Behind the Birth of an Anti-Vaccine Story

[djAdvocate]

Dec 24, 2023 14:51:40 GMT -5 Ryan said:

So let's say you have a friend that you know, that is a very level headed person.  They swear up and down that the vaccine gave them hives.  You look around and what do you see?  People with or without vaccines getting COVID and having various level of illness.  So you think "there is a risk to taking the vaccine.  There is a risk to getting COVID.   But taking the vaccine doesn't prevent me from getting COVID"

Given all this, I don't think it's that surprising that people might opt out of the vaccine.  They aren't anti-vaxxers, they just feel like they aren't getting the whole story.

i don't trust my level headed friends, unless they are also virologists or experts in the field.  then i would consider their opinion along with other disease experts and reach a rational conclusion.

people opting out of the vaccine are trading 1:30000 odds for 1:60.  i will take 1:30000 when it comes to my health, thanks.

but then again, i am not as worried about hives as i am of dying, or having life long incapacity due to contracting a disease which has killed 7 million people, so far.

[djAdvocate]

here is another interesting statistic: 98-99% of new deaths due to COVID are in the unvaccinated population:

medicalpartnership.usg.edu/covid-19-staggering-statistic-98-to-99-of-americans-dying-are-unvaccinated/

you read that right. out of 18000 deaths in the study, 150 had the vaccine.

so, yeah. the vaccine might be utterly crippling, for a small fraction of people who take it. but that doesn't mean you shouldn't take the vaccine.

[Tennesseer]

I have been getting an annual fle shot for probably fifty years.  Never got the flue or even symptoms of a cold from it.

I have gotten the original Covid virus shot and all the available booster shots and have never got any side affects from it.

I even got the original polo vaccine back in the '50s when it first became available.  Never got polio too.

[Pink Cashmere]

I will risk get flamed and everything else, by saying that I understand what Ryan is saying. It’s similar to many arguments or “discussions” I’ve had about my experience with the flu shot. An experience that I don’t even talk about anymore, because I got tired years ago, of people trying to argue with me about it. 

Also, I absolutely mean no disrespect to pulmonarymd as an individual, a Doctor, or in any way at all, with what I am about to say. But given some experiences with Doctors over the last 10 years, I absolutely understand how mistrust of medical professionals starts to form. 

It does not build trust when a patient tells a Doctor what is going on with them, and because it doesn’t fit a textbook presentation of an illness or anything they have been taught or dealt with, the Doctor does not listen, and dismisses everything the patient is saying. IMHO, a *good* Doctor, actually listens to their patients that do not have a history of strange stuff like drug seeking or just making shit up for attention, and is willing to try to think “outside of the box” when a patient seems to be honestly describing something that doesn’t fit neatly in any of the boxes of their knowledge and training. 

Then there is a whole ‘nother set of issues for certain people, that I ASSume doesn’t apply to Ryan personally, but is still very real, nonetheless. And by “certain people”, I do not mean the folks that spouted shit like the vaccine was really chips being implanted in your body.

I am not knocking medical professionals and experts as a whole, and I am definitely not trying to be disrespectful to the one person on here that admits to being a Doctor and tries to helpful and give us good information. I am just saying that I do understand why some people don’t necessarily trust everything the medical professionals and experts say.

[pulmonarymd]

Dec 24, 2023 17:50:01 GMT -5 Pink Cashmere said:

I will risk get flamed and everything else, by saying that I understand what Ryan is saying. It’s similar to many arguments or “discussions” I’ve had about my experience with the flu shot. An experience that I don’t even talk about anymore, because I got tired years ago, of people trying to argue with me about it. 

Also, I absolutely mean no disrespect to pulmonarymd as an individual, a Doctor, or in any way at all, with what I am about to say. But given some experiences with Doctors over the last 10 years, I absolutely understand how mistrust of medical professionals starts to form. 

It does not build trust when a patient tells a Doctor what is going on with them, and because it doesn’t fit a textbook presentation of an illness or anything they have been taught or dealt with, the Doctor does not listen, and dismisses everything the patient is saying. IMHO, a *good* Doctor, actually listens to their patients that do not have a history of strange stuff like drug seeking or just making shit up for attention, and is willing to try to think “outside of the box” when a patient seems to be honestly describing something that doesn’t fit neatly in any of the boxes of their knowledge and training. 

Then there is a whole ‘nother set of issues for certain people, that I ASSume doesn’t apply to Ryan personally, but is still very real, nonetheless. And by “certain people”, I do not mean the folks that spouted shit like the vaccine was really chips being implanted in your body.

I am not knocking medical professionals and experts as a whole, and I am definitely not trying to be disrespectful to the one person on here that admits to being a Doctor and tries to helpful and give us good information. I am just saying that I do understand why some people don’t necessarily trust everything the medical professionals and experts say.

I understand what you are saying. Are there bad doctors? Absolutely. Are there doctors that dismiss patients, do not listen, and discount what they say? Sure. But you know what? We are individuals, and just like many people on this board, we do not like being all put into one category because of some bad actors.

