Israel at War..

[djAdvocate]

Poland, maybe?  i am super tired.  heading to bed......

[Spellbound454]

 have they?

Yes the Jews were there from about 3000 years ago.
The land became Arab in about the 7th century as part of the Arab conquests.
then it was part of the Ottoman empire(turkey) until 1912.

As for Hamas they want an Islamic State .... and we saw how brutal that lot are.

Israel is the only democracy in the area and they are surrounded by people who would murder them

[djAdvocate]

whoosh.


i am not getting into a discussion about anthropology.  i will just say this chosen land and chosen people argument is not going to win me over.  something like 90% of Jews that immigrated to Israel after WW2 had no ancestry there (for over a thousand years).  

we are all children of Africa.  does that mean that we should take over Namibia and declare it a "world village"?  i don't care for the prima face argumentative.  but i get that Jews want a place where they won't be murdered.

they could not have chosen a worse place, as YOUR REPLY illustrates.

PS- my son is Jewish, so it is not like i don't get wide swaths of this discussion, Jewish people, or the implications of WW2/Israel.

[laterbloomer]

Oct 21, 2023 3:01:37 GMT -5 Spellbound454 said:

 have they?

Yes the Jews were there from about 3000 years ago.
The land became Arab in about the 7th century as part of the Arab conquests.
then it was part of the Ottoman empire(turkey) until 1912.

As for Hamas they want an Islamic State .... and we saw how brutal that lot are.

Israel is the only democracy in the area and they are surrounded by people who would murder them

See that part of there being Jews there over 1200 years ago but not since then doesn't really convince me they have a valid claim to the place.

[billisonboard]

Decide it once and for all: Cage fight - God of the Bible v. Allah.

[dondubble]

For information purposes only:

www.ojp.gov/ncjrs/virtual-library/abstracts/jewish-zionist-terrorism-and-establishment-israel

[pulmonarymd]

Arguing about whether they should be there or not is pointless. They are there now. Who is going to absorb millions of Jews? Which country is going to volunteer? There is not a place for them that will accept them with open arms. Given that reality, we need to deal with the reality that exists today.

Hamas and other terror groups as well as Iran do not accept Israel’s right to exist. Most other Arab countries grudgingly accept it at best.

Israel has never really accepted a 2 state solution, and has acceded to there religious conservatives by acting as if annexation of the West Bank is a fait accompli. No one cares about Gaza, and Israel will not accept an independent state there as long as Hamas exists.

Israel needs to decide if it wants to be a democracy or a Jewish state. Demographics are not in its favor. If it officially annexes the West Bank, Jews will eventually be a minority. What happens then? Hamas and other Arabs need to accept Israel being there, and at least have a cold detente with Israel. But since that does not serve the true believers cause, and requires politicians to tell their constituents uncomfortable truths, nothing gets done

[Tennesseer]

So ripvanwinkle:  what do you think about the doxxing of pro-Palestinian Harvard students?

Group escalates doxxing campaign against pro-Palestinian Harvard students

The man leading the doxxing campaign of pro-Palestinian Harvard students said his group is going to take it a step further.

Adam Guillette, 42, the president of Accuracy in Media, a conservative organization dedicated to holding "public and private officials accountable," according to its website, facilitated a truck displaying the names of Harvard students who signed onto a controversial letter denouncing Israel in the wake of the Oct. 7 attack by Hamas. Hamas has been designated by the United States as a terrorist organization.

The debate on campus has made Harvard a microcosm of sorts, reflecting the national debate on the conflict.

Guillette, who is Jewish, said his organization’s next move, which has already started, is to create online domains essentially using the students’ first and last names to create sites identifying them as antisemitic.

"I think it's incredibly important for people to know who the antisemites are on their campus and in their community," Guillette told ABC News. "Ideally, I'd love for everyone to abandon any hateful beliefs they might hold. I'd love for them to apologize for the antisemitic proclamation that they signed."

Rest of article here:  Group escalates doxxing campaign against pro-Palestinian Harvard students

[djAdvocate]

right.

the Moors controlled parts or all of Spain about the same time.  does that mean Morocco can declare Spain part of Morocco?

using a more recent example, the Ottomans controlled ALL of the Middle_East until 1914- barely 100 years ago.  does that mean Turkiye can occupy the entire middle East?

this argument is so cherry picked that it literally never makes sense.

