Behind the Birth of an Anti-Vaccine Story

[djAdvocate]

Dec 21, 2023 13:58:28 GMT -5 laterbloomer said:

Dec 21, 2023 12:56:58 GMT -5 Ryan said:

I think the medical community needs to stop being so dismissive about possible side effects of any vaccines.  My wife had terrible hives about 10 days after a COVID booster shot and all the doctors (general practitioner, dermatologist, etc).  She went back to her job and talked to 2 co-workers that experienced the same thing and one of them said her Doctor told her they had been seeing a lot of this after the patient got the COVID vaccine.

When she asked her doctor, the doctor seemed to get defensive and say it could've been anything.  It could even be worse if they had actually gotten covid.  

That kind of stuff just pisses people off.  Don't tell me that I could've still had these symptoms with actual COVID, they have no idea what I would've experienced.  They are so quick to try to explain why someone is better off and defect blame away from the vaccine that they don't realize the damage they are doing.  By the way, my wife STILL has hives (less serious now) 2 years after the vaccine.  

In that vein, I have 3 different friends that got vaccinated and have had Covid at least twice. And they have had severe symptoms, just shy of needing to go to the hospital.

I really wish they would report transparent statistics about all this.

you know that the vaccine is not a prophylactic, right?

[djAdvocate]

Dec 21, 2023 16:32:27 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

Dec 21, 2023 16:02:12 GMT -5 laterbloomer said:

I classify "transparent" as "what we know right now without fudging the info". I have seen NOTHING about this except the conspiracy theorists. The silence from the pro vaccine side about how effective the measures taken were has been deafening. 

Everyone in Canada talks about how much better the system in Canada is. Have they reported anything to your satisfaction?

A county by county analysis showed that before the vaccine, deaths were higher in "blue" areas. Once the vaccine was available, this changed, and the "red" areas now have higher mortality.

This is complicated by how political this has gotten, and states in conservative areas are not reporting(or actually reporting disinformation), making the collection of statistics difficult. Not to mention that public health budgets are tight, and emergency funding and declarations have expired, so again, collecting data is difficult.

There are studies being reported in medical journals all the time in regards to COVID. Doing good science takes time, and we will be looking at things in retrospect.

But sure, nobody is doing anything

the FACT that there were red and blue areas with different infection rates is testimony to us fucking up royal.  in countries where this was treated like a deadly disease that could only be treated with a vaccine, infection rates were much lower.  in places like ours, where our leaders were NOT showing a uniform front against the disease, people took matters into their own hands.

i will repeat this again: in New Zealand, the excess death rate was NEGATIVE.  why?  because masking prevented the NORMAL disease path in the country that kills a small percentage of people every year.  

if we had done as well as New Zealand, 1M more Americans would be alive today.  it is a failure of leadership, not a failure of medicine, that got us here, and continues to kill 50-200 people per day, depending on the day.

[djAdvocate]

Dec 21, 2023 17:22:55 GMT -5 Tiny said:

Dec 21, 2023 17:01:21 GMT -5 laterbloomer said:

"I guess the fact that the hospitals and ICU aren't full and deaths are down significantly doesn't count"

Not really. From what I have read pandemics generally last about 2 years without intervention. We are coming up on the 3 year mark. At this point the hospitals wouldn't be full if we had taken no measures.

You want to look at death rates. and then Death rates by country.

precisely right.  excess mortality.  it is the gold standard.

it reveals that our Covid deaths were underreported by about 20%.
and that is not even that bad.
in Russia, the number was more like 100%.

[djAdvocate]

Dec 21, 2023 18:07:40 GMT -5 Pink Cashmere said:

Dec 21, 2023 17:30:10 GMT -5 Tiny said:

FWIW:  it might not be "obtuseness"  it might a "math" thing...  it's hard to conceptualize a million of anything.   It's hard to conceptualize why no one you know is getting sick (the 150 or so people in your circles)  but yet the news is reporting thousands of people dying a day in the US.     We're human.  It's hard.  

On the other end of that, it is difficult for me to imagine not knowing anyone that got very sick and/or died from COVID. Several people that worked in my building died from it. Several more were hospitalized and very sick for months from it. I have 3 friends whose Moms died from it. I know quite a few people that lost loved ones, friends and family, due to COVID, some of them lost several family members because of it. It easily adds up to dozens of people that I directly or indirectly know/knew, that either died, or got very, very sick, but managed to survive it.

All of that made it very real to me, and easy for me to believe the numbers of deaths being reported. 

we all know people that died from Covid.  we might not have known them well, but we know them.  i don't get how anyone can say that they don't know anyone that did.

[djAdvocate]

Dec 22, 2023 6:35:21 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

These studies have been done. People are just ignoring it. Again, in The NY Times, a study look at pre and post vaccination incidence of Covid and death. Surprise, places with higher uptake of the vaccine had fewer cases. Why is this controversial or difficult to understand. People are being purposely obtuse

or they are subjecting themselves to a continuous stream of lies on formats like Facebook.  

the vaccine saved 15M people.  it could have saved 16M if we had a uniform front in the US, and treated the virus as a killer rather than "the flu" that would just "magically go away".  those are direct quotes, btw, from our "leadership".