If we are being honest, let’s be honest. I have been a physician over 35 years. I have been assaulted, hadsomeone try to choke me, been spit on, cursed at, threatened with both suits and with bodily harm. A patient posted bomb threats for our hospital and showed up trying to get into the ICU with a firearm. Why? Because I/we were trying to do our job. Patients routinely lie to us, do not show up for appointments, then blame us when they get worse. Demand antibiotics for viral infections. Accuse us of lying. Trying to scam us for narcotic prescriptions. Yet we are supposed to act like none of this occurs, and to implicitly trust patients are telling the truth. To top it off, we have threads like this, and posts by patients accusing us of lying about the pandemic. Go on social media and trash us while misrepresenting the facts, and because of patient confidentiality, we are unable to respond. And we are expected to be available whenever you need us, and patients have accused me of abandoning them for having the audacity of going on vacation or having surgery myself.

Just if we all want to be totally honest

[Opti]

Dec 24, 2023 16:14:04 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

Dec 24, 2023 14:51:40 GMT -5 Ryan said:

So let's say you have a friend that you know, that is a very level headed person.  They swear up and down that the vaccine gave them hives.  You look around and what do you see?  People with or without vaccines getting COVID and having various level of illness.  So you think "there is a risk to taking the vaccine.  There is a risk to getting COVID.   But taking the vaccine doesn't prevent me from getting COVID"

Given all this, I don't think it's that surprising that people might opt out of the vaccine.  They aren't anti-vaxxers, they just feel like they aren't getting the whole story.

i don't trust my level headed friends, unless they are also virologists or experts in the field.  then i would consider their opinion along with other disease experts and reach a rational conclusion.

people opting out of the vaccine are trading 1:30000 odds for 1:60.  i will take 1:30000 when it comes to my health, thanks.

but then again, i am not as worried about hives as i am of dying, or having life long incapacity due to contracting a disease which has killed 7 million people, so far.

I'm not sure what levelheaded has to do with dealing with a brand-new disease. How long do these hives last? I did have reactions to the shots but mine were over in 24 hours. Hives compared to being on a ventilator for weeks and possibly dying, is an easy pick for me. I chose the vaccines. And I realize working in a healthcare facility I had the ability to quiz those who had gone out of their way to get it prior to when the facility was going to be able to vaccinate everyone.

And I get because I was working as an essential worker in a facility that eventually took Covid patients, I saw things many other people did not. Two of my coworkers died of Covid. And early on kidney damage and lung damage was happening to Covid patients. I asked one of the doctors who specialized in kidney and similar issues whether he thought the kidney damage would reverse. He did not know, but finding out some of his patients in the hospital now needed dialysis since they got Covid and did not need it prior, scared me. Shingles  caused eye damage a year or so prior to Covid , seeded probably from childhood chicken pox. I was determined to not add more medical issues to my body if I could help it.

[djAdvocate]

Dec 24, 2023 18:22:59 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

Dec 24, 2023 17:50:01 GMT -5 Pink Cashmere said:

I will risk get flamed and everything else, by saying that I understand what Ryan is saying. It’s similar to many arguments or “discussions” I’ve had about my experience with the flu shot. An experience that I don’t even talk about anymore, because I got tired years ago, of people trying to argue with me about it. 

Also, I absolutely mean no disrespect to pulmonarymd as an individual, a Doctor, or in any way at all, with what I am about to say. But given some experiences with Doctors over the last 10 years, I absolutely understand how mistrust of medical professionals starts to form. 

It does not build trust when a patient tells a Doctor what is going on with them, and because it doesn’t fit a textbook presentation of an illness or anything they have been taught or dealt with, the Doctor does not listen, and dismisses everything the patient is saying. IMHO, a *good* Doctor, actually listens to their patients that do not have a history of strange stuff like drug seeking or just making shit up for attention, and is willing to try to think “outside of the box” when a patient seems to be honestly describing something that doesn’t fit neatly in any of the boxes of their knowledge and training. 

Then there is a whole ‘nother set of issues for certain people, that I ASSume doesn’t apply to Ryan personally, but is still very real, nonetheless. And by “certain people”, I do not mean the folks that spouted shit like the vaccine was really chips being implanted in your body.

I am not knocking medical professionals and experts as a whole, and I am definitely not trying to be disrespectful to the one person on here that admits to being a Doctor and tries to helpful and give us good information. I am just saying that I do understand why some people don’t necessarily trust everything the medical professionals and experts say.

I understand what you are saying. Are there bad doctors? Absolutely. Are there doctors that dismiss patients, do not listen, and discount what they say? Sure. But you know what? We are individuals, and just like many people on this board, we do not like being all put into one category because of some bad actors.

If we are being honest, let’s be honest. I have been a physician over 35 years. I have been assaulted, hadsomeone try to choke me, been spit on, cursed at, threatened with both suits and with bodily harm. A patient posted bomb threats for our hospital and showed up trying to get into the ICU with a firearm. Why? Because I/we were trying to do our job. Patients routinely lie to us, do not show up for appointments, then blame us when they get worse. Demand antibiotics for viral infections. Accuse us of lying. Trying to scam us for narcotic prescriptions. Yet we are supposed to act like none of this occurs, and to implicitly trust patients are telling the truth. To top it off, we have threads like this, and posts by patients accusing us of lying about the pandemic. Go on social media and trash us while misrepresenting the facts, and because of patient confidentiality, we are unable to respond. And we are expected to be available whenever you need us, and patients have accused me of abandoning them for having the audacity of going on vacation or having surgery myself.