[Tennesseer]

Oct 21, 2023 12:34:56 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Decide it once and for all: Cage fight - God of the Bible v. Allah.

How many rounds?

[djAdvocate]

Oct 21, 2023 12:44:33 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

Arguing about whether they should be there or not is pointless. They are there now. e

i actually agree with that.  i just wish we would stop claiming that the Jews (or any of us really) have any sort of claim to anywhere we are.  we don't.  we are all global citizens.  99% of us are immigrants.  even our INDIGENOUS population came here from elsewhere.

we should stop this business of claiming land for ourselves, and just agree that we are here, and allow others to be here, as well.  that is actually fundamental to my position on immigration.  i have no claim to this place.  we have been here for 10 generations.  but we were in Germany and England much longer before we came here.  Germany doesn't belong to me, and neither does the US.  i just live here as long as i choose to.

so, then the issue becomes how does Israel exist peacefully?

[djAdvocate]

Oct 21, 2023 12:49:43 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

Oct 21, 2023 12:34:56 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Decide it once and for all: Cage fight - God of the Bible v. Allah.

How many rounds?

are they really any different?  Islam argues that Christ was a prophet of God.

[Tennesseer]

Oct 21, 2023 12:52:29 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

Oct 21, 2023 12:44:33 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

Arguing about whether they should be there or not is pointless. They are there now. e

i actually agree with that.  i just wish we would stop claiming that the Jews (or any of us really) have any sort of claim to anywhere we are.  we don't.  we are all global citizens.  99% of us are immigrants.  even our INDIGENOUS population came here from elsewhere.

we should stop this business of claiming land for ourselves, and just agree that we are here, and allow others to be here, as well.  that is actually fundamental to my position on immigration.  i have no claim to this place.  we have been here for 10 generations.  but we were in Germany and England much longer before we came here.  Germany doesn't belong to me, and neither does the US.  i just live here as long as i choose to.

so, then the issue becomes how does Israel exist peacefully?

It's pretty much all about this and will be for eternity:

Why Jerusalem is so important to Muslims, Christians and Jews

[Tennesseer]

Oct 21, 2023 12:53:38 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

Oct 21, 2023 12:49:43 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

How many rounds?

are they really any different?  Islam argues that Christ was a prophet of God.

But we are talking about a cage fight. Much like world wrestling entertainment.

[djAdvocate]

Oct 21, 2023 12:56:51 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

Oct 21, 2023 12:52:29 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

i actually agree with that.  i just wish we would stop claiming that the Jews (or any of us really) have any sort of claim to anywhere we are.  we don't.  we are all global citizens.  99% of us are immigrants.  even our INDIGENOUS population came here from elsewhere.

we should stop this business of claiming land for ourselves, and just agree that we are here, and allow others to be here, as well.  that is actually fundamental to my position on immigration.  i have no claim to this place.  we have been here for 10 generations.  but we were in Germany and England much longer before we came here.  Germany doesn't belong to me, and neither does the US.  i just live here as long as i choose to.

so, then the issue becomes how does Israel exist peacefully?

It's pretty much all about this and will be for eternity:

Why Jerusalem is so important to Muslims, Christians and Jews

i am not sure i agree that it will go on forever.  i think it will go on as long as we BELIEVE that all people of this world should NOT have equal access to Jerusalem.  

just like this situation with Speaker of the House, the best solution is consensus and working together.  until we get that, i agree that the conflict will continue.

forever is a very long time.  eventually, for example, the Sun will consume Earth in the death throes of the solar system.

[pulmonarymd]

As long as we have leaders who are unwilling/unable to make difficult and unpopular decisions, this will go on. In addition, as long as we continue with all or nothing thinking, nothing will be solved. Compromise is now a dirty word. Incremental change is no longer good enough. The problem seems to be getting worse, not better. Unfortunately, human nature does not change.

