I taught my 6-year-old about the Holocaust and got sent to..

[Spellbound454]

 Again, it isn’t that teachers shouldn’t be looking for things. It is that the principal, after discussing this with the parent, still insisted that the discussion was inappropriate. Therein is the issue. Spellbound continues to miss the point

My carefully thought out analysis is on the the top of the previous page..... its not that I have missed "the point"........ I don't think "the point" is the issue here.

When you look at the detail.... and read some of her other stuff  (as I have) she has an agenda.

.......and its a 10 year historic, highly decorative reminiscence ..... with no right of reply, or indication of stance from the other side.




Hard to draw accurate conclusions when you only have half, an historic "Story"

[pulmonarymd]

No, you have missed the point. Her “agenda” has nothing to do with it.

[billisonboard]

I am not sure exactly what is the "point" here on this thread. That a principal was wrong to tell a parent they were teaching age inappropriate material? Or is it that a principal was wrong to tell a parent theit teaching about the Holocaust was age inappropriate material for a six year old? Perhaps the issue is that schools are negligent not teaching all six year olds about the Holocaust? Or is it about the recall accuracy/honesty of the author of the piece quoted in the OP?

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

I think it was inappropriate of the principal to tell the mother that she shouldn't have taught her daughter about the holocaust.   I get the picture being a red flag and I can get having a meeting about it but once I explain why she drew the picture then that should be the end of it.

People may want to think the mother is exaggerating but I live in one of the states that wants to ban teaching of many subjects because our representatives feel and certain parents feel that it is "not appropriate" for whatever reason.  There was actually a proposal on the table for a while that cameras be put in classrooms so parents could report in real time if their kids were learning things they did not deem appropriate.  

So I believe the mom that she got a lecture from the principal.  That is where I would have gotten nasty with her.  If parent B gets to decide that entire sections of the history textbook be ripped out lest their little darling "feel bad" about being white and it is their "God given right" to decide what their kid learns then FUCK YOU interjecting your opinion on me teaching my kid about the holocaust because I have just as much a right to teach my kid as I see fit as Captain Snowflake does.

I can no longer trust that the Iowa public school system is going to teach my kids these things so now it's up to me.  I would have a talk with my kid about the picture and why it triggered a meeting and the need to think about the things we do in public.  But I would also be telling her she is not in trouble.   You keep learning and I will keep educating.   You have a right to knowledge and I will always have your back.  The principal can kiss my ass in that regard.

[pulmonarymd]

So, in the educators opinion, teaching a 6 yo about the holocaust is wrong. Yet, we have to teach them lockdown drills, active shooters, and the possibility that they could be shot to death. And , that’s ok. Did I get that right?

[billisonboard]

Apr 10, 2023 9:00:12 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

So, in the educators opinion, teaching a 6 yo about the holocaust is wrong. Yet, we have to teach them lockdown drills, active shooters, and the possibility that they could be shot to death. And , that’s ok. Did I get that right?

I would say necessary instead of okay, but generally I say you get it right. Messed up world we live in, isn't it.

[pulmonarymd]

Apr 10, 2023 9:09:42 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Apr 10, 2023 9:00:12 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

So, in the educators opinion, teaching a 6 yo about the holocaust is wrong. Yet, we have to teach them lockdown drills, active shooters, and the possibility that they could be shot to death. And , that’s ok. Did I get that right?

I would say necessary instead of okay, but generally I say you get it right. Messed up world we live in, isn't it.

I thing that is the point. If we have to and can teach about this in an age appropriate manner, why is it inappropriate to teach the holocaust. The active shooter drills are far more real for them unfortunately

[djAdvocate]

for the record, i don't think ANYONE on this board is stupid.
it takes intelligence to have discussions like this.
a stupid person could not engage like we do.

[djAdvocate]

Apr 10, 2023 9:00:12 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

So, in the educators opinion, teaching a 6 yo about the holocaust is wrong. Yet, we have to teach them lockdown drills, active shooters, and the possibility that they could be shot to death. And , that’s ok. Did I get that right?

and it's fine for a 17 year old boy to see rows of "terrorists" being mowed down in cold blood, but GOD FORBID we show that same child a NIPPLE on screen, or in public.

that is my personal fave.  we are more backwards than Turkiye on that one.

