discussion on "ghetto" - definition, connotation, usage

[Rukh O'Rorke]

Oct 5, 2021 13:33:49 GMT -5 swasat said:

I, for one, am very glad this discussion is happening.

I haven't posted here in a while but I read sometimes. And I am squarely on the POC's side. MissRigby was a prolific poster who was well loved here and treated like a grandma. But in this particular scenario she took it way too far. Being an old lady or being used to certain ways gives her no excuse to behave the way she did. And then the burden was put on the offended to "just let it go" or "take the discussion elsewhere". WHY? Why was she not told to stop posting or stop digging in her heels? 

To a Polish person, the word "ghetto" has absolutely horrendous meaning! Should we Americans keep using the word in front of Polish Jews because to us the word "ghetto" is not bad? Why would ANYONE want to be that kind of asshole? Just why? What reason/excuse can one come up with? 

Why classify "ghetto" with Blacks? 

Throwing a tantrum proves no one's innocence. Ever. It just shows how childish you are and how removed from others. And how full of yourself!

#TeamPinkCashmere #TeamAndi #TeamPOC #TeamAntiSlurOfANyKind #TeamNotForgivingOfRacialProfiling

What she said!

[Rukh O'Rorke]

Oct 5, 2021 19:39:14 GMT -5 swamp said:

Oct 5, 2021 19:21:04 GMT -5 @pinkcshmere said:

Well, where I live, it’s n$@@#- rigged. No lie.

Me too, but I wasn’t going to mention it lol.   

in ny? so dissapointing.

I have never heard that term.

[tallguy]

Oct 5, 2021 20:30:00 GMT -5 laterbloomer said:

Not a term I'm familiar with in any of it's incarnations so I googled it and what I found said jerry rigged and it historically was a diss on Germans. Which surprises me because Germany has a reputation for good engineering.

I would question your source.  The original term was jury-rigged.  There was another term called jerry-built.  They mean different things, but both predate the WWI British slang term "Jerries" to refer to Germans.  "Jerry-rigged" was not a real term but instead was a confusion of the other two.  Like many non-words, however, it became common enough to now be accepted.


With regard to the whole "ghetto" thing, this is what happens when people start to use nouns as adjectives.  They just screw everything up!  

[swamp]

Oct 5, 2021 22:45:27 GMT -5 Rukh O'Rorke said:

Oct 5, 2021 19:39:14 GMT -5 swamp said:

Me too, but I wasn’t going to mention it lol.   

in ny? so dissapointing.

I have never heard that term.

I live in upstate NY. It’s very rednecky.

[andi9899]

Oct 5, 2021 19:41:15 GMT -5 @pinkcshmere said:

Oct 5, 2021 19:39:14 GMT -5 swamp said:

Me too, but I wasn’t going to mention it lol.   

Whew! At least somebody knows that I didn’t make that up.

I've heard the term too.

[Rukh O'Rorke]

Oct 5, 2021 9:58:44 GMT -5 minnesotapaintlady said:

Oct 5, 2021 9:30:53 GMT -5 gs11rmb said:

I haven’t been posting much because I’ve been busy at work. I skimmed a little of this yesterday and just read through the whole thread. My take: Miss R said something offensive without realizing that she was doing so. All she had to do was say “I’m sorry that’s not what I meant and I apologize if I offended or hurt someone’s feelings”. I’m actually pretty stunned that she dug her heels in so hard and refused to back down.

Miss R did throw a tantrum. It seems extremely unfair that people who were either offended by the comment, in general, or who have actually experienced the word ‘ghetto’ being used to insult or hurt should be expected to just let it go and end the discussion. Other subjects can be discussed ad nauseum, why not this one?

I guess I'm just confused by the end goal of not letting it go.  Was it to force her through peer pressure to apologize?  How sincere is a forced apology anyhow?  Either you are sorry or you're not.

I wanted to address this before letting this go.

I think after the first screed or two, it was clear no self reflection or apology would be had. But there were other posters that kept defending that offending post. there was a separate thread dedicated to defending that post, and then many others who were like "I'm not addressing this", "I'm not dealing with this" - so there was a very clear need to discuss why that post was problematic - yes, the originator of the issue was not going to be enlightened or educated - but there was a lot more going on from a lot more posters that showed that this needed much more discussion and - yes - some kind of resolution. 

And then encouragement to just drop it and for Pink to "get over it"? so wrong! 

If everyone had just said - "sorry rigby, you're in the wrong here, that was not ok to say" and then did not reply to her elongated justifications, it would have been ok to move on.

Moving these posts to another, isolated thread for whatever resolution is to be had is also very problematic imo.

As mentioned, none of us are ever likely to convince a hard-core racist to embrace equality, but if we can't even step up to have the back of a POC in our community when they politely say - hey - that's not really ok to say, that marginalized me in this community - then when is anything ever going to be addressed by anyone? it's always going to be uncomfortable, it's always going to be inconvenient and not what anyone wants to be doing right now.