When we decide that we want things to get better. It will get better. But too many people cannot see beyond the status quo, so nothing gets doe. We can either deal with how things are, or how we wish them to be. I know which one works better

[thyme4change]

Oct 21, 2023 12:52:29 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

Oct 21, 2023 12:44:33 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

Arguing about whether they should be there or not is pointless. They are there now. e

i actually agree with that.  i just wish we would stop claiming that the Jews (or any of us really) have any sort of claim to anywhere we are.  we don't.  we are all global citizens.  99% of us are immigrants.  even our INDIGENOUS population came here from elsewhere.

we should stop this business of claiming land for ourselves, and just agree that we are here, and allow others to be here, as well.  that is actually fundamental to my position on immigration.  i have no claim to this place.  we have been here for 10 generations.  but we were in Germany and England much longer before we came here.  Germany doesn't belong to me, and neither does the US.  i just live here as long as i choose to.

so, then the issue becomes how does Israel exist peacefully?

When people tell me that Israel was there 1500 years ago - therefore the Palestinians are the invaders I always chicken out of asking ‘If a Native American knocks on your door, will you hand them the keys and move out?’

[ripvanwinkle]

Oct 21, 2023 12:47:23 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

So ripvanwinkle :  what do you think about the doxxing of pro-Palestinian Harvard students?

Group escalates doxxing campaign against pro-Palestinian Harvard students

The man leading the doxxing campaign of pro-Palestinian Harvard students said his group is going to take it a step further.

Adam Guillette, 42, the president of Accuracy in Media, a conservative organization dedicated to holding "public and private officials accountable," according to its website, facilitated a truck displaying the names of Harvard students who signed onto a controversial letter denouncing Israel in the wake of the Oct. 7 attack by Hamas. Hamas has been designated by the United States as a terrorist organization.

The debate on campus has made Harvard a microcosm of sorts, reflecting the national debate on the conflict.

Guillette, who is Jewish, said his organization’s next move, which has already started, is to create online domains essentially using the students’ first and last names to create sites identifying them as antisemitic.

"I think it's incredibly important for people to know who the antisemites are on their campus and in their community," Guillette told ABC News. "Ideally, I'd love for everyone to abandon any hateful beliefs they might hold. I'd love for them to apologize for the antisemitic proclamation that they signed."

Rest of article here:  Group escalates doxxing campaign against pro-Palestinian Harvard students

My first thought is it sounds like a good idea. I'm not religious. Outing our future teachers or leaders who espouse hatred need to be outed. People who protest with masks on are cowards.

[Tennesseer]

Oct 21, 2023 15:07:16 GMT -5 ripvanwinkle said:

Oct 21, 2023 12:47:23 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

So ripvanwinkle :  what do you think about the doxxing of pro-Palestinian Harvard students?

Group escalates doxxing campaign against pro-Palestinian Harvard students

The man leading the doxxing campaign of pro-Palestinian Harvard students said his group is going to take it a step further.

Adam Guillette, 42, the president of Accuracy in Media, a conservative organization dedicated to holding "public and private officials accountable," according to its website, facilitated a truck displaying the names of Harvard students who signed onto a controversial letter denouncing Israel in the wake of the Oct. 7 attack by Hamas. Hamas has been designated by the United States as a terrorist organization.

The debate on campus has made Harvard a microcosm of sorts, reflecting the national debate on the conflict.

Guillette, who is Jewish, said his organization’s next move, which has already started, is to create online domains essentially using the students’ first and last names to create sites identifying them as antisemitic.

"I think it's incredibly important for people to know who the antisemites are on their campus and in their community," Guillette told ABC News. "Ideally, I'd love for everyone to abandon any hateful beliefs they might hold. I'd love for them to apologize for the antisemitic proclamation that they signed."

Rest of article here:  Group escalates doxxing campaign against pro-Palestinian Harvard students

My first thought is it sounds like a good idea. I'm not religious. Outing our future teachers or leaders who espouse hatred need to be outed. People who protest with masks on are cowards.

Based on your answer, once again, you didn't surprise me. Then it must be okay with you to dox anyone including religious folks, politicians and the like. You cannot be fine with doxxing one group but not okay with doxxing others. Got it.

[laterbloomer]

Oct 21, 2023 12:44:33 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

Arguing about whether they should be there or not is pointless. They are there now. Who is going to absorb millions of Jews? Which country is going to volunteer? There is not a place for them that will accept them with open arms. Given that reality, we need to deal with the reality that exists today.

