Behind the Birth of an Anti-Vaccine Story

[Tiny]

You could try googling "how effective have the Covid Vaccines Been worldwide"

When I did this I got pages of links - some from 2020 some from 2022 (I'm sure there are some from 2023). You probably do need to check or understand the bias of the report (as in who published the link).

There's a lot of reading to do. And I'm guessing it will be boring.

And the results are boring... the vaccines work to prevent SEVERE Covid19.  And people with Severe Covid19 are the ones that tend to die.  I would think that as more people got vaccinated hospitalizations dropped off fewer people die.  


I'm not sure if people expected the covid19 vaccine to prevent covid19 100% or what...

[pulmonarymd]

Dec 21, 2023 17:01:21 GMT -5 laterbloomer said:

"I guess the fact that the hospitals and ICU aren't full and deaths are down significantly doesn't count"

Not really. From what I have read pandemics generally last about 2 years without intervention. We are coming up on the 3 year mark. At this point the hospitals wouldn't be full if we had taken no measures.

Pandemics end when enough people have immunity. Immunity occurs either through recovering after an infection or through vaccination. That’s it. Everything else that is done is to try to prevent some infections and deaths, including those with other medical problems that are “crowded out” due to the massive number of ill people. So yes, pandemics always end. The question is the toll.

You can look at the number of hospitalizations and deaths in areas with high vaccine uptake and low vaccine uptake. The numbers are stark. Unless you are being deliberately obtuse.

The other interventions were never going to stop the pandemic. They were meant to “flatten the curve”. You just want some justification as to why you refused to help stop this by getting vaccinated

[Tiny]

Dec 21, 2023 17:01:21 GMT -5 laterbloomer said:

"I guess the fact that the hospitals and ICU aren't full and deaths are down significantly doesn't count"

Not really. From what I have read pandemics generally last about 2 years without intervention. We are coming up on the 3 year mark. At this point the hospitals wouldn't be full if we had taken no measures.

You want to look at death rates. and then Death rates by country.

The problem with that is how well records are kept and how covid deaths were recorded. Again it's like "suicide" - if it's bad to have Covid19 on a death certificate people will fight to NOT have that on the death certificate.


That then leaves us with looking at "excess deaths" - and the insurance agencies (and perhaps census information) may give a clearer picture of how many people died (I suspect other countries have some way to count "excess deaths" as well.

Take that with vaccine usage and other methods of stemming the spread  of the virus and you'd get a pretty good idea if more people would have died if there was no vaccine and if no one ever wore a mask or stayed home.... 

I'm betting that info is available - it's just behind paywalls or firewalls.   

[pulmonarymd]

Dec 21, 2023 17:22:55 GMT -5 Tiny said:

Dec 21, 2023 17:01:21 GMT -5 laterbloomer said:

"I guess the fact that the hospitals and ICU aren't full and deaths are down significantly doesn't count"

Not really. From what I have read pandemics generally last about 2 years without intervention. We are coming up on the 3 year mark. At this point the hospitals wouldn't be full if we had taken no measures.

You want to look at death rates. and then Death rates by country.

The problem with that is how well records are kept and how covid deaths were recorded. Again it's like "suicide" - if it's bad to have Covid19 on a death certificate people will fight to NOT have that on the death certificate.


That then leaves us with looking at "excess deaths" - and the insurance agencies (and perhaps census information) may give a clearer picture of how many people died (I suspect other countries have some way to count "excess deaths" as well.

Take that with vaccine usage and other methods of stemming the spread  of the virus and you'd get a pretty good idea if more people would have died if there was no vaccine and if no one ever wore a mask or stayed home.... 

I'm betting that info is available - it's just behind paywalls or firewalls.   

Ask an actuary, they know. Fortunately, we have one here azucena. She can tell you when deaths started to go up, and about excess mortality. I bet they have state by state comparisons and before and after the vaccine became available. Since this gets to their business and how much money they make, I am sure that the insurance companies have robust data.

