Israel at War..

[billisonboard]

Oct 23, 2023 8:50:56 GMT -5 laterbloomer said:

Oct 22, 2023 22:33:16 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

"Millions of Jews can be relocated, as evidenced by the fact that they were relocated." You might have said "Millions of Jews can be relocated, as evidenced by the fact that they were relocated". Hear the difference?

Not enough of a difference to deny to fact that they can be relocated.

To be clear, I am not denying anti semitism. I am trying to get folks to own up to the fact that their war is a result of both anti semitism and anti palestinianism, and that even giving them Israel was in fact an act of anti semitism on the part of the allies that did/do not want them in their countries.

Yes, you got me there. With enough force and bloodshed, those who survive the process could be relocated. Of course it would be necessary to concentrate them in a small area to make it possible to guard against  them ever attempting to relocate back to Israel Palestine. 

[billisonboard]

laterbloomer , here is something to toss into the relocation process:

The State of Israel is widely believed to possess nuclear weapons. Estimates of Israel's stockpile range between 80 and 400 nuclear and the country is believed to possess the ability to deliver them in several methods, including by aircraft, as submarine-launched cruise missiles, and via the Jericho series of intermediate to intercontinental range ballistic missiles. Its first deliverable nuclear weapon is thought to have been completed in late 1966 or early 1967; which would make it the sixth country in the world to have developed them. link

Will these be relocated along with or do you think they will be used up before the move happens?

[Spellbound454]

 Their refusal to accept a 2 state solution just radicalizes the Palestinians, and the Palestinian suffering goes on.

There were no Jews in Gaza..... the rich enclave was given over to the Palestinians in 2007..... and they went on to elect Hamas

Hamas don't want a 2 state solution they want the Jews wiped off the face of the earth.
So all the money that has been poured in to the area to make life better for the Palestinians has been used for tunnels and bombs, with which to attack Israel.

They have sent multiple rockets in to Israel every day for 16 years...... imagine that!

and they have educated their children to hate.


There can be no 2 state solution with Hamas in charge.

After the massacre, the details of which are still coming through....re the hostages and the brutality
Israel don't want Hamas as neighbours anymore and they have set out to destroy their infrastructure

They are entitled to defend themselves and their people.

[Spellbound454]

 Palestine

Palestine goes much further that Israel..... it goes into Jordan (who don't want refugees from this area because of the instability they would cause)

There were no "Palestinians" before 1964 they were just Arabs

Jews and Arabs lived alongside each other for centuries until the beginning of the 20th century


en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Palestinians

[pulmonarymd]

So what is your solution? The Palestinians remain stateless? Israel annexed the West Bank, and Gaza remains a hellhole? The status quo is unsustainable. Hamas is a result of Palestinian hopelessness. Some sort of compromise is necessary. If everyone just continues acting as they are, it will continue to worsen.

From an Israeli standpoint, they have a significant demographic problem. If they annex the West Bank, Jews will eventually be a minority. Do they then remain a democracy and accept the election of a Muslim when it happens, or do they remain a Jewish state and suppress the Palestinians. The latter didn’t work out well for South Africa. The status quo will lead to de facto annexation due to their ongoing settlement policy.

Both sides can continue with an indefinite ongoing conflict, or actually try something different. But this has been going on for 75 years without a solution. Time to try a new approach

[Spellbound454]

The Palestinians are not stateless..... there were no Jews in Gaza
The West Bank is subject to a peace agreement which the Palestinians there did not sign, when they have signed the Jews there will have to vacate.

Its Hamas that has caused the suffering of its own people, who they care very little about
There can be no peace whilst they continue with their genocidal intent.

They have still got over 200 hostages, who need to be returned and those responsible tried.

With a different government there may be more chance of peace.

[pulmonarymd]

Oct 23, 2023 13:46:15 GMT -5 Spellbound454 said:

The Palestinians are not stateless..... there were no Jews in Gaza
The West Bank is subject to a peace agreement which the Palestinians there did not sign, when they have signed the Jews there will have to vacate.

Its Hamas that has caused the suffering of its own people, who they care very little about
There can be no peace whilst they continue with their genocidal intent.

They have still got over 200 hostages, who need to be returned and those responsible tried.

With a different government there may be more chance of peace.

The Gaza Strip has all the rights that an independent country has. They control their borders, can enter into treaties, etc? Nonsense, it is not an independent state. They are not citizens of a recognized country.

Your country was a big part of creating this mess after WW2.

