Israel at War..

[Tennesseer]

Oct 18, 2023 10:18:18 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

Oct 18, 2023 7:59:44 GMT -5 resolution said:

From what I have read, there are a number of reasons.

• The official talking point is that they are afraid that if they take in all of the Palestinians and Gaza is emptied out, that the Palestinians will never have a homeland because there will be no pressure to bring them back.
• Another reason is that Hamas started out as part of the Muslim Brotherhood, which was overthrown by a military coup in Egypt and is banned by them.
• Countries that have taken in Palestinian refugees, such as Lebanon and Jordan, ended up with multiple civil wars and assassinations as the Palestinians tried to take over. 

None of this is the fault of the general Palestinian population in Gaza, most of whom are under 18. I wish someone would take them in or that they would come up with a real two state solution that produces a livable environment for everyone. All the current situation is going to do is to continue fanning the flames of war.

the Muslim Brotherhood was started by Sayyd Qutb like....65 years ago?  he was executed in Egypt decades ago.  most of his followers are rotting away in prison or dead.  is there EVER a time that is past for punishment like this, or does it really need to go for three generations?

Blood feuds live for generations.

[Tennesseer]

Oct 18, 2023 7:59:44 GMT -5 resolution said:

Oct 18, 2023 7:20:12 GMT -5 happyhoix said:

Also confusing - both Jordan and Egypt are refusing to accept Palestinian refugees. Why wouldn’t you let civilians escape a war zone?

From what I have read, there are a number of reasons.

• The official talking point is that they are afraid that if they take in all of the Palestinians and Gaza is emptied out, that the Palestinians will never have a homeland because there will be no pressure to bring them back.
• Another reason is that Hamas started out as part of the Muslim Brotherhood, which was overthrown by a military coup in Egypt and is banned by them.
• Countries that have taken in Palestinian refugees, such as Lebanon and Jordan, ended up with multiple civil wars and assassinations as the Palestinians tried to take over. 

None of this is the fault of the general Palestinian population in Gaza, most of whom are under 18. I wish someone would take them in or that they would come up with a real two state solution that produces a livable environment for everyone. All the current situation is going to do is to continue fanning the flames of war.

My understanding about the hospital catastrophe is Israel is saying it was not them because if it had been them and bombing, the hospital building would be destroyed and pretty much dust. Those who mostly died in the hospital according to Israel died by fire and not the hospital falling in on them.

[djAdvocate]

bombing the hospital would be a war crime.

that might also figure into the arithmetic.

[djAdvocate]

it is hard for me to fathom that kind of intergenerational hatred.  but of course, i have heard the stories.  Hatfields and McCoys, etc.

[resolution]

Oct 18, 2023 11:27:36 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

it is hard for me to fathom that kind of intergenerational hatred.  but of course, i have heard the stories.  Hatfields and McCoys, etc.

How do you think the children in Gaza right now feel about Israel after growing up in an open air prison?
How do you think the children in Israel feel about Gaza after watching all the atrocities?
We are watching the next generation of hatred forming before our eyes.

[hurley1980]

This is all so sad! And there doesn't seem to be a resolution at all.  Where is Druig when we need him?!?!

[djAdvocate]

Oct 18, 2023 12:03:23 GMT -5 resolution said:

Oct 18, 2023 11:27:36 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

it is hard for me to fathom that kind of intergenerational hatred.  but of course, i have heard the stories.  Hatfields and McCoys, etc.

How do you think the children in Gaza right now feel about Israel after growing up in an open air prison?
How do you think the children in Israel feel about Gaza after watching all the atrocities?
We are watching the next generation of hatred forming before our eyes.

i was saying that because i have not suffered it, revolution.
so, i have no idea.  i mean that very sincerely.
that does NOT mean i am indifferent to suffering, if that is
what you were trying to imply.  i only need sympathy for that.

[resolution]

Oct 18, 2023 18:23:49 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

Oct 18, 2023 12:03:23 GMT -5 resolution said:

How do you think the children in Gaza right now feel about Israel after growing up in an open air prison?
How do you think the children in Israel feel about Gaza after watching all the atrocities?
We are watching the next generation of hatred forming before our eyes.

i was saying that because i have not suffered it, revolution.
so, i have no idea.  i mean that very sincerely.
that does NOT mean i am indifferent to suffering, if that is
what you were trying to imply.  i only need sympathy for that.

I didn't mean to cast aspersions on your empathy so I apologize if I came across that way.

I have been reading through the Old Testament for the past few months and it has really stuck me that this has been going on for thousands of years; the weapons have changed but the people haven't changed. I have been impatient to get back to the New Testament because I had forgotten how awful the old one could be.

[djAdvocate]

Oct 18, 2023 18:33:23 GMT -5 resolution said:

Oct 18, 2023 18:23:49 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

i was saying that because i have not suffered it, revolution.
so, i have no idea.  i mean that very sincerely.
that does NOT mean i am indifferent to suffering, if that is
what you were trying to imply.  i only need sympathy for that.

I didn't mean to cast aspersions on your empathy so I apologize if I came across that way.