[Tiny]

Dec 21, 2023 17:11:59 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

Dec 21, 2023 17:01:21 GMT -5 laterbloomer said:

"I guess the fact that the hospitals and ICU aren't full and deaths are down significantly doesn't count"

Not really. From what I have read pandemics generally last about 2 years without intervention. We are coming up on the 3 year mark. At this point the hospitals wouldn't be full if we had taken no measures.

Pandemics end when enough people have immunity. Immunity occurs either through recovering after an infection or through vaccination. That’s it. Everything else that is done is to try to prevent some infections and deaths, including those with other medical problems that are “crowded out” due to the massive number of ill people. So yes, pandemics always end. The question is the toll.

You can look at the number of hospitalizations and deaths in areas with high vaccine uptake and low vaccine uptake. The numbers are stark. Unless you are being deliberately obtuse.

The other interventions were never going to stop the pandemic. They were meant to “flatten the curve”. You just want some justification as to why you refused to help stop this by getting vaccinated

FWIW:  it might not be "obtuseness"  it might a "math" thing...  it's hard to conceptualize a million of anything.   It's hard to conceptualize why no one you know is getting sick (the 150 or so people in your circles)  but yet the news is reporting thousands of people dying a day in the US.     We're human.  It's hard.  

[pulmonarymd]

We have been over these numbers multiple times. DJ has posted about this extensively. If our death rates were similar to the countries with the best outcomes, hundreds of thousands of people would be alive in the US. I don't know what more there is to be said about it.

[pulmonarymd]

Dec 21, 2023 17:30:10 GMT -5 Tiny said:

Dec 21, 2023 17:11:59 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

Pandemics end when enough people have immunity. Immunity occurs either through recovering after an infection or through vaccination. That’s it. Everything else that is done is to try to prevent some infections and deaths, including those with other medical problems that are “crowded out” due to the massive number of ill people. So yes, pandemics always end. The question is the toll.

You can look at the number of hospitalizations and deaths in areas with high vaccine uptake and low vaccine uptake. The numbers are stark. Unless you are being deliberately obtuse.

The other interventions were never going to stop the pandemic. They were meant to “flatten the curve”. You just want some justification as to why you refused to help stop this by getting vaccinated

FWIW:  it might not be "obtuseness"  it might a "math" thing...  it's hard to conceptualize a million of anything.   It's hard to conceptualize why no one you know is getting sick (the 150 or so people in your circles)  but yet the news is reporting thousands of people dying a day in the US.     We're human.  It's hard.  

Maybe, but it also requires distrusting the numbers and the experts. No one seems to have any problem believing that over 500k Americans die each year from heart disease and cancer respectively. So we are capable

[Pink Cashmere]

Dec 21, 2023 17:30:10 GMT -5 Tiny said:

Dec 21, 2023 17:11:59 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

Pandemics end when enough people have immunity. Immunity occurs either through recovering after an infection or through vaccination. That’s it. Everything else that is done is to try to prevent some infections and deaths, including those with other medical problems that are “crowded out” due to the massive number of ill people. So yes, pandemics always end. The question is the toll.

You can look at the number of hospitalizations and deaths in areas with high vaccine uptake and low vaccine uptake. The numbers are stark. Unless you are being deliberately obtuse.

The other interventions were never going to stop the pandemic. They were meant to “flatten the curve”. You just want some justification as to why you refused to help stop this by getting vaccinated

FWIW:  it might not be "obtuseness"  it might a "math" thing...  it's hard to conceptualize a million of anything.   It's hard to conceptualize why no one you know is getting sick (the 150 or so people in your circles)  but yet the news is reporting thousands of people dying a day in the US.     We're human.  It's hard.  

On the other end of that, it is difficult for me to imagine not knowing anyone that got very sick and/or died from COVID. Several people that worked in my building died from it. Several more were hospitalized and very sick for months from it. I have 3 friends whose Moms died from it. I know quite a few people that lost loved ones, friends and family, due to COVID, some of them lost several family members because of it. It easily adds up to dozens of people that I directly or indirectly know/knew, that either died, or got very, very sick, but managed to survive it.

All of that made it very real to me, and easy for me to believe the numbers of deaths being reported. 