ETA: the Palestinian residents of the West Bank are Israeli citizens? They can vote in elections? Or is Israel an occupation force, and the Palestinians remain less than full citizens? The Palestinians remain in limbo. The PA bears a large amount of the fault, but Israel has not denounced the idea of occupying all of the biblical land, so here we are

[laterbloomer]

Oct 23, 2023 9:15:22 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

laterbloomer , here is something to toss into the relocation process:

The State of Israel is widely believed to possess nuclear weapons. Estimates of Israel's stockpile range between 80 and 400 nuclear and the country is believed to possess the ability to deliver them in several methods, including by aircraft, as submarine-launched cruise missiles, and via the Jericho series of intermediate to intercontinental range ballistic missiles. Its first deliverable nuclear weapon is thought to have been completed in late 1966 or early 1967; which would make it the sixth country in the world to have developed them. link

Will these be relocated along with or do you think they will be used up before the move happens?

I'm not arguing they don't want to move. (Though i wonder if they were offered a nice conflict free space what they would say) i am saying that it would be physically possible for them to relocate/be relocated.
I don't know how to make my point any clearer and honestly I think you are purposely misunderstanding/misrepresenting what I am saying. The point is that Israel did/does not have a clear claim to Israel but no other country was willing to give them space. So in a supreme act of anti Semitism they have been set up in a location that ensures they stay in a state of neverending war. They are provided with just enough ongoing military support to keep them at war while hypocritical noises are made about those evil Palestinians. Peace can not be achieved because nobody really wants them at Peace.

[djAdvocate]

i agree with Later on this.  there are many places on God's Green Earth they could relocate.  

relocating them, willing or otherwise, to perhaps THE MOST SACRED SPOT ON EARTH was a profoundly stupid move, imo.  what did anyone expect would happen?  seriously.

[djAdvocate]

Oct 23, 2023 13:05:15 GMT -5 Spellbound454 said:

 Their refusal to accept a 2 state solution just radicalizes the Palestinians, and the Palestinian suffering goes on.

There were no Jews in Gaza..... the rich enclave was given over to the Palestinians in 2007..... and they went on to elect Hamas.

that seems like a weird description of Gaza to me.
never seen that before.

where did you get that?

[Spellbound454]

 The Gaza Strip has all the rights that an independent country has. They control their borders, can enter into treaties, etc?

They have had controls because Hamas have been continually attacked Israel.
They don't want to live in peace.............. Their sworn objective, is the destruction of Israel, the killing of all the Jews and the formation of an Islamic State.
Not the best neighbours to have, in fairness.

Israel have tried to keep a lid on it but they have gone too far this time and Israel no longer want them as neighbours.

 The point is that Israel did/does not have a clear claim to Israel

They do, its their homeland. They never left and have been living alongside Arabs all the time, since the Arab uprisings, the Ottoman empire and before that.
They have nowhere else to go.

Its the rise of the Iranian sponsored terrorist groups, which is the problem.
Egypt, Saudi and other regimes have long since made their peace.

[billisonboard]

Spellbound454 and laterbloomer, do want to thank you both for inspiring me to research on this whole topic. I am learning a lot. 

[Pink Cashmere]

Oct 23, 2023 16:36:14 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

i agree with Later on this.  there are many places on God's Green Earth they could relocate.  

relocating them, willing or otherwise, to perhaps THE MOST SACRED SPOT ON EARTH was a profoundly stupid move, imo.  what did anyone expect would happen?  seriously.

I have stayed out of this discussion, because the little I do know about the situation, is from what I was taught about them being protected and guided to a new home. That is the short, short story, because all I know about the situation is what I was taught the Bible says, and I don’t want to go too far with that, because of the Code of Conduct. 

But I must still not have paid attention in church, because I still don’t know if they (the Israelites in the Bible) and the Israelis as they are known today, are the Jews referred to in this thread. 

I freely admit that I don’t know the history, I don’t know who the Jews are, I don’t know who the Palestinians are, I don’t know who lives in Gaza, even though I also recall Gaza being mentioned in the Bible, or any of the other stuff that is causing all of this fighting. All I know is that I was taught that somewhere in the Bible, it says that they will be fighting in that part of the world, basically for forever. 

I don’t know what separates a Jew from a Christian, although I am aware of some of the American sayings that refer to Jews and not in a good way. And I know that they have been a target for hatred, throughout history, but I don’t know why.