Just if we all want to be totally honest

be prepared for someone to accuse you of whining.

it's in the mail.

[pulmonarymd]

Dec 24, 2023 21:22:12 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

Dec 24, 2023 18:22:59 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

I understand what you are saying. Are there bad doctors? Absolutely. Are there doctors that dismiss patients, do not listen, and discount what they say? Sure. But you know what? We are individuals, and just like many people on this board, we do not like being all put into one category because of some bad actors.

If we are being honest, let’s be honest. I have been a physician over 35 years. I have been assaulted, hadsomeone try to choke me, been spit on, cursed at, threatened with both suits and with bodily harm. A patient posted bomb threats for our hospital and showed up trying to get into the ICU with a firearm. Why? Because I/we were trying to do our job. Patients routinely lie to us, do not show up for appointments, then blame us when they get worse. Demand antibiotics for viral infections. Accuse us of lying. Trying to scam us for narcotic prescriptions. Yet we are supposed to act like none of this occurs, and to implicitly trust patients are telling the truth. To top it off, we have threads like this, and posts by patients accusing us of lying about the pandemic. Go on social media and trash us while misrepresenting the facts, and because of patient confidentiality, we are unable to respond. And we are expected to be available whenever you need us, and patients have accused me of abandoning them for having the audacity of going on vacation or having surgery myself.

Just if we all want to be totally honest

be prepared for someone to accuse you of whining.

it's in the mail.

Well they can go screw themselves. I am working this whole weekend, including tomorrow. Something all of us in healthcare(and other essential services) do routinely, so the rest of them can enjoy themselves

My state recently passed a bill addressing then increasing rate of threats and actual assaults on healthcare professionals. Hospitals are needing to fortify themselves due to the increased threats. They have become less welcoming places because of this, a loss for all of us. But yeah, I am the one who is whining

[djAdvocate]

this decline in respect for expertise leads inexorably to Idiocracy.

[Ryan]

Dec 24, 2023 18:22:59 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

Dec 24, 2023 17:50:01 GMT -5 Pink Cashmere said:

I will risk get flamed and everything else, by saying that I understand what Ryan is saying. It’s similar to many arguments or “discussions” I’ve had about my experience with the flu shot. An experience that I don’t even talk about anymore, because I got tired years ago, of people trying to argue with me about it. 

Also, I absolutely mean no disrespect to pulmonarymd as an individual, a Doctor, or in any way at all, with what I am about to say. But given some experiences with Doctors over the last 10 years, I absolutely understand how mistrust of medical professionals starts to form. 

It does not build trust when a patient tells a Doctor what is going on with them, and because it doesn’t fit a textbook presentation of an illness or anything they have been taught or dealt with, the Doctor does not listen, and dismisses everything the patient is saying. IMHO, a *good* Doctor, actually listens to their patients that do not have a history of strange stuff like drug seeking or just making shit up for attention, and is willing to try to think “outside of the box” when a patient seems to be honestly describing something that doesn’t fit neatly in any of the boxes of their knowledge and training. 

Then there is a whole ‘nother set of issues for certain people, that I ASSume doesn’t apply to Ryan personally, but is still very real, nonetheless. And by “certain people”, I do not mean the folks that spouted shit like the vaccine was really chips being implanted in your body.

I am not knocking medical professionals and experts as a whole, and I am definitely not trying to be disrespectful to the one person on here that admits to being a Doctor and tries to helpful and give us good information. I am just saying that I do understand why some people don’t necessarily trust everything the medical professionals and experts say.

I understand what you are saying. Are there bad doctors? Absolutely. Are there doctors that dismiss patients, do not listen, and discount what they say? Sure. But you know what? We are individuals, and just like many people on this board, we do not like being all put into one category because of some bad actors.

If we are being honest, let’s be honest. I have been a physician over 35 years. I have been assaulted, hadsomeone try to choke me, been spit on, cursed at, threatened with both suits and with bodily harm. A patient posted bomb threats for our hospital and showed up trying to get into the ICU with a firearm. Why? Because I/we were trying to do our job. Patients routinely lie to us, do not show up for appointments, then blame us when they get worse. Demand antibiotics for viral infections. Accuse us of lying. Trying to scam us for narcotic prescriptions. Yet we are supposed to act like none of this occurs, and to implicitly trust patients are telling the truth. To top it off, we have threads like this, and posts by patients accusing us of lying about the pandemic. Go on social media and trash us while misrepresenting the facts, and because of patient confidentiality, we are unable to respond. And we are expected to be available whenever you need us, and patients have accused me of abandoning them for having the audacity of going on vacation or having surgery myself.

Just if we all want to be totally honest

You said it yourself, you don't trust patients to self report.  So since you are readily admitting that, you don't think that you're dismissing what the patient is actually dealing with?

I know you all are smart enough realize the issue.  Patients don't care about your studies.  The studies show that it is safe and it probably is when you look at the masses.  But when you have a patient that is sitting in your office telling you they had an adverse reaction and then you dismiss it, it probably doesn't do great things for encouraging people to continue taking a new vaccine.  You're wondering why people aren't doing it, I'm telling you why, and then you continue to point to studies.  

Besides, if patients feel like they aren't being heard, what makes them think the patients in the study would be treated any differently?  Why would a patient in a study be any more accurate with their self reporting than someone in the real world?  

