I taught my 6-year-old about the Holocaust and got sent to..

[djAdvocate]

i think it is actually pretty good.

[Spellbound454]

 Now, if the general idea is that some psychologically relevant stage of development starts around age 2 and is complete around age 7, demonstrated by a significant shift that is noticeable by age 7, I could get on board with that. That particular linked article though, with the examples used in it, that wasn't my takeaway at all.

Piagets started exploring Child Development a hundred years ago...... There has been many theories since then, either extending his ideas or presenting something completely different.
but he was the one mentioned and probably the best known, so I went with that.

If there is any criticism of it, its because his ideas have quite rigid cut offs in terms of age.

I believe its still used.... look in any educational establishment for younger children and its full of pictures.


The next stage described would be this.... Concrete Operational Stage 7-11


Begin to think logically about concrete events

Begin to understand the concept of conservation; that the amount of liquid in a short, wide cup is equal to that in a tall, skinny glass, for example

Thinking becomes more logical and organized, but still very concrete

Begin using inductive logic, or reasoning from specific information to a general principle. 

and what they can't seem to do is think abstractly.

We are losing Holocaust survivors at a rapid pace. We don't have the luxury of sitting around waiting until kids are "old enough" to hear the stories. I agree with the mother's position this is her family history she is telling the child about and it's critical it get passed down to the next generation before it is too late.

Isn't the fact that the Holocaust is not being taught enough..... the real crux of the matter?
There are plenty of books and materials that can cover the issues in an age appropriate manner, which a young child will be able to make sense of.

Then as they progress to High School, put it on the curriculum.

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

The point was the principal has no right to lecture the mother about what she chooses to teach her child in her own home.  If she wants to teach her child her family history at age 6 that is her business.  She never asked the principal to include it in the curriculum at that age.  The principal should have dropped it as soon as it was explained what the picture was.

If Captain Snowflake demands he have the right to personally vet every single thing being taught to his kid then I have equal right to do the same.  The principal can fuck right off regarding what I choose to teach my child in my own home.  It is immaterial that the principal does not agree with me there is no harm being done choosing to teach a kid about the holocaust especially when it is in regards to her own family history.

If THAT is what we are going to start judging as bad parenting then JFC we have devolved as a society.

I explained the KKK to my child at that age because we saw an art piece about it.  I told her exactly what those 12 chairs, the hoods and the noose meant.  Not a single person lectured me for how inappropriate I was being.  I actually had people come up to me and thank me for taking the time to educate her rather than rushing her off.

I put in context in regards to her friends and I told her those type of people still exist and she needs to be an advocate and use the privilege she has to speak up.  I am proud of her for being "woke" and that started early with me teaching her rather than hiding her from it.

[djAdvocate]

amen

[Spellbound454]

..........and there we have the Woke agenda....which is what this is really about since the example is actually pretty poor.


"The strength of a person’s character and the value of their life are defined not by what problems have been placed in their path but instead by what they have done to turn those obstacles into opportunities. A victimhood mindset grants a momentary feeling of power and moral superiority but does not improve any lives in the long run."



No "wallowing in victimhood" movement has ever lasted 1 minute past the ballot count ...........because its simply not a political strategy you can run a Country with.

People have to have accountability

[billisonboard]

Apr 12, 2023 3:10:45 GMT -5 Spellbound454 said:

..........and there we have the Woke agenda....which is what this is really about since the example is actually pretty poor.


"The strength of a person’s character and the value of their life are defined not by what problems have been placed in their path but instead by what they have done to turn those obstacles into opportunities. A victimhood mindset grants a momentary feeling of power and moral superiority but does not improve any lives in the long run."



No "wallowing in victimhood" movement has ever lasted 1 minute past the ballot count ...........because its simply not a political strategy you can run a Country with.

People have to have accountability

What the hell does this have to do with this thread topic?

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

Apr 12, 2023 8:27:23 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Apr 12, 2023 3:10:45 GMT -5 Spellbound454 said:

..........and there we have the Woke agenda....which is what this is really about since the example is actually pretty poor.


"The strength of a person’s character and the value of their life are defined not by what problems have been placed in their path but instead by what they have done to turn those obstacles into opportunities. A victimhood mindset grants a momentary feeling of power and moral superiority but does not improve any lives in the long run."



No "wallowing in victimhood" movement has ever lasted 1 minute past the ballot count ...........because its simply not a political strategy you can run a Country with.

People have to have accountability

What the hell does this have to do with this thread topic?

I feel like I have an idea but I am not going to put it into words because my response to it will get me perma-banned.