[Tennesseer]

Apr 10, 2023 10:19:15 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

Apr 10, 2023 9:00:12 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

So, in the educators opinion, teaching a 6 yo about the holocaust is wrong. Yet, we have to teach them lockdown drills, active shooters, and the possibility that they could be shot to death. And , that’s ok. Did I get that right?

and it's fine for a 17 year old boy to see rows of "terrorists" being mowed down in cold blood, but GOD FORBID we show that same child a NIPPLE on screen, or in public.

that is my personal fave.  we are more backwards than Turkiye on that one.

And the main religion in Turkiye is Islam.

[djAdvocate]

Apr 10, 2023 10:28:06 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

Apr 10, 2023 10:19:15 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

and it's fine for a 17 year old boy to see rows of "terrorists" being mowed down in cold blood, but GOD FORBID we show that same child a NIPPLE on screen, or in public.

that is my personal fave.  we are more backwards than Turkiye on that one.

And the main religion in Turkiye is Islam.

overwhelmingly.

they are far more attentive to their kids than we are, imo.

[weltschmerz]

Apr 10, 2023 9:09:42 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Apr 10, 2023 9:00:12 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

So, in the educators opinion, teaching a 6 yo about the holocaust is wrong. Yet, we have to teach them lockdown drills, active shooters, and the possibility that they could be shot to death. And , that’s ok. Did I get that right?

I would say necessary instead of okay, but generally I say you get it right. Messed up world we live in, isn't it.

Messed up country you live in. 

*Fixed.*

[djAdvocate]

Apr 10, 2023 10:43:38 GMT -5 weltschmerz said:

Apr 10, 2023 9:09:42 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

I would say necessary instead of okay, but generally I say you get it right. Messed up world we live in, isn't it.

Messed up country you live in. 

*Fixed.*

it is the one point of agreement i have with the right wingers.

of course, we differ as to WHY it is the case.

[NastyWoman]

Apr 10, 2023 11:04:37 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

Apr 10, 2023 10:43:38 GMT -5 weltschmerz said:

Messed up country you live in. 

*Fixed.*

it is the one point of agreement i have with the right wingers.

of course, we differ as to WHY it is the case.

And that word "why" brings us straight back to the original discussion. 
While I don't remember whether this happened during kindergarten or first grade of DS2 parent-teacher conference I will never forget that teacher telling me your DS reminded me to always ask children why they did something. She then proceeded to put one of his worksheets in front of me. On it they had to circle things that were not hot and DS had circled the iron. According to her the first time she could remember a child doing that so she told him an iron was hot. DS got upset at her being wrong and pointed out it was not plugged in and so it was NOT hot. 

And this brings me back to the drawing and I wondered why no one talked at all to the child about this. And why the principal, after hearing the mother's "why" still felt the need to dig in instead of explaining why she had initially been worried about the drawing and then (preferably graciously) accepted the parent's explanation.

Watching out for a child's well being is wonderful and I believe the vast majority of teachers do a very good job at it. However, thinking that because you are a teacher you ALWAYS know best and don't have to look at the whole story - that's not so good.

[Tennesseer]

Apr 10, 2023 15:36:33 GMT -5 NastyWoman said:

Apr 10, 2023 11:04:37 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

it is the one point of agreement i have with the right wingers.

of course, we differ as to WHY it is the case.

And that word "why" brings us straight back to the original discussion. 
While I don't remember whether this happened during kindergarten or first grade of DS2 parent-teacher conference I will never forget that teacher telling me your DS reminded me to always ask children why they did something. She then proceeded to put one of his worksheets in front of me. On it they had to circle things that were not hot and DS had circled the iron. According to her the first time she could remember a child doing that so she told him an iron was hot. DS got upset at her being wrong and pointed out it was not plugged in and so it was NOT hot. 

And this brings me back to the drawing and I wondered why no one talked at all to the child about this. And why the principal, after hearing the mother's "why" still felt the need to dig in instead of explaining why she had initially been worried about the drawing and then (preferably graciously) accepted the parent's explanation.

Watching out for a child's well being is wonderful and I believe the vast majority of teachers do a very good job at it. However, thinking that because you are a teacher you ALWAYS know best and don't have to look at the whole story - that's not so good.

The better question on the test would have been 'Things which could be hot.'

[djAdvocate]

Apr 10, 2023 15:36:33 GMT -5 NastyWoman said:

Apr 10, 2023 11:04:37 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

it is the one point of agreement i have with the right wingers.

of course, we differ as to WHY it is the case.