[djAdvocate]

Dec 25, 2023 0:28:35 GMT -5 Ryan said:

Dec 24, 2023 18:22:59 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

I understand what you are saying. Are there bad doctors? Absolutely. Are there doctors that dismiss patients, do not listen, and discount what they say? Sure. But you know what? We are individuals, and just like many people on this board, we do not like being all put into one category because of some bad actors.

If we are being honest, let’s be honest. I have been a physician over 35 years. I have been assaulted, hadsomeone try to choke me, been spit on, cursed at, threatened with both suits and with bodily harm. A patient posted bomb threats for our hospital and showed up trying to get into the ICU with a firearm. Why? Because I/we were trying to do our job. Patients routinely lie to us, do not show up for appointments, then blame us when they get worse. Demand antibiotics for viral infections. Accuse us of lying. Trying to scam us for narcotic prescriptions. Yet we are supposed to act like none of this occurs, and to implicitly trust patients are telling the truth. To top it off, we have threads like this, and posts by patients accusing us of lying about the pandemic. Go on social media and trash us while misrepresenting the facts, and because of patient confidentiality, we are unable to respond. And we are expected to be available whenever you need us, and patients have accused me of abandoning them for having the audacity of going on vacation or having surgery myself.

Just if we all want to be totally honest

You said it yourself, you don't trust patients to self report.  So since you are readily admitting that, you don't think that you're dismissing what the patient is actually dealing with?

I know you all are smart enough realize the issue.  Patients don't care about your studies.  The studies show that it is safe and it probably is when you look at the masses.  But when you have a patient that is sitting in your office telling you they had an adverse reaction and then you dismiss it, it probably doesn't do great things for encouraging people to continue taking a new vaccine.  You're wondering why people aren't doing it, I'm telling you why, and then you continue to point to studies.  

Besides, if patients feel like they aren't being heard, what makes them think the patients in the study would be treated any differently?  Why would a patient in a study be any more accurate with their self reporting than someone in the real world?  

i can't imagine a doctor doing that.  

but as pmd said earlier, doctors don't know what causes hives.  i haven't looked it up, but i believe him.  there are many mysterious things in medicine.  

but let's take your story at face value.  what is a doctor to do?  is he to say "golly, all of the data says that you are making a correlation without causation, but maybe you are right" and possibly risk that becoming part of an internet meme that could end up killing thousands of people, or does he stand his ground and say "doctors don't know what causes hives.  we are sorry you have hives, but there is no study which shows that your symptoms are related to the vaccine".

i think the choice is pretty obvious.  so do you.
we just don't agree on what the obvious choice is.

[djAdvocate]

as to your final question- the studies, again, are DONE in the "real world". are you actually claiming that the hives patients are being EXCLUDED from the study? because that is what psychologists call "expanding the conspiracy to accommodate the new information". it is a hallmark of narcissism.

my dad did this exact thing. by the time he died, he had disowned his entire family, including me. the number of people he felt he could trust he could count on one hand. and, as it turned out, one of them was screwing his wife, and would end up moving into his bed when they hauled him away.

how do you like THAT for anecdotal?

[djAdvocate]

sorry, but i could not just let it go at that.

the ONLY studies worth a crap are BLIND STUDIES. in BLIND STUDIES the vaccine would go up against a placebo. if the placebo produced hives as often as the vaccine, hives would be removed from the list if side effects. in other words, it MIGHT BE that patients who get the vaccine would get hives just as often getting ANY vaccine, including one made of glucose, or something even more benign. but without examining the data, neither of us would know.

[pulmonarymd]

Dec 25, 2023 0:28:35 GMT -5 Ryan said:

Dec 24, 2023 18:22:59 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

I understand what you are saying. Are there bad doctors? Absolutely. Are there doctors that dismiss patients, do not listen, and discount what they say? Sure. But you know what? We are individuals, and just like many people on this board, we do not like being all put into one category because of some bad actors.

If we are being honest, let’s be honest. I have been a physician over 35 years. I have been assaulted, hadsomeone try to choke me, been spit on, cursed at, threatened with both suits and with bodily harm. A patient posted bomb threats for our hospital and showed up trying to get into the ICU with a firearm. Why? Because I/we were trying to do our job. Patients routinely lie to us, do not show up for appointments, then blame us when they get worse. Demand antibiotics for viral infections. Accuse us of lying. Trying to scam us for narcotic prescriptions. Yet we are supposed to act like none of this occurs, and to implicitly trust patients are telling the truth. To top it off, we have threads like this, and posts by patients accusing us of lying about the pandemic. Go on social media and trash us while misrepresenting the facts, and because of patient confidentiality, we are unable to respond. And we are expected to be available whenever you need us, and patients have accused me of abandoning them for having the audacity of going on vacation or having surgery myself.

Just if we all want to be totally honest

You said it yourself, you don't trust patients to self report.  So since you are readily admitting that, you don't think that you're dismissing what the patient is actually dealing with?

I know you all are smart enough realize the issue.  Patients don't care about your studies.  The studies show that it is safe and it probably is when you look at the masses.  But when you have a patient that is sitting in your office telling you they had an adverse reaction and then you dismiss it, it probably doesn't do great things for encouraging people to continue taking a new vaccine.  You're wondering why people aren't doing it, I'm telling you why, and then you continue to point to studies.  

