discussion on "ghetto" - definition, connotation, usage

[laterbloomer]

Oct 2, 2021 17:54:33 GMT -5 @missrigby said:

Now I understand the woman who doesn't like working at this biscuit shop because it's "too ghetto" to suit her. She's black. If it's too ghetto for her, then it's too ghetto.

Please tell me you don't mean that the way it sounds.

[Deleted]

Oct 3, 2021 9:24:47 GMT -5 raeoflyte said:

Oct 3, 2021 4:44:22 GMT -5 @missrigby said:

An unambiguous statement. If you read something more into it, then that's on you because you had to be really trying hard to make it into something it isn't. My black co-worker is nervous and uncomfortable working there. I understand what she means.

It was a problematic statement on a couple different levels. I think people here know you wouldn't want to hurt someone's feelings and disregard the hurtful part because of that. But I want to know when I say something that is offensive or likely to offend someone from a different background (and I've done it plenty unfortunately), especially because I'm not trying to be offensive. Language changes and sometimes it can seem frustrating and limiting, but on a personal level almost all of us could/would make some frustrating/maybe difficult changes for someone we care about. It's just now we have a lot more sources to get that info.

dcentric.wamu.org/2011/05/ghetto-five-reasons-to-rethink-the-word/index.html

Thank you for making the effort to be aware and understand things like that yourself, and for explaining it AND for the link.

I did raise an eyebrow at that comment, but like you said, I don’t believe it was meant to offend, plus I’m tired of arguing and trying to educate about that kind of stuff, so I just kept it moving.

I think most of us have said things at some point in our lives that were unintentionally offensive, for one reason or another. I did it here, just a few weeks ago, using a particular phrase in response to another poster. A phrase that I use IRL, and it’s understood because that’s how we talk amongst friends. But it was received by this poster in a way I did not intend. I explained what I meant publicly, and apologized privately when I was made aware that that person was REALLY offended.

And guess what…… I didn’t die from acknowledging that person’s feelings about what I’d said and apologizing for offending them unintentionally.

[NastyWoman]

Oct 3, 2021 15:54:30 GMT -5 @pinkcshmere said:

Oct 3, 2021 9:24:47 GMT -5 raeoflyte said:

It was a problematic statement on a couple different levels. I think people here know you wouldn't want to hurt someone's feelings and disregard the hurtful part because of that. But I want to know when I say something that is offensive or likely to offend someone from a different background (and I've done it plenty unfortunately), especially because I'm not trying to be offensive. Language changes and sometimes it can seem frustrating and limiting, but on a personal level almost all of us could/would make some frustrating/maybe difficult changes for someone we care about. It's just now we have a lot more sources to get that info.

dcentric.wamu.org/2011/05/ghetto-five-reasons-to-rethink-the-word/index.html

Thank you for making the effort to be aware and understand things like that yourself, and for explaining it AND for the link.

I did raise an eyebrow at that comment, but like you said, I don’t believe it was meant to offend, plus I’m tired of arguing and trying to educate about that kind of stuff, so I just kept it moving.

I think most of us have said things at some point in our lives that were unintentionally offensive, for one reason or another. I did it here, just a few weeks ago, using a particular phrase in response to another poster. A phrase that I use IRL, and it’s understood because that’s how we talk amongst friends. But it was received by this poster in a way I did not intend. I explained what I meant publicly, and apologized privately when I was made aware that that person was REALLY offended.

And guess what…… I didn’t die from acknowledging that person’s feelings about what I’d said and apologizing for offending them unintentionally.

I can fully understand this and I know that is is not the responsibility of POC to educate others. I try not to be offensive but I am reasonably certain that I am unwittingly so on occasion. And I do learn a lot from places like this where people try to (mostly) respectfully understand each otber's POV.

For the record , with my background, the word ghetto represents places like the area I visited in Krakow a few years back - the place where Jewish people were herded to live By the Nazis wnd as such it says, to me at !east, far more about a society  that allows places like this to exist than about the people who live there. 

[Deleted]

Oct 3, 2021 16:16:21 GMT -5 NastyWoman said:

Oct 3, 2021 15:54:30 GMT -5 @pinkcshmere said:

Thank you for making the effort to be aware and understand things like that yourself, and for explaining it AND for the link.

I did raise an eyebrow at that comment, but like you said, I don’t believe it was meant to offend, plus I’m tired of arguing and trying to educate about that kind of stuff, so I just kept it moving.

I think most of us have said things at some point in our lives that were unintentionally offensive, for one reason or another. I did it here, just a few weeks ago, using a particular phrase in response to another poster. A phrase that I use IRL, and it’s understood because that’s how we talk amongst friends. But it was received by this poster in a way I did not intend. I explained what I meant publicly, and apologized privately when I was made aware that that person was REALLY offended.