[djAdvocate]

Dec 22, 2023 9:42:43 GMT -5 Tiny said:

Dec 22, 2023 6:35:21 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

These studies have been done. People are just ignoring it. Again, in The NY Times, a study look at pre and post vaccination incidence of Covid and death. Surprise, places with higher uptake of the vaccine had fewer cases. Why is this controversial or difficult to understand. People are being purposely obtuse

I with pulmonarymd on this.    there's lots of science that's been done.    It sucks that it didn't give absolute answer/one and done answers - but then we rarely get absolute answers in life or from science.   It also sucks that it didn't give answers that we "wanted" or "expected" or that matched up with our perception of how the world works.   That is also pretty common.   It also sucks that science often builds on itself.  So the answers sometime change over time as new information or studies happen.   

that is indeed an issue.  we have a universe of "experts" that have no scientific background and make wild and reassuring claims about things they know nothing about.  and now those "experts" have the internet.  the MISINFORMATION is presented in a FAR MORE REASSURING WAY than science is.  

if Trump had stood up in the early days and say "until a vaccine is delivered, all Americans are at risk for the disease.  so, mask up, do not congregate indoors for over 15 minutes, and get tested* often", we would have saved 1M people in the US.

*the other failure was the failure to test.  we should have had MANDATORY and widespread testing in the US.  that was a serious failure on the part of Trump and the Trump administration.

[tallguy]

Dec 24, 2023 11:31:33 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

Dec 21, 2023 18:07:40 GMT -5 Pink Cashmere said:

On the other end of that, it is difficult for me to imagine not knowing anyone that got very sick and/or died from COVID. Several people that worked in my building died from it. Several more were hospitalized and very sick for months from it. I have 3 friends whose Moms died from it. I know quite a few people that lost loved ones, friends and family, due to COVID, some of them lost several family members because of it. It easily adds up to dozens of people that I directly or indirectly know/knew, that either died, or got very, very sick, but managed to survive it.

All of that made it very real to me, and easy for me to believe the numbers of deaths being reported. 

we all know people that died from Covid.  we might not have known them well, but we know them.  i don't get how anyone can say that they don't know anyone that did.

If it matters, I don't.  Of course I am not particularly social and don't see or keep in touch with many people.  If anyone I know did die, I haven't heard about it.  I do know that a couple relatives of one of my GF's friends died of COVID, but I didn't know them.  Have no idea if she knew any others.  I do know a couple of her friends who apparently got very ill early on before vaccines were available, but they recovered.  That's as far as I go.

[djAdvocate]

Dec 22, 2023 11:05:19 GMT -5 Ryan said:

Dec 22, 2023 0:06:48 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

There are quite a few thing which could trigger the hives. The three women in the office contracting the hives and blaming it on the Covid vaccine is very coincidental and questionable as to what caused it.

Causes of hives due to allergic reaction and the triggers include:
Emotional stress
Certain medications
Infection
Sunlight
Food - such as allergic to nuts
Dust
Fabric texture
Certain metals

I know hundreds of people who got the Covid vaccine and nothing worse for a few of them than a slight pain in the shoulder where the needle was jabbed into them.

I don't care whether or not you believe me, but your response is part of the reason people get pissed.  The medical community is very quick to explain away any issues people have with the vaccine.  I'm your average US citizen, I own a house, I don't believe in conspiracy theories, I have a wife/kids, college educated, etc.  I have no doubt in my mind that the hives were triggered by the vaccine, it completely lines up with the timeline of other people's experiences (and there are a lot).  The hives were intense right after the vaccine and have slowly lessened, but still flare up if she doesn't take zertec every couple days.  

that might be your problem, right there.  having no doubt.

i doubt everything.  and that is what drives me to research things.  and when i do, i usually discover that i have every reason to doubt my suspicions.

[djAdvocate]

Dec 24, 2023 11:43:12 GMT -5 tallguy said:

Dec 24, 2023 11:31:33 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

we all know people that died from Covid.  we might not have known them well, but we know them.  i don't get how anyone can say that they don't know anyone that did.

If it matters, I don't.  

i wouldn't be so sure of that.  if you want to know why, PM me.

[djAdvocate]

Dec 23, 2023 17:09:44 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

Dec 23, 2023 16:18:19 GMT -5 tallguy said:

No, it's not.

A couple hundred million people do not die in car accidents every day in this country.  Some of those might be injured but those injuries are less severe because of seat belt or airbag use.  You can even find examples of people being injured by the seat belt or airbag.  Should the friends and relatives of the 100+ who DO die in traffic accidents each day stop using cars?  Stop using seat belts?  Disconnect their airbags?  Seems pretty similar.  A voluntary action which does not necessarily prevent injury, but is surely beneficial for an overwhelming number of people, and which may (anecdotally) have injured a minuscule number?  Seems like the analogy holds....