Besides, if patients feel like they aren't being heard, what makes them think the patients in the study would be treated any differently?  Why would a patient in a study be any more accurate with their self reporting than someone in the real world?  

No, what I have is a healthy skepticism. It is the only way to do this correctly. I take what a patient take me at face value when I first meet them. If we see each other repeatedly, hopefully trust builds. But if they show themselves to be unreliable, sure I do not trust them. But, if you think most patients are forthcoming with us, you are delusional.

As DJ said, the only way we can do this job, and the only way we can more forward is by studies. Your, and your fellow patients, who dismiss them are part of the problem. But that is the problem in America today. People claim expertise when they have none. As to your wife, I have no idea if the vaccine caused your wife’s hives, and neither do you. I at least admit it. Did the vaccine cause them , possibly. Would I tell her to get another dose? I do not know. A number of factors come into play.

It’s funny how people act. Go to a mechanic and tell home something is wrong with your car? Does he just tell you you’re right? How about when he does what you tell him to fix, and it doesn’t work, are you then happy?

[Tennesseer]

Three women in a work office allegedly get hives from a Covid vaccine? No men in the office? And how many people work in that office? Hundreds and hundreds?

Yet I know hundreds of people who got the Covid vaccine and no one got hives from it. At most, just a slight pain in their arm around the injection area.

[❤ mollymouser ❤]

I have received every possible Covid vaccine and booster.
I have received a flu vaccine every year for the past 23+ years. (I missed it in 2000 and spent a week in the hospital. Lesson learned.)
I'm immune compromised and have multiple comorbidities.
In 2020, my sister and her husband both died from Covid. As did my mother-in-law. Before there were vaccines.
In 2022, my friend/college roommate died from Covid.

My husband and I are "Noviders" .... we haven't (as far as we know) caught Covid. Then again, we've been masking and taking full Covid precautions for 4 years. I last saw a movie in 2019 and last ate in a restaurant in February 2020. Our home is full of HEPA 13 air filters and we wear fit-tested good masks. We also use Enovid, Lumify and Bioshell.   I have an RX of Paxlovid in case I test positive. During the "winter illness season" my husband and I use separate bathrooms and separate bedrooms so we can isolate after he's been out in the world, potentially exposed.  When my husband flies on a commercial aircraft, he wears goggles in addition to his mask. We're as careful as possible.

I'm 58 and won't be eligible to get the RSV vaccine until March 2025. I will get it then.

In the United States, 4,628 people died from Covid in November. That we know of.

Covid is airborne. #wear a mask

[djAdvocate]

i haven't caught it, either.

i think i probably will, eventually. that is how the endemic phase works.
but i sure hope not.

[scgal]

Dec 24, 2023 9:46:26 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

Dec 24, 2023 7:37:28 GMT -5 scgal said:

The bottom line is most people are ok with the risk which is small and some are not ok with it. It doesn't matter. I had the vaccine when it came out I will not vac again. It is my choice it doesn't affect anyone else. (please keep the abortion shit out of this just because I mentioned choice).

Yet again wrong. If you were talking about other diseases, your point is correct. However, a contagious infectious disease is different. Your actions have a direct effect on others. As we see when measles vaccination rates fall, we have small outbreaks, and eventually a child will die. But your freedom is so much more important.

This is the same as the public smoking issue. Many of my patients are sensitive to cigarette smoke. Before smoking bans, they needed to be careful of where they went. When smoking bans came into force, smokers were whining about their rights. Don’t want to vaccinate yourself to help protect society, stay the fuck at home so you do not potentially put the rest of us at risk.

I would agree with you if covid vaccines actually prevented the disease but it doesn't. If I vaccinate I can still get it but with a chance of a milder degree. So I could actually still infect others it does not matter if I vaccinate or not to society. It is really just a personal issue on how much risk am I willing to take. 

The same with smoking. I hate smoking but I would still say people have the right to smoke if they want to. A business can ban it and certain govt establishments can. You can regulate the shit out of it, but you cannot tell someone they cannot smoke. One can argue a persons right to smoke is more important than a persons sensitivity to it. 

[Opti]

Dec 26, 2023 6:42:17 GMT -5 scgal said:

Dec 24, 2023 9:46:26 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

Yet again wrong. If you were talking about other diseases, your point is correct. However, a contagious infectious disease is different. Your actions have a direct effect on others. As we see when measles vaccination rates fall, we have small outbreaks, and eventually a child will die. But your freedom is so much more important.

This is the same as the public smoking issue. Many of my patients are sensitive to cigarette smoke. Before smoking bans, they needed to be careful of where they went. When smoking bans came into force, smokers were whining about their rights. Don’t want to vaccinate yourself to help protect society, stay the fuck at home so you do not potentially put the rest of us at risk.

I would agree with you if covid vaccines actually prevented the disease but it doesn't. If I vaccinate I can still get it but with a chance of a milder degree. So I could actually still infect others it does not matter if I vaccinate or not to society. It is really just a personal issue on how much risk am I willing to take. 

The same with smoking. I hate smoking but I would still say people have the right to smoke if they want to. A business can ban it and certain govt establishments can. You can regulate the shit out of it, but you cannot tell someone they cannot smoke. One can argue a persons right to smoke is more important than a persons sensitivity to it. 