[Spellbound454]

Apr 12, 2023 8:27:23 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Apr 12, 2023 3:10:45 GMT -5 Spellbound454 said:

..........and there we have the Woke agenda....which is what this is really about since the example is actually pretty poor.


"The strength of a person’s character and the value of their life are defined not by what problems have been placed in their path but instead by what they have done to turn those obstacles into opportunities. A victimhood mindset grants a momentary feeling of power and moral superiority but does not improve any lives in the long run."



No "wallowing in victimhood" movement has ever lasted 1 minute past the ballot count ...........because its simply not a political strategy you can run a Country with.

People have to have accountability

What the hell does this have to do with this thread topic?

In Reply to 122

 I put in context in regards to her friends and I told her those type of people still exist and she needs to be an advocate and use the privilege she has to speak up. I am proud of her for being "woke" and that started early with me teaching her rather than hiding her from it.

[djAdvocate]

Apr 12, 2023 3:10:45 GMT -5 Spellbound454 said:

..........and there we have the Woke agenda....which is what this is really about since the example is actually pretty poor.


"The strength of a person’s character and the value of their life are defined not by what problems have been placed in their path but instead by what they have done to turn those obstacles into opportunities. A victimhood mindset grants a momentary feeling of power and moral superiority but does not improve any lives in the long run."



No "wallowing in victimhood" movement has ever lasted 1 minute past the ballot count ...........because its simply not a political strategy you can run a Country with.

People have to have accountability

but we are not actually talking about strength of character, here.

719M people will wake up in poverty today. probably half of them have little to no opportunity. i guess that means they will have great character?

who fucking cares about character when you have limited or no opportunity?

but sure. for rich white people, it is all about character.

[djAdvocate]

this stupid obsession with woke is just that.
it shows poor character.

being aware of institutional disadvantage is not "victimhood"

[tallguy]

Apr 12, 2023 3:10:45 GMT -5 Spellbound454 said:

..........and there we have the Woke agenda....which is what this is really about since the example is actually pretty poor.


"The strength of a person’s character and the value of their life are defined not by what problems have been placed in their path but instead by what they have done to turn those obstacles into opportunities. A victimhood mindset grants a momentary feeling of power and moral superiority but does not improve any lives in the long run."



No "wallowing in victimhood" movement has ever lasted 1 minute past the ballot count ...........because its simply not a political strategy you can run a Country with.

People have to have accountability

Let's simplify it a bit, shall we?  How about this:



"Yes, we are aware that people have not always been treated equally, either by society or under the law.   We have a responsibility to change that rather than maintain it."  You know, if we want to maintain the illusion that we are in fact a decent, moral, and civilized people.    

[Spellbound454]

but we are not actually talking about strength of character, here.



719M people will wake up in poverty today. probably half of them have little to no opportunity. i guess that means they will have great character?



who fucking cares about character when you have limited or no opportunity?



but sure. for rich white people, it is all about character.

Then take steps at every level to make sure there is more equality of opportunity.

If you keep telling people they are victims..... they keep being victims.


I think as much for this 6 year old..... She has been told that her relatives have been bullied and murdered because they weren't liked.

Will she take that on internally and grow up thinking she isnt liked? Will she prevented from taking the opportunities she needs because she feels like she doesn't deserve it?

The Holocaust was such a heinous act that she could wind up being very hurt by it in a transgenerational transmission.

.....but then again, the Israelis have got it going on. They created, in 50 years, the most prosperous region of the Middle East....... Out of desert land..

[Tennesseer]

“To be ignorant of what occurred before you were born is to remain always a child. For what is the worth of human life, unless it is woven into the life of our ancestors by the records of history?”

– Cicero

[djAdvocate]

Apr 12, 2023 10:09:51 GMT -5 Spellbound454 said:

but we are not actually talking about strength of character, here.



719M people will wake up in poverty today. probably half of them have little to no opportunity. i guess that means they will have great character?



who fucking cares about character when you have limited or no opportunity?



but sure. for rich white people, it is all about character.

Then take steps at every level to make sure there is more equality of opportunity.

If you keep telling people they are victims..... they keep being victims..

i never said victims. you did.

and we don't have to tell the disadvantaged that they are disadvantaged. they know.

it is the advantaged that don't know they are advantaged that are the problem.

so, you are basically blaming the victim, and taking no responsibility.
which is par for the course.
makes sense.
golf was invented in Scotland.

[djAdvocate]

i would note that i have never heard a disadvantaged person use the word victim. that term is normally reserved for criminal activity. they see themselves as struggling against disadvantage, which is a fact. 

you seem to suggest that struggling harder is the solution. which is rich, from someone who has not had to struggle as much.

perhaps it is US that need to change. not them.

[Spellbound454]

I only ever suggested that she was told in an age appropriate manner.