[Tennesseer]

Dec 21, 2023 12:56:58 GMT -5 Ryan said:

I think the medical community needs to stop being so dismissive about possible side effects of any vaccines.  My wife had terrible hives about 10 days after a COVID booster shot and all the doctors (general practitioner, dermatologist, etc).  She went back to her job and talked to 2 co-workers that experienced the same thing and one of them said her Doctor told her they had been seeing a lot of this after the patient got the COVID vaccine.

When she asked her doctor, the doctor seemed to get defensive and say it could've been anything.  It could even be worse if they had actually gotten covid.  

That kind of stuff just pisses people off.  Don't tell me that I could've still had these symptoms with actual COVID, they have no idea what I would've experienced.  They are so quick to try to explain why someone is better off and defect blame away from the vaccine that they don't realize the damage they are doing.  By the way, my wife STILL has hives (less serious now) 2 years after the vaccine.  

It is also possible your wife and her co-workers ate the same food at work and developed hives because the food caused the hives reaction if they got the hives roughly around the same time as each other.

[Tennesseer]

As far as I know, the vaccines for Covid never claimed you would never contract the Covid virus. The Covid vaccine would help the vast majority of vaccine recipients not to die from the virus. That was all.

[Tennesseer]

In April, the U.S. campaign against COVID-19 suffered a blow too. Reports that an extremely rare but serious blood-clotting disorder might have resulted from Johnson & Johnson's vaccine — one of the three authorized for use against COVID-19 in the U.S. — once again raised the question of whether possible harms caused by a vaccine might derail people's confidence in a public health campaign at a crucial time.

On April 13, the CDC and the Food and Drug Administration jointly announced that among the 6.8 million doses of the Johnson & Johnson vaccine administered to date, six cases of a serious blood-clotting issue had been recorded, and one had woman died.

Ten days later, after a careful review of those cases and others, the pause was lifted and immunization with the vaccine resumed, with new guidance for recipients and doctors about what to look for in the way of symptoms and how to treat these extremely rare events.

Can't Help Falling In Love With A Vaccine: How Polio Campaign Beat Vaccine Hesitancy

[Tennesseer]

I got my COVID-19, Flu and RSVvaccines/boosters in October and I'm still here.

Meanwhile...

Surge In COVID-19, Flu, RSV Hospitalizations Leads To Winter Virus Warning By CDC

The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) is sounding the alarm, warning that low vaccination rates for COVID-19, influenza, and RSV (respiratory syncytial virus) could strain healthcare systems across the nation in the weeks ahead.

Hospitalizations among all age groups in the last month increased by 200 percent for influenza, 51 percent for COVID, and 60 percent for RSV, the CDC said.

Meanwhile, coverage for the seasonal 2023-2024 flu shot is low in all age groups compared with the same period of the 2022–2023 season.

Just 17 percent of adults had received the updated COVID vaccine as of Friday, Dec. 8, and only around 16 percent of adults over age 60 reported receiving an RSV vaccine.
The RSV shot is recommended for that age group. The CDC says everyone 6 months and older should get both the updated flu and COVID vaccines.

"Healthcare providers should recommend antiviral medications for influenza and COVID-19 for all eligible patients, especially patients at high risk of progression to severe disease such as older adults and people with certain underlying medical conditions," the CDC said.

Surge In COVID-19, Flu, RSV Hospitalizations Leads To Winter Virus Warning By CDC

[mollyc]

Dec 21, 2023 13:58:28 GMT -5 laterbloomer said:

Dec 21, 2023 12:56:58 GMT -5 Ryan said:

I think the medical community needs to stop being so dismissive about possible side effects of any vaccines.  My wife had terrible hives about 10 days after a COVID booster shot and all the doctors (general practitioner, dermatologist, etc).  She went back to her job and talked to 2 co-workers that experienced the same thing and one of them said her Doctor told her they had been seeing a lot of this after the patient got the COVID vaccine.

When she asked her doctor, the doctor seemed to get defensive and say it could've been anything.  It could even be worse if they had actually gotten covid.  