[Deleted]

Oct 6, 2021 13:18:34 GMT -5 Rukh O'Rorke said:

Oct 5, 2021 9:58:44 GMT -5 minnesotapaintlady said:

I guess I'm just confused by the end goal of not letting it go.  Was it to force her through peer pressure to apologize?  How sincere is a forced apology anyhow?  Either you are sorry or you're not.

I wanted to address this before letting this go.

I think after the first screed or two, it was clear no self reflection or apology would be had. But there were other posters that kept defending that offending post. there was a separate thread dedicated to defending that post, and then many others who were like "I'm not addressing this", "I'm not dealing with this" - so there was a very clear need to discuss why that post was problematic - yes, the originator of the issue was not going to be enlightened or educated - but there was a lot more going on from a lot more posters that showed that this needed much more discussion and - yes - some kind of resolution. 

And then encouragement to just drop it and for Pink to "get over it"? so wrong! 

If everyone had just said - "sorry rigby, you're in the wrong here, that was not ok to say" and then did not reply to her elongated justifications, it would have been ok to move on.

Moving these posts to another, isolated thread for whatever resolution is to be had is also very problematic imo.

As mentioned, none of us are ever likely to convince a hard-core racist to embrace equality, but if we can't even step up to have the back of a POC in our community when they politely say - hey - that's not really ok to say, that marginalized me in this community - then when is anything ever going to be addressed by anyone? it's always going to be uncomfortable, it's always going to be inconvenient and not what anyone wants to be doing right now.

Here’s another thing….

I saw the comment when it was originally posted. I saw Later’s first post. I still said nothing myself, until raeoflyte said something. And in my reply to raeoflyte, I said that I’d raised an eyebrow when I first saw it, but I didn’t say anything because I was tired of arguing and trying to educate about that kind of thing.

A lot of times when a minority is the first and only person to bring attention to something they see as a problem, they get ignored, told they are too sensitive, or accused of “pulling the race card”. The same thing can happen to a woman, like in the post prior poster made about how men reacted to a woman saying a man made her uncomfortable. It’s uncomfortable and crazy making to experience something and express how you feel about it or felt in that moment and have people insist on invalidating your truth.

That is what I didn’t feel like having to fight against, and why I didn’t say anything at first. It’s the same thing when I said something about the *rigged words. When swamp said she’d heard that term before, I was literally relieved that somebody else had heard it, so it didn’t seem like I’d just made something up to be controversial or whatever. I quoted her and said as much.

That is a problem. I don’t even feel like I can speak my truth and let it stand on its own, it needs to be validated by a white person to get people to believe me or even listen to me. It’s ingrained. Because throughout history here, very little has improved for Black folks in America, just because we spoke up. Things only happen when white people stand up for or with us. 

We have been talking about police brutality against minorities for DECADES. And we were just shouting in the wind. Until somebody caught George Floyd’s murder on camera and there was undeniable proof of what happened to him. And finally White people started paying attention to what we’d been saying for decades, and it became a big deal. When it should’ve been a big deal when so many others before George Floyd, were murdered at the hands of the police.

[susana1954]

Rukh O'Rorke , I think some of us stayed out of this discussion because we have nothing of substance to contribute.  What was said was wrong.  I affirmed Pink's comments several times with the "like" button.  Nothing I said would have made any difference, and there was much potential to say it in such a way that it came out "wrong."  I have nothing but respect for Pink, and she expressed her position so eloquently.  I hope she knows that.

This was a discussion, not a show of hands.  


ETA:  This is a comment in response to the post before your LAST post.  It makes no sense after that post, but I'll let it stand.

[chiver78]

a few people have made the comment about opening the separate thread being a bad idea, and I wanted to address that. thanks for the airspace to do so. 

what Susana just said - some of us stayed out of the discussion because we had nothing of substance to contribute. I also stayed out because I thought I'd need to moderate at some point, not expecting things to go sideways as badly as they did. I'm still trying to not participate too much for that reason. I appreciate that this conversation is still ongoing, as I feel like it is one that needs to be had. I had hoped that pulling everything over to its own thread would allow folks to continue this conversation without having people ask them to just stop. 

please, continue speaking. 

-chiver mod

[Deleted]

Oct 6, 2021 13:57:34 GMT -5 susana1954 said:

Rukh O'Rorke , I think some of us stayed out of this discussion because we have nothing of substance to contribute.  What was said was wrong.  I affirmed Pink's comments several times with the "like" button.  Nothing I said would have made any difference, and there was much potential to say it in such a way that it came out "wrong."  I have nothing but respect for Pink, and she expressed her position so eloquently.  I hope she knows that.

This was a discussion, not a show of hands.  


ETA:  This is a comment in response to the post before your LAST post.  It makes no sense after that post, but I'll let it stand.

Thank you, I have much respect for you too.

[Deleted]

Oct 6, 2021 13:57:34 GMT -5 susana1954 said:

Rukh O'Rorke , I think some of us stayed out of this discussion because we have nothing of substance to contribute. <snip>Nothing I said would have made any difference, and there was much potential to say it in such a way that it came out "wrong."

