Behind the Birth of an Anti-Vaccine Story

[Tennesseer]

A New York Times article.

Behind the Birth of an Anti-Vaccine Story
A 24-year-old’s sudden death devastated his family — and caught the attention of the movement of vaccine opponents.

Before he received his second shot of a Covid-19 vaccine, there was little reason to think that George Watts Jr. was about to die.

He was 24 and showed no obvious health problems. His family said he lived cautiously. He spent most of his time playing video games in his room at his parents’ house in Elmira, a city in south-central New York

That is where he was when he collapsed on Oct. 27, 2021.

George Jr.’s mother, Kathy, called 911 and started C.P.R. Paramedics rushed him to the emergency room, where doctors pronounced him dead.

What happened?

To the family, the answer was instantly obvious. “I blame that damn Covid vaccine,” Ms. Watts said in the hospital’s waiting room after learning her son had died, according to her husband, George Watts Sr.

The medical examiner at a New York hospital reached a similar conclusion, adding more specifics: The cause of death, he wrote, was “Covid-19 vaccine-related myocarditis,” an uncommon and often mild condition involving inflammation of the heart. It can develop when the body battles viruses, responds to certain vaccines, or nearly a dozen other reasons. Multiple studies say the condition can develop in some people, particularly young men, who receive a Covid-19 vaccine.

Before long, news of George Jr.’s death ricocheted around the internet, transforming the family’s tragedy into a powerful anecdote inside anti-vaccine communities. It was shared as an urgent warning about vaccine dangers on online forums, podcasts and Facebook groups. The Children’s Health Defense, the nonprofit founded by the anti-vaccine activist Robert F. Kennedy Jr., contacted the Watts family and solicited donations for the organization off their name.

To vaccine opponents, George Jr.’s case delivered an unambiguous life-or-death warning: Don’t believe what the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention tells you. Vaccines can kill, and here was all the proof anyone needed.

As those claims spread online, many medical experts started raising questions about the story. Myocarditis could have been the culprit, they said, but it was difficult to conclude that the vaccine was the cause — especially without further examination of George Jr.’s body. That is now impossible. His body was cremated.

The C.D.C. received specimens from George Jr.’s autopsy and is finalizing a pathology report, according to the New York State Department of Health. The agency has not released any information publicly, citing privacy concerns.



Those outstanding questions, however, have not stopped activists, radio hosts and disinformation peddlers from declaring unambiguously that George Jr.’s death resulted from his Covid-19 vaccination, and painted myocarditis as an automatic death sentence instead of a typically mild condition. And they are reaching a growing audience.



Rest of article here:  Behind the Birth of an Anti-Vaccine Story

[pulmonarymd]

Read this. Based on what I saw, it was a shoddily done autopsy, with insupportable conclusions without other testing done. He had multi-organ damage, there are a whole host of disease processes that could explain his death, with a vaccine induced myocarditis being way down the list.

[chiver78]

I haven't read this, but I believe your statements, pmd. no pharmaceutical that passes clinical trials and the various approvals causes major physical reactions* in a single dose. it's sad how the nutters grasp at whatever straws they can in order to justify their unfounded opinions. 

*allergic reactions are different, and do not produce myocarditis. allergic reactions are more systemic, or acute lung sort of issues. myocarditis is not an allergic reaction. 

[Tiny]

From the article:

It is well established that the mRNA vaccines developed by Pfizer-BioNTech and Moderna slightly increase the risk of developing myocarditis, especially in young men who receive two or more doses. The overall numbers are small — there were 224 verified cases of myocarditis among vaccinated children and young adults in the United States from late 2020 to mid-2022, out of the nearly seven million vaccine doses that were administered, according to one study. Most patients recover from the condition after at least 90 days, according to another study published in late 2022.

Doctors concluded the benefits from getting vaccinated far outweighed the risks. Their views were supported by the finding that myocarditis was significantly more likely to develop after a Covid-19 infection than from the vaccine, according to a report from 2021.

It isn't good when someone dies from something that is protecting lots of other people.

the article also reports that the young man was sick - enough to visit the doctor and eventually the emergency room in the weeks before he died.
I think sometimes people read about these deaths and assume the person was fine and dandy and then out of the blue they died suddenly.

I'm NOT blaming anyone. This death was a tragedy.

I would be more likely to criticize/blame our healthcare system rather than the Covid19 vaccine - after several visits to the doctor/emergency room - he didn't really get a clear diagnosis of what was wrong and he wasn't getting better/recovering.