I have been reading through the Old Testament for the past few months and it has really stuck me that this has been going on for thousands of years; the weapons have changed but the people haven't changed.

i didn't post that with any angst.  i was just trying to clarify what you were saying.  thanks for clearing it up.  no offense either way?

[resolution]

Oct 18, 2023 18:35:04 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

Oct 18, 2023 18:33:23 GMT -5 resolution said:

I didn't mean to cast aspersions on your empathy so I apologize if I came across that way.

I have been reading through the Old Testament for the past few months and it has really stuck me that this has been going on for thousands of years; the weapons have changed but the people haven't changed.

i didn't post that with any angst.  i was just trying to clarify what you were saying.  thanks for clearing it up.  no offense either way?

No offense intended or taken on my part, I am a bit emotional about the situation in the middle east though.

[Pink Cashmere]

I am ignorant about the backstory with the current fighting in that part of the world, except for seeming to remember from going to church regularly when I was younger, being taught that something in the Bible basically says that they will be fighting for forever. That is not exactly what was said, I am repeating it in my own words. 

Anyway, I am just chiming in to say that I appreciate how djAdvocate and resolution handled what could’ve gone sideways, by offering and being receptive to each other trying to provide clarity, and continuing the conversation peacefully, instead of  just fighting with each other. 

[laterbloomer]

Oct 18, 2023 20:29:50 GMT -5 Pink Cashmere said:

I am ignorant about the backstory with the current fighting in that part of the world, except for seeming to remember from going to church regularly when I was younger, being taught that something in the Bible basically says that they will be fighting for forever. That is not exactly what was said, I am repeating it in my own words.  

I have a hard time taking a side in that war. I don't see a clear good guy. If I understand my history correctly, allied countries took part of the Palestinians territory from them to give to Jewish people so that they didn't get a large migration of Jews into their countries after WWII. I can understand why that would upset the Palestinians. On the other hand I don't understand where the world wide, genocidal antisemitism comes from and that seems cruel to the Jews. I really don't understand the whole mess.

[djAdvocate]

wars are generally not ginned up by the citizens of a nation.
they are generally ginned up by the government.

they are most tragic when the government fails to represent the people.
but they are generally pretty tragic, even when they do.

when we bombed the shit out of Iraq, for basically no reason whatsoever, we killed 50,000 children.  fast forward 20 years later and there is wall to wall coverage when Hamas kills 1% as many.  now mind you, ONE is too many.  but nobody in the US even discusses it.

this is not whataboutism.  i am just wondering why the US is not called barbaric and terrorists.  something to ponder.

[chiver78]

Oct 18, 2023 23:06:58 GMT -5 laterbloomer said:

Oct 18, 2023 20:29:50 GMT -5 Pink Cashmere said:

I am ignorant about the backstory with the current fighting in that part of the world, except for seeming to remember from going to church regularly when I was younger, being taught that something in the Bible basically says that they will be fighting for forever. That is not exactly what was said, I am repeating it in my own words.  

I have a hard time taking a side in that war. I don't see a clear good guy. If I understand my history correctly, allied countries took part of the Palestinians territory from them to give to Jewish people so that they didn't get a large migration of Jews into their countries after WWII. I can understand why that would upset the Palestinians. On the other hand I don't understand where the world wide, genocidal antisemitism comes from and that seems cruel to the Jews. I really don't understand the whole mess.

this is pretty much where I'm at. I'm reading a lot to try to educate myself more, as if I'm missing something.

[laterbloomer]

Oct 18, 2023 23:48:41 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

wars are generally not ginned up by the citizens of a nation.
they are generally ginned up by the government.

they are most tragic when the government fails to represent the people.
but they are generally pretty tragic, even when they do.

when we bombed the shit out of Iraq, for basically no reason whatsoever, we killed 50,000 children.  fast forward 20 years later and there is wall to wall coverage when Hamas kills 1% as many.  now mind you, ONE is too many.  but nobody in the US even discusses it.

this is not whataboutism.  i am just wondering why the US is not called barbaric and terrorists.  something to ponder.

They are, but we dismiss the countries that do it as terrorists and jihadists.

[billisonboard]

Oct 18, 2023 23:48:41 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

wars are generally not ginned up by the citizens of a nation.
they are generally ginned up by the government.

they are most tragic when the government fails to represent the people.
but they are generally pretty tragic, even when they do.

when we bombed the shit out of Iraq, for basically no reason whatsoever, we killed 50,000 children.  fast forward 20 years later and there is wall to wall coverage when Hamas kills 1% as many.  now mind you, ONE is too many.  but nobody in the US even discusses it.

this is not whataboutism.  i am just wondering why the US is not called barbaric and terrorists.  something to ponder.

AND: there is a post earlier which uses the term "cowards". There is this from a previous US war:

Frustrated by mounting losses and the guerrillas' dogged resilience, U.S. air forces eventually pivoted to a strategic bombing role, unleashing huge formations of heavy B-52 bombers against North Vietnamese cities in the hopes of demoralizing the enemy and crippling the North's economy. Releasing their payloads from the edge of the stratosphere, where they could be neither seen nor heard from the ground, these flying behemoths pummeled suspected enemy positions with relative impunity—albeit with limited accuracy.