And guess what…… I didn’t die from acknowledging that person’s feelings about what I’d said and apologizing for offending them unintentionally.

I can fully understand this and I know that is is not the responsibility of POC to educate others. I try not to be offensive but I am reasonably certain that I am unwittingly so on occasion. And I do learn a lot from places like this where people try to (mostly) respectfully understand each otber's POV.

For the record , with my background, the word ghetto represents places lime the area I visited in Krakow a few years back - the place where Jewish people were herded to live By the Nazis wnd as such it says, to me at !east, far more about a society  that allows places like this to exist than about the people who live there. 

I shared the story here about 10 years ago, when I was in Mississippi at a Home Depot, to buy a Weedeater. And before I got inside the store, a man in the parking lot said within earshot of my DD that I needed to take my “ghetto ass” back to Tennessee. My car has TN tags, but the stores in MS were closer to my home than the ones in TN.

I had on jeans and a t-shirt because I’d been working in my yard and my Weedeater started leaking gas, so I stopped and went to buy another one so I could finish my yard. And I do have a nose ring, but my jewels are always so small that even my Mom didn’t notice it for some months. I’d just got out of my car, and it does have chrome wheels, but it’s also just a freaking Honda Accord.  All that to say, it’s safe to assume that the only thing about the way I look that could be considered “ghetto”, is my skin color.

So, in America, just like it was explained in the link raeoflyte provided, that word is usually used in reference to Black people, and not in a positive way. When it’s used, it’s understood that it means a certain kind of Black person, or even just a Black person, period.

So, IRT the comment that was made here, it came off as sounding like, if a BLACK person even says something is ghetto, it’s confirmation that it’s REALLY bad. Why? I know about ‘hoods and have lived in them. But we have another poster here that is not Black and talks about living in the ‘hood. I’ve lived my whole life in or near a city that is predominantly Black and not wealthy. That city is the poor, Black sheep (pun intended) of the state. But I can’t think of an area in the city that I would call the ghetto. The “bad” or less wealthy parts of town are the ‘hoods. So, if you ask me, “ghetto” is a description, not a place, not a neighborhood, not a part of town. It’s a label assigned to Black people, as if we all either are that, or know all about it.

But those are just the opinions of Pink Cashmere, not the thoughts of all Black people or every American.

[Deleted]

My entire post went pouf. I deleted the "offending" portion of the first one and am retyping the pouf one.

Frankly, I'm sick to damn death of analyses, studies, reports, opinions, pie charts and all the rest of it. My co-worker's choice of words was her choice of words. Her feelings are her feelings. They're as valid to her as anybody else's words and feelings are to them.

Can we all just stop stop stop dissecting, parsing every syllable just in case we can find something that offends us or might offend somebody else somewhere? Then we can become highly indignant and take umbrage on behalf of all those whom we are convinced should be/would be offended if only they'd seen it. Enough. More than enough.

Words morph into different meanings. Here's a list of 10 that have changed meanings, with thanks to Mr. Google. If ghetto offends thee, think of it as an attitude or a feeling rather than a poor neighborhood. Or even a poor, Black neighborhood.

Awful. In Old English, 'awe' referred to “fear, terror or dread”. ...
Cute. A shortening of the word 'acute', 'cute' originally meant sharp or quick-witted, and was even written with an apostrophe in place of the missing A. ...
Fantastic. ...
Flirt. ...
Literally. ...
Meat. ...
Myriad. ...
Nervous.

How about issue? People used to have problems. Now they have issues. 

Furthermore, y'all worked yourselves into big, fat snits over her choice of words, and not one person mentioned the fact that the trainee came to work not only drunk on his arse, but packing. Packing! What's important? The choice of words or the possibility of a drunken employee shooting up the place and the other employees and the customers, too.

Gimme an effing break. Don't bother to respond. I'm done and can't be bothered.

[Deleted]

Oct 3, 2021 17:44:51 GMT -5 @missrigby said:

My entire post went pouf. I deleted the "offending" portion of the first one and am retyping the pouf one.

Frankly, I'm sick to damn death of analyses, studies, reports, opinions, pie charts and all the rest of it. My co-worker's choice of words was her choice of words. Her feelings are her feelings. They're as valid to her as anybody else's words and feelings are to them.

Can we all just stop stop stop dissecting, parsing every syllable just in case we can find something that offends us or might offend somebody else somewhere? Then we can become highly indignant and take umbrage on behalf of all those whom we are convinced should be/would be offended if only they'd seen it. Enough. More than enough.

Words morph into different meanings. Here's a list of 10 that have changed meanings, with thanks to Mr. Google. If ghetto offends thee, think of it as an attitude or a feeling rather than a poor neighborhood. Or even a poor, Black neighborhood.