Covid is not a binary thing in that if you have it, you have it at the same level as everyone else. Since the vaccine had to be timely and hit a moving target it was designed to cut down hospitalizations and death. Yes Virginia a vaccine can be created that does not stop disease X but blunts it. This is usually how it begins as vaccines are developed.

Responsible citizens would mask or simply not be out in public if they had a potentially deadly disease, but I know that is not the GOP party line.

[pulmonarymd]

Dec 26, 2023 6:42:17 GMT -5 scgal said:

Dec 24, 2023 9:46:26 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

Yet again wrong. If you were talking about other diseases, your point is correct. However, a contagious infectious disease is different. Your actions have a direct effect on others. As we see when measles vaccination rates fall, we have small outbreaks, and eventually a child will die. But your freedom is so much more important.

This is the same as the public smoking issue. Many of my patients are sensitive to cigarette smoke. Before smoking bans, they needed to be careful of where they went. When smoking bans came into force, smokers were whining about their rights. Don’t want to vaccinate yourself to help protect society, stay the fuck at home so you do not potentially put the rest of us at risk.

I would agree with you if covid vaccines actually prevented the disease but it doesn't. If I vaccinate I can still get it but with a chance of a milder degree. So I could actually still infect others it does not matter if I vaccinate or not to society. It is really just a personal issue on how much risk am I willing to take. 

The same with smoking. I hate smoking but I would still say people have the right to smoke if they want to. A business can ban it and certain govt establishments can. You can regulate the shit out of it, but you cannot tell someone they cannot smoke. One can argue a persons right to smoke is more important than a persons sensitivity to it. 

Please stop posting nonsense you know nothing about. The vaccine prevents disease. Period. It is just not 100% effective. Nothing in medicine is. Neither is any vaccine we use 100% effective. It will prevent disease in many cases. If you get ill, you will have milder symptoms in most cases. It prevents hospitalization and death. Just because it isn’t perfect doesn’t make it effective. It is the best tool we have. If everyone participates, then individuals at higher risk can participate in society. But you care more about your rights and than your responsibilities.
As to smoking. No one needs to smoke. Everyone can go somewhere that is smoke free. However, my patients cannot go to smoke filled places because they get sick. So by allowing smoking everywhere, people who cannot be around smoke have to limit themselves. If smoking is banned, smokers who don’t go are making a choice. But I doubt you will understand the difference

[scgal]

Dec 26, 2023 7:59:09 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

Dec 26, 2023 6:42:17 GMT -5 scgal said:

I would agree with you if covid vaccines actually prevented the disease but it doesn't. If I vaccinate I can still get it but with a chance of a milder degree. So I could actually still infect others it does not matter if I vaccinate or not to society. It is really just a personal issue on how much risk am I willing to take. 

The same with smoking. I hate smoking but I would still say people have the right to smoke if they want to. A business can ban it and certain govt establishments can. You can regulate the shit out of it, but you cannot tell someone they cannot smoke. One can argue a persons right to smoke is more important than a persons sensitivity to it. 

Please stop posting nonsense you know nothing about. The vaccine prevents disease. Period. It is just not 100% effective. Nothing in medicine is. Neither is any vaccine we use 100% effective. It will prevent disease in many cases. If you get ill, you will have milder symptoms in most cases. It prevents hospitalization and death. Just because it isn’t perfect doesn’t make it effective. It is the best tool we have. If everyone participates, then individuals at higher risk can participate in society. But you care more about your rights and than your responsibilities.
As to smoking. No one needs to smoke. Everyone can go somewhere that is smoke free. However, my patients cannot go to smoke filled places because they get sick. So by allowing smoking everywhere, people who cannot be around smoke have to limit themselves. If smoking is banned, smokers who don’t go are making a choice. But I doubt you will understand the difference

You are trying to make a case with no proof. Please tell me how the vaccine prevents the disease everthing I read including CDC reports says it does not prevent the disease but limits the severity of the disease. So if it prevents plese show any report that actually states the prevention of the disease. I never said it wasn't effective it is just not for the purpose of lessening the severity in which case it is a personal choice and should not matter who is vac or not. 


As far as smoking. Again I agree with you no on needs to smoke I personally can not stand it. I agree with places banning it I just don't think there should be a law to ban it from happening such as out in the street etc.  

[pulmonarymd]

Dec 26, 2023 12:29:17 GMT -5 scgal said:

Dec 26, 2023 7:59:09 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

Please stop posting nonsense you know nothing about. The vaccine prevents disease. Period. It is just not 100% effective. Nothing in medicine is. Neither is any vaccine we use 100% effective. It will prevent disease in many cases. If you get ill, you will have milder symptoms in most cases. It prevents hospitalization and death. Just because it isn’t perfect doesn’t make it effective. It is the best tool we have. If everyone participates, then individuals at higher risk can participate in society. But you care more about your rights and than your responsibilities.
As to smoking. No one needs to smoke. Everyone can go somewhere that is smoke free. However, my patients cannot go to smoke filled places because they get sick. So by allowing smoking everywhere, people who cannot be around smoke have to limit themselves. If smoking is banned, smokers who don’t go are making a choice. But I doubt you will understand the difference

You are trying to make a case with no proof. Please tell me how the vaccine prevents the disease everthing I read including CDC reports says it does not prevent the disease but limits the severity of the disease. So if it prevents plese show any report that actually states the prevention of the disease. I never said it wasn't effective it is just not for the purpose of lessening the severity in which case it is a personal choice and should not matter who is vac or not. 