But that's the point, we are being told not to deal with the reality that no one else will take them in so we stole a bunch of the Arab's territory to give them. Instead we make the Palestinians the bad guys to justify the atrocities being inflicted on them.

[pulmonarymd]

Oct 21, 2023 16:27:13 GMT -5 laterbloomer said:

Oct 21, 2023 12:44:33 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

Arguing about whether they should be there or not is pointless. They are there now. Who is going to absorb millions of Jews? Which country is going to volunteer? There is not a place for them that will accept them with open arms. Given that reality, we need to deal with the reality that exists today.

But that's the point, we are being told not to deal with the reality that no one else will take them in so we stole a bunch of the Arab's territory to give them. Instead we make the Palestinians the bad guys to justify the atrocities being inflicted on them.

Irrelevant. They are there. Hoping or wishing they aren’t doesn’t work. And don’t forget why they are there. The Holocaust led to this. Agree or disagree with what was done, it was in response to a singularly horrific event. No one wanted to see it repeated. Yet, there was enough anti-Semitism in the world that the solution was to give them a homeland so we didn’t need to deal with them. They didn’t foresee the blowback.

We cannot change what was done. Again, even if Israel decided to disband the country, where do those millions of people go. They can’t stay there. Do you honestly think allowing the Palestinians have their country back leads to peaceful co-existence. The reality on the ground needs to be recognized and dealt with. Arguing about whether the Jewish state should exist is pointless

[laterbloomer]

Oct 21, 2023 16:35:43 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

Oct 21, 2023 16:27:13 GMT -5 laterbloomer said:

But that's the point, we are being told not to deal with the reality that no one else will take them in so we stole a bunch of the Arab's territory to give them. Instead we make the Palestinians the bad guys to justify the atrocities being inflicted on them.

Irrelevant. They are there. Hoping or wishing they aren’t doesn’t work. And don’t forget why they are there. The Holocaust led to this. Agree or disagree with what was done, it was in response to a singularly horrific event. No one wanted to see it repeated. Yet, there was enough anti-Semitism in the world that the solution was to give them a homeland so we didn’t need to deal with them. They didn’t foresee the blowback.

We cannot change what was done. Again, even if Israel decided to disband the country, where do those millions of people go. They can’t stay there. Do you honestly think allowing the Palestinians have their country back leads to peaceful co-existence. The reality on the ground needs to be recognized and dealt with. Arguing about whether the Jewish state should exist is pointless

Well actually we could change what was done. And I'm not arguing about whether there should be a Jewish state. I'm saying be fucking honest about what was done. And be honest about the fact that millions of Jews COULD go somewhere else. We don't want to give them somewhere else. If you're/we're going to do it, own it. Don't keep carrying on as if the Palestinians just started attacking for no reason.

[pulmonarymd]

Oct 21, 2023 22:11:33 GMT -5 laterbloomer said:

Oct 21, 2023 16:35:43 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

Irrelevant. They are there. Hoping or wishing they aren’t doesn’t work. And don’t forget why they are there. The Holocaust led to this. Agree or disagree with what was done, it was in response to a singularly horrific event. No one wanted to see it repeated. Yet, there was enough anti-Semitism in the world that the solution was to give them a homeland so we didn’t need to deal with them. They didn’t foresee the blowback.

We cannot change what was done. Again, even if Israel decided to disband the country, where do those millions of people go. They can’t stay there. Do you honestly think allowing the Palestinians have their country back leads to peaceful co-existence. The reality on the ground needs to be recognized and dealt with. Arguing about whether the Jewish state should exist is pointless

Well actually we could change what was done. And I'm not arguing about whether there should be a Jewish state. I'm saying be fucking honest about what was done. And be honest about the fact that millions of Jews COULD go somewhere else. We don't want to give them somewhere else. If you're/we're going to do it, own it. Don't keep carrying on as if the Palestinians just started attacking for no reason.

You are being nonsensical. Millions of Jews cannot be relocated. There is no place for them to go. No one will take them. Are they safe in Russia? Is China taking in 10 million people. Are we? Nowhere in Europe wants them, they already have their own issues with immigration. Is Canada willing to accept 10 million migrants?