Awful. In Old English, 'awe' referred to “fear, terror or dread”. ...
Cute. A shortening of the word 'acute', 'cute' originally meant sharp or quick-witted, and was even written with an apostrophe in place of the missing A. ...
Fantastic. ...
Flirt. ...
Literally. ...
Meat. ...
Myriad. ...
Nervous.

How about issue? People used to have problems. Now they have issues. 

Furthermore, y'all worked yourselves into big, fat snits over her choice of words, and not one person mentioned the fact that the trainee came to work not only drunk on his arse, but packing. Packing! What's important? The choice of words or the possibility of a drunken employee shooting up the place and the other employees and the customers, too.

Gimme an effing break. Don't bother to respond. I'm done and can't be bothered.

The answer to the bolded is No. Ma’am. 

Because the truth is that our words have power. The words I speak and even think about my life and myself…… have power. So do the words we speak to and about each other.

So, NO.

You choose to be done and unbothered. That is fine with me.

I choose to engage with and be bothered with people that are willing to grow and learn. As am I.

I don’t know a thing about chess, but I wanna say “checkmate” and idek if it’s appropriate here, right now. But if I was talking to someone I cared about IRL, and I was trying to hash an issue out, at this point…… where we’ve both said what we had to say….. I would say “so, now what”? 

And if they chose to go their way and let me go mine, I’d be ok with that. Because at least we would have a better understanding of each other and know why it was best to part ways.

So, I’m willing to let you go your way, while I go mine, especially if you refuse to even try to entertain the thought that maybe you DID say something crazy. 

I’ve been cutting people loose over the last few years, that I’ve “known” and been “friends” with for decades. I won’t lose any sleep over an anonymous person on a message board that refuses to entertain the thought that maybe they said something they probably shouldn’t have said. 

I’ve always liked you and enjoyed reading your posts that are often entertaining, with a bit of wisdom. But if you can’t be bothered to pay attention when I call you out on something offensive, the reality is that you are no friend of mine. I don’t make room in my life for people who are so unapologetically dismissive of me and my feelings.

I still wish you well though. Because I’m just that kind of person even when I wish I was not. 

[countrygirl2]

I say lots of things that seem to be offensive, I don't mean to and I try to remember and change, but I'm old. You wouldn't believe the things my parents used to say, its a wonder I ever moved beyond it. But it was the old stereotypes, the old ways, it seems to take years to move on from things like that. Also it takes the willingness of the community to move on. The folks did change as they aged but it had to be hard for them to understand too.

I still think as time goes on people will be more accepting of others.

We will always have a certain percentage of people like trumpers that will try to keep the old ways going. But hopefully if their kids move to more dynamic areas that can change too. It's a slow, to long process.

[raeoflyte]

Oct 3, 2021 18:30:07 GMT -5 @pinkcshmere said:

Oct 3, 2021 17:44:51 GMT -5 @missrigby said:

My entire post went pouf. I deleted the "offending" portion of the first one and am retyping the pouf one.

Frankly, I'm sick to damn death of analyses, studies, reports, opinions, pie charts and all the rest of it. My co-worker's choice of words was her choice of words. Her feelings are her feelings. They're as valid to her as anybody else's words and feelings are to them.

Can we all just stop stop stop dissecting, parsing every syllable just in case we can find something that offends us or might offend somebody else somewhere? Then we can become highly indignant and take umbrage on behalf of all those whom we are convinced should be/would be offended if only they'd seen it. Enough. More than enough.

Words morph into different meanings. Here's a list of 10 that have changed meanings, with thanks to Mr. Google. If ghetto offends thee, think of it as an attitude or a feeling rather than a poor neighborhood. Or even a poor, Black neighborhood.

Awful. In Old English, 'awe' referred to “fear, terror or dread”. ...
Cute. A shortening of the word 'acute', 'cute' originally meant sharp or quick-witted, and was even written with an apostrophe in place of the missing A. ...
Fantastic. ...
Flirt. ...
Literally. ...
Meat. ...
Myriad. ...
Nervous.

How about issue? People used to have problems. Now they have issues. 

Furthermore, y'all worked yourselves into big, fat snits over her choice of words, and not one person mentioned the fact that the trainee came to work not only drunk on his arse, but packing. Packing! What's important? The choice of words or the possibility of a drunken employee shooting up the place and the other employees and the customers, too.

Gimme an effing break. Don't bother to respond. I'm done and can't be bothered.

The answer to the bolded is No. Ma’am. 

Because the truth is that our words have power. The words I speak and even think about my life and myself…… have power. So do the words we speak to and about each other.

So, NO.

You choose to be done and unbothered. That is fine with me.

I choose to engage with and be bothered with people that are willing to grow and learn. As am I.

I don’t know a thing about chess, but I wanna say “checkmate” and idek if it’s appropriate here, right now. But if I was talking to someone I cared about IRL, and I was trying to hash an issue out, at this point…… where we’ve both said what we had to say….. I would say “so, now what”? 

