I taught my 6-year-old about the Holocaust and got sent to..

[tallguy]

Apr 12, 2023 11:33:21 GMT -5 Spellbound454 said:

I know they are opinion pieces... and when looking for commentary on the US, I would firstly go to your quality news outlets.
Whats wrong with that?

Because I think Brooks is generally considered to be conservative, not a mouthpiece for "the left."  Saying that the New York Times isn't right-wing is irrelevant.

[pulmonarymd]

The NYT at least tries to have their opinion page have some kind of balance, and has conservative writers, Brooks is clearly a conservative, although he would be considered a moderate republican in the old days. This is the difference between living in a country vs trying to understand a country from the outside. 

[djAdvocate]

Apr 12, 2023 11:21:11 GMT -5 Spellbound454 said:

Apr 12, 2023 11:02:02 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

you sure about that?
i'm not.
again, being woke is being aware.
how is it possible for an educator to be have a problem with that?

www.nytimes.com/2022/06/01/opinion/woke-culture-backlash-movement.html
www.nytimes.com/2021/05/13/opinion/this-is-how-wokeness-ends.html..... New York Times isn't right wing.


I do realise, of course, that is is being weaponised by Republicans to gain political advantage....

but that's not where I'm coming from ... much of Europe doesn't like this either, and not a Republican or Right Winger in sight.

or threat to the Social Democratic establishment.

i can't read that, because of paywall issues.  but you should be aware that 60% of opinion journalism in the US is conservative. including the NYT.

[djAdvocate]

Apr 12, 2023 11:37:22 GMT -5 tallguy said:

Apr 12, 2023 11:33:21 GMT -5 Spellbound454 said:

I know they are opinion pieces... and when looking for commentary on the US, I would firstly go to your quality news outlets.
Whats wrong with that?

Because I think Brooks is generally considered to be conservative, not a mouthpiece for "the left."  Saying that the New York Times isn't right-wing is irrelevant.

exactly. 

the NYT offers diverse opinion.
they are not particularly liberal, except in the minds of conservatives.

[djAdvocate]

Apr 12, 2023 11:33:21 GMT -5 Spellbound454 said:

I know they are opinion pieces... and when looking for commentary on the US, I would firstly go to your quality news outlets.
Whats wrong with that?

nothing. 

but i was not looking for you to quote the NYT.  consider the question food for thought.

[grumpyhermit]

Apr 12, 2023 11:33:21 GMT -5 Spellbound454 said:

I know they are opinion pieces... and when looking for commentary on the US, I would firstly go to your quality news outlets.
Whats wrong with that?

Assuming that even "respected" new organizations, especially those in the US, are without a political slant. 

They all have bias cooked in to their reporting, most especially if you are looking at opinion pieces. You really have to engage with each piece critically, and on a case by case basis. 

The New York Times is also interesting in that depending on who you ask, you are likely going to get very different answers on to how you think the paper leans. 

As a liberal - I tend to think it carries a right wing slant. Republicans would strongly disagree. 

[weltschmerz]

Apr 11, 2023 15:38:42 GMT -5 Spellbound454 said:

 Now, if the general idea is that some psychologically relevant stage of development starts around age 2 and is complete around age 7, demonstrated by a significant shift that is noticeable by age 7, I could get on board with that. That particular linked article though, with the examples used in it, that wasn't my takeaway at all.

Piagets started exploring Child Development a hundred years ago...... There has been many theories since then, either extending his ideas or presenting something completely different.
but he was the one mentioned and probably the best known, so I went with that.

If there is any criticism of it, its because his ideas have quite rigid cut offs in terms of age.

I believe its still used.... look in any educational establishment for younger children and its full of pictures.


The next stage described would be this.... Concrete Operational Stage 7-11


Begin to think logically about concrete events

Begin to understand the concept of conservation; that the amount of liquid in a short, wide cup is equal to that in a tall, skinny glass, for example

Thinking becomes more logical and organized, but still very concrete

Begin using inductive logic, or reasoning from specific information to a general principle. 

and what they can't seem to do is think abstractly.