I feel the same way.  I appreciate Chiver's hard work to extract this all to a separate discussion and have lurked with interest and learned some things.

[nidena]

I often wonder how many people who live in 95+% white areas actually take the time to educate themselves on the bullshit that Blacks and other POC have to deal with daily.

I mean, yeah, millions of people were aghast at the death of George Floyd and Breonna Taylor and Ahmaud Arbery because those incidents were in our faces and on the news.  My Black friends are exhausted.  For them, it's like "Well, it's Tuesday.  Another Black heartbeat snuffed out but still no real efforts to quell these situations."

So, I ask my fellow Whitey MacPhersons just WHAT are you doing to bring about change?  What HAVE you done now that you know this shit happens DAILY?

Even taking steps to stop watching white savior movies is a step in the right direction because they reinforce the misnomer that Blacks can't get ahead unless there's a white person making that grand gesture a la Kevin Costner in Hidden Figures and taking a crow bar to the Colored sign.  (Note to those who haven't read the book: That NEVER happened; it just makes for good white cinema)

[Opti]

Oct 6, 2021 13:18:34 GMT -5 Rukh O'Rorke said:

Oct 5, 2021 9:58:44 GMT -5 minnesotapaintlady said:

I guess I'm just confused by the end goal of not letting it go.  Was it to force her through peer pressure to apologize?  How sincere is a forced apology anyhow?  Either you are sorry or you're not.

I wanted to address this before letting this go.

I think after the first screed or two, it was clear no self reflection or apology would be had. But there were other posters that kept defending that offending post. there was a separate thread dedicated to defending that post, and then many others who were like "I'm not addressing this", "I'm not dealing with this" - so there was a very clear need to discuss why that post was problematic - yes, the originator of the issue was not going to be enlightened or educated - but there was a lot more going on from a lot more posters that showed that this needed much more discussion and - yes - some kind of resolution. 

And then encouragement to just drop it and for Pink to "get over it"? so wrong! 

If everyone had just said - "sorry rigby, you're in the wrong here, that was not ok to say" and then did not reply to her elongated justifications, it would have been ok to move on.

Moving these posts to another, isolated thread for whatever resolution is to be had is also very problematic imo.

As mentioned, none of us are ever likely to convince a hard-core racist to embrace equality, but if we can't even step up to have the back of a POC in our community when they politely say - hey - that's not really ok to say, that marginalized me in this community - then when is anything ever going to be addressed by anyone? it's always going to be uncomfortable, it's always going to be inconvenient and not what anyone wants to be doing right now.

No just no. I created that other thread. I think Miss R's original post was already deleted so it couldn't even be referred to. So I think Andi had one interpretation, I remembered a different sentence from that post (and was addressing that) and eventually it turned out
both Later and Pink had saved the offending sentences as written. 

I know Pink was upset with people telling her to shut up. As not Pink, it was obvious to me that besides Miss R, it appeared to be just posters who wanted the fight/discussion moved out of that thread. Some did not want to get involved, some didn't like it interrupting the thread, and convention anyway has always been to move  to PM or start another thread. 

I did not get it. It had be put in a dumbed down version for me to understand the problem. 

I used to copy and rewrite emails I received from my Minister. Often because I saw red. After hours passed I was able to point out you said this, made me think feel that, and perhaps here's an example how to do this better. After multiple times it did work. I think if someone had been able to realize not all of us come with a POV that understands this as offensive, that rewriting/reframing is necessary if you want someone to understand what you see & feel. 

So as a reimagining of what could have been posted and hopefully not offend. Here's an attempt.
My coworker has been telling me for weeks our workplace is the g word. Now, I think I get it. Per her, its gotten worse. She told me a newly hired coworker, which she says will stay hired, came to work drunk and carrying a gun. O. M. How will I deal with this?

[swamp]

Oct 6, 2021 13:57:34 GMT -5 susana1954 said:

Rukh O'Rorke , I think some of us stayed out of this discussion because we have nothing of substance to contribute.  What was said was wrong.  I affirmed Pink's comments several times with the "like" button.  Nothing I said would have made any difference, and there was much potential to say it in such a way that it came out "wrong."  I have nothing but respect for Pink, and she expressed her position so eloquently.  I hope she knows that.

This was a discussion, not a show of hands.  


ETA:  This is a comment in response to the post before your LAST post.  It makes no sense after that post, but I'll let it stand.

I also hung back from the discuss because I wasn’t sure what to say. I love Miss R but she was way out of line.

I also love Pink, and also have mad respect for her.

I hate it when family fights. I also hate it when someone I really liked and respected went way out of bounds.

[swamp]

Oct 6, 2021 14:41:19 GMT -5 Opti said:

Oct 6, 2021 13:18:34 GMT -5 Rukh O'Rorke said:

I wanted to address this before letting this go.

I think after the first screed or two, it was clear no self reflection or apology would be had. But there were other posters that kept defending that offending post. there was a separate thread dedicated to defending that post, and then many others who were like "I'm not addressing this", "I'm not dealing with this" - so there was a very clear need to discuss why that post was problematic - yes, the originator of the issue was not going to be enlightened or educated - but there was a lot more going on from a lot more posters that showed that this needed much more discussion and - yes - some kind of resolution. 