Perfect analogy. It is a completely utilitarian argument from society’s point of view. Too many people seem to think we have no responsibility to anyone else. It is all about their rights. And when it comes to vaccines, the argument is even stronger, as your refusal puts many people st risk, whereas refusing to wear a seatbelt affects only a few(unless we make an economic argument from society’s viewpoint)

i will mention again that it did not NEED to be seen this way.

we COULD have had a "unified front" on this disease.  we SHOULD have had one, were it not for ineffective leadership.  if anything, our "unified front" was to dismiss the disease as something that would "magically disappear".  you and i both know that that is not how viruses work.  in fact, this virus is genetically related to the Spanish Flu.  so, essentially, this virus has been around LONGER THAN ANYONE ALIVE TODAY.  and if Trump didn't have the education of a 3rd grader, he would know that.  the CORRECT thing to say was not that this will magically disappear, but that it will NEVER disappear.  that it will become part of our annual set of vaccines, if we choose to get them, or a potential death threat if we don't.  

but Trump wanted to downplay the virus.  that is what he told Bob Woodward repeatedly, against Woodward's dire warnings.  and the result is that 1M people unnecessarily died.  he should be held to account for it.

[tallguy]

Dec 24, 2023 11:48:09 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

Dec 24, 2023 11:43:12 GMT -5 tallguy said:

If it matters, I don't.  

i wouldn't be so sure of that.  if you want to know why, PM me.

I did say, "If anyone I know did die, I haven't heard about it."

Are you are going to tell me that someone here did?  Go ahead and message me.

[djAdvocate]

Dec 23, 2023 17:27:54 GMT -5 laterbloomer said:

Dec 23, 2023 16:18:19 GMT -5 tallguy said:

No, it's not.

A couple hundred million people do not die in car accidents every day in this country.  Some of those might be injured but those injuries are less severe because of seat belt or airbag use.  You can even find examples of people being injured by the seat belt or airbag.  Should the friends and relatives of the 100+ who DO die in traffic accidents each day stop using cars?  Stop using seat belts?  Disconnect their airbags?  Seems pretty similar.  A voluntary action which does not necessarily prevent injury, but is surely beneficial for an overwhelming number of people, and which may (anecdotally) have injured a minuscule number?  Seems like the analogy holds....

Interesting example. Do you know that kids under 12 sit in the back seat because they can be killed by the air bag deploying? You know how they know that? Because they did not assume that air bags had nothing to do with the deaths of young children in car accidents. Guess why young children have special car seats and aren't just strapped in with a regular seatbelt.

did you know that the automobile industry fought seatbelt legislation for cost reasons?

there are a lot of competing variables in societies such as the US.  don't assume that just because something is safer that people will uniformly advocate for it.

[djAdvocate]

Dec 24, 2023 11:55:51 GMT -5 tallguy said:

Dec 24, 2023 11:48:09 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

i wouldn't be so sure of that.  if you want to know why, PM me.

I did say, "If anyone I know did die, I haven't heard about it."

i didn't get that far.  i only read your first sentence.  

[tallguy]

Dec 24, 2023 11:58:58 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

Dec 24, 2023 11:55:51 GMT -5 tallguy said:

I did say, "If anyone I know did die, I haven't heard about it."

i didn't get that far.  i only read your first sentence.  

I find that terribly disappointing.  You know that every word is gold.  

[djAdvocate]

Dec 24, 2023 1:23:10 GMT -5 mollyc said:

So here are some links regarding adverse reactions to Covid-19 vaccines:

Adverse Events Following Immunization with COVID-19 Vaccines December 13, 2020 to January 28, 2023

BC decided that after the Feb 3/23 report:

"While COVID-19 vaccination continues to be offered, the reporting of these events has declined dramatically since the start of the program. Regular reports about adverse events following immunization will be reported by BCCDC in relation to all vaccines, including COVID-19 vaccines, in the future."

Key Findings

• As of January 28, 2023, there have been 14,108,529 COVID-19 vaccine doses administered

in BC and 6,131 COVID-19 AEFI reports (43.5 reports per 100,000 doses administered)

• 485 reports (7.9%) met the serious definition, for a rate of 3.4 per 100,000 doses

administered

• The most frequently reported events were other allergic event, anaesthesia/paraesthesia,

and injection site pain/swelling/redness

• Other events have been less frequently reported and are detailed below

Adverse Events Following Immunization (AEFIs) for COVID-19 in Ontario: December 13, 2020 to December 3, 2023

Highlights

There are a total of 23,127 AEFI reports received following 39,806,128 doses of COVID-19 vaccines

administered in Ontario to date with a reporting rate of 58.1 per 100,000 doses administered (0.06 % of all

doses administered). This represents an increase of 83 new AEFI reports compared to the previous report.

