discussion on "ghetto" - definition, connotation, usage

[raeoflyte]

Darn it, lost my post.

My daily interactions with people aren't focused on race. I don't think I treat people differently based on race.

Seeing color made me realize I've never been afraid for my life when interacting with the police, even when I was doing something illegal. It made me realize that when I talk to my kids about drugs its about why people do them and what can happen if you do, not about legal consequences if caught.

Seeing color made me take a hard look at my life and realize that not only is my neighborhood and workplace mostly white, my tv shows, movies and author's were too. Then to branch out and change what I can.

The color blind ideal has been around for several decades, and most white people don't consider themselves racists, but systemic racism hasnt gotten better, I'd argue its worse in that time period. Which is probably the best argument why the color blind ideal doesn't work.

[raeoflyte]

And I'm not sure why, but I feel like I have to add that my husband is hispanic, 1st generation immigrant from an inter-racial marriage. Grandma didn't speak English, so they mostly spoke Spanish at home, and I made the most of my highschool Spanish to make do when we were first together.

Our lives are still mostly white. Dh "passes" for white, and while he has more personal experience of a POC view than I do, we're on a similar path of trying to be more aware and teach our kids better. Our kids arent genetically related to dh, and we don't want to pass on they idea that they are immune to racism because grampa is brown and has an accent.

[andi9899]

Oct 11, 2021 11:46:02 GMT -5 tallguy said:

Oct 11, 2021 10:55:31 GMT -5 andi9899 said:

I completely agree with Rae. You can't change something if you don't recognize the problem.

I think it may be helpful to reread my response(s).  What could possibly suggest that I don't recognize the problem?  We have a disagreement on a definition of a term.  "Not seeing color" (at least as I define it here) does not require any level of ignorance about racism in general and should be considered anti-racist rather than "ignorant racist."  My use and understanding of the term goes back fifty years, as I noted earlier.  I think I'm on pretty solid ground here.    

Thinking that you don't "see" color is in fact ignorant. How can you truly be part of the solution if you don't take the time to self reflect and figure out what you can do to promote change? Simply thinking that you aren't part of the problem doesn't make it so. All of us have change that we can be making within ourselves to improve the lives of others. In order to find what we need to be doing, we need to learn about others and reflect on ourselves. Just saying "I don't do that" is just refusing to believe that you can/should take a deeper look at yourself.

[tallguy]

Oct 11, 2021 14:36:43 GMT -5 andi9899 said:

Oct 11, 2021 11:46:02 GMT -5 tallguy said:

I think it may be helpful to reread my response(s).  What could possibly suggest that I don't recognize the problem?  We have a disagreement on a definition of a term.  "Not seeing color" (at least as I define it here) does not require any level of ignorance about racism in general and should be considered anti-racist rather than "ignorant racist."  My use and understanding of the term goes back fifty years, as I noted earlier.  I think I'm on pretty solid ground here.    

Thinking that you don't "see" color is in fact ignorant. How can you truly be part of the solution if you don't take the time to self reflect and figure out what you can do to promote change? Simply thinking that you aren't part of the problem doesn't make it so. All of us have change that we can be making within ourselves to improve the lives of others. In order to find what we need to be doing, we need to learn about others and reflect on ourselves. Just saying "I don't do that" is just refusing to believe that you can/should take a deeper look at yourself.

Read, don't project.  You are clearly not understanding my meaning or my point, or you would not think this is an appropriate response.  Perhaps it is a semantic difference, where you are so stuck on your own definition that you ignore mine.  I do not equate "not seeing color" to being color-blind, nor do I equate my beliefs and behavior toward an individual or group to my beliefs and behaviors toward societal issues.

I stated earlier that I "notice" color but I do not "note" it.  The former of course implies that I "see" it in the sense of being aware of any different treatment of others.  The latter means that I look beyond color in dealing with people, whether individual or group.  Looking beyond it means that I do not "see" it in that sense, and that is what I believe the phrase refers to.  Nothing in that requires me to be ignorant of racism (or any other assorted bigotry) and how others are harmed by it.  Nothing in that prevents me from arguing or fighting against those bigotries when encountered.  Again, "I don't see color" is an individual statement, regarding how I as an individual treat someone else as an individual.  It does not at all imply that I am unaware of racism in a larger sense nor that I do not fight against it.  I hope that is clear now.  Otherwise I fear the ignorance is yours.