And then encouragement to just drop it and for Pink to "get over it"? so wrong! 

If everyone had just said - "sorry rigby, you're in the wrong here, that was not ok to say" and then did not reply to her elongated justifications, it would have been ok to move on.

Moving these posts to another, isolated thread for whatever resolution is to be had is also very problematic imo.

As mentioned, none of us are ever likely to convince a hard-core racist to embrace equality, but if we can't even step up to have the back of a POC in our community when they politely say - hey - that's not really ok to say, that marginalized me in this community - then when is anything ever going to be addressed by anyone? it's always going to be uncomfortable, it's always going to be inconvenient and not what anyone wants to be doing right now.

No just no. I created that other thread. I think Miss R's original post was already deleted so it couldn't even be referred to. So I think Andi had one interpretation, I remembered a different sentence from that post (and was addressing that) and eventually it turned out
both Later and Pink had saved the offending sentences as written. 

I know Pink was upset with people telling her to shut up. As not Pink, it was obvious to me that besides Miss R, it appeared to be just posters who wanted the fight/discussion moved out of that thread. Some did not want to get involved, some didn't like it interrupting the thread, and convention anyway has always been to move  to PM or start another thread. 

I did not get it. It had be put in a dumbed down version for me to understand the problem. Miss R would probably need a different dumbed down description. Miss R knew Later and the POC supporters would run her out on a rail. That probably clouded her judgment and her ability to make sense. IDK.

I used to copy and rewrite emails I received from my Minister. Often because I saw red. After hours passed I was able to point out you said this, made me think feel that, and perhaps here's an example how to do this better. After multiple times it did work. I think if someone had been able to realize not all of us come with a POV that understands this as offensive, that rewriting/reframing is necessary if you want someone to understand what you see & feel. 

So as a reimagining of what could have been posted and hopefully not offend. Here's an attempt.
My coworker has been telling me for weeks our workplace is the g word. Now, I think I get it. Per her, its gotten worse. She told me a newly hired coworker, which she says will stay hired, came to work drunk and carrying a gun. O. M. How will I deal with this?

The POC supporters. You might as well have said “those people”.

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

Oct 6, 2021 14:41:19 GMT -5 Opti said:

Oct 6, 2021 13:18:34 GMT -5 Rukh O'Rorke said:

I wanted to address this before letting this go.

I think after the first screed or two, it was clear no self reflection or apology would be had. But there were other posters that kept defending that offending post. there was a separate thread dedicated to defending that post, and then many others who were like "I'm not addressing this", "I'm not dealing with this" - so there was a very clear need to discuss why that post was problematic - yes, the originator of the issue was not going to be enlightened or educated - but there was a lot more going on from a lot more posters that showed that this needed much more discussion and - yes - some kind of resolution. 

And then encouragement to just drop it and for Pink to "get over it"? so wrong! 

If everyone had just said - "sorry rigby, you're in the wrong here, that was not ok to say" and then did not reply to her elongated justifications, it would have been ok to move on.

Moving these posts to another, isolated thread for whatever resolution is to be had is also very problematic imo.

As mentioned, none of us are ever likely to convince a hard-core racist to embrace equality, but if we can't even step up to have the back of a POC in our community when they politely say - hey - that's not really ok to say, that marginalized me in this community - then when is anything ever going to be addressed by anyone? it's always going to be uncomfortable, it's always going to be inconvenient and not what anyone wants to be doing right now.

No just no. I created that other thread. I think Miss R's original post was already deleted so it couldn't even be referred to. So I think Andi had one interpretation, I remembered a different sentence from that post (and was addressing that) and eventually it turned out
both Later and Pink had saved the offending sentences as written. 

I know Pink was upset with people telling her to shut up. As not Pink, it was obvious to me that besides Miss R, it appeared to be just posters who wanted the fight/discussion moved out of that thread. Some did not want to get involved, some didn't like it interrupting the thread, and convention anyway has always been to move  to PM or start another thread. 

I did not get it. It had be put in a dumbed down version for me to understand the problem. Miss R would probably need a different dumbed down description. Miss R knew Later and the POC supporters would run her out on a rail. That probably clouded her judgment and her ability to make sense. IDK.

I used to copy and rewrite emails I received from my Minister. Often because I saw red. After hours passed I was able to point out you said this, made me think feel that, and perhaps here's an example how to do this better. After multiple times it did work. I think if someone had been able to realize not all of us come with a POV that understands this as offensive, that rewriting/reframing is necessary if you want someone to understand what you see & feel. 

So as a reimagining of what could have been posted and hopefully not offend. Here's an attempt.
My coworker has been telling me for weeks our workplace is the g word. Now, I think I get it. Per her, its gotten worse. She told me a newly hired coworker, which she says will stay hired, came to work drunk and carrying a gun. O. M. How will I deal with this?

What the Flying fuck?   I'm not sure how to even respond to this.