Of the total 23,127 AEFI reports received to date:

 21,863 AEFI reports are non-serious (94.5% of total AEFI reports)

 1,264 AEFI reports meet the serious definition (5.5% of total AEFI reports)

 The most commonly reported adverse events are ‘other severe or unusual events’ and ‘allergic

skin reactions’, reported in 28.3% and 22.5% of the total AEFI reports, respectively

 1,753 reports include a COVID-19 vaccine-specific adverse event of special interest, in which

763 reports also meet the serious definition (see Adverse events of special interest section for

more information)

To date, two safety signals have been confirmed for COVID-19 vaccines based on AEFIs reported in

Canada during the COVID-19 vaccination program roll-out: Thrombosis with thrombocytopenia

syndrome (TTS) and myocarditis/pericarditis. These two signals were also detected internationally. Refer

to the Adverse Event section of this report for more information. Ontario is continuing to monitor all

AEFIs reported following receipt of COVID-19 immunization in collaboration with its partners.

Reported side effects following COVID-19 vaccination in Canada includes data up to Sep 15/23

Of the 57,436 individual reports (0.058% of all doses administered), 11,231 were considered serious (0.011% of all doses administered).

A total of 99,034,764 vaccine doses have been administered in Canada as of September 15, 2023, including 9,611,886 bivalent doses.

Of these, 947 were following a bivalent vaccine, of which 692 were considered non-serious (0.007% of bivalent COVID-19 doses administered) and 255 (0.003% of bivalent COVID-19 doses administered) were considered serious.

ain't science wonderful?

how do these adverse reaction rates compare to aspirin, the annual flu vaccine, and the MRR vaccine?  i would guess they are the same or lower, and yet we here no hue and cry about those.

[djAdvocate]

Dec 24, 2023 7:37:28 GMT -5 scgal said:

The bottom line is most people are ok with the risk which is small and some are not ok with it. It doesn't matter. I had the vaccine when it came out I will not vac again. It is my choice it doesn't affect anyone else. 

small correction: it is your choice so long as you don't infect anyone else.  but you might point out that you can infect other people even if you are vaccinated, which is TRUE.  it is just far less likely.

[Ryan]

Dec 24, 2023 11:46:41 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

Dec 22, 2023 11:05:19 GMT -5 Ryan said:

I don't care whether or not you believe me, but your response is part of the reason people get pissed.  The medical community is very quick to explain away any issues people have with the vaccine.  I'm your average US citizen, I own a house, I don't believe in conspiracy theories, I have a wife/kids, college educated, etc.  I have no doubt in my mind that the hives were triggered by the vaccine, it completely lines up with the timeline of other people's experiences (and there are a lot).  The hives were intense right after the vaccine and have slowly lessened, but still flare up if she doesn't take zertec every couple days.  

that might be your problem, right there.  having no doubt.

i doubt everything.  and that is what drives me to research things.  and when i do, i usually discover that i have every reason to doubt my suspicions.

I'm sure you can see the issue here, it seems pretty obvious to me.  Doctors are perfectly fine jumping to conclusions when it supports their narrative (COVID kills, Vaccines save).  If it goes against their narrative, then they bring out the "Well, it really could've been anything".  

I come in, no agenda, and say that I had a massive reaction to the vaccine and they'll try to tell me it's something else.  I go from maybe just wanting an acknowledgement to being massively pissed off that this doctor is just dismissing something that seems very obvious.  They won't even include it as one of the possible causes.

It's kinda like me seeing a COVID patient that has heart disease, diabetes, and general poor health.  I could say "Well, you don't really know that he died of COVID.  He could've died of really any kind of virus that you just don't know about.  It's impossible to say".  

[djAdvocate]

Dec 24, 2023 2:22:35 GMT -5 Opti said:

Dec 23, 2023 17:27:54 GMT -5 laterbloomer said:

Interesting example. Do you know that kids under 12 sit in the back seat because they can be killed by the air bag deploying? You know how they know that? Because they did not assume that air bags had nothing to do with the deaths of young children in car accidents. Guess why young children have special car seats and aren't just strapped in with a regular seatbelt.

And once upon a time there were no airbags. In fact, if you buy an old enough car, air bags do not exist. Tire sensors do not exist. Things change and products evolve because of issues or concerns. Some of us underfunded folks are shopping cars old enough to be in the category. I like the safety of real physical keys over drive by wire, but eventually my concerns over that will be addressed. There is no perfect. Its medicine not binary logic. 

there is always a tension between safety and freedom.  Trump tragically exaggerated that difference in the case of COVID for sake of his politics.

i think that pmd's post about Ebola was highly illustrative.  ValueBuy went on for MONTHS about how Ebola would wipe out the US.  i pointed out to him how difficult (relatively speaking) it was to transmit this disease, and that it would LIKELY die a quiet death with minimal intervention.

fast forward to 2020.  Trump and others downplayed CV the way i downplayed Ebola, despite the fact that it was highly infectious.  it killed 1M people.

the difference in those two cases?  i relied on SCIENCE and EVIDENCE to determine what would happen in those two cases.  Trump and VB did not.

[djAdvocate]

Dec 24, 2023 12:14:39 GMT -5 Ryan said:

Dec 24, 2023 11:46:41 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

that might be your problem, right there.  having no doubt.

i doubt everything.  and that is what drives me to research things.  and when i do, i usually discover that i have every reason to doubt my suspicions.