And if they chose to go their way and let me go mine, I’d be ok with that. Because at least we would have a better understanding of each other and know why it was best to part ways.

So, I’m willing to let you go your way, while I go mine, especially if you refuse to even try to entertain the thought that maybe you DID say something crazy. 

I’ve been cutting people loose over the last few years, that I’ve “known” and been “friends” with for decades. I won’t lose any sleep over an anonymous person on a message board that refuses to entertain the thought that maybe they said something they probably shouldn’t have said. 

I’ve always liked you and enjoyed reading your posts that are often entertaining, with a bit of wisdom. But if you can’t be bothered to pay attention when I call you out on something offensive, the reality is that you are no friend of mine. I don’t make room in my life for people who are so unapologetically dismissive of me and my feelings.

I still wish you well though. Because I’m just that kind of person even when I wish I was not. 

I very much appreciate the perspective you're willing to share.

[Knee Deep in Water Chloe]

Just as a side note/to add to the conversation (not contradicting)

I generally think of the word ghetto 
as being poor or living in poverty. 
I do understand that outside of the very white world in which I live that it could definitely indicate race.

I don't think I use it often, but I will be more conscious about it. 



I have massive white fragility. I get insanely defensive even when a friend calls me out. That's a new aspect of my white culture--being called out-- that is definitely a hard adjustment, but I'm trying to listen without getting defensive. And I'm a bleeding heart liberal who now does call other white people out. My implicit bias is strong but totally sub-conscious. 

[steph08]

I've missed the last few pages, but a few thoughts after skimming.

Gira, the first time something bothered my kid at school, it took her two weeks to tell us. She was 6, now 7, but she was so bad during those weeks that I knew something was bothering her, and I had to wait out her "I don't knows," etc. I bought "Ruby finds a worry" by chance on the book order and that has been super helpful. That talking about what bothers you reduces the worry. Now, it only takes my kid an hour or two to say what's bothering her. But she also hasn't destroyed clothes or anything like that. She might at 9?5, who knows.

Miss R, I'm super sensitive when people call me out and I'm terrible about it, according to my DH. I'm trying to learn that even if I don't mean to be offensive or mean, if that is the way someone takes it, that's on me. Just my two cents.

Ran my marathon this morning, got rained on for 10 miles and totally bombed starting at mile 15! It was a longgggggg 11 miles to the finish, but I found another nice lady who was also suffering, so we did it together for the last 6 or so miles. Terrible race but good friends and nice town (Corning, NY).

[Deleted]

Oct 3, 2021 19:35:11 GMT -5 Knee Deep in Water Chloe said:

Just as a side note/to add to the conversation (not contradicting)

I generally think of the word ghetto 
as being poor or living in poverty. 
I do understand that outside of the very white world in which I live that it could definitely indicate race.

I don't think I use it often, but I will be more conscious about it. 



I have massive white fragility. I get insanely defensive even when a friend calls me out. That's a new aspect of my white culture--being called out-- that is definitely a hard adjustment, but I'm trying to listen without getting defensive. And I'm a bleeding heart liberal who now does call other white people out. My implicit bias is strong but totally sub-conscious. 

In MY opinion (which is really worth as much as assholes are, since it’s true that everyone has both) the point is to at least try to hear what the other person is saying. Listening, truly listening to what’s being said is a valuable skill in our personal, most intimate relationships, and also when we interact with other people in our lives. Imo, it’s human nature to value the feeling that someone actually listened to what we have to say, even if they ultimately disagreed with what we said. 

In MY opinion, AGAIN, I’m not interested in making people feel guilty about their lives and whatever privileges they’ve enjoyed so far because of random things that have nothing to do with who they are…..their morals and character. I’m interested in all of us just being honest and willing to try to move forward, respecting each other as human beings and without judging each other on things that have nothing to do with us as an individual and our character.

I’ve gotten distracted and don’t feel like finishing whatever my thoughts are on the subject, so a Merry goodnight to all, and I’m out!

[Deleted]

How the heck did anybody find a way to misconstrue most or all of anything I said about my co-worker's discomfort about the place we work? How? Were y'all so hellbent on finding something to argue about that you deliberately read your own notions into it?

Ugh. What I said about dissecting/parsing every syllable. Stupid. Stupid. Stupid.

1. If those of you who are dissing my comments will go back and read, you will understand that I was relaying my co-worker's words and distress, not my own, but yes, I understood how she'd feel uneasy.

2. Yes. From another poster "I've missed the last few pages, but a few thoughts after skimming." And therein lies the problem. Skimming. Yanno what? It is important to listen, really listen (in this case read) what's said by the poster, not by someone responding to the poster. I did not disagree with her so that makes me racist? What? Have y'all taken leave of your senses?