[andi9899]

Oct 11, 2021 15:59:58 GMT -5 tallguy said:

Oct 11, 2021 14:36:43 GMT -5 andi9899 said:

Thinking that you don't "see" color is in fact ignorant. How can you truly be part of the solution if you don't take the time to self reflect and figure out what you can do to promote change? Simply thinking that you aren't part of the problem doesn't make it so. All of us have change that we can be making within ourselves to improve the lives of others. In order to find what we need to be doing, we need to learn about others and reflect on ourselves. Just saying "I don't do that" is just refusing to believe that you can/should take a deeper look at yourself.

Read, don't project.  You are clearly not understanding my meaning or my point, or you would not think this is an appropriate response.  Perhaps it is a semantic difference, where you are so stuck on your own definition that you ignore mine.  I do not equate "not seeing color" to being color-blind, nor do I equate my beliefs and behavior toward an individual or group to my beliefs and behaviors toward societal issues.

I stated earlier that I "notice" color but I do not "note" it.  The former of course implies that I "see" it in the sense of being aware of any different treatment of others.  The latter means that I look beyond color in dealing with people, whether individual or group.  Looking beyond it means that I do not "see" it in that sense, and that is what I believe the phrase refers to.  Nothing in that requires me to be ignorant of racism (or any other assorted bigotry) and how others are harmed by it.  Nothing in that prevents me from arguing or fighting against those bigotries when encountered.  Again, "I don't see color" is an individual statement, regarding how I as an individual treat someone else as an individual.  It does not at all imply that I am unaware of racism in a larger sense nor that I do not fight against it.  I hope that is clear now.  Otherwise I fear the ignorance is yours.

What exactly do you do to fight it? I'm intrigued. Since you're so "colorblind" that is.

[raeoflyte]

Another thought... I didn't see color, so I never noticed that I didn't have a single black teacher. I can't think of any hispanic teachers either, and only 1 Asian teacher.

If I don't see color, do I notice when I don't have black job applicants, am I checking if people are getting screened out by ethnic names, or am I advertising in ways that cater to white people. Or do I just not even give it a thought because I didnt try or intend to discriminate.

I can be "not a racist" all day and still have an adverse affect on the lives of POC. We need to see color and we need to see race at least until we are much, much closer to erasing the default of white privilege.

[nidena]

tallguy, you may be receiving pushback on the statement because many who do use the phrase mean it differently than you do.  Your viewpoint, on this specific phrase, appears to be an exception.

Case in point, I have a coworker who says "I don't see color" but, in the same damn statement, talks about shopping at the "ghetto Kroger".  No joke.  This particular grocery store is in an area that is predominantly brown and Black.

[TheOtherMe]

Oct 11, 2021 16:27:14 GMT -5 raeoflyte said:

Another thought... I didn't see color, so I never noticed that I didn't have a single black teacher. I can't think of any hispanic teachers either, and only 1 Asian teacher.

If I don't see color, do I notice when I don't have black job applicants, am I checking if people are getting screened out by ethnic names, or am I advertising in ways that cater to white people. Or do I just not even give it a thought because I didnt try or intend to discriminate.

I can be "not a racist" all day and still have an adverse affect on the lives of POC. We need to see color and we need to see race at least until we are much, much closer to erasing the default of white privilege.

My schooling was much as yours except we had a token Black gym teacher in grade school and a token Black math teacher in junior high.  The gym teacher was also the only male in our school, so he got stuck doing stuff he wouldn't have had to do had their been even one more male teacher.  

By high school, I had my first Black kids in my classes.  This didn't happen until 10th grade.  I don't remember having any Black teachers in high school.

I recall no Black professors in college.

I do hope that is all changing.  Since I don't have kids, I can't confirm it.

By the time I started working and transferred from Des Moines (lily white) to Denver, I was finally exposed to people of all ethnicities and colors.  I learned so much during those years.

It's the wondering what is going to happen to me if a cop comes to my car that drilled the message loud and clear to me.  I have only been pulled over once, but I was not concerned about how I would be treated.  The things Black people get pulled over for are ridiculous.

I have white privilege whether I want to or not.

NomoreDramaQ1015   Around my neck of the woods Catholics have way more privilege than I do.

[raeoflyte]

Oct 11, 2021 17:48:00 GMT -5 TheOtherMe said:

Oct 11, 2021 16:27:14 GMT -5 raeoflyte said:

Another thought... I didn't see color, so I never noticed that I didn't have a single black teacher. I can't think of any hispanic teachers either, and only 1 Asian teacher.

