You would put the rights of an individual over the rights of women to compete as equals ........ whereas I would support the rights of women. In sport there has to be regulations so that the competitors have a fair chance and that hasn't been done by the IOC Too many people are posting so it might be hard to see as there is only one of you. The collective opposition to your post is not at all concerned what a woman is. This particular woman is probably is XX genetically. Or XXX. My suggestion is to abandon this thread for a day or more if you can. And then reread. The spoiler is my opinion on one of the reasons the RW and the patriarchy is pushing this issue. This stuff is faux outrage IMO because the predators of the world do not like the idea of stronger than average women making it harder for them to abuse them sexually and otherwise. Just like predators of young male love kids with single moms. Easier to hide their crimes and get away with bad behavior longer.
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pulmonarymd
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Post by pulmonarymd on Aug 5, 2024 19:13:25 GMT -5
Maybe we should go back to those invasive physical exams to prove you are a woman. Spread your legs ladies, so we male members of the IOC can inspect your genitalia to ensure you are a women, and allowed to compete. We can add testosterone tests, ultrasound to ensure you do not have an undescended testicle, and have you show us you menstrual products. Can’t let anyone who doesn’t menstruate compete, because we know that only women do that/s
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Aug 5, 2024 19:15:27 GMT -5
Its the duty of the IOC to make sure that competitors are eligible for their competition and they have done it, they have just looked at the passport.If there is a challenge why didn't they do a simple blood test? Do blood tests show XX, XXX, XY, XXY, etc?There was a challenge, and the original decision to let her compete in the Olympics stood. Even the woman who stormed off, did not do so because of her competitor's sex. She stormed off cuz she got herself beat very quickly in the match. Sometimes you misread your opponent and get your ass kicked. Sometimes people storm off because they are pissed at themselves and that is all it is. P.S Maybe in Version 7 of the boards we can block ourselves from threads with a timer. Opti self-selects to block herself from posting in a thread for 24, 38 or some number of hours or days. Would be nice feature!
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Spellbound454
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Post by Spellbound454 on Aug 5, 2024 19:28:02 GMT -5
Well I'm pretty sure a geneticist could draw up a regulation.
something like, If the chromosomes are XX the person is female.... (can have higher than average testosterone in different conditions as has already been discussed) permitted.
XY chromosomes and male levels of testosterone is male..... ineligible.
other , XXYY, XYY, XXXXY are male anyway... ineligible.
The female chromosomal anomalies tend to have extra X chromosomes possibly eligible.... although they may be associated with some type of syndrome which would be unusual in an athlete..
If there is any hint that the person may have an advantage because of a biological anomaly, they should not compete.
No you have to fit the criteria.
Its not "fair to the female competitors, that's the whole point I'm making.
but you are dismissing that
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Spellbound454
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Post by Spellbound454 on Aug 5, 2024 19:34:03 GMT -5
Maybe we should go back to those invasive physical exams to prove you are a woman. Spread your legs ladies, so we male members of the IOC can inspect your genitalia to ensure you are a women, and allowed to compete. We can add testosterone tests, ultrasound to ensure you do not have an undescended testicle, and have you show us you menstrual products. Can’t let anyone who doesn’t menstruate compete, because we know that only women do that/s hyperbole.... a blood test or even a mouth swab would do it.
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pulmonarymd
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Post by pulmonarymd on Aug 5, 2024 19:36:19 GMT -5
Well I'm pretty sure a geneticist could draw up a regulation. something like, If the chromosomes are XX the person is female.... (can have higher than average testosterone in different conditions as has already been discussed) permitted. XY chromosomes and male levels of testosterone is male..... ineligible. other , XXYY, XYY, XXXXY are male anyway... ineligible. The female chromosomal anomalies tend to have extra X chromosomes possibly eligible.... although they may be associated with some type of syndrome which would be unusual in an athlete.. If there is any hint that the person may have an advantage because of a biological anomaly, they should not compete. No you have to fit the criteria. Its not "fair to the female competitors, that's the whole point I'm making. but you are dismissing that By discriminating against other people, who, through some genetic glitch, cannot compete and are not woman in your view. Someone with complete androgen insensitivity has no advantage over who you consider a woman, yet she is ineligible in your opinion. Just by what you posted, you acknowledge that this is not black and white.But to compete in the Olympics, you have to be the “right” type of women, and you do not like the IOC’s decision because it is different from yours. Unusual does not mean impossible. These people make you uncomfortable. They should stay in the shadows, just like we kept disabled individuals in the shadows because they made us “normal” people uncomfortable
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tallguy
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Post by tallguy on Aug 5, 2024 19:36:49 GMT -5
Well I'm pretty sure a geneticist could draw up a regulation. something like, If the chromosomes are XX the person is female.... (can have higher than average testosterone in different conditions as has already been discussed) permitted. XY chromosomes and male levels of testosterone is male..... ineligible. other , XXYY, XYY, XXXXY are male anyway... ineligible. The female chromosomal anomalies tend to have extra X chromosomes possibly eligible.... although they may be associated with some type of syndrome which would be unusual in an athlete.. If there is any hint that the person may have an advantage because of a biological anomaly, they should not compete. No you have to fit the criteria. Its not "fair to the female competitors, that's the whole point I'm making.but you are dismissing that According to one story I read, she has been beaten by women NINE times. Must have seemed pretty fair to those nine that beat her. Here's what you have on your side. An unsubstantiated claim by a man with ties to the Russian mob and who has reason to lie, and who (along with his thoroughly discredited and banned organization) has given incomplete and contradictory answers when questioned about the matter. No proof, and not even any real evidence, has been provided against someone who has been competing as a woman for years. The fact that one Italian woman started crying and quit is not evidence.