3. I'm at a loss to figure out WTF made laterbloomer decide that relaying the feelings of my black co-worker made me into a racist, what made raeoflyte (mistakenly) pick up on that, or what on earth possessed @pinkcshmere to rant. Except that it is important to listen, really listen...and y'all didn't.

Apparently there are those among you who simply want to get your butts up on your shoulders and are tickled to death that you have somebody to on.

My neighborhood is in a diverse area of the city. I didn't call it a ghetto. My co-worker used the word, not meaning a place but an attitude. Truth to tell, I had no idea that it meant anything except a place. I'm sorry that y'all are miffed at her words.

Except for one, all of my co-workers are black. I've been called "that old white lady who makes biscuits" and overhead someone say "that's something only white people do". I don't think it makes them racist, but what do I know?

Y'all can dismount from your high horses now. Y'all can continue to disparage me for repeating the word ghetto. And what right, after all, does my black co-worker have to use that word or any word? She must be racist along with me. Hmph. Let's all just jump on that ridiculous bandwagon.

It's very apparent that y'all are going to continue to believe that my relaying of a co-worker's valid feelings and of a harrowing incident at work makes me racist. Fine.

Let's quit using words altogether. Words can be mistaken, which is exactly what this post will prove. Again. Let's use sign language. For those of you who were determined to flame me without bothering to read and understand what was written, you know where you can go and what you can do when you get there. My social finger says it all. 

I am offended and rightly so. Maybe I'll be back sometime. Or not.

[giramomma]

Oct 4, 2021 4:03:35 GMT -5 @missrigby said:

My neighborhood is in a diverse area of the city. I didn't call it a ghetto. My co-worker used the word, not meaning a place but an attitude. Truth to tell, I had no idea that it meant anything except a place. I'm sorry that y'all are miffed at her words.

FWIW, one of my mentors used "ghetto" to describe an attitude of a kiddo once that we both used to work with.

The kiddo was not raised in the place, but had the attitudes.

My mentor has made it her life's work specifically teaching "at-risk" kids. Of course, there is quite a range. Inner city Milwaukee (where she spent most of her working life before retirement from the public schools) at risk kids and at risk kids in the city we live in now...are two completely different situations.

It never dawned on me that describing someone as being ghetto would be anything different as describing someone as a Karen or saying "OK, Boomer."

I also don't see it as a racial issue. Non-POC live in the ghetto, too. They can have ghetto attitudes. My son talks about this pretty openly.

It also wouldn't bother me to hear it. Not everyone has the time to think through every word so that it would pass DEI muster. I think that's a luxury in itself that shows privilege.

[Opti]

I didn't call it a ghetto. My co-worker used the word, not meaning a place but an attitude.

I've had people at work use it to describe a certain variety of over the top unprofessional behavior. Like many words, it can mean many things. 

[andi9899]

Oct 4, 2021 8:54:16 GMT -5 giramomma said:

Oct 4, 2021 4:03:35 GMT -5 @missrigby said:

My neighborhood is in a diverse area of the city. I didn't call it a ghetto. My co-worker used the word, not meaning a place but an attitude. Truth to tell, I had no idea that it meant anything except a place. I'm sorry that y'all are miffed at her words.

FWIW, one of my mentors used "ghetto" to describe an attitude of a kiddo once that we both used to work with.

The kiddo was not raised in the place, but had the attitudes.

My mentor has made it her life's work specifically teaching "at-risk" kids. Of course, there is quite a range. Inner city Milwaukee (where she spent most of her working life before retirement from the public schools) at risk kids and at risk kids in the city we live in now...are two completely different situations.

It never dawned on me that describing someone as being ghetto would be anything different as describing someone as a Karen or saying "OK, Boomer."

I also don't see it as a racial issue. Non-POC live in the ghetto, too. They can have ghetto attitudes. My son talks about this pretty openly.

It also wouldn't bother me to hear it. Not everyone has the time to think through every word so that it would pass DEI muster. I think that's a luxury in itself that shows privilege.

The issue was not with the word ghetto being used. It was the statement "she's black so if she says it's ghetto, then it is." I'm not black but I still found the statement offensive. Pink tried to explain her perspective and IMO did so politely. MissR then went on a tangent and stomped off.

[raeoflyte]

But if someone says, hey - that offends me, do you just keep using the word, because you didn't mean it that way?

I'm dripping with privilege.

I don't spend time looking to dissect statements, but I do spend time trying to read, watch, and interact with POC to learn how I can be a better ally and it isn't a rare opinion that the term is racially motivated with negative connotations.

If we can't have direct conversations with each other in this almost entirely white, online space, I think our country is fucked. We will never move past the current state of 1960's post civil rights racial inequity. It's not as much burning crosses today as it is upholding systems that conveniently keep us blind to the realities of neighbors. We're all going to be uncomfortable as we realize insensitive and racist things we've said or done unintentionally. But intentions don't matter, and if we really want change, not just lip service, we have to be able to call each other out. Its not hey - you're a bad person, but hey those statements are heard very differently than you mean and this is why.