And that word "why" brings us straight back to the original discussion. 
While I don't remember whether this happened during kindergarten or first grade of DS2 parent-teacher conference I will never forget that teacher telling me your DS reminded me to always ask children why they did something. She then proceeded to put one of his worksheets in front of me. On it they had to circle things that were not hot and DS had circled the iron. According to her the first time she could remember a child doing that so she told him an iron was hot. DS got upset at her being wrong and pointed out it was not plugged in and so it was NOT hot. 

And this brings me back to the drawing and I wondered why no one talked at all to the child about this. And why the principal, after hearing the mother's "why" still felt the need to dig in instead of explaining why she had initially been worried about the drawing and then (preferably graciously) accepted the parent's explanation.

Watching out for a child's well being is wonderful and I believe the vast majority of teachers do a very good job at it. However, thinking that because you are a teacher you ALWAYS know best and don't have to look at the whole story - that's not so good.

right!  i mean it is one thing if the child can't explain it, or offers something disturbing to explain it.  it is one thing if a child kills neighborhood pets and THEN draws something like that.  it is quite another when a child is showing honor and respect for their family by making a drawing like that.

[NastyWoman]

Apr 10, 2023 15:41:25 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

Apr 10, 2023 15:36:33 GMT -5 NastyWoman said:

And that word "why" brings us straight back to the original discussion. 
While I don't remember whether this happened during kindergarten or first grade of DS2 parent-teacher conference I will never forget that teacher telling me your DS reminded me to always ask children why they did something. She then proceeded to put one of his worksheets in front of me. On it they had to circle things that were not hot and DS had circled the iron. According to her the first time she could remember a child doing that so she told him an iron was hot. DS got upset at her being wrong and pointed out it was not plugged in and so it was NOT hot. 

And this brings me back to the drawing and I wondered why no one talked at all to the child about this. And why the principal, after hearing the mother's "why" still felt the need to dig in instead of explaining why she had initially been worried about the drawing and then (preferably graciously) accepted the parent's explanation.

Watching out for a child's well being is wonderful and I believe the vast majority of teachers do a very good job at it. However, thinking that because you are a teacher you ALWAYS know best and don't have to look at the whole story - that's not so good.

The better question on the test would have been 'Things which could be hot.'

LOL! "Could be" might have been beyond the ability of a kid that age. Besides, if placed in the right environment very few things would not fall under that definition. An exception would be things that simply don't exist when hot (ice comes to mind). Note DS turned 41yo a few weeks ago so it is not lime I can test this assertion.

And off tbe rails the discussion went again

[billisonboard]

Apr 10, 2023 9:28:23 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

Apr 10, 2023 9:09:42 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

I would say necessary instead of okay, but generally I say you get it right. Messed up world we live in, isn't it.

I thing that is the point. If we have to and can teach about this in an age appropriate manner, why is it inappropriate to teach the holocaust. The active shooter drills are far more real for them unfortunately

Some good information on why active shooter drills are age appropriate for 6 year olds and the Holocaust isn't: Piaget’s Preoperational Stage (Ages 2-7): Definition, & Examples

[hurley1980]

Apr 10, 2023 9:00:12 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

So, in the educators opinion, teaching a 6 yo about the holocaust is wrong. Yet, we have to teach them lockdown drills, active shooters, and the possibility that they could be shot to death. And , that’s ok. Did I get that right?

  And don't get me started on some of the scary shit I was taught at 6 years old in the 80s.  I was terrified of Russia bombing us (drills under our desks), stranger danger (anyone can be kidnapped at ay time), and razor blades in my Halloween candy (urban legend).  There has always been scary stuff out there for kids of every generation, but we don't just pretend it doesn't exist because that would be really irresponsible!  Knowing about the scary stuff is what protects us from it. 

[MarionTh230]

Apr 10, 2023 18:06:43 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Apr 10, 2023 9:28:23 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

I thing that is the point. If we have to and can teach about this in an age appropriate manner, why is it inappropriate to teach the holocaust. The active shooter drills are far more real for them unfortunately

Some good information on why active shooter drills are age appropriate for 6 year olds and the Holocaust isn't: Piaget’s Preoperational Stage (Ages 2-7): Definition, & Examples

This is why I have been loathe to comment on this thread. No, active shooter drills are not appropriate for 6 year olds. Period. End of subject.

If you would like to attempt to make the argument that they are necessary given our current societal, political,, and legal predicament in the US that is different. 