.........also that the Holocaust topic is taught to High Schoolers.

 so, you are basically blaming the victim, and taking no responsibility.

I would want to make sure that the opportunities were there for disadvantaged people to take.
That's the core of Liberalism.

and It's not blame ..... its enablement.

[swamp]

Apr 12, 2023 10:09:51 GMT -5 Spellbound454 said:

but we are not actually talking about strength of character, here.



719M people will wake up in poverty today. probably half of them have little to no opportunity. i guess that means they will have great character?



who fucking cares about character when you have limited or no opportunity?



but sure. for rich white people, it is all about character.

Then take steps at every level to make sure there is more equality of opportunity.

If you keep telling people they are victims..... they keep being victims.


I think as much for this 6 year old..... She has been told that her relatives have been bullied and murdered because they weren't liked.

Will she take that on internally and grow up thinking she isnt liked? Will she prevented from taking the opportunities she needs because she feels like she doesn't deserve it?

The Holocaust was such a heinous act that she could wind up being very hurt by it in a transgenerational transmission.

.....but then again, the Israelis have got it going on. They created, in 50 years, the most prosperous region of the Middle East....... Out of desert land..

Whut?

[djAdvocate]

Apr 12, 2023 10:38:13 GMT -5 Spellbound454 said:

I only ever suggested that she was told in an age appropriate manner.

.........also that the Holocaust topic is taught to High Schoolers.

i think if you will carefully review your input on this thread, you will discover that you have strayed well beyond discussing age appropriate education into "wokeism" and "victimhood".  as an educator, i should not need to tell you that these have little or nothing to do with the subject, and are dogwhistles for right wing extremists.

[swamp]

Apr 12, 2023 10:38:13 GMT -5 Spellbound454 said:

I only ever suggested that she was told in an age appropriate manner.

.........also that the Holocaust topic is taught to High Schoolers.

So I can’t talk to my kids about the Holocaust until they are 13?  

[djAdvocate]

Apr 12, 2023 10:42:43 GMT -5 swamp said:

Apr 12, 2023 10:09:51 GMT -5 Spellbound454 said:

.....but then again, the Israelis have got it going on. They created, in 50 years, the most prosperous region of the Middle East....... Out of desert land..

Whut?

good catch. that is fucking hilarious.

[Spellbound454]

Apr 12, 2023 10:42:50 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

Apr 12, 2023 10:38:13 GMT -5 Spellbound454 said:

I only ever suggested that she was told in an age appropriate manner.

.........also that the Holocaust topic is taught to High Schoolers.

i think if you will carefully review your input on this thread, you will discover that you have strayed well beyond discussing age appropriate education into "wokeism" and "victimhood".  as an educator, i should not need to tell you that these have little or nothing to do with the subject, and are dogwhistles for right wing extremists.

My opening sentence in this thread was this

No I'm with the principal ...... It needs to be done but in an age appropriate way.

and I still think the same.

As for the rest of it I've just gone with the flow.... the bit about wokeism was in answer to someone else who mentioned it first.

You don't have to be a right winger to think there is a problem with Woke.... Ive looked at much analysis from the US..... none of it right wing.

[grumpyhermit]

Apr 12, 2023 10:09:51 GMT -5 Spellbound454 said:

but we are not actually talking about strength of character, here.



719M people will wake up in poverty today. probably half of them have little to no opportunity. i guess that means they will have great character?



who fucking cares about character when you have limited or no opportunity?



but sure. for rich white people, it is all about character.

Then take steps at every level to make sure there is more equality of opportunity.

If you keep telling people they are victims..... they keep being victims.


I think as much for this 6 year old..... She has been told that her relatives have been bullied and murdered because they weren't liked.

Will she take that on internally and grow up thinking she isnt liked? Will she prevented from taking the opportunities she needs because she feels like she doesn't deserve it?

The Holocaust was such a heinous act that she could wind up being very hurt by it in a transgenerational transmission.

.....but then again, the Israelis have got it going on. They created, in 50 years, the most prosperous region of the Middle East....... Out of desert land..

Which is the actual "woke" agenda you seem determined to malign with your ill informed stance.

Being "woke" isn't about playing a perpetual victim card. It's about being aware and informed about the systemic factors at play in our current society. And how those factors can lead to very different opportunities and outcomes for people of color. It's about seeing the world as it actually functions, vs how those in power say it functions.

You can't dismantle systems of inequality if you can't first acknowledge that they still exist. Disregarding those bringing the issues to light as being "woke" is just your ignorance showing. 

If a six year old child is old enough to experience racism or antisemitism they are sure as hell old enough to learn about it. 