That kind of stuff just pisses people off.  Don't tell me that I could've still had these symptoms with actual COVID, they have no idea what I would've experienced.  They are so quick to try to explain why someone is better off and defect blame away from the vaccine that they don't realize the damage they are doing.  By the way, my wife STILL has hives (less serious now) 2 years after the vaccine.  

In that vein, I have 3 different friends that got vaccinated and have had Covid at least twice. And they have had severe symptoms, just shy of needing to go to the hospital.

I really wish they would report transparent statistics about all this.

You’re in Ontario. Public Health Ontario has and still is posting all kinds of data regarding Covid and the vaccines. I’m sure I linked to them a number of times in the past. They can release all of the details they want but, even if the Media doesn’t compress the tale to uselessness, most people just have their eyes glaze over and skim things.

[Ryan]

Dec 21, 2023 18:24:11 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

Dec 21, 2023 12:56:58 GMT -5 Ryan said:

I think the medical community needs to stop being so dismissive about possible side effects of any vaccines.  My wife had terrible hives about 10 days after a COVID booster shot and all the doctors (general practitioner, dermatologist, etc).  She went back to her job and talked to 2 co-workers that experienced the same thing and one of them said her Doctor told her they had been seeing a lot of this after the patient got the COVID vaccine.

When she asked her doctor, the doctor seemed to get defensive and say it could've been anything.  It could even be worse if they had actually gotten covid.  

That kind of stuff just pisses people off.  Don't tell me that I could've still had these symptoms with actual COVID, they have no idea what I would've experienced.  They are so quick to try to explain why someone is better off and defect blame away from the vaccine that they don't realize the damage they are doing.  By the way, my wife STILL has hives (less serious now) 2 years after the vaccine.  

It is also possible your wife and her co-workers ate the same food at work and developed hives because the food caused the hives reaction if they got the hives roughly around the same time as each other.

No, they all got the vaccine over winter break.  Besides, it was during COVID still so they weren't doing any gatherings as a larger group.

[Ryan]

Dec 21, 2023 18:39:16 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

As far as I know, the vaccines for Covid never claimed you would never contract the Covid virus. The Covid vaccine would help the vast majority of vaccine recipients not to die from the virus. That was all.

I don't know, I think it was heavily implied (outright stated in most cases) that getting the vaccine will prevent you from getting it and prevent you from spreading it.  Just go look at that Rachel Maddow clip after she got her vaccine, that was pretty much the common message.  Once you get COVID or get the vaccine, you probably aren't going to get it or spread it.

I've got the vaccine and the booster, but probably won't get it after my wife's experience.  MOST people I know were fine, but most people I know that got COVID were fine too.  

They oversold the vaccine a little too much and, if you're somebody that experienced some side effects, you kinda feel like you were duped.

[Tennesseer]

Dec 21, 2023 23:24:22 GMT -5 Ryan said:

Dec 21, 2023 18:39:16 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

As far as I know, the vaccines for Covid never claimed you would never contract the Covid virus. The Covid vaccine would help the vast majority of vaccine recipients not to die from the virus. That was all.

I don't know, I think it was heavily implied (outright stated in most cases) that getting the vaccine will prevent you from getting it and prevent you from spreading it.  Just go look at that Rachel Maddow clip after she got her vaccine, that was pretty much the common message.  Once you get COVID or get the vaccine, you probably aren't going to get it or spread it.

I've got the vaccine and the booster, but probably won't get it after my wife's experience.  MOST people I know were fine, but most people I know that got COVID were fine too.  

They oversold the vaccine a little too much and, if you're somebody that experienced some side effects, you kinda feel like you were duped.

What prevented many of us from even getting a mild case of Covid was wearing a mask out in public. We still could contract Covid even if we got the vaccine. But it would not be severe enough for hospitalization or for the morgue.

[Tennesseer]

Dec 21, 2023 23:07:39 GMT -5 Ryan said:

Dec 21, 2023 18:24:11 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

It is also possible your wife and her co-workers ate the same food at work and developed hives because the food caused the hives reaction if they got the hives roughly around the same time as each other.

No, they all got the vaccine over winter break.  Besides, it was during COVID still so they weren't doing any gatherings as a larger group.