As a mother to a 6 year old I will never agree that active shooter drills and intruder drills (because we have both and they are two different set of drills) are appropriate for 6 year olds. If you would like to counter that point because you spend a few hours a day a few days a week with 6 year olds, I will give your point all the consideration that I think it deserves. And it won't be much considering I live with a 6 year old. The hours I spend away from her are quite few. I am keenly aware of how inappropriate active shooter drills are for her age.

I didn't find your linked source relatable. Again, based on my many hours spent with a 6 year old. When I think about the limited number of hours I have spent with other 6 year olds, I still didn't find it relatable. I do wonder if the age groups were narrower if it would have been more relatable? 2 thru 7 is a large developmental range and they aren't typically grouped together in a large age span like that.

[billisonboard]

Apr 10, 2023 19:12:03 GMT -5 MarionTh230 said:

Apr 10, 2023 18:06:43 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Some good information on why active shooter drills are age appropriate for 6 year olds and the Holocaust isn't: Piaget’s Preoperational Stage (Ages 2-7): Definition, & Examples

This is why I have been loathe to comment on this thread. No, active shooter drills are not appropriate for 6 year olds. Period. End of subject.

If you would like to attempt to make the argument that they are necessary given our current societal, political,, and legal predicament in the US that is different. 

As a mother to a 6 year old I will never agree that active shooter drills and intruder drills (because we have both and they are two different set of drills) are appropriate for 6 year olds. If you would like to counter that point because you spend a few hours a day a few days a week with 6 year olds, I will give your point all the consideration that I think it deserves. And it won't be much considering I live with a 6 year old. The hours I spend away from her are quite few. I am keenly aware of how inappropriate active shooter drills are for her age.

I didn't find your linked source relatable. Again, based on my many hours spent with a 6 year old. When I think about the limited number of hours I have spent with other 6 year olds, I still didn't find it relatable. I do wonder if the age groups were narrower if it would have been more relatable? 2 thru 7 is a large developmental range and they aren't typically grouped together in a large age span like that.

Glad you added your voice to the conversation. Thanks for sharing your perspective.

[djAdvocate]

ok.  at least you are consistent.  bonus points for that.

[Spellbound454]

 I didn't find your linked source relatable. Again, based on my many hours spent with a 6 year old. When I think about the limited number of hours I have spent with other 6 year olds, I still didn't find it relatable. I do wonder if the age groups were narrower if it would have been more relatable? 2 thru 7 is a large developmental range and they aren't typically grouped together in a large age span like that.

Piaget isn't the only Child Psychologist but a lot of what he says, does ring true.

Preoperational stage (2-7)

Begin to think symbolically and learn to use words and pictures to represent objects
-  Having pictorial memories and using pictures to learn might explain why this 6 year old was best able to process her thoughts by drawing a picture.

Tend to be egocentric and struggle to see things from the perspective of others
- Not really being aware of other peoples points of view and thinking everyone sees things the way they do.

Getting better with language and thinking, but still tend to think in very concrete terms
Easy really ... We read simple stories to our children that they can understand


I think this stage gets more pronounced over time ......... but there is a real shift in the next stage. ie concrete operational in the use of logic, which the younger ones don't understand.

Think a lot of teaching is centred around Piagets stages, the principal would have known .... and the 6 year olds Mother would have known... ( psychiatry and psychology are different but with overlap).

Never seen a shooter drill... but some areas of the World have drills for Earthquakes, Tsunamis, Rockets ..... all theory goes out of the window when you have got to keep the kids alive.

[Spellbound454]

I was terrified of Russia bombing us (drills under our desks), stranger danger (anyone can be kidnapped at ay time)

Yes us too.... stupid really since hiding under the desk is not going to stop a nuclear bomb.

I remember reading some German kids stories......... and if you sucked your thumb the big red legged scissor man would come an chop your thumbs off.
Scaring kids seams to be a bit of an age old tradition.

[Spellbound454]

Anyway back to the picture


I think its shocking
The pile of bodies with their black tears and badges? ... black crayon everywhere?.......  Its very dark for a 6 year old.

[MarionTh230]

Apr 11, 2023 3:59:02 GMT -5 Spellbound454 said:

 I didn't find your linked source relatable. Again, based on my many hours spent with a 6 year old. When I think about the limited number of hours I have spent with other 6 year olds, I still didn't find it relatable. I do wonder if the age groups were narrower if it would have been more relatable? 2 thru 7 is a large developmental range and they aren't typically grouped together in a large age span like that.

Piaget isn't the only Child Psychologist but a lot of what he says, does ring true.