I do realize healthcare often uses a "flow chart" to determine the course of action... because following the "flow chart" generally gets the patient to the right course of action.
Maybe that's where improvement is needed... finding better ways to determine when the "flow chart" isn't the best course of action and when it is.

It's gotta suck for the parents... their son died and they are blaming it on a vaccine when hundreds of millions (maybe a billion -- haven't checked the numbers in a while) of other people around the world got the vaccine and didn't die from it. They have to be asking why their son...


(I liken it to the olden days of Chickenpox when people were like "hey it's no big deal, it's just something that kids get. I don't need to vaccinate my kids" which was all fine and good until it was YOUR kid (or a kid you knew or an Adult you knew) that died from getting chickenpox. (before the vaccine - about 100 people (kids and adults) died from Chickenpox every year in the US...)

[djAdvocate]

Dec 20, 2023 16:52:28 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

Read this. Based on what I saw, it was a shoddily done autopsy, with insupportable conclusions without other testing done. He had multi-organ damage, there are a whole host of disease processes that could explain his death, with a vaccine induced myocarditis being way down the list.

this is the "procuring cause of death" issue.  people don't understand it.

if a person with a weakened immune system dies from the common cold, you can certainly say that the cold killed them.  but it would be truer to say that the weakened immune system permitted the cold to kill them, and even a BELOW AVERAGE immune system would have protected him or her.

the fact is that if the vaccine saves more than it kills, and has no lasting effects, it is worth taking.  that is the argument that SHOULD be made FOR it.  an occasional death is worth it for a vaccine that, conservatively, has saved nearly 15 MILLION people.

[Spellbound454]

I talked to loads of people over the pandemic

.....and some were absolutely adamant that they were not going to take the vaccine ... (thought they were being poisoned, or whatever)

A story like this just reinforced, to them,  that they were right all along.

I guess its one of those occasions,  where the causes are unclear...... and you read into it whatever you want.

[pulmonarymd]

The only reasons that the causes are unclear is because they didn't investigate further after seeing what they did at the autopsy. They may a declaration without questioning it validity. 

This is an ongoing and worsening problem in the US. We are underfunding Medical Examiners offices. As a result, fewer autopsies are done. In addition, outside of major metropolitan areas, an ME may not be a pathologist, and sometimes not even a physician. Unless they contract for those services, the minimum necessary gets done, leading to shoddy work. 

[busymom]

I have ties to 8 people who died from Covid.  Including our friend here, Wisconsin Beth.  I've only heard of one person who might have died from the vaccine, a woman with significant heart issues.  With odds like that, I'd rather take my chances with the vaccine.  

[laterbloomer]

I don't think it's helpful to deny that there is a percentage of people who do not respond well to vaccines and some die from it. That is real. It is a small percentage, but it is there. This is why I have never agreed with forced vaccination. Before you freak out, I do believe in mandatory masking when you will be in contact with the public.

The question for me when deciding about getting vaccinated is which risk is bigger, dying from the vaccine or dying from Covid. And honestly I don't know what the risk is from Covid these days, they have stopped talking about it. I don't know if we have effective treatments now or what.

[laterbloomer]

Dec 21, 2023 11:08:22 GMT -5 busymom said:

I have ties to 8 people who died from Covid.  Including our friend here, Wisconsin Beth.  I've only heard of one person who might have died from the vaccine, a woman with significant heart issues.  With odds like that, I'd rather take my chances with the vaccine.  

This would be what we call anecdotal evidence. I would love to see real statistics on it. 

[bean29]

I did not know Beth died from Covid, I thought it was her Cancer that killed her.

[pulmonarymd]

Dec 21, 2023 11:49:59 GMT -5 laterbloomer said:

I don't think it's helpful to deny that there is a percentage of people who do not respond well to vaccines and some die from it. That is real. It is a small percentage, but it is there. This is why I have never agreed with forced vaccination. Before you freak out, I do believe in mandatory masking when you will be in contact with the public.

The question for me when deciding about getting vaccinated is which risk is bigger, dying from the vaccine or dying from Covid. And honestly I don't know what the risk is from Covid these days, they have stopped talking about it. I don't know if we have effective treatments now or what.