There are quite a few thing which could trigger the hives. The three women in the office contracting the hives and blaming it on the Covid vaccine is very coincidental and questionable as to what caused it.

Causes of hives due to allergic reaction and the triggers include:
Emotional stress
Certain medications
Infection
Sunlight
Food - such as allergic to nuts
Dust
Fabric texture
Certain metals

I know hundreds of people who got the Covid vaccine and nothing worse for a few of them than a slight pain in the shoulder where the needle was jabbed into them.

[djAdvocate]

Dec 21, 2023 9:40:25 GMT -5 Spellbound454 said:

I talked to loads of people over the pandemic

.....and some were absolutely adamant that they were not going to take the vaccine ... (thought they were being poisoned, or whatever)

A story like this just reinforced, to them,  that they were right all along.

I guess its one of those occasions,  where the causes are unclear...... and you read into it whatever you want.

sometimes people survive car accidents without wearing seatbelts.  however, far more often, they get seriously injured or die.

reinforcement of false beliefs based on exceptions, rather than the rule, is something SOME people do.  it doesn't make them right.

[Spellbound454]

I have seen various research results in the medical literature about Covid ... but usually just jump to the conclusion,,,, because its written in a language that's difficult to decipher.

What we could do with is a very clear compilation of exactly what went on ...... before the conspiracy crowd start inventing all sorts of fanciful stuff.


As an anecdote ...... Two of the kids in our School collapsed with heart problems during the pandemic. One of whom was resuscitated. (both survived)  That was after getting Covid, not having vaccine because we didn't routinely vaccinate teenagers at that time.... and it was in the same month.

We have had kids die of medical conditions over the years... ie  CF, Cancer, but this was extraordinary
and there is nothing to explain it.

Its easy to see that people start putting their own theories together, when a trusted source isn't forthcoming.

I don't know about you but we have a Covid enquiry going on at the moment but its useless.
Its just politics: who said what, and to whom... so they can apportion blame in hindsight.

Lets see the science.




 

[pulmonarymd]

These studies have been done. People are just ignoring it. Again, in The NY Times, a study look at pre and post vaccination incidence of Covid and death. Surprise, places with higher uptake of the vaccine had fewer cases. Why is this controversial or difficult to understand. People are being purposely obtuse

[daisylu]

Maybe it was the sources I follow, but I never heard any medical professional say that that vaccine would prevent you from getting Covid or passing it to someone else. I only ever heard/read it as being compared to the flu vaccine - which contrary to what most people THINK,  does not necessarily prevent you from contracting the flu but lessens the symptoms. Which is why the flu vaccine has always been pushed toward the most vulnerable - small children, the elderly, people with other known health issues, and those who take care of those people. 

[Tiny]

Dec 22, 2023 6:35:21 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

These studies have been done. People are just ignoring it. Again, in The NY Times, a study look at pre and post vaccination incidence of Covid and death. Surprise, places with higher uptake of the vaccine had fewer cases. Why is this controversial or difficult to understand. People are being purposely obtuse

I with pulmonarymd on this.    there's lots of science that's been done.    It sucks that it didn't give absolute answer/one and done answers - but then we rarely get absolute answers in life or from science.   It also sucks that it didn't give answers that we "wanted" or "expected" or that matched up with our perception of how the world works.   That is also pretty common.   It also sucks that science often builds on itself.  So the answers sometime change over time as new information or studies happen.   

[pulmonarymd]

Based on the posts here, I am shocked that we were able to eradicate smallpox and are close with polio

[laterbloomer]

Dec 22, 2023 9:42:43 GMT -5 Tiny said:

Dec 22, 2023 6:35:21 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

These studies have been done. People are just ignoring it. Again, in The NY Times, a study look at pre and post vaccination incidence of Covid and death. Surprise, places with higher uptake of the vaccine had fewer cases. Why is this controversial or difficult to understand. People are being purposely obtuse

I with pulmonarymd on this.    there's lots of science that's been done.    It sucks that it didn't give absolute answer/one and done answers - but then we rarely get absolute answers in life or from science.   It also sucks that it didn't give answers that we "wanted" or "expected" or that matched up with our perception of how the world works.   That is also pretty common.   It also sucks that science often builds on itself.  So the answers sometime change over time as new information or studies happen.   