I'm sure you can see the issue here, it seems pretty obvious to me.  Doctors are perfectly fine jumping to conclusions when it supports their narrative (COVID kills, Vaccines save).  If it goes against their narrative, then they bring out the "Well, it really could've been anything".  

you're right.  i am not seeing that narrative.  and no amount of admonishment on your part is going to cause me to do so.

i am pretty sure that i and others addressed the bottom part of your post, already.  let me know if i am wrong.

[djAdvocate]

Dec 24, 2023 12:14:39 GMT -5 Ryan said:

I come in, no agenda, and say that I had a massive reaction to the vaccine and they'll try to tell me it's something else.  I go from maybe just wanting an acknowledgement to being massively pissed off that this doctor is just dismissing something that seems very obvious.  They won't even include it as one of the possible causes.

It's kinda like me seeing a COVID patient that has heart disease, diabetes, and general poor health.  I could say "Well, you don't really know that he died of COVID.  He could've died of really any kind of virus that you just don't know about.  It's impossible to say".  


first of all, i don't like anecdotes.  just letting you know.  i am a generalist when it comes to data.  so what happened to you or people you know won't influence me very much.  no offense.  just how i am built.

as far as the COVID statement, this is why i think we should rely on excess mortality data.  it is often difficult to determine the procuring cause of death.  fortunately, we have REALLY GOOD death statistics, worldwide, and we know the influence of disease on those statistics, within a percentage range.  we should rely on that.

[tallguy]

Dec 24, 2023 12:14:39 GMT -5 Ryan said:

Dec 24, 2023 11:46:41 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

that might be your problem, right there.  having no doubt.

i doubt everything.  and that is what drives me to research things.  and when i do, i usually discover that i have every reason to doubt my suspicions.

I'm sure you can see the issue here, it seems pretty obvious to me.  Doctors are perfectly fine jumping to conclusions when it supports their narrative (COVID kills, Vaccines save).  If it goes against their narrative, then they bring out the "Well, it really could've been anything".  

I come in, no agenda, and say that I had a massive reaction to the vaccine and they'll try to tell me it's something else.  I go from maybe just wanting an acknowledgement to being massively pissed off that this doctor is just dismissing something that seems very obvious.  They won't even include it as one of the possible causes.

It's kinda like me seeing a COVID patient that has heart disease, diabetes, and general poor health.  I could say "Well, you don't really know that he died of COVID.  He could've died of really any kind of virus that you just don't know about.  It's impossible to say".  

Numbers and studies were posted earlier.  Those showed that "serious" adverse reactions to the vaccine occurred in roughly one of every 30,000 persons.  If somebody was one of those 30,000, it seems more like bad luck.  It is NOT of course "bad luck" to you, because you were the one affected, and I get that.  But considering that the chance of being struck by lightning during one's lifetime is estimated at one in 15,300...?  That is not a completely fair comparison, because the chance of an event happening at some point in your lifetime is not directly comparable to something that may happen possibly more than once, but it still boils down to this:  You are twice as likely to get struck by lightning at some point in your life than to have a serious adverse reaction to a single vaccine injection.  I'll take those odds.   

[pulmonarymd]

Dec 24, 2023 12:06:15 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

Dec 24, 2023 1:23:10 GMT -5 mollyc said:

So here are some links regarding adverse reactions to Covid-19 vaccines:

Adverse Events Following Immunization with COVID-19 Vaccines December 13, 2020 to January 28, 2023

BC decided that after the Feb 3/23 report:

"While COVID-19 vaccination continues to be offered, the reporting of these events has declined dramatically since the start of the program. Regular reports about adverse events following immunization will be reported by BCCDC in relation to all vaccines, including COVID-19 vaccines, in the future."

Key Findings

• As of January 28, 2023, there have been 14,108,529 COVID-19 vaccine doses administered

in BC and 6,131 COVID-19 AEFI reports (43.5 reports per 100,000 doses administered)

• 485 reports (7.9%) met the serious definition, for a rate of 3.4 per 100,000 doses

administered

• The most frequently reported events were other allergic event, anaesthesia/paraesthesia,

and injection site pain/swelling/redness

• Other events have been less frequently reported and are detailed below

Adverse Events Following Immunization (AEFIs) for COVID-19 in Ontario: December 13, 2020 to December 3, 2023

Highlights

There are a total of 23,127 AEFI reports received following 39,806,128 doses of COVID-19 vaccines

administered in Ontario to date with a reporting rate of 58.1 per 100,000 doses administered (0.06 % of all

doses administered). This represents an increase of 83 new AEFI reports compared to the previous report.

Of the total 23,127 AEFI reports received to date:

 21,863 AEFI reports are non-serious (94.5% of total AEFI reports)

 1,264 AEFI reports meet the serious definition (5.5% of total AEFI reports)

 The most commonly reported adverse events are ‘other severe or unusual events’ and ‘allergic

skin reactions’, reported in 28.3% and 22.5% of the total AEFI reports, respectively

 1,753 reports include a COVID-19 vaccine-specific adverse event of special interest, in which

763 reports also meet the serious definition (see Adverse events of special interest section for

more information)

To date, two safety signals have been confirmed for COVID-19 vaccines based on AEFIs reported in

Canada during the COVID-19 vaccination program roll-out: Thrombosis with thrombocytopenia

syndrome (TTS) and myocarditis/pericarditis. These two signals were also detected internationally. Refer

to the Adverse Event section of this report for more information. Ontario is continuing to monitor all

AEFIs reported following receipt of COVID-19 immunization in collaboration with its partners.