We are losing Holocaust survivors at a rapid pace. We don't have the luxury of sitting around waiting until kids are "old enough" to hear the stories. I agree with the mother's position this is her family history she is telling the child about and it's critical it get passed down to the next generation before it is too late.

Isn't the fact that the Holocaust is not being taught enough..... the real crux of the matter?
There are plenty of books and materials that can cover the issues in an age appropriate manner, which a young child will be able to make sense of.

Then as they progress to High School, put it on the curriculum.

Oh, but they did have an age-appropriate book. Maus. Have you heard of it?
It was banned.

[andi9899]

Apr 12, 2023 12:06:16 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

Apr 12, 2023 11:21:11 GMT -5 Spellbound454 said:

www.nytimes.com/2022/06/01/opinion/woke-culture-backlash-movement.html
www.nytimes.com/2021/05/13/opinion/this-is-how-wokeness-ends.html..... New York Times isn't right wing.


I do realise, of course, that is is being weaponised by Republicans to gain political advantage....

but that's not where I'm coming from ... much of Europe doesn't like this either, and not a Republican or Right Winger in sight.

or threat to the Social Democratic establishment.

i can't read that, because of paywall issues.  but you should be aware that 60% of opinion journalism in the US is conservative. including the NYT.

NYT is basically the Fox News of journalism.

[djAdvocate]

Apr 12, 2023 14:51:32 GMT -5 andi9899 said:

Apr 12, 2023 12:06:16 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

i can't read that, because of paywall issues.  but you should be aware that 60% of opinion journalism in the US is conservative. including the NYT.

NYT is basically the Fox News of journalism.

i would describe NYT as centrist.
i would describe NYP and WT as the Fox News of journalism.

and i cringed slightly when i typed "journalism".
the three of them despise journalism.

[pulmonarymd]

I agree with DJ. The post is a right wing rag, as is the Washington times. The NYT still tries to be a fair minded newspaper

[Spellbound454]

What about the Washington Post.... seems quite left and those of us who don't live in the US quite often have a scout through that as a trusted source along with the NYT

[NastyWoman]

Apr 12, 2023 11:21:11 GMT -5 Spellbound454 said:

Apr 12, 2023 11:02:02 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

you sure about that?
i'm not.
again, being woke is being aware.
how is it possible for an educator to be have a problem with that?

www.nytimes.com/2022/06/01/opinion/woke-culture-backlash-movement.html
www.nytimes.com/2021/05/13/opinion/this-is-how-wokeness-ends.html..... New York Times isn't right wing.


I do realise, of course, that is is being weaponised by Republicans to gain political advantage....

but that's not where I'm coming from ... much of Europe doesn't like this either, and not a Republican or Right Winger in sight.

or threat to the Social Democratic establishment.

If you mean that the American Republicans don't get to vote in most circumstances (dual citizenship may provide exceptions) you are correct. But not a Right Winger is sight? HA!  There are plenty (far too many and nothing I, as a European, am proud of) Right Wingers in Europe who are trying to push through their agenda exactly like they do here in the US. And it doesn't paint a prettier picture either. If you can't see that you may want to start looking a little closer at the big picture 

[chiver78]

Apr 12, 2023 17:22:34 GMT -5 NastyWoman said:

Apr 12, 2023 11:21:11 GMT -5 Spellbound454 said:

www.nytimes.com/2022/06/01/opinion/woke-culture-backlash-movement.html
www.nytimes.com/2021/05/13/opinion/this-is-how-wokeness-ends.html..... New York Times isn't right wing.


I do realise, of course, that is is being weaponised by Republicans to gain political advantage....

but that's not where I'm coming from ... much of Europe doesn't like this either, and not a Republican or Right Winger in sight.

or threat to the Social Democratic establishment.