Now, I agree that no one anticipated what a mess the creation Israel would cause. The Palestinian refugees were and are used as pawns in this, and no Arab country wants them. Israel doesn’t want yo accept a Palestinian state, and their far right is as crazy as the far right here in the US and more fanatical. Their refusal to accept a 2 state solution just radicalizes the Palestinians, and the Palestinian suffering goes on. Focusing on these issues, instead of arguing if Israel has a “right” to be there and exist is what will solve the problem.

[billisonboard]

In regards to the "who'd a thunk it" comments: Origins and Evolution of the Palestine Problem: 1917-1947 (Part I)

This from the The King-Crane Commission (1919)

“If that principle is to rule, and so the wishes of Palestine’s population are to be decisive as to what is to be done with Palestine, then it is to be remembered that the non-Jewish population of Palestine – nearly nine-tenths of the whole – are emphatically against the entire Zionist programme. The tables show that there was no one thing upon which the population of Palestine were more agreed than upon this. To subject a people so minded to unlimited Jewish immigration, and to steady financial and social pressure to surrender the land, would be a gross violation of the principle just quoted, and of the peoples’ rights though it kept within the forms of law;…

“The Peace Conference should not shut its eyes to the fact that the anti-Zionist feeling in Palestine and Syria is intense and not lightly to be flouted. No British Officer consulted by the Commissioners believed that the Zionist programme could be carried out except by force of arms. The officers generally thought that a force of not less than 50,000 soldiers would be required even to initiate the programme. That of itself is evidence of a strong sense of the injustice of the Zionist programme, on the part of the non-Jewish populations of Palestine and Syria. Decisions, requiring armies to carry out, are sometimes necessary, but they are surely not gratuitously to be taken in the interests of a serious injustice. For the initial claim, often submitted by Zionist representatives, that they have a “right” to Palestine, based on an occupation of two thousand years ago, can hardly be seriously considered.”

and

The Revolt of 1929

The “Churchill Memorandum” reaffirmed the “national home” policy, and Palestinian resentment again broke out into violence in August 1929, sparked by a dispute over the Wailing Wall in Jerusalem. The clashes between Palestinians and Jews left 220 dead and 520 injured on both sides, and British reinforcements, including aircraft, naval vessels and armoured cars, had to be called in from outside Palestine before the situation was brought under control.

Clearly there was thought and evidence things would not go smoothly in the actions after WWII.

[laterbloomer]

Oct 22, 2023 4:47:58 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

Oct 21, 2023 22:11:33 GMT -5 laterbloomer said:

Well actually we could change what was done. And I'm not arguing about whether there should be a Jewish state. I'm saying be fucking honest about what was done. And be honest about the fact that millions of Jews COULD go somewhere else. We don't want to give them somewhere else. If you're/we're going to do it, own it. Don't keep carrying on as if the Palestinians just started attacking for no reason.

You are being nonsensical. Millions of Jews cannot be relocated. There is no place for them to go. No one will take them. Are they safe in Russia? Is China taking in 10 million people. Are we? Nowhere in Europe wants them, they already have their own issues with immigration. Is Canada willing to accept 10 million migrants?

Now, I agree that no one anticipated what a mess the creation Israel would cause. The Palestinian refugees were and are used as pawns in this, and no Arab country wants them. Israel doesn’t want yo accept a Palestinian state, and their far right is as crazy as the far right here in the US and more fanatical. Their refusal to accept a 2 state solution just radicalizes the Palestinians, and the Palestinian suffering goes on. Focusing on these issues, instead of arguing if Israel has a “right” to be there and exist is what will solve the problem.

Millions of Jews can be relocated, as evidenced by the fact that they were relocated. The fact that no one wants them is the most honest thing you said.
Stop trying to gaslight me. What you want to discuss is how we are going to force the Palestinians to accept the Jewish state we are imposing on them. Quit trying to make it sound like anything other than that.

[billisonboard]

Oct 22, 2023 21:07:06 GMT -5 laterbloomer said:

Oct 22, 2023 4:47:58 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

You are being nonsensical. Millions of Jews cannot be relocated. There is no place for them to go. No one will take them. Are they safe in Russia? Is China taking in 10 million people. Are we? Nowhere in Europe wants them, they already have their own issues with immigration. Is Canada willing to accept 10 million migrants?