Reported side effects following COVID-19 vaccination in Canada includes data up to Sep 15/23

Of the 57,436 individual reports (0.058% of all doses administered), 11,231 were considered serious (0.011% of all doses administered).

A total of 99,034,764 vaccine doses have been administered in Canada as of September 15, 2023, including 9,611,886 bivalent doses.

Of these, 947 were following a bivalent vaccine, of which 692 were considered non-serious (0.007% of bivalent COVID-19 doses administered) and 255 (0.003% of bivalent COVID-19 doses administered) were considered serious.

ain't science wonderful?

how do these adverse reaction rates compare to aspirin, the annual flu vaccine, and the MRR vaccine?  i would guess they are the same or lower, and yet we here no hue and cry about those.

Adverse reactions to aspirin include: anaphylaxis, angioedema, bronchospasm, eosinophilic drug reactions, bleeding, gi perforation, gi ulcer, DIC, pancytopenia, thrombocytopenia, agranulocytosis, aplastic anemia, hypoprothrombinemia, nephrotoxicity,hepatotoxicity, salicylism, and Reyes syndrome. Sounds pretty horrifying. I have cared for patients who have had many of these complications. Reyes syndrome is a potentially life threatening illness in children treated with aspirin when they are ill with a viral illness. Maybe we should remove it from the market.

Up to 10% of patients claim to have an allergy to penicillin. 90% do not react on skin testing. And people wonder why doctors are skeptical of patients reporting

[Tennesseer]

Dec 24, 2023 11:43:12 GMT -5 tallguy said:

Dec 24, 2023 11:31:33 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

we all know people that died from Covid.  we might not have known them well, but we know them.  i don't get how anyone can say that they don't know anyone that did.

If it matters, I don't.  Of course I am not particularly social and don't see or keep in touch with many people.  If anyone I know did die, I haven't heard about it.  I do know that a couple relatives of one of my GF's friends died of COVID, but I didn't know them.  Have no idea if she knew any others.  I do know a couple of her friends who apparently got very ill early on before vaccines were available, but they recovered.  That's as far as I go.

I know several folks who died during the early stages of the Covid virus. One of them offered religious comfort (and asked for by the patients) to those in hospice care in hospitals. Covid was raging at the time in the hospitals, senior care facilities and veterans homes. My friend was also in her early eighties at the time of her death.

[djAdvocate]

Dec 24, 2023 13:13:43 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

Dec 24, 2023 12:06:15 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

ain't science wonderful?

how do these adverse reaction rates compare to aspirin, the annual flu vaccine, and the MRR vaccine?  i would guess they are the same or lower, and yet we here no hue and cry about those.

Adverse reactions to aspirin include: anaphylaxis, angioedema, bronchospasm, eosinophilic drug reactions, bleeding, gi perforation, gi ulcer, DIC, pancytopenia, thrombocytopenia, agranulocytosis, aplastic anemia, hypoprothrombinemia, nephrotoxicity,hepatotoxicity, salicylism, and Reyes syndrome. Sounds pretty horrifying. I have cared for patients who have had many of these complications. Reyes syndrome is a potentially life threatening illness in children treated with aspirin when they are ill with a viral illness. Maybe we should remove it from the market.

Up to 10% of patients claim to have an allergy to penicillin. 90% do not react on skin testing. And people wonder why doctors are skeptical of patients reporting

and again, to reiterate- nobody questions the usefulness of penicillin- DESPITE THOSE RISKS.  if you ever have the misfortune to be given this treatment, your doctor will first ask you if you have an allergy, and then inform you of the risks.  and 90% of the time you are going to take that treatment.  why?  because the alternative is far more certain and risky than the treatment.  THIS is the standard we generally use for such things.

the ONLY reason why this is not the case with COVID is that we are constantly being terrorized by forces opposed to the vaccine for what can only be called political reasons.  and it is so shameful and criminal that i can't believe that ANY of us are letting them off the hook at this point.  

embarrassing is far too weak a word.

[Ryan]

Dec 24, 2023 12:33:24 GMT -5 tallguy said:

Dec 24, 2023 12:14:39 GMT -5 Ryan said:

I'm sure you can see the issue here, it seems pretty obvious to me.  Doctors are perfectly fine jumping to conclusions when it supports their narrative (COVID kills, Vaccines save).  If it goes against their narrative, then they bring out the "Well, it really could've been anything".  

I come in, no agenda, and say that I had a massive reaction to the vaccine and they'll try to tell me it's something else.  I go from maybe just wanting an acknowledgement to being massively pissed off that this doctor is just dismissing something that seems very obvious.  They won't even include it as one of the possible causes.