The risk of dying from COVID, is, and always will be higher than the risk of vaccination. No amount of mental gymnastics changes that

[laterbloomer]

"Based on what I saw, it was a shoddily done autopsy, with insupportable conclusions without other testing done. He had multi-organ damage, there are a whole host of disease processes that could explain his death, with a vaccine induced myocarditis being way down the list."

I don't like discrediting medical professionals when I disagree with their conclusions. We ridicule anti vaxers who do that, it's disingenuous to do it ourselves.

[pulmonarymd]

Dec 21, 2023 12:03:59 GMT -5 laterbloomer said:

"Based on what I saw, it was a shoddily done autopsy, with insupportable conclusions without other testing done. He had multi-organ damage, there are a whole host of disease processes that could explain his death, with a vaccine induced myocarditis being way down the list."

I don't like discrediting medical professionals when I disagree with their conclusions. We ridicule anti vaxers who do that, it's disingenuous to do it ourselves.

Read the article. There were numerous findings that do not fit the conclusions as to the cause of death. I am giving an honest medical opinion based on published reports. It is not done off the cuff, and is completely different than anti-vaxxers. Unless nobody is allowed to criticize anything.


The conclusions made do not fit the facts

[Tiny]

I've read the article a couple of times - and had a hard time figuring out the time line.

He received his first dose on Aug. 27, 2021, four days after the Food and Drug Administration gave it its full approval.

Shortly after receiving his second dose, on Sept. 17, George Jr. started feeling pain in his heels, according to medical records and his father’s account. By early October, his fingers started going numb, and he had difficulty holding onto objects.

By mid-October, his father was so concerned that he drove him to the emergency room. Among other things, George Jr. had the markers of an upper respiratory infection: sinus congestion, a sore throat and a cough. An X-ray showed no abnormalities or fluid in his lungs, according to a summary of the visit from the coroner’s report. He said he didn’t have chest pain or shortness of breath, according to the coroner’s investigation, two common symptoms among myocarditis patients.

Doctors diagnosed him with a sinus infection and bronchitis and prescribed antibiotics. He also started taking NyQuil.

A week later, George Jr. was rushed back to the emergency room after coughing so much that he started vomiting. Doctors found no obvious lung problems, his heart wasn’t enlarged, and there were no signs of cardiac issues, according to the coroner’s report.

If there were clear signs of myocarditis, doctors would most likely have monitored George Jr. and prescribed drugs, like blood pressure medications, beta blockers or corticosteroids.

(from earlier in the article and to add some clarity to the time line: he collapsed on Oct. 27, 2021.)

Eight days after his emergency room visit, George Jr. collapsed and died. His body was transported 40 minutes east, to Binghamton, for an autopsy at Lourdes Hospital.

So the young man was more or less sick/not feeling well and getting worse from From the end of September until he died on October 27. The cause of his death sounds more like a failure of our healthcare system than having gotten the vaccine.

What I REALLY want to know is how does his family not suspect the Nyquil he was taking as the cause of his death
(Ok, that's a little sarcastic and snarky - but why does Nyquil get a pass but the vaccine doesn't? What if Nyquil made whatever underlying illness he had worse - much worse (by masking the symptoms)?? yeah, lets complicate this...)

[Ryan]

I think the medical community needs to stop being so dismissive about possible side effects of any vaccines.  My wife had terrible hives about 10 days after a COVID booster shot and all the doctors (general practitioner, dermatologist, etc).  She went back to her job and talked to 2 co-workers that experienced the same thing and one of them said her Doctor told her they had been seeing a lot of this after the patient got the COVID vaccine.

When she asked her doctor, the doctor seemed to get defensive and say it could've been anything.  It could even be worse if they had actually gotten covid.  

That kind of stuff just pisses people off.  Don't tell me that I could've still had these symptoms with actual COVID, they have no idea what I would've experienced.  They are so quick to try to explain why someone is better off and defect blame away from the vaccine that they don't realize the damage they are doing.  By the way, my wife STILL has hives (less serious now) 2 years after the vaccine.  

[busymom]

Dec 21, 2023 12:02:13 GMT -5 bean29 said:

I did not know Beth died from Covid, I thought it was her Cancer that killed her.

     Someone accidentally deleted the "what are you doing now" thread, and we had to begin it again, but if I remember her posts correctly, she was battling cancer when she caught Covid. She didn't need that on top of what she was already dealing with.  I still miss her.  