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Spellbound454
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Post by Spellbound454 on Aug 5, 2024 19:37:25 GMT -5
She stormed off because she said she had never felt a punch like it... and didn't feel safe.
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pulmonarymd
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Post by pulmonarymd on Aug 5, 2024 19:37:54 GMT -5
Maybe we should go back to those invasive physical exams to prove you are a woman. Spread your legs ladies, so we male members of the IOC can inspect your genitalia to ensure you are a women, and allowed to compete. We can add testosterone tests, ultrasound to ensure you do not have an undescended testicle, and have you show us you menstrual products. Can’t let anyone who doesn’t menstruate compete, because we know that only women do that/s hyperbole.... a blood test or even a mouth swab would do it. It was how it was done in the past, and not that long ago. Castor Semeya, a South African track athlete, was subjected to just that exam before they would allow her to compete
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pulmonarymd
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Post by pulmonarymd on Aug 5, 2024 19:39:24 GMT -5
Maybe we should go back to those invasive physical exams to prove you are a woman. Spread your legs ladies, so we male members of the IOC can inspect your genitalia to ensure you are a women, and allowed to compete. We can add testosterone tests, ultrasound to ensure you do not have an undescended testicle, and have you show us you menstrual products. Can’t let anyone who doesn’t menstruate compete, because we know that only women do that/s hyperbole.... a blood test or even a mouth swab would do it. Again, how high a testosterone level would be disqualifying?
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chiver78
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Post by chiver78 on Aug 5, 2024 19:45:55 GMT -5
Well I'm pretty sure a geneticist could draw up a regulation. something like, If the chromosomes are XX the person is female.... (can have higher than average testosterone in different conditions as has already been discussed) permitted. XY chromosomes and male levels of testosterone is male..... ineligible. other , XXYY, XYY, XXXXY are male anyway... ineligible. The female chromosomal anomalies tend to have extra X chromosomes possibly eligible.... although they may be associated with some type of syndrome which would be unusual in an athlete.. If there is any hint that the person may have an advantage because of a biological anomaly, they should not compete. No you have to fit the criteria. Its not "fair to the female competitors, that's the whole point I'm making. but you are dismissing that By discriminating against other people, who, through some genetic glitch, cannot compete and are not woman in your view. Someone with complete androgen insensitivity has no advantage over who you consider a woman, yet she is ineligible in your opinion. Just by what you posted, you acknowledge that this is not black and white.But to compete in the Olympics, you have to be the “right” type of women, and you do not like the IOC’s decision because it is different from yours. Unusual does not mean impossible. These people make you uncomfortable. They should stay in the shadows, just like we kept disabled individuals in the shadows because they made us “normal” people uncomfortableTHIS!!
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tallguy
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Post by tallguy on Aug 5, 2024 19:47:48 GMT -5
hyperbole.... a blood test or even a mouth swab would do it. It was how it was done in the past, and not that long ago. Castor Semeya, a South African track athlete, was subjected to just that exam before they would allow her to compete For a couple of years in the '60s, every woman who competed had to go into a room, pull their pants down, and prove that they had a vagina. Some athletes called them the "peek-and-poke" tests. No, that's not demeaning at all....
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Spellbound454
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Post by Spellbound454 on Aug 5, 2024 19:53:24 GMT -5
You accuse me of using unsubstantiated reports which suit my narrative. (There is no narrative I'm just using the reports that are in the media)
but you have no idea if this is what she has.... it could be dozens of things.
and we seem to be going in circles
Yes you have no automatic right to compete in the Olympics to have to fit an eligibility criteria.
That's on the IOC ... and they have done nothing but look at a passport.
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Post by moon/Laura on Aug 5, 2024 19:58:52 GMT -5
She stormed off because she said she had never felt a punch like it... and didn't feel safe. And that has fuck all to do with any stupid gender issues you're harping on. Even male boxers must have times when a hit feels 'different' and to continue could be dangerous for them.
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chiver78
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Post by chiver78 on Aug 5, 2024 20:00:38 GMT -5
You accuse me of using unsubstantiated reports which suit my narrative. (There is no narrative I'm just using the reports that are in the media)but you have no idea if this is what she has.... it could be dozens of things. and we seem to be going in circles Yes you have no automatic right to compete in the Olympics to have to fit an eligibility criteria. That's on the IOC ... and they have done nothing but look at a passport. except you're not, there isn't anything reported officially with these "test results" other than conjecture. try again!