If you mean that the American Republicans don't get to vote in most circumstances (dual citizenship may provide exceptions) you are correct. But not a Right Winger is sight? HA!  There are plenty (far too many and nothing I, as a European, am proud of) Right Wingers in Europe who are trying to push through their agenda exactly like they do here in the US. And it doesn't paint a prettier picture either. If you can't see that you may want to start looking a little closer at the big picture 

I   you, thank you for chiming in. 

[pulmonarymd]

The Washington Post is a centrist newspaper as well. You have to look at smaller papers in cities like NY, SF, Berkeley and the like to find a true leftist paper.

Something like the village voice in NYC. I would consider hysterical a more left wing paper.

The NYT, Washington Post, and LA Times are all good, middle of the road, fair papers

[djAdvocate]

Apr 12, 2023 16:50:08 GMT -5 Spellbound454 said:

What about the Washington Post.... seems quite left and those of us who don't live in the US quite often have a scout through that as a trusted source along with the NYT

i don't have an opinion to offer.  i don't read it.  but these guys do:

cms9files.revize.com/goshencountysd/GCSDLib/HSchools/Media-Bias-Chart-7.0_January-2021-Licensed-Copy-kqpxtc.pdf

they rate both publications center left, and WaPo rated slightly LESS reliable.

they are both vastly more reliable and centrist than Fox and the other papers mentioned.

[djAdvocate]

Apr 12, 2023 17:28:56 GMT -5 chiver78 said:

Apr 12, 2023 17:22:34 GMT -5 NastyWoman said:

If you mean that the American Republicans don't get to vote in most circumstances (dual citizenship may provide exceptions) you are correct. But not a Right Winger is sight? HA!  There are plenty (far too many and nothing I, as a European, am proud of) Right Wingers in Europe who are trying to push through their agenda exactly like they do here in the US. And it doesn't paint a prettier picture either. If you can't see that you may want to start looking a little closer at the big picture 

I   you, thank you for chiming in. 

yeah.  Victor Orban comes to mind.  as does Marie LePen.
but sure.  no right wingers in Europe.  right.  all moderates and leftists.
you betcha.

[Knee Deep in Water Chloe]

[NastyWoman]

Nice to see that AP is at the top of the heap as that is one of my main sources of news. And the others are in the layer just below that. 
On the other hand it is the number of highly right leaning news sources in the lowest/ fairy tale is scary. As are those two left leaning sources, one of which is close to fairy tale land and the other is squarely in it.

[weltschmerz]

Apr 15, 2023 10:22:30 GMT -5 Knee Deep in Water Chloe said:

Maybe it's my bad eyes, but I don't see the CBC on that chart.

[kadee79]

I dislike the "age appropriate." part.  No 2 children are alike and what one can understand & rationalize, another may not be able to yet...or possibly never able to rationalize a given situation.  So "age appropriate" depends on each individual child...not some number plucked from mid air!

[billisonboard]

Apr 24, 2023 19:38:38 GMT -5 kadee79 said:

I dislike the "age appropriate." part.  No 2 children are alike and what one can understand & rationalize, another may not be able to yet...or possibly never able to rationalize a given situation.  So "age appropriate" depends on each individual child...not some number plucked from mid air!

Yes, total individualized determinations of what to teach and then delivering lessons to each individual child would be great. Willing to fund schools to that level?

Schools have to operate on what students are likely, based on teacher and administrators education and experience, able to process at certain grade levels.

[NastyWoman]

Apr 24, 2023 21:12:10 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Apr 24, 2023 19:38:38 GMT -5 kadee79 said:

I dislike the "age appropriate." part.  No 2 children are alike and what one can understand & rationalize, another may not be able to yet...or possibly never able to rationalize a given situation.  So "age appropriate" depends on each individual child...not some number plucked from mid air!

Yes, total individualized determinations of what to teach and then delivering lessons to each individual child would be great. Willing to fund schools to that level?

Schools have to operate on what students are likely, based on teacher and administrators education and experience, able to process at certain grade levels.