[laterbloomer]

Dec 21, 2023 12:56:58 GMT -5 Ryan said:

I think the medical community needs to stop being so dismissive about possible side effects of any vaccines.  My wife had terrible hives about 10 days after a COVID booster shot and all the doctors (general practitioner, dermatologist, etc).  She went back to her job and talked to 2 co-workers that experienced the same thing and one of them said her Doctor told her they had been seeing a lot of this after the patient got the COVID vaccine.

When she asked her doctor, the doctor seemed to get defensive and say it could've been anything.  It could even be worse if they had actually gotten covid.  

That kind of stuff just pisses people off.  Don't tell me that I could've still had these symptoms with actual COVID, they have no idea what I would've experienced.  They are so quick to try to explain why someone is better off and defect blame away from the vaccine that they don't realize the damage they are doing.  By the way, my wife STILL has hives (less serious now) 2 years after the vaccine.  

In that vein, I have 3 different friends that got vaccinated and have had Covid at least twice. And they have had severe symptoms, just shy of needing to go to the hospital.

I really wish they would report transparent statistics about all this.

[dondubble]

He was already ‘dead’ if at age 24 he lived at his parent’s house playing video games all day long.

[Tiny]

Dec 21, 2023 13:58:28 GMT -5 laterbloomer said:

Dec 21, 2023 12:56:58 GMT -5 Ryan said:

I think the medical community needs to stop being so dismissive about possible side effects of any vaccines.  My wife had terrible hives about 10 days after a COVID booster shot and all the doctors (general practitioner, dermatologist, etc).  She went back to her job and talked to 2 co-workers that experienced the same thing and one of them said her Doctor told her they had been seeing a lot of this after the patient got the COVID vaccine.

When she asked her doctor, the doctor seemed to get defensive and say it could've been anything.  It could even be worse if they had actually gotten covid.  

That kind of stuff just pisses people off.  Don't tell me that I could've still had these symptoms with actual COVID, they have no idea what I would've experienced.  They are so quick to try to explain why someone is better off and defect blame away from the vaccine that they don't realize the damage they are doing.  By the way, my wife STILL has hives (less serious now) 2 years after the vaccine.  

In that vein, I have 3 different friends that got vaccinated and have had Covid at least twice. And they have had severe symptoms, just shy of needing to go to the hospital.

I really wish they would report transparent statistics about all this.

That's easier said than done.    What medical info gets reported to the local government departments  differs from State to State (heck even County by County in each State).   You aren't going get "transparent statistics" immediately.   It's going to take a years as the data that's available gets processed and turned into something useful.   

It's the same thing with how deaths are reported on death certificates (you know how suicide got obscured with other words or just a plain old lie)  

It isn't a "conspiracy" that we don't have transparent statistics - its the way the States and the Federal government collect information. 

I'm sure quite a few people who got the Covid vaccinations  got covid -  just like how getting a flu shot doesn't mean you won't get the flu.    Even the Chickenpox and Measles vaccines aren't 100% effective - but the fact that fewer kids come in contact with someone who has chickenpox or measles means there's fewer outbreaks  and if there is an outbreak those who have been vaccinated have a bit more 'protection' than those who never were vaccinated (and who never had the illness).     


FWIW:  I'm just glad the Covid virus  doesn't 'hide' in your body after you've had it.   I've got chickenpox and the 'cold sore' viruses taking advantage of me.... I don't need anymore of those kinds of free loading "friends for life".  

[Tiny]

Dec 21, 2023 14:39:43 GMT -5 dondubble said:

He was already ‘dead’ if at age 24 he lived at his parent’s house playing video games all day long.

I wouldn't say "dead".    but, yeah, the "going to community college to be a game designer" coupled with playing video games all day long may have just been a nice way to say he doesn't really know what to do with his life OR that he has mental health issues OR that he has some behavioral/medical issues that complicate his life and his transition to living on his own.    there shouldn't be shame attached to any of those things. 

That doesn't diminish the tragedy of his early death or mean it's a good reason for his death. 

[Tiny]

I'm having flash backs to the early 80's. I played D& D.  when it was an instrument of the Devil and evil. Kids were playing the game and getting into drugs and sex and murder and failing school and all sorts of awful things.  "Good kids" didn't play this game.   Good parents didn't let their kids play this game. 