I don't see that as a brave strategy.

[djAdvocate]

Oct 19, 2023 7:46:03 GMT -5 laterbloomer said:

Oct 18, 2023 23:48:41 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

wars are generally not ginned up by the citizens of a nation.
they are generally ginned up by the government.

they are most tragic when the government fails to represent the people.
but they are generally pretty tragic, even when they do.

when we bombed the shit out of Iraq, for basically no reason whatsoever, we killed 50,000 children.  fast forward 20 years later and there is wall to wall coverage when Hamas kills 1% as many.  now mind you, ONE is too many.  but nobody in the US even discusses it.

this is not whataboutism.  i am just wondering why the US is not called barbaric and terrorists.  something to ponder.

They are, but we dismiss the countries that do it as terrorists and jihadists.

when a state butchers an entire population for no reason, that is pre-preemptive war (illegal according to the UN Charter, and a war crime).  when a non-state actor does it, it is terrorism.

before 911 terrorism had a different definition which would have included actions that the US has taken dozens of times since WW2.

[Spellbound454]

 when a non-state actor does it, it is terrorism

There can be no doubt that Hamas, which is the government of Gaza are terrorists.

Children tied up and burned alive, women killed, stripped naked and paraded, babies murdered in their cots

They are a proxy of Iran as are Hezbollah in Lebanon .......... and an affiliate of the Muslim brotherhood.

Egypt doesn't want them because of the instability they may cause.
and nor does anyone else by the looks of things.

[djAdvocate]

Oct 19, 2023 16:55:13 GMT -5 Spellbound454 said:

 when a non-state actor does it, it is terrorism

There can be no doubt that Hamas, which is the government of Gaza are terrorists.

then technically, they are not terrorists, according to OUR definition of terrorism in the US.

i am not disagreeing with you, btw.

do you agree that killing 50k children in a purposeless war is terrorism?  if not, why not?

how about dragging babies over barbed wire in front of their mothers?  does that qualify?  the Samosistas did with our blessing and training.

[laterbloomer]

I'm not saying they're not terrorists i'm saying the others are too

[djAdvocate]

we love to call Iran the #1 state sponsor of terrorism.

but i lived through the Contras.

the World Court CONVICTED us of doing exactly the same thing.

[thyme4change]

I heard on the radio today a Gaza resident said something like …

I use to call Gaza an open air prison, now I call Gaza an open air grave.

[laterbloomer]

Oct 19, 2023 21:50:24 GMT -5 thyme4change said:

I heard on the radio today a Gaza resident said something like …

I use to call Gaza an open air prison, now I call Gaza an open air grave.

😔

[dondubble]

Oct 19, 2023 17:07:07 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

we love to call Iran the #1 state sponsor of terrorism.

but i lived through the Contras.

the World Court CONVICTED us of doing exactly the same thing.

“Freedom Fighters” running coke to LA for Freeway Ricky Ross while Nancy just said no to drugs.🥷🏿

[ripvanwinkle]

I sure hope a lot more college Philanthropist follow their lead -https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/19/business/harvard-upenn-donors-israel/index.html

And companies check their potential hires social media pages to see if they support terrorism and anti Jew.

[Tennesseer]

Oct 20, 2023 20:03:48 GMT -5 ripvanwinkle said:

I sure hope a lot more college Philanthropist follow their lead -https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/19/business/harvard-upenn-donors-israel/index.html

And companies check their potential hires social media pages to see if they support terrorism and are anti Jew anti-Semitic.

Fixed it for you. You were sounding like these guys.

[Tennesseer]

Oct 20, 2023 20:03:48 GMT -5 ripvanwinkle said:

I sure hope a lot more college Philanthropist follow their lead -https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/19/business/harvard-upenn-donors-israel/index.html

And companies check their potential hires social media pages to see if they support terrorism and anti Jew.

As for the message of your post, I will defend Israel's right to defend itself. But I can only feel sorry for the innocent Palestinians who have been injured and killed by Israel's retaliation. The majority of those living in Gaza just want to live in peace. It is a shame Hamas has put their people's lives and existence in mortal jeopardy.

A peaceful solution is a must and needs to happen soon for both Israel and the people of Gaza. Too much death. Too much destruction. And both peoples have lived in this same area for millennia.

[djAdvocate]

have they?  

[laterbloomer]

Oct 20, 2023 22:36:38 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

have they?  

Haven't they?

[djAdvocate]

Oct 20, 2023 22:49:15 GMT -5 laterbloomer said:

Oct 20, 2023 22:36:38 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

have they?  

Haven't they?

i don't know much about Jewish culture prior to the dark ages.  but since then, they have been primarily in North Africa, Eastern Europe and .... I can't remember the third place right now, but it is not Israel.

if you meant to say "in ancient times" then sure.  i guess if we are technical, none of us can trace our ancestries to where we are, other than possibly Africans.