This is not about what the school teaches at what age though, it is about what a parent teaches a child (and raising children, surprise I know, IS done at an individual level) and what rights someone who teaches by age (not even age group to recognize individual differences) has to berate a parent about what is or is not appropriate for an individual child.

This is about a parent telling her child about the holocaust. What is next? We can no longer tell girls about their menses before they reach grade 6? After all there are people who think earlier is not  "age appropriate" 

[billisonboard]

Apr 24, 2023 21:28:00 GMT -5 NastyWoman said:

Apr 24, 2023 21:12:10 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Yes, total individualized determinations of what to teach and then delivering lessons to each individual child would be great. Willing to fund schools to that level?

Schools have to operate on what students are likely, based on teacher and administrators education and experience, able to process at certain grade levels.

This is not about what the school teaches at what age though, it is about what a parent teaches a child (and raising children, surprise I know, IS done at an individual level) and what rights someone who teaches by age (not even age group to recognize individual differences) has to berate a parent about what is or is not appropriate for an individual child.

This is about a parent telling her child about the holocaust. What is next? We can no longer tell girls about their menses before they reach grade 6? After all there are people who think earlier is not  "age appropriate" 

Does the OP describe "berat(ing)" to you? It doesn't reach that level to me. YMMV.

I can understand how a parent with a strong sense of family history could put a great deal of time and effort into teaching the Holocaust to a very young kid. Does not mean it is age appropriate for 6 year olds.

Are you granting the same level of expertise to teachers/administrators on education issues and male state legislators on female medical issues?

[Tennesseer]

As antisemitism rises, Holocaust education is a deeply personal topic for me

In my 37-year tenure as a California public school teacher, I’ve seen the way the Holocaust is studied and taught change greatly. But in recent years, I’ve also seen an alarming uptick in antisemitic attitudes and behavior permeate our schools and communities nationwide.

Across the United States, antisemitic incidents have risen 36% in the past year – reaching the highest recorded level since the 1970s, when the Anti-Defamation League began tracking them.

Whereas before students could hear survivors speak directly about their experiences, as they pass on, I have had to seek other dynamic ways to instill in my students an understanding of the Holocaust that goes beyond the literature. To make clear what this rhetoric can lead to when unaddressed, it’s essential that students don’t just memorize dates and names, but also are challenged to really understand and question how and why the Holocaust happened. This is how we truly learn from history.

For instance, part of our curriculum – and a majority of American educational curricula – is to read "Anne Frank: The Diary Of A Young Girl." This is an effective way to teach about the Holocaust because it personalizes the tragic story and presents it through the lens of a child, often close in age to the students who are reading her. It is an important part of our curriculum, but in today’s world, teachers need to do more to bring history to life for their students.

Holocaust education is also a deeply personal topic for me, as my grandmother's family was murdered at Auschwitz. This is why I was immediately enticed by the opportunity to bring my students to the exhibit "Auschwitz. Not long ago. Not far away."at the Ronald Reagan Presidential Library in Simi Valley, California, last month.

Rest of article here: As antisemitism rises, Holocaust education is a deeply personal topic for me

[billisonboard]

To make clear what this rhetoric can lead to when unaddressed, it’s essential that students don’t just memorize dates and names, but also are challenged to really understand and question how and why the Holocaust happened. This is how we truly learn from history.

At what age is a developing brain able to do this? At what stage in a young person's education do they have enough general knowledge of the world to understand the context of the Holocaust?

[Tennesseer]

May 27, 2023 12:07:59 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

To make clear what this rhetoric can lead to when unaddressed, it’s essential that students don’t just memorize dates and names, but also are challenged to really understand and question how and why the Holocaust happened. This is how we truly learn from history.

At what age is a developing brain able to do this? At what stage in a young person's education do they have enough general knowledge of the world to understand the context of the Holocaust?