Flash forward to 2015 and a friend was going thru their old stuff (before a move to a new house) and found an old scrap book where they had cut out newspaper articles about the controversy and consequences of kids playing D& D. One of the articles (from 1982) was an interview with the parents of teenage son who committed suicide. The parents blamed D& D.  Sure their son was bullied at school and an "outsider" (aka bullied for being gay). Sure their son had few friends. Sure their son had had problems with grades/school work since 1st grade but he always got passed to the next grade (maybe he had a learning disability?? it was the 80s so who knows). but boy o boy once he found some friends to play D& D with, that's when his parents forbid him to hang with those "friends and their devil game"... and after that their son committed suicide. There son had no reason to do such a thing before he started playing that game.

We (my gaming group) read the article before a gaming session. As adults (some of us with kids of our own). And we all felt the parents pain. And the pain of the son (getting thru day to day life). It wasn't D& that planted the idea of suicide in the kid's head. It wasn't D& D that pushed him to take his life.   We had a good conversation about how times had changed, and how some kids were getting support for their issues (mental or physical). And how suicide was something that needed to be talked about not hidden away. 


The Covid 19 article reads a little like the article of the interview with the parents about their son's death caused by playing D& D. A need to find some single cause or reason why such a terrible thing happened to their son.


Mind you the US Post office will be selling D& D themed stamps soon.

[laterbloomer]

Dec 21, 2023 14:44:11 GMT -5 Tiny said:

Dec 21, 2023 13:58:28 GMT -5 laterbloomer said:

In that vein, I have 3 different friends that got vaccinated and have had Covid at least twice. And they have had severe symptoms, just shy of needing to go to the hospital.

I really wish they would report transparent statistics about all this.

That's easier said than done.    What medical info gets reported to the local government departments  differs from State to State (heck even County by County in each State).   You aren't going get "transparent statistics" immediately.   It's going to take a years as the data that's available gets processed and turned into something useful.   

It's the same thing with how deaths are reported on death certificates (you know how suicide got obscured with other words or just a plain old lie)  

It isn't a "conspiracy" that we don't have transparent statistics - its the way the States and the Federal government collect information. 

I'm sure quite a few people who got the Covid vaccinations  got covid -  just like how getting a flu shot doesn't mean you won't get the flu.    Even the Chickenpox and Measles vaccines aren't 100% effective - but the fact that fewer kids come in contact with someone who has chickenpox or measles means there's fewer outbreaks  and if there is an outbreak those who have been vaccinated have a bit more 'protection' than those who never were vaccinated (and who never had the illness).     


FWIW:  I'm just glad the Covid virus  doesn't 'hide' in your body after you've had it.   I've got chickenpox and the 'cold sore' viruses taking advantage of me.... I don't need anymore of those kinds of free loading "friends for life".  

I classify "transparent" as "what we know right now without fudging the info". I have seen NOTHING about this except the conspiracy theorists. The silence from the pro vaccine side about how effective the measures taken were has been deafening. 

[pulmonarymd]

I guess the fact that the hospitals and ICU aren't full and deaths are down significantly doesn't count

[The Walk of the Penguin Mich]

Dec 21, 2023 12:02:13 GMT -5 bean29 said:

I did not know Beth died from Covid, I thought it was her Cancer that killed her.

Me too.  

[The Walk of the Penguin Mich]

Dec 21, 2023 16:02:12 GMT -5 laterbloomer said:

Dec 21, 2023 14:44:11 GMT -5 Tiny said:

That's easier said than done.    What medical info gets reported to the local government departments  differs from State to State (heck even County by County in each State).   You aren't going get "transparent statistics" immediately.   It's going to take a years as the data that's available gets processed and turned into something useful.   

It's the same thing with how deaths are reported on death certificates (you know how suicide got obscured with other words or just a plain old lie)  

It isn't a "conspiracy" that we don't have transparent statistics - its the way the States and the Federal government collect information. 

I'm sure quite a few people who got the Covid vaccinations  got covid -  just like how getting a flu shot doesn't mean you won't get the flu.    Even the Chickenpox and Measles vaccines aren't 100% effective - but the fact that fewer kids come in contact with someone who has chickenpox or measles means there's fewer outbreaks  and if there is an outbreak those who have been vaccinated have a bit more 'protection' than those who never were vaccinated (and who never had the illness).     


FWIW:  I'm just glad the Covid virus  doesn't 'hide' in your body after you've had it.   I've got chickenpox and the 'cold sore' viruses taking advantage of me.... I don't need anymore of those kinds of free loading "friends for life".  