Okay I figured it out.   Words have meaning, words hurt.  If someone tells you "Hey what you said is not cool" they do not owe you an explaination or a "dumbed down version" of why it was offensive to soothe your fragile white ego.   The proper response is "I'm sorry, I made a mistake" and in this case delete your post.  Then go do the work of figuring out why what you said was screwed up and stop doing it.

Exhibit A your post right here where I highlighted it.  If you can't get why that is beyond messed up then you're the problem.

[finnime]

Oct 6, 2021 14:45:06 GMT -5 swamp said:

Oct 6, 2021 13:57:34 GMT -5 susana1954 said:

Rukh O'Rorke , I think some of us stayed out of this discussion because we have nothing of substance to contribute.  What was said was wrong.  I affirmed Pink's comments several times with the "like" button.  Nothing I said would have made any difference, and there was much potential to say it in such a way that it came out "wrong."  I have nothing but respect for Pink, and she expressed her position so eloquently.  I hope she knows that.

This was a discussion, not a show of hands.  


ETA:  This is a comment in response to the post before your LAST post.  It makes no sense after that post, but I'll let it stand.

I also hung back from the discuss because I wasn’t sure what to say. I love Miss R but she was way out of line.

I also love Pink, and also have mad respect for her.

I hate it when family fights. I also hate it when someone I really liked and respected went way out of bounds.

   Exactly.

[Deleted]

Oct 6, 2021 14:41:19 GMT -5 Opti said:

Oct 6, 2021 13:18:34 GMT -5 Rukh O'Rorke said:

I wanted to address this before letting this go.

I think after the first screed or two, it was clear no self reflection or apology would be had. But there were other posters that kept defending that offending post. there was a separate thread dedicated to defending that post, and then many others who were like "I'm not addressing this", "I'm not dealing with this" - so there was a very clear need to discuss why that post was problematic - yes, the originator of the issue was not going to be enlightened or educated - but there was a lot more going on from a lot more posters that showed that this needed much more discussion and - yes - some kind of resolution. 

And then encouragement to just drop it and for Pink to "get over it"? so wrong! 

If everyone had just said - "sorry rigby, you're in the wrong here, that was not ok to say" and then did not reply to her elongated justifications, it would have been ok to move on.

Moving these posts to another, isolated thread for whatever resolution is to be had is also very problematic imo.

As mentioned, none of us are ever likely to convince a hard-core racist to embrace equality, but if we can't even step up to have the back of a POC in our community when they politely say - hey - that's not really ok to say, that marginalized me in this community - then when is anything ever going to be addressed by anyone? it's always going to be uncomfortable, it's always going to be inconvenient and not what anyone wants to be doing right now.

No just no. I created that other thread. I think Miss R's original post was already deleted so it couldn't even be referred to. So I think Andi had one interpretation, I remembered a different sentence from that post (and was addressing that) and eventually it turned out
both Later and Pink had saved the offending sentences as written. 

I know Pink was upset with people telling her to shut up. As not Pink, it was obvious to me that besides Miss R, it appeared to be just posters who wanted the fight/discussion moved out of that thread. Some did not want to get involved, some didn't like it interrupting the thread, and convention anyway has always been to move  to PM or start another thread. 

I did not get it. It had be put in a dumbed down version for me to understand the problem. Miss R would probably need a different dumbed down description. Miss R knew Later and the POC supporters would run her out on a rail. That probably clouded her judgment and her ability to make sense. IDK.

I used to copy and rewrite emails I received from my Minister. Often because I saw red. After hours passed I was able to point out you said this, made me think feel that, and perhaps here's an example how to do this better. After multiple times it did work. I think if someone had been able to realize not all of us come with a POV that understands this as offensive, that rewriting/reframing is necessary if you want someone to understand what you see & feel. 

So as a reimagining of what could have been posted and hopefully not offend. Here's an attempt.
My coworker has been telling me for weeks our workplace is the g word. Now, I think I get it. Per her, its gotten worse. She told me a newly hired coworker, which she says will stay hired, came to work drunk and carrying a gun. O. M. How will I deal with this?

I appreciated that when I dug up the exact words for you to read, you backed up from thinking I’d just assumed something that was not actually said. I’m also glad that your “new” thread was what prompted me to go find it, so that everybody that was making assumptions about me and my reaction, like you were, could read the words again or for the first time, and decide for themselves what they thought about it.

I felt like once you got a clearer picture, you handled yourself with class and grace, and I couldn’t do anything but respect you for that.

You come off to me like you tend to try to be a “peacemaker” which I understand, because I play that role myself sometimes. But sometimes, you just can’t make a wrong be right or acceptable. It’s just wrong, and that’s all there is to it. Which is what I felt like you were trying to do yesterday by asking me to reframe my thinking, and what you said about the Home Depot asshole. And that is why I got irritated with you yesterday.

But I feel a little better today.

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

I'll go ahead and say that I say/write dumb shit all the time.  There are words my parents and grandparents used that I absorbed as a kid without the proper frame of reference.  Then along the way I've ignorantly managed to use them in conversation.