It's kinda like me seeing a COVID patient that has heart disease, diabetes, and general poor health.  I could say "Well, you don't really know that he died of COVID.  He could've died of really any kind of virus that you just don't know about.  It's impossible to say".  

Numbers and studies were posted earlier.  Those showed that "serious" adverse reactions to the vaccine occurred in roughly one of every 30,000 persons.  If somebody was one of those 30,000, it seems more like bad luck.  It is NOT of course "bad luck" to you, because you were the one affected, and I get that.  But considering that the chance of being struck by lightning during one's lifetime is estimated at one in 15,300...?  That is not a completely fair comparison, because the chance of an event happening at some point in your lifetime is not directly comparable to something that may happen possibly more than once, but it still boils down to this:  You are twice as likely to get struck by lightning at some point in your life than to have a serious adverse reaction to a single vaccine injection.  I'll take those odds.   

You can post studies, but see how this plays out in the real world.  First off, this is just serious reactions, so I'm sure my wife's reaction would not be included there.  Second, you have doctors that are gatekeeping the results by telling people what they are experiencing is probably something else.  PulmonaryMD just said this when they said that they are skeptical of patients self reporting.  You also have people that think it's because of the reaction, but never report the results.  

So let's say you have a friend that you know, that is a very level headed person.  They swear up and down that the vaccine gave them hives.  You look around and what do you see?  People with or without vaccines getting COVID and having various level of illness.  So you think "there is a risk to taking the vaccine.  There is a risk to getting COVID.   But taking the vaccine doesn't prevent me from getting COVID"

Given all this, I don't think it's that surprising that people might opt out of the vaccine.  They aren't anti-vaxxers, they just feel like they aren't getting the whole story.

[pulmonarymd]

Studies are the only way that medicine moves forward. Centuries ago, we though bad humors caused disease. Not until Pasteur identified bacteria did the real reason for infectious diseases get discovered, yet for decades, people KNEW he was wrong. women kept dying after childbirth until Semmelweis suggested it was being transmitted by doctors hands, and we needed to wash them between patients. Not very controversial now. It was then. The penicillin story was to show how many people who think they are allergic are wrong, but I guess you do not believe the testing but believe patients just know. FYI-just because 2 things are temporally related does not believe one caused the other. An important thing in medicine that we frequently fail at to the detriment of patients. But continue to rail against physicians. We are used to it

[tallguy]

Dec 24, 2023 14:51:40 GMT -5 Ryan said:

Dec 24, 2023 12:33:24 GMT -5 tallguy said:

Numbers and studies were posted earlier.  Those showed that "serious" adverse reactions to the vaccine occurred in roughly one of every 30,000 persons.  If somebody was one of those 30,000, it seems more like bad luck.  It is NOT of course "bad luck" to you, because you were the one affected, and I get that.  But considering that the chance of being struck by lightning during one's lifetime is estimated at one in 15,300...?  That is not a completely fair comparison, because the chance of an event happening at some point in your lifetime is not directly comparable to something that may happen possibly more than once, but it still boils down to this:  You are twice as likely to get struck by lightning at some point in your life than to have a serious adverse reaction to a single vaccine injection.  I'll take those odds.   

You can post studies, but see how this plays out in the real world.  First off, this is just serious reactions, so I'm sure my wife's reaction would not be included there.  Second, you have doctors that are gatekeeping the results by telling people what they are experiencing is probably something else.  PulmonaryMD just said this when they said that they are skeptical of patients self reporting.  You also have people that think it's because of the reaction, but never report the results.  

So let's say you have a friend that you know, that is a very level headed person.  They swear up and down that the vaccine gave them hives.  You look around and what do you see?  People with or without vaccines getting COVID and having various level of illness.  So you think "there is a risk to taking the vaccine.  There is a risk to getting COVID.   But taking the vaccine doesn't prevent me from getting COVID"

Given all this, I don't think it's that surprising that people might opt out of the vaccine.  They aren't anti-vaxxers, they just feel like they aren't getting the whole story.

I don't recall anyone saying that the vaccine would absolutely prevent you from getting COVID.  What it was touted to do was to make it not be as serious so that you most likely would not die from it.  For a new pandemic virus that we were trying to fight and create vaccines for in real time, what was accomplished was remarkable.  And the data bears that out.  After vaccines were introduced, death rates flipped.  Where the virus had originally hit urban areas first, death rates became much higher in red states where there was political resistance to the vaccines.  I don't recall the efficacy rates precisely, but my recollection is that they were around 95% after the second dose, and nearly 100% against severe hospitalization or death.  I trust PMD can verify or correct the numbers.

[pulmonarymd]

Dec 24, 2023 15:12:26 GMT -5 tallguy said:

Dec 24, 2023 14:51:40 GMT -5 Ryan said:

You can post studies, but see how this plays out in the real world.  First off, this is just serious reactions, so I'm sure my wife's reaction would not be included there.  Second, you have doctors that are gatekeeping the results by telling people what they are experiencing is probably something else.  PulmonaryMD just said this when they said that they are skeptical of patients self reporting.  You also have people that think it's because of the reaction, but never report the results.  