As far as smoking. Again I agree with you no on needs to smoke I personally can not stand it. I agree with places banning it I just don't think there should be a law to ban it from happening such as out in the street etc.  

It prevents infections. Want a citation, how about this: Lancet. 2022;399(10327):814 Epub 2022 Feb 4.

Lets see if you will backtrack. Doubt it because you continue to argue medicine with me.

As to smoking, now you are backtracking. You never specified outside. Are you OK with smokers congregating just outside the door of a building so you have to walk a gauntlet of smoke to get inside?

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

I guess the question is what right do you have to risk hospitalization and jack up my insurance rates?  Someone has to make up the money insurance companies lose on all those people who landed in the hospital in ICUs and on ventilators for days/weeks/months.  Not to mention the currently unknown costs of long COVID.

Isn't that what people on these boards complain about when it comes to poor people?  Fat people?  People with Type 2 diabetes?  What gives those people the right to cost us more medically in terms of insurance premiums and out of pocket costs?

Why should vaccination be any different?

If you don't want to vaccinate fine but then you don't get to turn around and demand that others who make "lifestyle choices" you don't agree with can't receive care that they need if all it is is "personal risk" and of no consequence to others.

[djAdvocate]

that collective/social cost is almost never looked at in the US. our medicine here is done as "crisis management" rather than "prevention and planning".

so, instead of having a unified response, we are all working at the cellular level, analyzing our gains and losses individually rather than collectively. but the collective cost for our decisions in 2020 is SEVERE.

10 MILLION people currently have LONG COVID in the US. that number will keep growing, because of the unvaccinated population (primarily). that will burden our healthcare system. it will ALSO cost us in productivity. i can guarantee it. other nations that handled this better will have HIGHER productivity. so, it makes us LESS COMPETITIVE. this means lower wages, lower benefits, lower standards of living.

the job of a president is to look out for our COLLECTIVE interests. do you really trust Trump to do that? a guy who has not spent a millisecond of his life looking out for anyone other than Trump? that is truly insane.

[djAdvocate]

and not to poke the bear, but if Clinton had won, we would have had a far better response to COVID. i mean, sure, the red states would still have fought Clinton- but there would have been a mask mandate and a "project warp speed" for TESTING, which is what we actually needed. you can't fight something you can't see. and testing would have got us there.

right now, i hope the government is setting up testing at municipal waste plants to monitor disease. it is an approach that was developed in the LATE STAGES that would be extremely useful for future pandemics.

[scgal]

Dec 26, 2023 12:47:04 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

Dec 26, 2023 12:29:17 GMT -5 scgal said:

You are trying to make a case with no proof. Please tell me how the vaccine prevents the disease everthing I read including CDC reports says it does not prevent the disease but limits the severity of the disease. So if it prevents plese show any report that actually states the prevention of the disease. I never said it wasn't effective it is just not for the purpose of lessening the severity in which case it is a personal choice and should not matter who is vac or not. 


As far as smoking. Again I agree with you no on needs to smoke I personally can not stand it. I agree with places banning it I just don't think there should be a law to ban it from happening such as out in the street etc.  

It prevents infections. Want a citation, how about this: Lancet. 2022;399(10327):814 Epub 2022 Feb 4.

Lets see if you will backtrack. Doubt it because you continue to argue medicine with me.

As to smoking, now you are backtracking. You never specified outside. Are you OK with smokers congregating just outside the door of a building so you have to walk a gauntlet of smoke to get inside?

I am not arguing medicine with you. I am actually asking a valid question is there proof that taking the vaccine stops the spread of the disease and by what result. I did run the piece you put in again not the info to the question. 

As far as smoking again I don't like it, I don't like walking thru it but they have that right. I wasn't backtracking I said businesses and other govt establishments which would mean the outside is a free zone. I'll try to be more specific if you need me to.

[pulmonarymd]

Dec 26, 2023 15:04:57 GMT -5 scgal said:

Dec 26, 2023 12:47:04 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

It prevents infections. Want a citation, how about this: Lancet. 2022;399(10327):814 Epub 2022 Feb 4.

Lets see if you will backtrack. Doubt it because you continue to argue medicine with me.

As to smoking, now you are backtracking. You never specified outside. Are you OK with smokers congregating just outside the door of a building so you have to walk a gauntlet of smoke to get inside?

I am not arguing medicine with you. I am actually asking a valid question is there proof that taking the vaccine stops the spread of the disease and by what result. I did run the piece you put in again not the info to the question. 

As far as smoking again I don't like it, I don't like walking thru it but they have that right. I wasn't backtracking I said businesses and other govt establishments which would mean the outside is a free zone. I'll try to be more specific if you need me to.

No, you are not. You have a political agenda. Don't like that study. Try this one. I will summarize it for you. "Estimated effectiveness against symptomtomatic infection was 31% in those partially vaccinated, and 50% in those fully vaccinated." I am sure you will bring up asymptomatic infections. Those patients test positive. Nobody really knows how contagious they are. And nobody knows the significance in asymptomatic infections in other respiratory diseases, such as influenza.

JAMA Network Open. 2023;6(10):e2336854. Epub 2023 Oct 2.