Where? Show me!  If all this information is out there why am I not being linked to it. We get links to everything else under the sun around here.

Look guys, they asked us to do some pretty drastic changes between lockdowns and mandatory vaccinations, why aren't they shouting the success of it all from the roof tops. I'm not dismissing any info I'm getting, I'm not getting any info. I mean like articles that summarize the studies and stats, that say here are the numbers. Why is not being shoved in our faces? I didn't have to go searching for the info about the measures they wanted us to take.

It is extremely frustrating to have conversations about things around here. I don't make my mind up about things quickly and I ask all kinds of questions to help me decide. You would think that after a decade people would get that. But every single time I don't just buy into the party line blindly I'm accused of having the opposite point of view and accused of all kinds of strange things. 

[laterbloomer]

Dec 21, 2023 21:28:39 GMT -5 mollyc said:

Dec 21, 2023 13:58:28 GMT -5 laterbloomer said:

In that vein, I have 3 different friends that got vaccinated and have had Covid at least twice. And they have had severe symptoms, just shy of needing to go to the hospital.

I really wish they would report transparent statistics about all this.

You’re in Ontario. Public Health Ontario has and still is posting all kinds of data regarding Covid and the vaccines. I’m sure I linked to them a number of times in the past. They can release all of the details they want but, even if the Media doesn’t compress the tale to uselessness, most people just have their eyes glaze over and skim things.

Do you mind linking again? I have missed them.

[mollyc]

Dec 22, 2023 10:38:44 GMT -5 laterbloomer said:

Dec 21, 2023 21:28:39 GMT -5 mollyc said:

You’re in Ontario. Public Health Ontario has and still is posting all kinds of data regarding Covid and the vaccines. I’m sure I linked to them a number of times in the past. They can release all of the details they want but, even if the Media doesn’t compress the tale to uselessness, most people just have their eyes glaze over and skim things.

Do you mind linking again? I have missed them.

Ok. Just a warning that it might take until after Christmas when I have time to sit at the computer. My phone’s fine for commenting but not for posting links

[Ryan]

Dec 22, 2023 0:06:48 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

Dec 21, 2023 23:07:39 GMT -5 Ryan said:

No, they all got the vaccine over winter break.  Besides, it was during COVID still so they weren't doing any gatherings as a larger group.

There are quite a few thing which could trigger the hives. The three women in the office contracting the hives and blaming it on the Covid vaccine is very coincidental and questionable as to what caused it.

Causes of hives due to allergic reaction and the triggers include:
Emotional stress
Certain medications
Infection
Sunlight
Food - such as allergic to nuts
Dust
Fabric texture
Certain metals

I know hundreds of people who got the Covid vaccine and nothing worse for a few of them than a slight pain in the shoulder where the needle was jabbed into them.

I don't care whether or not you believe me, but your response is part of the reason people get pissed.  The medical community is very quick to explain away any issues people have with the vaccine.  I'm your average US citizen, I own a house, I don't believe in conspiracy theories, I have a wife/kids, college educated, etc.  I have no doubt in my mind that the hives were triggered by the vaccine, it completely lines up with the timeline of other people's experiences (and there are a lot).  The hives were intense right after the vaccine and have slowly lessened, but still flare up if she doesn't take zertec every couple days.  

I think the medical community plays out these hypotheticals to make people feel like they made the right choice.  You get the vaccine and get COVID "Well, it would've been a lot worse".  You have a side effect from the vaccine "Well, you can get those same side effects from COVID".   All of those things MIGHT be true, but they also might NOT be true.  You can't just give one side the benefit of the doubt on everything.  

This is just my personal experience, but I think any side effects were downplayed for mass adoption of the vaccine.  This was for the greater good.  For the vast majority of people, you are absolutely right that it probably was for the best.  But for people like my wife that experienced these side effects, it's not so great.  And everyone that is connected to someone like that and passes on their experience, well it makes people not continue to get vaccinated.  