However when called out I did not sit there and defend myself.  I realized "oh shit I think that was bad" and stop using that phrase/word.   Doubling down and trying to justify that I didn't know better and it's my parents fault only serves to make it worse because I'm not "defending both sides" I am lashing out because my ego is damaged.   Then it gets put on the POC or whoever I offended to try to soothe me and reassure me that I was just being stupid and it's okay.

Which continues to perpetuate the system that tells me that MY voice and MY feelings are the most important in the room.  That until the room conforms to my white worldview I need to keep doubling down.

It costs me NOTHING to stop using a word.  The English language has thousands of them, go buy a Thesaurus and look up new ones.  

[minnesotapaintlady]

Oct 6, 2021 13:18:34 GMT -5 Rukh O'Rorke said:

Oct 5, 2021 9:58:44 GMT -5 minnesotapaintlady said:

I guess I'm just confused by the end goal of not letting it go.  Was it to force her through peer pressure to apologize?  How sincere is a forced apology anyhow?  Either you are sorry or you're not.

I wanted to address this before letting this go.

I think after the first screed or two, it was clear no self reflection or apology would be had. But there were other posters that kept defending that offending post. there was a separate thread dedicated to defending that post, and then many others who were like "I'm not addressing this", "I'm not dealing with this" - so there was a very clear need to discuss why that post was problematic - yes, the originator of the issue was not going to be enlightened or educated - but there was a lot more going on from a lot more posters that showed that this needed much more discussion and - yes - some kind of resolution. 

And then encouragement to just drop it and for Pink to "get over it"? so wrong! 

If everyone had just said - "sorry rigby, you're in the wrong here, that was not ok to say" and then did not reply to her elongated justifications, it would have been ok to move on.

Moving these posts to another, isolated thread for whatever resolution is to be had is also very problematic imo.

As mentioned, none of us are ever likely to convince a hard-core racist to embrace equality, but if we can't even step up to have the back of a POC in our community when they politely say - hey - that's not really ok to say, that marginalized me in this community - then when is anything ever going to be addressed by anyone? it's always going to be uncomfortable, it's always going to be inconvenient and not what anyone wants to be doing right now.

I wanted BOTH sides to stop.  My issue with the whole thing is fighting makes me really anxious.  It wasn't so much the content that was making me uncomfortable (and I apologize to Pink that that wasn't the case, because I suppose it should have) I would have wanted it to stop even if they were having a breast vs. bottle argument that was clearly not going anywhere.  This is also why I steer clear of the Politics board and don't hang out on Facebook.

How many regular posters are left on this board?  I don't even know, but definitely not 90% of them in that members list.  Not many.  It's a dying board, we're losing people all the time to them leaving or actually dying.  I just knew somebody was going to leave over this.  Just like Meili left over another sensitive topic argument.  So, I guess I need to apologize again, because I selfishly just want everyone to stay forever.

[minnesotapaintlady]

Oct 6, 2021 14:45:06 GMT -5 swamp said:

Oct 6, 2021 13:57:34 GMT -5 susana1954 said:

Rukh O'Rorke , I think some of us stayed out of this discussion because we have nothing of substance to contribute.  What was said was wrong.  I affirmed Pink's comments several times with the "like" button.  Nothing I said would have made any difference, and there was much potential to say it in such a way that it came out "wrong."  I have nothing but respect for Pink, and she expressed her position so eloquently.  I hope she knows that.

This was a discussion, not a show of hands.  


ETA:  This is a comment in response to the post before your LAST post.  It makes no sense after that post, but I'll let it stand.

I also hung back from the discuss because I wasn’t sure what to say. I love Miss R but she was way out of line.

I also love Pink, and also have mad respect for her.

I hate it when family fights. I also hate it when someone I really liked and respected went way out of bounds.

And apparently Swamp beat me to it.

[Deleted]

Oct 6, 2021 15:10:09 GMT -5 Opti said:

Oct 6, 2021 14:46:59 GMT -5 swamp said:

The POC supporters. You might as well have said “those people”.

Its not "those people". Its probably the majority of the vocal voices here. Its probably the majority of people here. 

I’m going to try to say this gently. 

Mister is what I tell him is “socially awkward”. When we first met, he would say something and I’d be like, did he really just say what I thought he said?! I tease him and call him Sheldon.

I don’t know how to say it, except to just go ahead and say it, I think you might be a little awkward too in some ways, and that’s why you keep getting the reactions you do, even when, in your mind, you mean well.

Just an observation. And if I offended you, I sincerely apologize and have no problem deleting this post.

[swasat]

Oct 6, 2021 15:10:09 GMT -5 Opti said:

Oct 6, 2021 14:46:59 GMT -5 swamp said:

The POC supporters. You might as well have said “those people”.

Its not "those people". Its probably the majority of the vocal voices here. Its probably the majority of people here. 

Do you even believe or read what you are saying??

“POC supporters”, “majority of the vocal voices here”…..