What I do know is that I wish we could all just accept our differences, and not wage war just because another group of people does not think, believe, or live like we do. War should be a very last resort, and even then imo, it should only happen when innocent people are being slaughtered en masse, to stand up for the powerless. But even with that, my limited knowledge of history tells me that we don’t even always stand up against genocide…… we pick and choose, and it depends.

I have never been a fan of war to resolve problems, and having talked to American veterans that have seen war firsthand, and trying to hold space for them and stomach what they say the rare times that they felt safe enough to have the courage to describe some of the atrocities of war….. has made me think even more poorly of it being a way to solve problems. War is not a game. Hearing and reading about the civilians, and especially children, that are casualties of war, is not nearly the same as seeing it with your own eyes. It doesn’t feel real for most of us, because we haven’t been on the ground, fighting in one, and experiencing all the fucked up shit that happens in war.

I’m not saying that it is inappropriate to respond in kind when you are attacked and/or war is waged upon you. I am just saying that I am naive enough to wish I lived in a world where war was not initiated and fueled by desire to subdue a group of people, or to take control of the land they live on, or because they live somewhere that has natural resources that someone else values and wants control of, or even just because somebody just doesn’t like them. 

The USA is not exempt when I share those thoughts. We are not always the “good guys” our leaders would like us to believe we are. 

[laterbloomer]

Oct 23, 2023 13:22:31 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

So what is your solution? The Palestinians remain stateless? Israel annexed the West Bank, and Gaza remains a hellhole? The status quo is unsustainable. Hamas is a result of Palestinian hopelessness. Some sort of compromise is necessary. If everyone just continues acting as they are, it will continue to worsen.

From an Israeli standpoint, they have a significant demographic problem. If they annex the West Bank, Jews will eventually be a minority. Do they then remain a democracy and accept the election of a Muslim when it happens, or do they remain a Jewish state and suppress the Palestinians. The latter didn’t work out well for South Africa. The status quo will lead to de facto annexation due to their ongoing settlement policy.

Both sides can continue with an indefinite ongoing conflict, or actually try something different. But this has been going on for 75 years without a solution. Time to try a new approach

Back at you, what is your solution? Keeping in mind that both sides call getting things their own way a compromise.

[laterbloomer]

Oct 23, 2023 16:49:05 GMT -5 Spellbound454 said:

 The Gaza Strip has all the rights that an independent country has. They control their borders, can enter into treaties, etc?

They have had controls because Hamas have been continually attacked Israel.
They don't want to live in peace.............. Their sworn objective, is the destruction of Israel, the killing of all the Jews and the formation of an Islamic State.
Not the best neighbours to have, in fairness.

Israel have tried to keep a lid on it but they have gone too far this time and Israel no longer want them as neighbours.

 The point is that Israel did/does not have a clear claim to Israel

They do, its their homeland. They never left and have been living alongside Arabs all the time, since the Arab uprisings, the Ottoman empire and before that.
They have nowhere else to go.

Its the rise of the Iranian sponsored terrorist groups, which is the problem.
Egypt, Saudi and other regimes have long since made their peace.

If they have always been there why did the allies have to direct them there after WWII? Why doesn't an Israeli State already exist?

[pulmonarymd]

Oct 23, 2023 18:58:45 GMT -5 laterbloomer said:

Oct 23, 2023 13:22:31 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

So what is your solution? The Palestinians remain stateless? Israel annexed the West Bank, and Gaza remains a hellhole? The status quo is unsustainable. Hamas is a result of Palestinian hopelessness. Some sort of compromise is necessary. If everyone just continues acting as they are, it will continue to worsen.

From an Israeli standpoint, they have a significant demographic problem. If they annex the West Bank, Jews will eventually be a minority. Do they then remain a democracy and accept the election of a Muslim when it happens, or do they remain a Jewish state and suppress the Palestinians. The latter didn’t work out well for South Africa. The status quo will lead to de facto annexation due to their ongoing settlement policy.

Both sides can continue with an indefinite ongoing conflict, or actually try something different. But this has been going on for 75 years without a solution. Time to try a new approach

Back at you, what is your solution?

You don’t have one other than forcibly move no Israelis and giving Palestine back , do you? That will happen, sure.