[lurkyloo]

What andi said.

As regards privilege:  today’s first world problem is that my battery died in my beloved 2005 focus wagon, so I am forced, forced I tell you, to drive DH‘s corvette to my neurology appointment.    Having first had DH recharge it enough to go drop it off at the local auto shop, who had the right battery in stock, and enjoyed the less than half mile walk home on a lovely fall day.  And used DH‘s Caddy to drive DS to school.  Funny part is that usually the focus is the reliable car!  Battery was 6 years old so I probably should’ve seen it coming.

[Lizard Queen]

Oct 4, 2021 9:14:14 GMT -5 raeoflyte said:

But if someone says, hey - that offends me, do you just keep using the word, because you didn't mean it that way?

I'm dripping with privilege.

I don't spend time looking to dissect statements, but I do spend time trying to read, watch, and interact with POC to learn how I can be a better ally and it isn't a rare opinion that the term is racially motivated with negative connotations.

If we can't have direct conversations with each other in this almost entirely white, online space, I think our country is fucked. We will never move past the current state of 1960's post civil rights racial inequity. It's not as much burning crosses today as it is upholding systems that conveniently keep us blind to the realities of neighbors. We're all going to be uncomfortable as we realize insensitive and racist things we've said or done unintentionally. But intentions don't matter, and if we really want change, not just lip service, we have to be able to call each other out. Its not hey - you're a bad person, but hey those statements are heard very differently than you mean and this is why.

Actually, intentions do matter, and if we ignore that, we're going to shut down conversations and push away more and more people, creating a larger divide.

[andi9899]

Oct 4, 2021 9:14:14 GMT -5 raeoflyte said:

But if someone says, hey - that offends me, do you just keep using the word, because you didn't mean it that way?

I'm dripping with privilege.

I don't spend time looking to dissect statements, but I do spend time trying to read, watch, and interact with POC to learn how I can be a better ally and it isn't a rare opinion that the term is racially motivated with negative connotations.

If we can't have direct conversations with each other in this almost entirely white, online space, I think our country is fucked. We will never move past the current state of 1960's post civil rights racial inequity. It's not as much burning crosses today as it is upholding systems that conveniently keep us blind to the realities of neighbors. We're all going to be uncomfortable as we realize insensitive and racist things we've said or done unintentionally. But intentions don't matter, and if we really want change, not just lip service, we have to be able to call each other out. Its not hey - you're a bad person, but hey those statements are heard very differently than you mean and this is why.

Again, the word is not the problem. It was the subsequent statement.

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

Oct 4, 2021 9:14:14 GMT -5 raeoflyte said:

But if someone says, hey - that offends me, do you just keep using the word, because you didn't mean it that way?

I make the effort to change my habits and drop certain words and phrases.     I own it though if I am called out.  If I am offended it is my job to process it and deal with it.  It is not their job to pacify me or educate me.  It costs me nothing to change my speech there are thousands of other words I can choose.   I can still disagree with you in private

I will say that I have been amazed at how HARD it's been to change some things.   You don't realize how much you managed to absorb through osmosis till you start paying attention to it.

There is a word my dad uses all the time that I had absolutely no clue was racist because I never saw him use it in that context.  Not knowing I formed my own context around it as a kid.  Oh boy was it humiliating when I used it on here, fortunately someone was nice enough to privately PM me to let me know. I quickly deleted it.  I removed that word from my vocabulary.

[andi9899]

Oct 4, 2021 9:44:46 GMT -5 Opti said:

Oct 4, 2021 9:13:06 GMT -5 andi9899 said:

The issue was not with the word ghetto being used. It was the statement "she's black so if she says it's ghetto, then it is." I'm not black but I still found the statement offensive. Pink tried to explain her perspective and IMO did so politely. MissR then went on a tangent and stomped off.

That's not the actual statement from the post though. Its your interpretation of it. I think it started something like "My black co-worker said ...".

I read it first somewhat like Pink did, but the word is not triggering to me personally, so I decided I didn't know for certain what she meant so I was not going to judge it one way or the other. Part of the problem is people assume things when statements trigger them. I think some assumed that because she used black as a descriptor for the coworker it meant she assumed all black people knew ghetto so she would trust that. She did not say that however. Had she used fat or say Asian instead as a descriptor, I bet the reaction would be different.

I can't quote the statement word for word because it's gone now. That was basically what it said. And she didn’t use another word. She said black and that the fact that the black person perceived something as ghetto then it must be.

I don't think we'd even still be talking about it had she taken the time to reflect on what was said and discuss it vs throwing a fit and leaving.