So you are not one of them. Right. There are people who are POC supporters and then there is the rest of the group :eyeroll:

Opti, just do us and yourself a favor and Stop.Trying.To.Explain to others the alternate definitions, the what-ifs and the buts…..

You just keeping a mess of it.

[laterbloomer]

Oct 6, 2021 13:18:34 GMT -5 Rukh O'Rorke said:

Oct 5, 2021 9:58:44 GMT -5 minnesotapaintlady said:

I guess I'm just confused by the end goal of not letting it go.  Was it to force her through peer pressure to apologize?  How sincere is a forced apology anyhow?  Either you are sorry or you're not.

I wanted to address this before letting this go.

I think after the first screed or two, it was clear no self reflection or apology would be had. But there were other posters that kept defending that offending post. there was a separate thread dedicated to defending that post, and then many others who were like "I'm not addressing this", "I'm not dealing with this" - so there was a very clear need to discuss why that post was problematic - yes, the originator of the issue was not going to be enlightened or educated - but there was a lot more going on from a lot more posters that showed that this needed much more discussion and - yes - some kind of resolution. 

And then encouragement to just drop it and for Pink to "get over it"? so wrong! 

If everyone had just said - "sorry rigby, you're in the wrong here, that was not ok to say" and then did not reply to her elongated justifications, it would have been ok to move on.

Moving these posts to another, isolated thread for whatever resolution is to be had is also very problematic imo.

As mentioned, none of us are ever likely to convince a hard-core racist to embrace equality, but if we can't even step up to have the back of a POC in our community when they politely say - hey - that's not really ok to say, that marginalized me in this community - then when is anything ever going to be addressed by anyone? it's always going to be uncomfortable, it's always going to be inconvenient and not what anyone wants to be doing right now.

Can I like this post 1,000,000% ❤❤❤

[swasat]

Oct 6, 2021 15:24:44 GMT -5 minnesotapaintlady said:

Oct 6, 2021 13:18:34 GMT -5 Rukh O'Rorke said:

I wanted to address this before letting this go.

I think after the first screed or two, it was clear no self reflection or apology would be had. But there were other posters that kept defending that offending post. there was a separate thread dedicated to defending that post, and then many others who were like "I'm not addressing this", "I'm not dealing with this" - so there was a very clear need to discuss why that post was problematic - yes, the originator of the issue was not going to be enlightened or educated - but there was a lot more going on from a lot more posters that showed that this needed much more discussion and - yes - some kind of resolution. 

And then encouragement to just drop it and for Pink to "get over it"? so wrong! 

If everyone had just said - "sorry rigby, you're in the wrong here, that was not ok to say" and then did not reply to her elongated justifications, it would have been ok to move on.

Moving these posts to another, isolated thread for whatever resolution is to be had is also very problematic imo.

As mentioned, none of us are ever likely to convince a hard-core racist to embrace equality, but if we can't even step up to have the back of a POC in our community when they politely say - hey - that's not really ok to say, that marginalized me in this community - then when is anything ever going to be addressed by anyone? it's always going to be uncomfortable, it's always going to be inconvenient and not what anyone wants to be doing right now.

I wanted BOTH sides to stop.  My issue with the whole thing is fighting makes me really anxious.  It wasn't so much the content that was making me uncomfortable (and I apologize to Pink that that wasn't the case, because I suppose it should have) I would have wanted it to stop even if they were having a breast vs. bottle argument that was clearly not going anywhere.

How many regular posters are left on this board?  I don't even know, but definitely not 90% of them in that members list.  Not many.  It's a dying board, we're losing people all the time to them leaving or actually dying.  I just knew somebody was going to leave over this.  Just like Meili left over another sensitive topic argument.  So, I guess I need to apologize again, because I selfishly just want everyone to stay forever.

Like andi already said before, this is the reason biases and victimization of POC perpetuates. Because people who are not directly impacted feel “uncomfortable” viewing or discussing the situation.

Being selfish is one thing. Being selfish at the cost of someone else’s respect or existence is quite another. THAT is totally unacceptable. THAT behavior is what needs to stop.

If you do not want to stand up, then don’t! You don’t get to tell others to not stand up for themselves or for others or their beliefs .

[gs11rmb]

Oct 6, 2021 15:28:32 GMT -5 @pinkcshmere said:

Oct 6, 2021 15:10:09 GMT -5 Opti said:

Its not "those people". Its probably the majority of the vocal voices here. Its probably the majority of people here. 

I’m going to try to say this gently. 

Mister is what I tell him is “socially awkward”. When we first met, he would say something and I’d be like, did he really just say what I thought he said?! I tease him and call him Sheldon.

I don’t know how to say it, except to just go ahead and say it, I think you might be a little awkward too in some ways, and that’s why you keep getting the reactions you do, even when, in your mind, you mean well.

Just an observation. And if I offended you, I sincerely apologize and have no problem deleting this post.

Once again, you handled this situation with grace.