If I don't see color, do I notice when I don't have black job applicants, am I checking if people are getting screened out by ethnic names, or am I advertising in ways that cater to white people. Or do I just not even give it a thought because I didnt try or intend to discriminate.

I can be "not a racist" all day and still have an adverse affect on the lives of POC. We need to see color and we need to see race at least until we are much, much closer to erasing the default of white privilege.

My schooling was much as yours except we had a token Black gym teacher in grade school and a token Black math teacher in junior high.  The gym teacher was also the only male in our school, so he got stuck doing stuff he wouldn't have had to do had their been even one more male teacher.  

By high school, I had my first Black kids in my classes.  This didn't happen until 10th grade.  I don't remember having any Black teachers in high school.

I recall no Black professors in college.

I do hope that is all changing.  Since I don't have kids, I can't confirm it.

By the time I started working and transferred from Des Moines (lily white) to Denver, I was finally exposed to people of all ethnicities and colors.  I learned so much during those years.

It's the wondering what is going to happen to me if a cop comes to my car that drilled the message loud and clear to me.  I have only been pulled over once, but I was not concerned about how I would be treated.  The things Black people get pulled over for are ridiculous.

I have white privilege whether I want to or not.

NomoreDramaQ1015   Around my neck of the woods Catholics have way more privilege than I do.

We were in a hispanic neighborhood in Denver, but back in the burbs its very white. Our elementary school is an exception here with quite a bit of ethnic and financial diversity. Thinking on it though, there are still only 2 black paraprofessionals at the school. More hispanic teachers, but still not a representation of the students.

[tallguy]

Oct 11, 2021 17:18:58 GMT -5 nidena said:

tallguy , you may be receiving pushback on the statement because many who do use the phrase mean it differently than you do.  Your viewpoint, on this specific phrase, appears to be an exception.

Case in point, I have a coworker who says "I don't see color" but, in the same damn statement, talks about shopping at the "ghetto Kroger".  No joke.  This particular grocery store is in an area that is predominantly brown and Black.

Exactly.  I in fact stated that we were most likely working from different definitions of the term, told why I think the given definition was wrong, and made a point twice of defining it in the way that I believe it should mean.  There may be more people who use it a different way, but that fact in itself does not mean that their usage is correct and mine is not.  I have a long history of standing alone against a group of people.  As one good example, once in high school there was an argument about the spelling of a Latin term for the yearbook.  I was on one side, and a friend (along with a couple others) were arguing against me.  At one point the entire yearbook staff had joined in, telling me to admit I was wrong.  I refused.  They even asked a teacher, who backed their side.  I still refused.  They finally asked the school newspaper teacher/adviser, who confirmed that I was right.  Friend came back and said, "I hate you, xxxxxx!"  I laughed and said, "I know." 

My point with that story is that a lot of people will pile onto whatever side has the most voices shouting, whether they in fact know or even think they are right or not.  They go along with the crowd, because they need that support for their own insecurities.  I don't.  I am perfectly willing to stand alone against the crowd if I know I'm right, and have been since I was a kid.  If I don't know something, I'll say so, but I will also make the effort to learn for next time.  That willingness to stand alone also manifests itself in an inabililty to stand aside if somebody is making nasty or ugly comments, or mistreating someone else.  A lot of mistreatment is perpetuated because the crowd is not willing to stand up and confront those abusers.  I will.  

I should note that it doesn't happen often, both because I do not really socialize with many people and don't like crowds to begin with, but also because I certainly don't have anyone in my circle who would do that.  Still, I do confront it if I see it.  And again, my usage and understanding of this particular term goes back fifty years to a far worse time than this.  I think I'll stick with it.   

[laterbloomer]

I never really understood what people were talking about when they said they didn't see colour. I remember on one occasion a coworker was talking about someone that we did business with and I couldn't figure out who they were talking about. It got to the point that she was describing the woman "black hair, brown eyes..." I finally clued in and said "you mean the black woman!" My coworker got all agitated because I wasn't supposed to notice that or something. I remember telling her " how can I not notice she's black? It's not like there is anything wrong with being black, it's just a physical description" I've never been one to equate race with ability and I was well into adulthood before I realised racism wasn't dead. Growing up I thought the Civil Rights movement worked and I had absolutely no exposure to indigenous issues. Then I got into working at non profits and social service sector. It's been a constant education on social justice issues since.