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pulmonarymd
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Post by pulmonarymd on Aug 5, 2024 20:02:00 GMT -5
You accuse me of using unsubstantiated reports which suit my narrative. (There is no narrative I'm just using the reports that are in the media) but you have no idea if this is what she has.... it could be dozens of things. and we seem to be going in circles Yes you have no automatic right to compete in the Olympics to have to fit an eligibility criteria. That's on the IOC ... and they have done nothing but look at a passport. Yet you want yo disqualify her based on unsubstantiated reports. I am willing to accept the IOC decision. See the difference?
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Aug 5, 2024 20:03:17 GMT -5
In other news from the summer Olympics, French pole vaulter Anthony Ammirati made a name for himself when he knocked the bar off with his crotch on Saturday while trying to qualify for the final—and he certainly made an impression on Olympics viewers.
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Spellbound454
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Post by Spellbound454 on Aug 5, 2024 20:05:09 GMT -5
Male levels. Even women with various conditions don't have male levels. You can't inject synthetic anabolic steroids as you would fail a drug test ..... and if your body is making to much testosterone you would have an advantage. No they don't, where on earth did you get that from? I'm interested in equality for women ...... something you guys don't seem to give a hoot about. Forget emancipation we've gone back at least a hundred years.
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pulmonarymd
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Post by pulmonarymd on Aug 5, 2024 20:15:53 GMT -5
Male levels. Even women with various conditions don't have male levels. You can't inject synthetic anabolic steroids as you would fail a drug test ..... and if your body is making to much testosterone you would have an advantage. No they don't, where on earth did you get that from? I'm interested in equality for women ...... something you guys don't seem to give a hoot about. Forget emancipation we've gone back at least a hundred years. By discriminating against other women. So if someone has an adrenal secreting tumor that raises their testestorone levels to the male range are not women?
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Aug 5, 2024 20:22:08 GMT -5
and compassion for the Women who have been pushed out of their dreams of a medal by someone who isn't a woman? or the Italian woman who got smacked so hard in the face that she had to retire? Women and women's sports must be protected. In this case - wouldn’t it only be one single woman who was pushed out? I hate sports. We need more arts - where people work together and men and women could be treated the same.
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Spellbound454
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Post by Spellbound454 on Aug 5, 2024 20:26:20 GMT -5
By not protecting them, their sport and their spaces.
by allowing people in, who have not had any eligibility tests.
At least the Russian mobsters made an informed decision before banning them.
Unlikely to be boxing
ineligible because male levels of testosterone....... still a woman. We have actually had something like this before.
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pulmonarymd
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Post by pulmonarymd on Aug 5, 2024 20:33:48 GMT -5
Male levels. Even women with various conditions don't have male levels. You can't inject synthetic anabolic steroids as you would fail a drug test ..... and if your body is making to much testosterone you would have an advantage. No they don't, where on earth did you get that from? I'm interested in equality for women ...... something you guys don't seem to give a hoot about. Forget emancipation we've gone back at least a hundred years. Normal testosterone level for women 18 and older(premenopausal) 10-55 Normal testosterone level for men 18 and older 264-916 SO you would let a women with 4 times a normal testosterone level compete, since it would be lower than that of a man. And you are complaining about this women competing. You clearly have no idea what you are talking about.
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Spellbound454
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Post by Spellbound454 on Aug 6, 2024 3:29:23 GMT -5
The crux is this:-
Women and their sport must be protected so they can compete equally.
If someone is competing with them, who should be ineligible because of raised levels of testosterone or they are gender obscure
They are cheating....... and cheating legitimate competitors out of their awards.
....... and......... if it is as the IBA spokesman said, "this person is a male"
Its outrageous, that we have just watched a male smash a female in the face.
You seem to have got lost down a rabbit hole of ........"a person is whatever they say they are"
Which is complete nonsense. and the reason the IOC have come in for such criticism.
Categories for sporting entry.... must be clear and fixed.
and if it is a woman's boxing tournament, the minimum requirement is that the competitors are women.
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Spellbound454
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Post by Spellbound454 on Aug 6, 2024 3:40:47 GMT -5
Like I said, women cannot compete with individuals with male levels of testosterone...... as there would be an unfair advantage.
Testosterone levels have been measured in previous tournaments as an indicator of eligibility.
This time they haven't been and the IOC have to account for that.
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Aug 6, 2024 4:01:52 GMT -5
Like I said, women cannot compete with individuals with male levels of testosterone...... as there would be an unfair advantage.
Testosterone levels have been measured in previous tournaments as an indicator of eligibility. This time they haven't been and the IOC have to account for that. Unfair how and to what degree? You are now asking to exclude a biological female from competing just because she is at the end of the bell curve for women. How is that fair? Why do you think biologically the levels of testosterone for men and women should not overlap? I think it is kind of cool that it happens. Men and women are the same species, human. Biologically we are just different sexes.
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