[susana1954]

Oct 6, 2021 15:33:03 GMT -5 swasat said:

Oct 6, 2021 15:24:44 GMT -5 minnesotapaintlady said:

I wanted BOTH sides to stop.  My issue with the whole thing is fighting makes me really anxious.  It wasn't so much the content that was making me uncomfortable (and I apologize to Pink that that wasn't the case, because I suppose it should have) I would have wanted it to stop even if they were having a breast vs. bottle argument that was clearly not going anywhere.

How many regular posters are left on this board?  I don't even know, but definitely not 90% of them in that members list.  Not many.  It's a dying board, we're losing people all the time to them leaving or actually dying.  I just knew somebody was going to leave over this.  Just like Milee left over another sensitive topic argument.  So, I guess I need to apologize again, because I selfishly just want everyone to stay forever.

Like andi already said before, this is the reason biases and victimization of POC perpetuates. Because people who are not directly impacted feel “uncomfortable” viewing or discussing the situation.

Being selfish is one thing. Being selfish at the cost of someone else’s respect or existence is quite another. THAT is totally unacceptable. THAT behavior is what needs to stop.

If you do not want to stand up, then don’t! You don’t get to tell others to not stand up for themselves or for others or their beliefs .

And you just demonstrated why so many people stayed out of this argument.  minnesotapaintlady meant no harm but was rather explaining that all of this fighting makes her nervous.  And you pounced on her because her words came out "wrong" in your view.  Saying nothing would have kept her from becoming the latest target.

[swasat]

Oct 6, 2021 15:59:48 GMT -5 susana1954 said:

Oct 6, 2021 15:33:03 GMT -5 swasat said:

Like andi already said before, this is the reason biases and victimization of POC perpetuates. Because people who are not directly impacted feel “uncomfortable” viewing or discussing the situation.

Being selfish is one thing. Being selfish at the cost of someone else’s respect or existence is quite another. THAT is totally unacceptable. THAT behavior is what needs to stop.

If you do not want to stand up, then don’t! You don’t get to tell others to not stand up for themselves or for others or their beliefs .

And you just demonstrated why so many people stayed out of this argument.  minnesotapaintlady meant no harm but was rather explaining that all of this fighting makes her nervous.  And you pounced on her because her words came out "wrong" in your view.  Saying nothing would have kept her from becoming the latest target.

And now you are just twisting everything up, and joining dots and all that.

She explained her reasoning, and she accepted she was being selfish. Her words. Nothing “wrong” in my view or my reading of them.

I told her her selfishness, IN THIs CASE, was unwarranted. So construe it as you see fit.

[debthaven]

*SMH*

I adore you @pinkcshmere and I'm sorry about what you went/are going through because of "that person's" post, and all the subsequent fallout. Perhaps "that person" was just ignorant rather than racist. Lord knows we gave her PLENTY of opportunity to state that AND APOLOGIZE. But once she dug her heels in, her position became crystal clear. WE are all misinterpreting EVERYTHING, but she's in the clear (insert sarcasm here.)

Nidena asked, So, I ask my fellow Whitey MacPhersons just WHAT are you doing to bring about change? What HAVE you done now that you know this shit happens DAILY?

This is a very good and challenging question to me nidena . I know I try to get my students to address these issues in our classes. We discuss all these uncomfortable topics and I encourage (but obviously never force) them to address them, if they are interested. If they are, I help them, even after hours.

One of my best presentations ever was last year, on how the Black Lives Matter movement resounded around the world, in Europe, Asia and Australia. I was so happy and proud that they chose that subject! They did a fabulous job! 

My very close friend A from theater is black, married to a white guy. A is rich, he retired early, and he drives a fancy car. We have rented their summer place (which his husband owns) 4 or 5 times now. 

We're in France, not in the US. Yet sometimes the police wander over because they don't understand why this middle-aged black guy is driving a fancy convertible. The first time I saw that happen, I walked over. A shot me a death stare and motioned for me to go away. So I did (but I observed from a distance because I was terrified for him). Thank GD we don't have the same issue with police brutality here. 

It happened AGAIN a few nights later in a nearby town when we were all going out to dinner together (in two cars). The police stopped A ... because he'd driven around the block 2 or 3 times trying to find a parking spot. Because A is black and he drives a very expensive car. 

Yet some posters have the nerve to ask Pink to "reframe" her thoughts?! That's just plain shameful to me. 

I know I don't do enough.  

Also, I am Jewish, so I too am "hated" here. But my DH is not, so I have a totally goyish last name now. 

 

[Opti]

Oct 6, 2021 15:28:32 GMT -5 @pinkcshmere said:

Oct 6, 2021 15:10:09 GMT -5 Opti said:

Its not "those people". Its probably the majority of the vocal voices here. Its probably the majority of people here. 

I’m going to try to say this gently. 

Mister is what I tell him is “socially awkward”. When we first met, he would say something and I’d be like, did he really just say what I thought he said?! I tease him and call him Sheldon.

I don’t know how to say it, except to just go ahead and say it, I think you might be a little awkward too in some ways, and that’s why you keep getting the reactions you do, even when, in your mind, you mean well.

Just an observation. And if I offended you, I sincerely apologize and have no problem deleting this post.

You don't have to delete your post. I am Sheldon like.