[laterbloomer]

Dec 22, 2023 11:05:19 GMT -5 Ryan said:

Dec 22, 2023 0:06:48 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

There are quite a few thing which could trigger the hives. The three women in the office contracting the hives and blaming it on the Covid vaccine is very coincidental and questionable as to what caused it.

Causes of hives due to allergic reaction and the triggers include:
Emotional stress
Certain medications
Infection
Sunlight
Food - such as allergic to nuts
Dust
Fabric texture
Certain metals

I know hundreds of people who got the Covid vaccine and nothing worse for a few of them than a slight pain in the shoulder where the needle was jabbed into them.

I don't care whether or not you believe me, but your response is part of the reason people get pissed.  The medical community is very quick to explain away any issues people have with the vaccine.  I'm your average US citizen, I own a house, I don't believe in conspiracy theories, I have a wife/kids, college educated, etc.  I have no doubt in my mind that the hives were triggered by the vaccine, it completely lines up with the timeline of other people's experiences (and there are a lot).  The hives were intense right after the vaccine and have slowly lessened, but still flare up if she doesn't take zertec every couple days.  

I think the medical community plays out these hypotheticals to make people feel like they made the right choice.  You get the vaccine and get COVID "Well, it would've been a lot worse".  You have a side effect from the vaccine "Well, you can get those same side effects from COVID".   All of those things MIGHT be true, but they also might NOT be true.  You can't just give one side the benefit of the doubt on everything.  

This is just my personal experience, but I think any side effects were downplayed for mass adoption of the vaccine.  This was for the greater good.  For the vast majority of people, you are absolutely right that it probably was for the best.  But for people like my wife that experienced these side effects, it's not so great.  And everyone that is connected to someone like that and passes on their experience, well it makes people not continue to get vaccinated.  

So well said!!!

[pulmonarymd]

There has been data by country, data by state, data by county describing covid deaths. DJ has posted much of that here.

All of the mitigation methods were never going to stop the pandemic. They end with immunity. You either get immunity from an infection, or by vaccination. That’s it. What the mitigation efforts were always trying to do was to keep people from getting sick and dying, until we had a vaccine. I do not know why that is so difficult to accept

When the first vaccine was being developed, there was a debate as to how effective it needed to be to be used. Nowhere did it say that it would be 100% effective. That is revisionist history

[Tennesseer]

Dec 22, 2023 11:05:19 GMT -5 Ryan said:

Dec 22, 2023 0:06:48 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

There are quite a few thing which could trigger the hives. The three women in the office contracting the hives and blaming it on the Covid vaccine is very coincidental and questionable as to what caused it.

Causes of hives due to allergic reaction and the triggers include:
Emotional stress
Certain medications
Infection
Sunlight
Food - such as allergic to nuts
Dust
Fabric texture
Certain metals

I know hundreds of people who got the Covid vaccine and nothing worse for a few of them than a slight pain in the shoulder where the needle was jabbed into them.

I don't care whether or not you believe me, but your response is part of the reason people get pissed.  The medical community is very quick to explain away any issues people have with the vaccine.  I'm your average US citizen, I own a house, I don't believe in conspiracy theories, I have a wife/kids, college educated, etc.  I have no doubt in my mind that the hives were triggered by the vaccine, it completely lines up with the timeline of other people's experiences (and there are a lot).  The hives were intense right after the vaccine and have slowly lessened, but still flare up if she doesn't take zertec every couple days.  

I think the medical community plays out these hypotheticals to make people feel like they made the right choice.  You get the vaccine and get COVID "Well, it would've been a lot worse".  You have a side effect from the vaccine "Well, you can get those same side effects from COVID".   All of those things MIGHT be true, but they also might NOT be true.  You can't just give one side the benefit of the doubt on everything.  

This is just my personal experience, but I think any side effects were downplayed for mass adoption of the vaccine.  This was for the greater good.  For the vast majority of people, you are absolutely right that it probably was for the best.  But for people like my wife that experienced these side effects, it's not so great.  And everyone that is connected to someone like that and passes on their experience, well it makes people not continue to get vaccinated.  

Be pissed then.