1 Israel needs to stop building and enlarging settlements in the West Bank
2 Israel annexes settlements in areas contiguous to Israel proper
3. Israel gives an area equal in area that is contiguous to the West Bank
4 A Palestinian homeland is declared comprising the West Bank and Gaza
5 The Arab States accepts Israel’s right to exist, and agree to peace
6 The Arab States stop funding Hezbollah, Hamas, and other similar groups, and agree to hand over the leaders of those groups for trials at the World Court, and finally
7 Hamas accepts Israel’s right to exist, and is disbanded. Same thing for Hezbollah.
8 The fate of Jerusalem is negotiated as to how it is divided and administered

This allows Israel to remain a democratic and Jewish state, and they do not need to repress a significant minority(and eventual majority) of their population. Palestinians can join the world economy and tap into aid and grants

Your turn

[laterbloomer]

Oct 23, 2023 19:08:44 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

Oct 23, 2023 18:58:45 GMT -5 laterbloomer said:

Back at you, what is your solution?

You don’t have one other than forcibly move no Israelis and giving Palestine back , do you? That will happen, sure.

1 Israel needs to stop building and enlarging settlements in the West Bank
2 Israel annexes settlements in areas contiguous to Israel proper
3. Israel gives an area equal in area that is contiguous to the West Bank
4 A Palestinian homeland is declared comprising the West Bank and Gaza
5 The Arab States accepts Israel’s right to exist, and agree to peace
6 The Arab States stop funding Hezbollah, Hamas, and other similar groups, and agree to hand over the leaders of those groups for trials at the World Court, and finally
7 Hamas accepts Israel’s right to exist, and is disbanded. Same thing for Hezbollah.
8 The fate of Jerusalem is negotiated as to how it is divided and administered

This allows Israel to remain a democratic and Jewish state, and they do not need to repress a significant minority(and eventual majority) of their population. Palestinians can join the world economy and tap into aid and grants

Your turn

I did not say move them. I had not gotten anywhere near suggesting a solution, I am still trying to get people to honestly identify the issue(s)
As for your suggestions, as you so eloquently said to me, sure that will happen. Those suggestions have been floating around for a while. Can you remind me where we stand on the 2 sides agreeing to that? Oh ya, Gaza is being decimated as we speak.

[laterbloomer]

Oct 23, 2023 13:12:59 GMT -5 Spellbound454 said:

 Palestine

Palestine goes much further that Israel..... it goes into Jordan (who don't want refugees from this area because of the instability they would cause)

There were no "Palestinians" before 1964 they were just Arabs

Jews and Arabs lived alongside each other for centuries until the beginning of the 20th century


en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Palestinians

Did you actually read your own link. It doesn't support your argument.

[pulmonarymd]

Oct 23, 2023 20:46:54 GMT -5 laterbloomer said:

Oct 23, 2023 19:08:44 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

You don’t have one other than forcibly move no Israelis and giving Palestine back , do you? That will happen, sure.

1 Israel needs to stop building and enlarging settlements in the West Bank
2 Israel annexes settlements in areas contiguous to Israel proper
3. Israel gives an area equal in area that is contiguous to the West Bank
4 A Palestinian homeland is declared comprising the West Bank and Gaza
5 The Arab States accepts Israel’s right to exist, and agree to peace
6 The Arab States stop funding Hezbollah, Hamas, and other similar groups, and agree to hand over the leaders of those groups for trials at the World Court, and finally
7 Hamas accepts Israel’s right to exist, and is disbanded. Same thing for Hezbollah.
8 The fate of Jerusalem is negotiated as to how it is divided and administered

This allows Israel to remain a democratic and Jewish state, and they do not need to repress a significant minority(and eventual majority) of their population. Palestinians can join the world economy and tap into aid and grants

Your turn

I did not say move them. I had not gotten anywhere near suggesting a solution, I am still trying to get people to honestly identify the issue(s)
As for your suggestions, as you so eloquently said to me, sure that will happen. Those suggestions have been floating around for a while. Can you remind me where we stand on the 2 sides agreeing to that? Oh ya, Gaza is being decimated as we speak.

Far more likely than moving them. You offer nothing. The fact that what I wrote has been out there is because it is the only logical answer given the realities on the ground. They can either continue the status quo, or compromise.

Nobody can make them compromise. When they finally decide they have suffered enough, we will see a solution. Just like the US House. They eventually will find a speaker, once the consequences become severe enough.

You keep talking about moving them, which is nonsensical. Do you have another option, or are you just going to continue in that vein and criticize

[laterbloomer]

Oct 23, 2023 22:28:01 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

Oct 23, 2023 20:46:54 GMT -5 laterbloomer said:

I did not say move them. I had not gotten anywhere near suggesting a solution, I am still trying to get people to honestly identify the issue(s)
As for your suggestions, as you so eloquently said to me, sure that will happen. Those suggestions have been floating around for a while. Can you remind me where we stand on the 2 sides agreeing to that? Oh ya, Gaza is being decimated as we speak.