[Knee Deep in Water Chloe]

This is a recommendation from Desiree Adaway

I won’t be able to read it until thanksgiving at the earliest.

[gambler]

Was posting on what you doing board about stuff and thought about what I posted getto is a way of life not a place or color, live in a closed area kid had every opportunity last I saw him pants under ass, tats all over, gun in pants/underwear. Live in up scale area but this describes neighborhood kid well he was very white

[andi9899]

Oct 13, 2021 17:12:12 GMT -5 gambler said:

Was posting on what you doing board about stuff and thought about what I posted getto is a way of life not a place or color, live in a closed area kid had every opportunity last I saw him pants under ass, tats all over, gun in pants/underwear. Live in up scale area but this describes neighborhood kid well he was very white

Why are tattoos ghetto and not an expression of art?

[apple 2]

IMO Saying you are "colour blind" diminishes others' experiences and keeps one in denial about systemic racism.

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

I've also seen it put as it's another extension of my privilege.

I have the luxury of ignoring skin color because my skin color isn't a barrier. Mine opens all the doors.

We only become worried about it when someone appears to be poised to take away the perks. That's the entire platform of the Republican party right now.

[andi9899]

Oct 13, 2021 17:57:31 GMT -5 apple 2 said:

IMO Saying you are "colour blind" diminishes others' experiences and keeps one in denial about systemic racism.

Exactly!

[Knee Deep in Water Chloe]

Did this get posted in here already?
Please disregard if it it did.

www.npr.org/sections/codeswitch/2014/04/27/306829915/segregated-from-its-history-how-ghetto-lost-its-meaning?fbclid=IwAR1V5bzDgkoLDM07taqA16Tb9Ro8n6qIYllT9Q17xoZPlShFKDdH2hUVClA

[chiver78]

from a linguistics perspective, that's fascinating. all of the words in the various languages aren't all that similar, yet mean things that fall in line together quite well. 

thanks for the share! 

[andi9899]

I read the whole thing and I found it quite interesting.

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

I think this belongs here considering the subject matter of the thread.   It might be faster to list what ISN'T wrong with Texas at this point


www.cnn.com/2021/10/15/us/texas-schools-books-holocaust-state-law/index.html


The training session was first reported by NBC News. After teachers expressed frustration and confusion over the new guidelines, Gina Peddy -- executive director of curriculum and instruction for the district -- invoked the Holocaust as an example of a historic event that would require a teacher to keep on hand other books with "opposing" views.


WTF possible "alternative views" are there of the Holocaust?       The beating of the "critical race theory" drum in order to generate xenophobia and fear of losing privilege is getting out of control.   If we were a sane country this would be a "WHOA we need to do some reassesment of our thought process" moment.

Unfortunately there are too many people who probably agree with this.  

We did a whole semester on the Holocaust when I was in HS.  I got assigned the Dachau murder camp as my subject.   The stuff I read continues to haunt me if I allow myself to think about it.   Which I do because that's how we don't forget.  I can still quote pieces of the book Night from memory and I read that in middle school.

[Deleted]

Oct 15, 2021 9:30:33 GMT -5 NomoreDramaQ1015 said:

I think this belongs here considering the subject matter of the thread.   It might be faster to list what ISN'T wrong with Texas at this point


www.cnn.com/2021/10/15/us/texas-schools-books-holocaust-state-law/index.html


The training session was first reported by NBC News. After teachers expressed frustration and confusion over the new guidelines, Gina Peddy -- executive director of curriculum and instruction for the district -- invoked the Holocaust as an example of a historic event that would require a teacher to keep on hand other books with "opposing" views.


WTF possible "alternative views" are there of the Holocaust?       The beating of the "critical race theory" drum in order to generate xenophobia and fear of losing privilege is getting out of control.   If we were a sane country this would be a "WHOA we need to do some reassesment of our thought process" moment.

Unfortunately there are too many people who probably agree with this.  

We did a whole semester on the Holocaust when I was in HS.  I got assigned the Dachau murder camp as my subject.   The stuff I read continues to haunt me if I allow myself to think about it.   Which I do because that's how we don't forget.  I can still quote pieces of the book Night from memory and I read that in middle school.

Drama, I think it’s beyond awesome how much you read about and think about these things. I’m also in awe of how willing you are to look inside yourself and recognize things you can work on to be a part of change. 

If nobody has told you today that you are awesome and a wonderful woman, let me the the one to tell you that you are. I mean it.