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

vaccination lowers your viral load.  Either to where you are unlikely to pass it at all OR you are going to pass it but it will be a more mild form*.   It also allows the viral load to be at a point where your body can be more successful fighting it off.

I've been vaccinated three times and had COVID twice.  I just got it again and all I had a was a nosebleed and exhaustion.  The first time I had it which was alpha and right before vaccination I thought I was going to die and had every symptom but a cough, go figure. That was one of the scariest illnesses of my life and I was fortunate enough to not end up in the ICU with it.

I've never had the flu as far as I know or if I had it I had it mild enough I could not distinguish it from a cold.   I've been getting my flu shot yearly since 2006.

Me being vaccinated protects my grandmother because my viral load is low enough, hopefully, that I won't pass it on or will pass on a milder form of it.  Her being vaccinated lowers her chances of developing a severe case of it even further because as soon as I breath on her her immune system is going to kick into gear.

 I've read about the 1918 the idea of dying because I cough so hard I rip my abdominal muscles apart while drowing in my own mucus is horrifying.   So is knowing that due to my age and blood type I am possibly at high risk of stroke due to COVID.

I like not being dead.   I also like not having to life with the fact I killed someone else by not vaccinating. 

As far as side effects that is tricky.  During studies ANYTHING a person reports has to be listed as a side effect because there isn't a simple way to determine if the person who started the drug on Tuesday and developed a headache on Wednesday didn't develop it because of the drug.  So into the side effects it goes.

I know correlation does not equal causation.  Just because my coworker got hives after she had the vaccine does not mean the vaccine caused it.  There are A LOT of other unrelated reasons she could have developed hives.  And even if it was the vaccinine that doesn't mean that my risk of developing hives is the same.   Even if my risk went up 50% if my previous risk due to age, gender, ethnicity, overall health was 0.5% that doesn't mean I suddenly went up to 1%  I went to 50% of that 0.5% which means I am now at 0.75% (someone with better stats check my math) that is still significantly lower than the 30% chance of me developing severe COVID if I choose not to vaccinate at all.

I'll take the vaccine.  I am sorry my coworker developed hives for whatever reason and she absolutely should consult with her doctor before getting an additional shot but that has next to no impact on my decision to get it.

It also helps I've been reading about mRNA research for decades.  NONE of this is "new" in the way that people or the media want to claim it is.  It goes back to the 70s.  The holy gail would be a mRNA HIV vaccine but HIV mutates to rapidly for an mRNA vaccine to work.  There has been research for decades into developing one for corona viruses but nobody had any interest in putting significant funding into the "common cold".

The COVID shots are what happen when the government gets the hell out of the way and hands over a blank check.  When you have enough funding to properly staff and supply your lab you can get a lot done in a very short period of time.  Research you have been sitting on is given new life and you can collaborate with people in ways you couldn't before.  COVID vaccines weren't pulled out of someone's ass.  Decades and decades of research went into it all it needed as a shot in the arm to launch it to market (pun intended).

I don't remotely pretend to understand all the mRNA research and that's even with my background.  But at least I am willing to learn and try.  That is more than most people seem interested in doing and that is unfortunate.  So many treatments and advances could be made if people took five seconds to educate themselves rather than taking pride in being delibeately ignorant.

*Barring I am encountering unvaccinated, immune compromised or pregnant women.   I can give measles to an unvaccinated newborn even if I am vaccinated if I come in contact with it.  That is how contagious it is.   That doesn't seem to stop us from giving measles shots. 

[chiver78]

thank you, DQ. I can't wrap my brain around the mindset of an anti-vaxxer, who has managed to survive to adulthood today as a result of the vaccines that they themselves received because their parents used common fucking sense and the science available to them at the time. 

as someone who has to rely on herd immunity as far as flu shots go, this is a touchy subject for me. I wasn't even sure I *could* receive a COVID vax, until I looked at the processing of the mRNA versions. if not for those, I would still be unvaxxed. I'm very thankful I have this professional background to be able to understand the intricacies of what I'm signing up for. but even if I didn't, public health supersedes all IMHO, at least as far as communicable diseases go. you can choose safe sex to avoid STDs, you can't choose not to breathe in fresh air to avoid an airborne virus. 

[scgal]

Dec 26, 2023 15:21:26 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

Dec 26, 2023 15:04:57 GMT -5 scgal said:

I am not arguing medicine with you. I am actually asking a valid question is there proof that taking the vaccine stops the spread of the disease and by what result. I did run the piece you put in again not the info to the question. 

As far as smoking again I don't like it, I don't like walking thru it but they have that right. I wasn't backtracking I said businesses and other govt establishments which would mean the outside is a free zone. I'll try to be more specific if you need me to.

No, you are not. You have a political agenda. Don't like that study. Try this one. I will summarize it for you. "Estimated effectiveness against symptomtomatic infection was 31% in those partially vaccinated, and 50% in those fully vaccinated." I am sure you will bring up asymptomatic infections. Those patients test positive. Nobody really knows how contagious they are. And nobody knows the significance in asymptomatic infections in other respiratory diseases, such as influenza.

JAMA Network Open. 2023;6(10):e2336854. Epub 2023 Oct 2.

I don't know where you say I have a political agenda I haven't brought politics up at all in this. So what you are saying is there is a 19% difference in spreading the virus from vaccinated to unvaccinated.