Far more likely than moving them. You offer nothing. The fact that what I wrote has been out there is because it is the only logical answer given the realities on the ground. They can either continue the status quo, or compromise.

Nobody can make them compromise. When they finally decide they have suffered enough, we will see a solution. Just like the US House. They eventually will find a speaker, once the consequences become severe enough.

You keep talking about moving them, which is nonsensical. Do you have another option, or are you just going to continue in that vein and criticize

You aren't offering anything. You are regurgitating ideas that have already been rejected by the parties involved. Your suggestion is to keep doing the same thing that has resulted in the current seige of Gaza.
And I will repeat, not for you but for those that might be getting sucked in by the fact that you keep repeating the lie, I am not suggesting to move them. I am rejecting the statement that they can't be moved as a justification for contributing to keeping them at war. If someone was willing to give them a safe place to settle, but no one will out of anti semitism. So it's not that they logistically can't move. They won't move because no one will give them a place to go. Saying that the Palestinians want them wiped off the face of the earth as if the Palestinians are the only ones responsible for this is a lie.

[Spellbound454]

 If they have always been there why did the allies have to direct them there after WWII? Why doesn't an Israeli State already exist?

They were living under an Ottoman Empire (Turkey)
Jews and Arabs helped to expel the Ottomans on behalf of the UK.....and our government said they could share the land.
Many Arabs went off to Jordan some stayed in what is now Israel with the Jews.
We never wanted there to be an Israeli state and tried to block it..... but that's what the Zionists wanted.
After WW11 and given what they had suffered, the Jews were left to go to Israel in larger numbers.

They turned the desert into the prosperous country it is now but the neighbours didn't like it

Larger neighbours Egypt, Syria and the Saudis have long since made peace but more extremist elements have not.

[Spellbound454]

1 Israel needs to stop building and enlarging settlements in the West Bank

2 Israel annexes settlements in areas contiguous to Israel proper

3. Israel gives an area equal in area that is contiguous to the West Bank

These 3 are subject to a peace treaty which their government have not signed.
Once signed, the Israelis would legally have to leave, whilst it isn't signed the area belongs to both parties.
Israel gained lots of territory after the 6 day war.... much of which has been given back, except the West bank in its entireity.

4 A Palestinian homeland is declared comprising the West Bank and Gaza

They have different governments. Hamas in Gaza and PNA (Fatah) in the West Bank shared with Israel in certain districts..
Hamas and Fatah fell out and Hamas took control of the Gaza strip.
It would be better if the PNA had control in Gaza seeing as they can actually live in relative peace.

5 The Arab States accepts Israel’s right to exist, and agree to peace.

They do except for Iran and its proxies....(Iran is not technically Arab)

6 The Arab States stop funding Hezbollah, Hamas, and other similar groups, and agree to hand over the leaders of those groups for trials at the World Court,

They largely don't, apart from Qatar and a few others,  Hamas, Hezbollah, are Shia and proxies of Iran (who want their ring of fire to surround Israel and force an Islamic state). The other Countries are a different sort of Islam so they aren't as bothered. This is why the neighbouring Countries wont take Palestinian refugees, they can't be bothered with the trouble.
Most of the larger Countries don't want anything to do with Iran ...... but won't go against the Arab League. 

7 Hamas accepts Israel’s right to exist, and is disbanded. Same thing for Hezbollah.

That won't happen. The Hamas charter calls for the destruction of Israel, the killing of all the Jews and the establishment of an Islamic state.
"from the river to the sea"..... like stupid, bored students are chanting with no more understanding than a "free Palestine" meme.

8 The fate of Jerusalem is negotiated as to how it is divided and administered

Already done. Its a bit of a hot spot but the legislation is in place.

My assessment is that Hamas needs to go.... and the Gaza strip needs to be governed by the PNA
The peace treaties need signing and both sides need to stick to the agreements.
Iran needs to stay our of it.

The hostages all need to be released and the organisers put on trial. Israel is very damaged and is behaving like a wounded animal. This will give them some restitution.

A couple of weeks ago there was to be treaty signed between the US, Israel and the Saudis. It would have brought loads of new investment in to the areas.
Its no longer on the table..... but should be imo.