So let's say you have a friend that you know, that is a very level headed person.  They swear up and down that the vaccine gave them hives.  You look around and what do you see?  People with or without vaccines getting COVID and having various level of illness.  So you think "there is a risk to taking the vaccine.  There is a risk to getting COVID.   But taking the vaccine doesn't prevent me from getting COVID"

Given all this, I don't think it's that surprising that people might opt out of the vaccine.  They aren't anti-vaxxers, they just feel like they aren't getting the whole story.

I don't recall anyone saying that the vaccine would absolutely prevent you from getting COVID.  What it was touted to do was to make it not be as serious so that you most likely would not die from it.  For a new pandemic virus that we were trying to fight and create vaccines for in real time, what was accomplished was remarkable.  And the data bears that out.  After vaccines were introduced, death rates flipped.  Where the virus had originally hit urban areas first, death rates became much higher in red states where there was political resistance to the vaccines.  I don't recall the efficacy rates precisely, but my recollection is that they were around 95% after the second dose, and nearly 100% against severe hospitalization or death.  I trust PMD can verify or correct the numbers.

When the vaccines were first being developed, there was debate as to how effective they needed to be to be approved. The consensus was 40-50% was the minimum, and the hope was 70%. There were far better than that. They were 95% effective at preventing SEVERE disease. That is the aim at vaccination, preventing severe disease, i.e.stopping people from being hospitalized and dying. The risk of death in people who were not vaccinated was 7.3-16.3 times higher, depending on the study. ANother study showed that the primary series of vaccination was 86-90% effective at preventing hospitalizations, and 90-93% effective at preventing death at 7 months, and 60-65% and 70-75% respectively at 12 months. I would say they are quite effective. But hey, why let facts get in the way of beliefs and anecdotes. They apparently are not important according to some posters.

[djAdvocate]

Dec 24, 2023 14:51:40 GMT -5 Ryan said:

Dec 24, 2023 12:33:24 GMT -5 tallguy said:

Numbers and studies were posted earlier.  Those showed that "serious" adverse reactions to the vaccine occurred in roughly one of every 30,000 persons.  If somebody was one of those 30,000, it seems more like bad luck.  It is NOT of course "bad luck" to you, because you were the one affected, and I get that.  But considering that the chance of being struck by lightning during one's lifetime is estimated at one in 15,300...?  That is not a completely fair comparison, because the chance of an event happening at some point in your lifetime is not directly comparable to something that may happen possibly more than once, but it still boils down to this:  You are twice as likely to get struck by lightning at some point in your life than to have a serious adverse reaction to a single vaccine injection.  I'll take those odds.   

You can post studies, but see how this plays out in the real world.  

studies ARE the real world.

see, we are actually speaking two different languages, here, Ryan.  you are speaking the language of the internet, Facebook and your own personal experience.  to YOU that is "the REAL WORLD".

to me, the world is everything ELSE other than that.

it is weird how little they intersect.  weird in a bad way.

[djAdvocate]

Dec 24, 2023 15:58:14 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

Dec 24, 2023 15:12:26 GMT -5 tallguy said:

I don't recall anyone saying that the vaccine would absolutely prevent you from getting COVID.  What it was touted to do was to make it not be as serious so that you most likely would not die from it.  For a new pandemic virus that we were trying to fight and create vaccines for in real time, what was accomplished was remarkable.  And the data bears that out.  After vaccines were introduced, death rates flipped.  Where the virus had originally hit urban areas first, death rates became much higher in red states where there was political resistance to the vaccines.  I don't recall the efficacy rates precisely, but my recollection is that they were around 95% after the second dose, and nearly 100% against severe hospitalization or death.  I trust PMD can verify or correct the numbers.

When the vaccines were first being developed, there was debate as to how effective they needed to be to be approved. The consensus was 40-50% was the minimum, and the hope was 70%. There were far better than that. They were 95% effective at preventing SEVERE disease. That is the aim at vaccination, preventing severe disease, i.e.stopping people from being hospitalized and dying. The risk of death in people who were not vaccinated was 7.3-16.3 times higher, depending on the study. ANother study showed that the primary series of vaccination was 86-90% effective at preventing hospitalizations, and 90-93% effective at preventing death at 7 months, and 60-65% and 70-75% respectively at 12 months. I would say they are quite effective. But hey, why let facts get in the way of beliefs and anecdotes. They apparently are not important according to some posters.

the LEAST effective vaccines, like SinoVac, met the standard for flu vaccines that you mentioned above.  the MOST effective were wildly better than that.

if people would rather play the 1:30000 odds of complications against the 1:60 odds of DYING from the disease, i guess that is fine by me.  as long as they stay home and do it rather than infecting my family, friends or associates.

edit: the odds are more like 1:100-1:200 depending on where you live and other factors.  but that number is still at least 150x higher than the odds of SERIOUS RISK from taking the vaccine.  in other words, your odds of dying from not getting vaccinated are at least 150x higher than you developing SERIOUS COMPLICATIONS from the vaccine.  you can't possibly take those odds as a rational person who is concerned with his or her health and the health of others.