[djAdvocate]

Apr 12, 2023 10:54:27 GMT -5 Spellbound454 said:

Apr 12, 2023 10:42:50 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

i think if you will carefully review your input on this thread, you will discover that you have strayed well beyond discussing age appropriate education into "wokeism" and "victimhood".  as an educator, i should not need to tell you that these have little or nothing to do with the subject, and are dogwhistles for right wing extremists.

My opening sentence in this thread was this

No I'm with the principal ...... It needs to be done but in an age appropriate way.

and I still think the same.

As for the rest of it I've just gone with the flow.... the bit about wokeism was in answer to someone else who mentioned it first.

You don't have to be a right winger to think there is a problem with Woke.... Ive looked at much analysis from the US..... none of it right wing.

you sure about that?
i'm not.
again, being woke is being aware.
how is it possible for an educator to be have a problem with that?

[chiver78]

Apr 12, 2023 11:02:02 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

Apr 12, 2023 10:54:27 GMT -5 Spellbound454 said:

My opening sentence in this thread was this

and I still think the same.

As for the rest of it I've just gone with the flow.... the bit about wokeism was in answer to someone else who mentioned it first.

You don't have to be a right winger to think there is a problem with Woke.... Ive looked at much analysis from the US..... none of it right wing.

you sure about that?
i'm not.
again, being woke is being aware.
how is it possible for an educator to be have a problem with that?

for real.... 

[tallguy]

Apr 12, 2023 11:04:54 GMT -5 chiver78 said:

Apr 12, 2023 11:02:02 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

you sure about that?
i'm not.
again, being woke is being aware.
how is it possible for an educator to be have a problem with that?

for real.... 

How about this for an analogy:

"Wokeness" is to "wanting equality" as "Obamacare" is to "the ACA."

Vastly different (and evil) in the conservative mind.  Exactly the same for everyone else.  

[Spellbound454]

Apr 12, 2023 11:02:02 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

Apr 12, 2023 10:54:27 GMT -5 Spellbound454 said:

My opening sentence in this thread was this

and I still think the same.

As for the rest of it I've just gone with the flow.... the bit about wokeism was in answer to someone else who mentioned it first.

You don't have to be a right winger to think there is a problem with Woke.... Ive looked at much analysis from the US..... none of it right wing.

you sure about that?
i'm not.
again, being woke is being aware.
how is it possible for an educator to be have a problem with that?

www.nytimes.com/2022/06/01/opinion/woke-culture-backlash-movement.html
www.nytimes.com/2021/05/13/opinion/this-is-how-wokeness-ends.html..... New York Times isn't right wing.


I do realise, of course, that is is being weaponised by Republicans to gain political advantage....

but that's not where I'm coming from ... much of Europe doesn't like this either, and not a Republican or Right Winger in sight.

or threat to the Social Democratic establishment.

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

Did I seriously just read that teaching children about how Jewish people were exterminated on a state level because they were Jewish is "too woke"?  That a child knowing about her history and the trauma that continues to linger from it and how we can never forget the atrocities that were committed somehow will cause her to develop a victim mentality?

I swear this is the exact same argument that happened in Iowa when a representative from our state said that reading Anne Frank's diary needed to be "objective" and present the other side lest children get a misunderstanding and feel bad.

You should feel bad! On what planet is it "woke" to teach children about the holocaust?!

Please tell me I had a stroke.

[chiver78]

Apr 12, 2023 11:13:24 GMT -5 tallguy said:

Apr 12, 2023 11:04:54 GMT -5 chiver78 said:

for real.... 

How about this for an analogy:

"Wokeness" is to "wanting equality" as "Obamacare" is to "the ACA."

Vastly different (and evil) in the conservative mind.  Exactly the same for everyone else.  

that's actually a pretty solid analogy. well done, sir 

[tallguy]

Apr 12, 2023 11:21:11 GMT -5 Spellbound454 said:

Apr 12, 2023 11:02:02 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

you sure about that?
i'm not.
again, being woke is being aware.
how is it possible for an educator to be have a problem with that?

www.nytimes.com/2022/06/01/opinion/woke-culture-backlash-movement.html
www.nytimes.com/2021/05/13/opinion/this-is-how-wokeness-ends.html..... New York Times isn't right wing.


I do realise, of course, that is is being weaponised by Republicans to gain political advantage....

but that's not where I'm coming from ... much of Europe doesn't like this either, and not a Republican or Right Winger in sight.

or threat to the Social Democratic establishment.

Those are opinion pieces.  Look up the author, not the outlet.

[Spellbound454]

I know they are opinion pieces... and when looking for commentary on the US, I would firstly go to your quality news outlets.
Whats wrong with that?