[Spellbound454]

 You keep talking about moving them, which is nonsensical

You have no right to suggest that another Country moves. How would you like that?
Its their homeland, they have built it up from nothing but desert ... and they have no place else to go.
They will fight to the death because its all they have. (and they are a nuclear power)

 I’m not saying that it is inappropriate to respond in kind when you are attacked and/or war is waged upon you.

Remember the "war on terror" after 9.11?
Do you remember how hurt you, and the rest of the World were?

We are not in a position to say that another democratic state can't seek retribution,

[djAdvocate]

Oct 24, 2023 5:12:16 GMT -5 Spellbound454 said:

 You keep talking about moving them, which is nonsensical

You have no right to suggest that another Country moves. How would you like that?
Its their homeland, they have built it up from nothing but desert ... and they have no place else to go.
They will fight to the death because its all they have. (and they are a nuclear power)

 I’m not saying that it is inappropriate to respond in kind when you are attacked and/or war is waged upon you.

Remember the "war on terror" after 9.11?
Do you remember how hurt you, and the rest of the World were?

We are not in a position to say that another democratic state can't seek retribution,

well, you have that right.  our reaction to 911 was 100% wrong, and the SAME WEEK, Israel declared Hamas a terrorist organization.  so, US policies do indeed have consequences, and we are fantastically responsible for what is going on there, today.

that doesn't mean it is right.  that doesn't mean that Israel's assertions are correct, either.  we made massive mistakes in the wake of 911.  they were never against our values.  they were against the fact that we have invaded their lands and subverted their culture.

we have never been able to talk about this issue sensibly since 911.  and i get that.  trauma doesn't lead to sensible conversation.  it does, however, lead inexorably to retribution.  which perpetuates the violence and ensures endless wars.  which is to the benefit of the few and the detriment of many.

i really don't get why common people can't see past this ruse.

[Pink Cashmere]

Oct 24, 2023 5:12:16 GMT -5 Spellbound454 said:

 You keep talking about moving them, which is nonsensical

You have no right to suggest that another Country moves. How would you like that?
Its their homeland, they have built it up from nothing but desert ... and they have no place else to go.
They will fight to the death because its all they have. (and they are a nuclear power)

 I’m not saying that it is inappropriate to respond in kind when you are attacked and/or war is waged upon you.

Remember the "war on terror" after 9.11?
Do you remember how hurt you, and the rest of the World were?

We are not in a position to say that another democratic state can't seek retribution,

I am confused by your response to my sentence you quoted. Can you read the sentence I wrote again and tell me if your response is still the same?

[billisonboard]

There are people who are dedicating their entire existence towards developing a peaceful way forward. While it would be really cool if one of us who hang out here were to provide that way, I think it is highly unlikely. Seems a bit pointless to fault posters for failure to have the answer.

[Spellbound454]

 I am confused by your response to my sentence you quoted. Can you read the sentence I wrote again and tell me if your response is still the same?

I'm validating what you said Pink when you suggested that its not inappropriate to respond in kind
We did the same at a time of National grief.

Israel must be allowed to protect itself and its citizens.

Biden went to Israel and warned them not to make retribution their aim
but in essence that's not what we did..... So, are not in a position to tell anyone else what to do.

Israel seems to be seeking to protect civilians by asking them to move South
Hamas don't wear uniforms, they also lie as part of their jihad
so. its a bit difficult to know who are the terrorists and who aren't

Using human shields is against the Geneva convention
but these guys are terrorists and have no respect for conventions.

[NastyWoman]

The flickering light of a candle of hope?

www.nbcnews.com/news/world/israel-hamas-war-jews-arabs-jaffa-civil-guard-urban-unrest-fear-rcna122111

People like these may be the best hope the area has

[ripvanwinkle]

We have a guy at work who is our resident conspiracy theorist. He comes up with some wild stuff. He's Jewish and pro Israel. Today he said the war is going to go like this. Israel will stomp the crap out of Hamas and the Palestine people. Then they will raise the white flag surrender. And because they are a now defeated "nation", other nations will come to their aid by making up a new Marshal plan like in Europe after WWII.

Billions of dollars and materials will flow to rebuild their infrastructure, roads, buildings and housing will all be fixed. They will be better off than before the war. It''s a win win for Hamas and the Palestine people.

[Opti]

Israel approved the deal brokered by the US and Qatar. Hamas approved it first. Not sure of the details but the news said something about a three tiered hostage release. The news said it would happen during small periods of ceasefire.

I am cautiously optimistic. Much will depend on what happens on the first release and if all act in good faith. I hope at least some hostages can be home in time for the winter holidays.