Preoperational stage (2-7)

Begin to think symbolically and learn to use words and pictures to represent objects
-  Having pictorial memories and using pictures to learn might explain why this 6 year old was best able to process her thoughts by drawing a picture.

Tend to be egocentric and struggle to see things from the perspective of others
- Not really being aware of other peoples points of view and thinking everyone sees things the way they do.

Getting better with language and thinking, but still tend to think in very concrete terms
Easy really ... We read simple stories to our children that they can understand


I think this stage gets more pronounced over time ......... but there is a real shift in the next stage. ie concrete operational in the use of logic, which the younger ones don't understand.

Think a lot of teaching is centred around Piagets stages, the principal would have known .... and the 6 year olds Mother would have known... ( psychiatry and psychology are different but with overlap).

Never seen a shooter drill... but some areas of the World have drills for Earthquakes, Tsunamis, Rockets ..... all theory goes out of the window when you have got to keep the kids alive.

Your examples actually make more sense than what was in the article.  But, even with those it's very different for a 7 year old than a 2 year old.  The stories for example.  There is a huge push for more complex story telling at age 6 because it is linked to reading comprehension.  The stories we use for 6 year olds are very different from the stories we use for 4 year olds.  There is also a push for character development at the older ages.  Introductory still, but the idea that characters can have multiple motivations and reasons for doing the things they do in a story.  Grouping all these cognitive development type things in that large of an age group is causing me to lose the point majorly.

Now, if the general idea is that some psychologically relevant stage of development starts around age 2 and is complete around age 7, demonstrated by a significant shift that is noticeable by age 7, I could get on board with that.  That particular linked article though, with the examples used in it, that wasn't my takeaway at all.

[MarionTh230]

Apr 11, 2023 4:13:19 GMT -5 Spellbound454 said:

Anyway back to the picture


I think its shocking
The pile of bodies with their black tears and badges? ... black crayon everywhere?.......  Its very dark for a 6 year old.

I don't know.  It's a picture of the Holocaust.  I think I would be more concerned if the drawing was full of rainbows and butterflies.

The Holocaust itself was shocking.  And atrocious.  And cruel.  And savage.  And barbaric.  War crimes.  Crimes against humanity.  All of that is part of the Holocaust.

I didn't see in the article where the mother indicated the school should be teaching Holocaust history to 6 year olds.  It talked about the family's personal experience with the Holocaust.  An evil historic event that impacts their every day life.  The article specifically stated that the great grandfather of the child was a Holocaust survivor.  That's not the kind of thing you just pack away and never speak of.  It is something that impacts an entire family for many generations.  You don't ignore it because it's not pretty - especially on Remembrance Day.

Is the issue the drawing itself?  Or is the issue the fact that this child was taught about an historic event that is not pretty?  I just still don't see the drawing itself as an issue given the context. 

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

So should she have said Hilter is good? 

I don't think the picture is shocking given her family history.   I think it shows a pretty good grasp of the information for a 6 year old.   There are adults right now that don't grasp as much as this picture shows, that should terrify people.

We are losing Holocaust survivors at a rapid pace.  We don't have the luxury of sitting around waiting until kids are "old enough" to hear the stories.   I agree with the mother's position this is her family history she is telling the child about and it's critical it get passed down to the next generation before it is too late.

I think it's insane the prinicpal does not believe it is appropriate for a child to know about the holocaust but it is acceptable in our country for kids to know that every day it is possible they, their classmates, their teachers could all be shot full of lead because some whack job's God given right to a gun is more important than their lives.

Yeah because THAT doesn't cause mental distress.   But God forbid a child a learn her family history.  OH NO that's unacceptable the TRAUMA!

[Tennesseer]

Apr 11, 2023 4:13:19 GMT -5 Spellbound454 said:

Anyway back to the picture


I think its shocking
The pile of bodies with their black tears and badges? ... black crayon everywhere?.......  Its very dark for a 6 year old.

Thank you for your opinion. Others have other opinions.

Have we beaten this picture to death yet?

[tallguy]

Apr 11, 2023 10:13:35 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

Apr 11, 2023 4:13:19 GMT -5 Spellbound454 said:

Anyway back to the picture


I think its shocking
The pile of bodies with their black tears and badges? ... black crayon everywhere?.......  Its very dark for a 6 year old.

Thank you for your opinion. Others have other opinions.

Have we beaten this picture to death yet?

No.  DeD Piture Bad