[raeoflyte]

Oct 4, 2021 9:37:53 GMT -5 andi9899 said:

Oct 4, 2021 9:14:14 GMT -5 raeoflyte said:

But if someone says, hey - that offends me, do you just keep using the word, because you didn't mean it that way?

I'm dripping with privilege.

I don't spend time looking to dissect statements, but I do spend time trying to read, watch, and interact with POC to learn how I can be a better ally and it isn't a rare opinion that the term is racially motivated with negative connotations.

If we can't have direct conversations with each other in this almost entirely white, online space, I think our country is fucked. We will never move past the current state of 1960's post civil rights racial inequity. It's not as much burning crosses today as it is upholding systems that conveniently keep us blind to the realities of neighbors. We're all going to be uncomfortable as we realize insensitive and racist things we've said or done unintentionally. But intentions don't matter, and if we really want change, not just lip service, we have to be able to call each other out. Its not hey - you're a bad person, but hey those statements are heard very differently than you mean and this is why.

Again, the word is not the problem. It was the subsequent statement.

I dont disagree, the context makes it worse. But I've never heard the word used as it was originally intended or in a way that wasn't meant as an insult. I've used it in the past, but never in a way that I could defend. In our last neighborhood everyone described it as ghetto, and 100% they said it because it was brown and "poor". Quotes because poor is absolutely in comparison to expensive mostly white suburbs.

It's a word that is more problematic when used by white people imo, and knowing how it comes across I usually want to know.

[raeoflyte]

Oct 4, 2021 9:36:04 GMT -5 Lizard Queen said:

Oct 4, 2021 9:14:14 GMT -5 raeoflyte said:

But if someone says, hey - that offends me, do you just keep using the word, because you didn't mean it that way?

I'm dripping with privilege.

I don't spend time looking to dissect statements, but I do spend time trying to read, watch, and interact with POC to learn how I can be a better ally and it isn't a rare opinion that the term is racially motivated with negative connotations.

If we can't have direct conversations with each other in this almost entirely white, online space, I think our country is fucked. We will never move past the current state of 1960's post civil rights racial inequity. It's not as much burning crosses today as it is upholding systems that conveniently keep us blind to the realities of neighbors. We're all going to be uncomfortable as we realize insensitive and racist things we've said or done unintentionally. But intentions don't matter, and if we really want change, not just lip service, we have to be able to call each other out. Its not hey - you're a bad person, but hey those statements are heard very differently than you mean and this is why.

Actually, intentions do matter, and if we ignore that, we're going to shut down conversations and push away more and more people, creating a larger divide.

I really don't think my post yesterday came across as shutting down the conversation. It was about having the uncomfortable conversation instead of glossing over it.

I tried to convey that I was certain of MissR's good intentions. I'm sorry MissR felt attacked. That always sucks, but I wouldn't change my response because they are conversations we need to have.

[bean29]

If we can't have direct conversations with each other in this almost entirely white, online space, I think our country is fucked. We will never move past the current state of 1960's post civil rights racial inequity. It's not as much burning crosses today as it is upholding systems that conveniently keep us blind to the realities of neighbors. We're all going to be uncomfortable as we realize insensitive and racist things we've said or done unintentionally. But intentions don't matter, and if we really want change, not just lip service, we have to be able to call each other out. Its not hey - you're a bad person, but hey those statements are heard very differently than you mean and this is why.

Actually, intentions do matter, and if we ignore that, we're going to shut down conversations and push away more and more people, creating a larger divide.

Interestingly - I don't think YM is entirely or mostly white.  I think we are pretty reflective of society in general, except for the fact that we skew older.  I do think though that we are more colorblind.  I am generally aware of who it what race, only b/c people have disclosed a lot along the way.  That however does not mean that what I remember and or understood to be correct.  We also sometimes get behind on conversations or threads and miss things, so yeah.  Race is not really the most important thing to me, so I don't necessarily track it.

I hope Miss R stays/comes back.  I also have gotten mad and taken a break for a short period of time and or blocked certain posters.  

[Lizard Queen]

Oct 4, 2021 10:24:37 GMT -5 raeoflyte said:

Oct 4, 2021 9:36:04 GMT -5 Lizard Queen said:

Actually, intentions do matter, and if we ignore that, we're going to shut down conversations and push away more and more people, creating a larger divide.

I really don't think my post yesterday came across as shutting down the conversation. It was about having the uncomfortable conversation instead of glossing over it.

I tried to convey that I was certain of MissR's good intentions. I'm sorry MissR felt attacked. That always sucks, but I wouldn't change my response because they are conversations we need to have.

But I think you completely ignored what a little old lady was rightfully freaked out about with her hobby job. A (likely ex-con, because most of them are, apparently) co-worker brought a gun to work with him. (I think it was a him? Doesn't matter, because--gun!!!)