I classify "transparent" as "what we know right now without fudging the info". I have seen NOTHING about this except the conspiracy theorists. The silence from the pro vaccine side about how effective the measures taken were has been deafening. 

The statistics have been all over the place.  Not so much now, but when covid was killing millions the data was out there.  

[The Walk of the Penguin Mich]

Dec 21, 2023 16:12:35 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

I guess the fact that the hospitals and ICU aren't full and deaths are down significantly doesn't count

Of course not.  /s

There is a woman on one of my AVN groups who is convinced that her covid vaccine was the cause of her AVN.  She thinks that the spike protein produced by the mRNA vaccine was sufficient to cause the vessels in her bones to occlude.  I pointed out to her that they know that the virus causes vessels to occlude and there is a definable increase in AVN due to people who have both had covid, and have had covid and were treated with high doses of steroids.  

It all becomes a risk analysis.  They KNOW covid might cause AVN.  They know the steroids commonly used to prevent covid death might cause AVN.  There is not definitive data that the spike protein that the vaccine produces causes AVN.  So where do you want to take your risk? 

I caught covid while on our cruise.  I got vaccinated about 2 weeks before we left FL in Dec, and we were in the Med in early May when I 'caught' it.  I felt 'punky' for 24 hours, and had very bad cabin fever for the next 4 days I was isolated.  I'm guessing that if I had been contagious, it was in the few days leading up to the day feeling punky (I didn't feel sick, I was tired but that was it).  TD spent the rest of my isolation going and doing as long as he continued to test negative.  He never caught it, despite sleeping in the same bed.

[pulmonarymd]

Dec 21, 2023 16:02:12 GMT -5 laterbloomer said:

Dec 21, 2023 14:44:11 GMT -5 Tiny said:

That's easier said than done.    What medical info gets reported to the local government departments  differs from State to State (heck even County by County in each State).   You aren't going get "transparent statistics" immediately.   It's going to take a years as the data that's available gets processed and turned into something useful.   

It's the same thing with how deaths are reported on death certificates (you know how suicide got obscured with other words or just a plain old lie)  

It isn't a "conspiracy" that we don't have transparent statistics - its the way the States and the Federal government collect information. 

I'm sure quite a few people who got the Covid vaccinations  got covid -  just like how getting a flu shot doesn't mean you won't get the flu.    Even the Chickenpox and Measles vaccines aren't 100% effective - but the fact that fewer kids come in contact with someone who has chickenpox or measles means there's fewer outbreaks  and if there is an outbreak those who have been vaccinated have a bit more 'protection' than those who never were vaccinated (and who never had the illness).     


FWIW:  I'm just glad the Covid virus  doesn't 'hide' in your body after you've had it.   I've got chickenpox and the 'cold sore' viruses taking advantage of me.... I don't need anymore of those kinds of free loading "friends for life".  

I classify "transparent" as "what we know right now without fudging the info". I have seen NOTHING about this except the conspiracy theorists. The silence from the pro vaccine side about how effective the measures taken were has been deafening. 

Everyone in Canada talks about how much better the system in Canada is. Have they reported anything to your satisfaction?

A county by county analysis showed that before the vaccine, deaths were higher in "blue" areas. Once the vaccine was available, this changed, and the "red" areas now have higher mortality.

This is complicated by how political this has gotten, and states in conservative areas are not reporting(or actually reporting disinformation), making the collection of statistics difficult. Not to mention that public health budgets are tight, and emergency funding and declarations have expired, so again, collecting data is difficult.

There are studies being reported in medical journals all the time in regards to COVID. Doing good science takes time, and we will be looking at things in retrospect.

But sure, nobody is doing anything

[laterbloomer]

Dec 21, 2023 16:15:32 GMT -5 The Walk of the Penguin Mich said:

Dec 21, 2023 16:02:12 GMT -5 laterbloomer said:

I classify "transparent" as "what we know right now without fudging the info". I have seen NOTHING about this except the conspiracy theorists. The silence from the pro vaccine side about how effective the measures taken were has been deafening. 

The statistics have been all over the place.  Not so much now, but when covid was killing millions the data was out there.  

Wouldn't now be when we would be able to review the data and say how effective the measures taken were? 

[laterbloomer]

"I guess the fact that the hospitals and ICU aren't full and deaths are down significantly doesn't count"

Not really. From what I have read pandemics generally last about 2 years without intervention. We are coming up on the 3 year mark. At this point the hospitals wouldn't be full if we had taken no measures.