If five-year-olds are old enough to be given books narrated by Winnie the Pooh on how to survive school shootings, then the are old enough to learn age appropriate information about the Holocaust. School drills of active shooters in the schools too. School shootings and drills are a pretty adult subjects but here we are. (Posted the article below yesterday on a different thread.)

5-year-old children in Texas are being given Winnie the Pooh books that teach them how to survive a school shooting

[billisonboard]

May 27, 2023 12:18:57 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

May 27, 2023 12:07:59 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

To make clear what this rhetoric can lead to when unaddressed, it’s essential that students don’t just memorize dates and names, but also are challenged to really understand and question how and why the Holocaust happened. This is how we truly learn from history.

At what age is a developing brain able to do this? At what stage in a young person's education do they have enough general knowledge of the world to understand the context of the Holocaust?

If five-year told are old enough to be given books narrated by Winnie the Pooh on how to survive school shootings, then the are old enough to learn age appropriate information about the Holocaust. School drills of active shooter in the schools too. School shootings and drills are a pretty adult subjects but here we are. (Posted the article below yesterday on a different thread.)

5-year-old children in Texas are being given Winnie the Pooh books that teach them how to survive a school shooting

That is assuming there is "age appropriate information on the Holocaust". An active shooter is an immediate life or death situation for a five year old. I do not see a risk to life or limb if a child under about 16 is not aware of the Holocaust.

[Tennesseer]

May 27, 2023 12:32:38 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

May 27, 2023 12:18:57 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

If five-year told are old enough to be given books narrated by Winnie the Pooh on how to survive school shootings, then the are old enough to learn age appropriate information about the Holocaust. School drills of active shooter in the schools too. School shootings and drills are a pretty adult subjects but here we are. (Posted the article below yesterday on a different thread.)

5-year-old children in Texas are being given Winnie the Pooh books that teach them how to survive a school shooting

That is assuming there is "age appropriate information on the Holocaust". An active shooter is an immediate life or death situation for a five year old. I do not see a risk to life or limb if a child under about 16 is not aware of the Holocaust.

More than likely there was never a book for five year olds on where to hide when there is an active shooter in their school until now. So someone finally wrote an age appropriate book for them.

No reason why an age appropriate book about the Holocaust could not be written for five-year-olds too. After all, approximately 1.5 million mostly Jewish children died as a result of Nazi actions. Too bad those 1.5 million children didn't have a book back then telling them where to hide from the Nazis. Life and death for those kids too.

[billisonboard]

May 27, 2023 15:40:00 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

May 27, 2023 12:32:38 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

That is assuming there is "age appropriate information on the Holocaust". An active shooter is an immediate life or death situation for a five year old. I do not see a risk to life or limb if a child under about 16 is not aware of the Holocaust.

More than likely there was never a book for five year olds on where to hide when there is an active shooter in their school until now. So someone finally wrote an age appropriate book for them.

No reason why an age appropriate book about the Holocaust could not be written for five-year-olds too. After all, approximately 1.5 million mostly Jewish children died as a result of Nazi actions. Too bad those 1.5 million children didn't have a book back then telling them where to hide from the Nazis. Life and death for those kids too.

I would agree that a book back then for those kids would have been appropriate.

The reason why an age 5 appropriate book about the Holocaust can not be written is that there is no significant age appropriate material to include in it, based on the criteria you posted:

To make clear what this rhetoric can lead to when unaddressed, it’s essential that students don’t just memorize dates and names, but also are challenged to really understand and question how and why the Holocaust happened. This is how we truly learn from history.

[billisonboard]

I have been thinking about age appropriate books. I found one for the teaching of calculus to very young children:



And this resource for young age appropriate books on the Holocaust: 41 of the Best Picture Books about Acceptance

These books about acceptance include scenarios of self-acceptance, acceptance of others, and acceptance of situations out of our control. They focus on the importance of being yourself, self-esteem and empathy for others.

Calculus and the Holocaust are advanced lessons to be taught after a lot of other material is learned.