[seriousthistime]

Years ago my friend who had three developmentally disabled brothers called me out on the word "retard."  I hadn't used it in relation to her brothers, but as a substitute for the word "moron" (which is probably another loaded word). After she called me out, I did a little research and found that using the R word was a "thing" and I never used it again, in any context.  

Once we know better, we do better.  

And then some years later a frequent on-and-off poster here, whose son was disabled (she referred to him as a dwarf), made some statement about someone having a fit like a retard in a grocery store or something.  I responded to that post by saying the R word was not cool or appropriate, and provided a link. I don't recall whether she responded to my post.  I think she let it go. I hope she learned something. 

We are all learning.  When I read the post we're all talking about, that word stuck out.  When she was called out on it, the appropriate response would be to say she was quoting what her coworker said, she doesn't use it herself and didn't understand it was a "thing," and she didn't know that repeating what her coworker said would be such a trigger here, and she was sorry for that.  The inappropriate response was throwing a fit and leaving.

However, she's a favorite poster of a lot of the people here, and when she comes back she will be welcomed with open arms.  She will be cut more slack than someone who is not a favorite. 

[raeoflyte]

Oct 4, 2021 10:39:14 GMT -5 Lizard Queen said:

Oct 4, 2021 10:24:37 GMT -5 raeoflyte said:

I really don't think my post yesterday came across as shutting down the conversation. It was about having the uncomfortable conversation instead of glossing over it.

I tried to convey that I was certain of MissR's good intentions. I'm sorry MissR felt attacked. That always sucks, but I wouldn't change my response because they are conversations we need to have.

But I think you completely ignored what a little old lady was rightfully freaked out about with her hobby job. A (likely ex-con, because most of them are, apparently) co-worker brought a gun to work with him. (I think it was a him? Doesn't matter, because--gun!!!)

I did. I didn't respond to her first post, but to her response to Later that wasn't about her coworker with a gun.

[andi9899]

Oct 4, 2021 10:38:25 GMT -5 Opti said:

Oct 4, 2021 9:59:14 GMT -5 andi9899 said:

I can't quote the statement word for word because it's gone now. That was basically what it said. And she didn’t use another word. She said black and that the fact that the black person perceived something as ghetto then it must be.

I don't think we'd even still be talking about it had she taken the time to reflect on what was said and discuss it vs throwing a fit and leaving.

It can't be discussed because some posters took the position they knew what she meant better than she did. So it was more of a how dare you believe what I assumed you believe situation. People weren't looking for clarification or discussion. They wanted Miss R to say she was wrong and apologize. That's not a discussion, its a poster public reprimand.

Now, if someone could have been honest and realized how they read her statement included an assumption there could have been a discussion. It could have even included something like, when I saw that I assumed you meant all black people know what ghetto is.  Many people might see it the way I did, so perhaps in the future, leave out the word black so people like me don't make the wrong assumption.

I disagree with 100% of this post.

[Lizard Queen]

Oct 4, 2021 10:51:27 GMT -5 raeoflyte said:

Oct 4, 2021 10:39:14 GMT -5 Lizard Queen said:

But I think you completely ignored what a little old lady was rightfully freaked out about with her hobby job. A (likely ex-con, because most of them are, apparently) co-worker brought a gun to work with him. (I think it was a him? Doesn't matter, because--gun!!!)

I did. I didn't respond to her first post, but to her response to Later that wasn't about her coworker with a gun.

Okay, in the meantime we've all been distracted from the mortal danger aspect of the whole thing.

[Opti]

Oct 4, 2021 10:50:11 GMT -5 seriousthistime said:

Years ago my friend who had three developmentally disabled brothers called me out on the word "retard."  I hadn't used it in relation to her brothers, but as a substitute for the word "moron" (which is probably another loaded word). After she called me out, I did a little research and found that using the R word was a "thing" and I never used it again, in any context.  

Once we know better, we do better.  

And then some years later a frequent on-and-off poster here, whose son was disabled (she referred to him as a dwarf), made some statement about someone having a fit like a retard in a grocery store or something.  I responded to that post by saying the R word was not cool or appropriate, and provided a link. I don't recall whether she responded to my post.  I think she let it go. I hope she learned something. 

We are all learning.  When I read the post we're all talking about, that word stuck out.  When she was called out on it, the appropriate response would be to say she was quoting what her coworker said, she doesn't use it herself and didn't understand it was a "thing," and she didn't know that repeating what her coworker said would be such a trigger here, and she was sorry for that.  The inappropriate response was throwing a fit and leaving.

However, she's a favorite poster of a lot of the people here, and when she comes back she will be welcomed with open arms.  She will be cut more slack than someone who is not a favorite. 

So is the consensus that we should never use the word ghetto? Are exceptions allowed for discussing areas in other countries? Its not a word I generally use, but it does not help that popular culture uses it.

I remember this painful sketch from SNL.

snltranscripts.jt.org/15/talking-about-ghetto.phtml