Now, I agree that no one anticipated what a mess the creation Israel would cause. The Palestinian refugees were and are used as pawns in this, and no Arab country wants them. Israel doesn’t want yo accept a Palestinian state, and their far right is as crazy as the far right here in the US and more fanatical. Their refusal to accept a 2 state solution just radicalizes the Palestinians, and the Palestinian suffering goes on. Focusing on these issues, instead of arguing if Israel has a “right” to be there and exist is what will solve the problem.

Millions of Jews can be relocated, as evidenced by the fact that they were relocated. The fact that no one wants them is the most honest thing you said.
Stop trying to gaslight me. What you want to discuss is how we are going to force the Palestinians to accept the Jewish state we are imposing on them. Quit trying to make it sound like anything other than that.

Jews were "relocated"? By whom? From where?

This tells a different story: HOLOCAUST SURVIVORS AND THE ESTABLISHMENT OF THE STATE OF ISRAEL (MAY 14, 1948)

[laterbloomer]

Oct 22, 2023 21:38:01 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Oct 22, 2023 21:07:06 GMT -5 laterbloomer said:

Millions of Jews can be relocated, as evidenced by the fact that they were relocated. The fact that no one wants them is the most honest thing you said.
Stop trying to gaslight me. What you want to discuss is how we are going to force the Palestinians to accept the Jewish state we are imposing on them. Quit trying to make it sound like anything other than that.

Jews were "relocated"? By whom? From where?

This tells a different story: HOLOCAUST SURVIVORS AND THE ESTABLISHMENT OF THE STATE OF ISRAEL (MAY 14, 1948)

How do you think the Jews currently in Israel got there? They relocated from elsewhere after WWII. Not to mention their own stories from the Old Testament.

[billisonboard]

Oct 22, 2023 21:58:21 GMT -5 laterbloomer said:

Oct 22, 2023 21:38:01 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Jews were "relocated"? By whom? From where?

This tells a different story: HOLOCAUST SURVIVORS AND THE ESTABLISHMENT OF THE STATE OF ISRAEL (MAY 14, 1948)

How do you think the Jews currently in Israel got there? They relocated from elsewhere after WWII. Not to mention their own stories from the Old Testament.

"Millions of Jews can be relocated, as evidenced by the fact that they were relocated." You might have said "Millions of Jews can be relocated, as evidenced by the fact that they were relocated". Hear the difference?

[pulmonarymd]

Oct 22, 2023 21:58:21 GMT -5 laterbloomer said:

Oct 22, 2023 21:38:01 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Jews were "relocated"? By whom? From where?

This tells a different story: HOLOCAUST SURVIVORS AND THE ESTABLISHMENT OF THE STATE OF ISRAEL (MAY 14, 1948)

How do you think the Jews currently in Israel got there? They relocated from elsewhere after WWII. Not to mention their own stories from the Old Testament.

They went voluntarily. They were not forcibly relocated. How are they going to be relocated now. You think they are going to leave of their own accord? If not, how do we relocate them. You clearly think Israel shouldn’t exist, so we should just round all the Jews up and deposit them somewhere. I know someone else who thought that way.

Unless you forcibly make the Jews leave Israel, we need to deal with the situation as it is. I am not gaslighting you, I just looking at things as they are,, not as I wish them to be

[laterbloomer]

Oct 22, 2023 22:33:16 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Oct 22, 2023 21:58:21 GMT -5 laterbloomer said:

How do you think the Jews currently in Israel got there? They relocated from elsewhere after WWII. Not to mention their own stories from the Old Testament.

"Millions of Jews can be relocated, as evidenced by the fact that they were relocated." You might have said "Millions of Jews can be relocated, as evidenced by the fact that they were relocated". Hear the difference?

Not enough of a difference to deny to fact that they can be relocated.

To be clear, I am not denying anti semitism. I am trying to get folks to own up to the fact that their war is a result of both anti semitism and anti palestinianism, and that even giving them Israel was in fact an act of anti semitism on the part of the allies that did/do not want them in their countries.