discussion on "ghetto" - definition, connotation, usage

[laterbloomer]

Oct 6, 2021 16:27:29 GMT -5 Opti said:

Oct 6, 2021 15:28:32 GMT -5 @pinkcshmere said:

I’m going to try to say this gently. 

Mister is what I tell him is “socially awkward”. When we first met, he would say something and I’d be like, did he really just say what I thought he said?! I tease him and call him Sheldon.

I don’t know how to say it, except to just go ahead and say it, I think you might be a little awkward too in some ways, and that’s why you keep getting the reactions you do, even when, in your mind, you mean well.

Just an observation. And if I offended you, I sincerely apologize and have no problem deleting this post.

You don't have to delete your post. I am Sheldon like. 

Knowing that will make a difference to how I read you.

And sweetie, you don't know piling on on this board yet. I'll post a few more times and you'll see they are just gently teasing you.

[andi9899]

Oct 6, 2021 15:59:48 GMT -5 susana1954 said:

Oct 6, 2021 15:33:03 GMT -5 swasat said:

Like andi already said before, this is the reason biases and victimization of POC perpetuates. Because people who are not directly impacted feel “uncomfortable” viewing or discussing the situation.

Being selfish is one thing. Being selfish at the cost of someone else’s respect or existence is quite another. THAT is totally unacceptable. THAT behavior is what needs to stop.

If you do not want to stand up, then don’t! You don’t get to tell others to not stand up for themselves or for others or their beliefs .

And you just demonstrated why so many people stayed out of this argument.  minnesotapaintlady meant no harm but was rather explaining that all of this fighting makes her nervous.  And you pounced on her because her words came out "wrong" in your view.  Saying nothing would have kept her from becoming the latest target.

So then are you saying that MPL's feelings are more important than mine and Pink's? Why because she's white?

[raeoflyte]

Oct 6, 2021 16:55:32 GMT -5 andi9899 said:

Oct 6, 2021 15:59:48 GMT -5 susana1954 said:

And you just demonstrated why so many people stayed out of this argument.  minnesotapaintlady meant no harm but was rather explaining that all of this fighting makes her nervous.  And you pounced on her because her words came out "wrong" in your view.  Saying nothing would have kept her from becoming the latest target.

So then are you saying that MPL's feelings are more important than mine and Pink's? Why because she's white?

I am 100% not intentionally being an asshole or trying to start shit, but I think that was proven true when the conversation was moved out of the stream of consciousness thread for being too distracting.

[minnesotapaintlady]

I NEVER asked for the thread to be moved.  I just looked back and guess what?  That was MJ.  What color is she again?  

eta:  Although I will admit, I was glad it was.  

[chiver78]

whoa, WHOA. *I* moved the thread, on my own, without input to anyone's specific request for it. please do not create new targets...

-chiver mod

[raeoflyte]

Oct 6, 2021 17:14:38 GMT -5 minnesotapaintlady said:

I NEVER asked for the thread to be moved.  I just looked back and guess what?  That was MJ.  What color is she again?  

eta:  Although I will admit, I was glad it was.  

And I wasn't referring to you, or anyone in particular. I can see starting new threads when something has veered off topic, but that is the off topic thread. It was just too uncomfortable of a conversation to leave in a public space.

[andi9899]

Oct 6, 2021 17:18:26 GMT -5 chiver78 said:

whoa, WHOA. *I* moved the thread, on my own, without input to anyone's specific request for it. please do not create new targets...

-chiver mod

I didn't see it as creating a new target since she wasn't referring to MPL. Rather she was saying that it got moved from the other thread so the white people weren't uncomfortable. IMO people should have to feel uncomfortable at times. Change is uncomfortable. Ignoring the issue or turning away when it becomes uncomfortable just allows it to continue.

[chiver78]

Oct 6, 2021 17:42:39 GMT -5 andi9899 said:

Oct 6, 2021 17:18:26 GMT -5 chiver78 said:

whoa, WHOA. *I* moved the thread, on my own, without input to anyone's specific request for it. please do not create new targets...

-chiver mod

I didn't see it as creating a new target since she wasn't referring to MPL. Rather she was saying that it got moved from the other thread so the white people weren't uncomfortable. IMO people should have to feel uncomfortable at times. Change is uncomfortable. Ignoring the issue or turning away when it becomes uncomfortable just allows it to continue.

I didn't read it that way, either. MPL mentioned another poster. enough people are annoyed with me for having created this thread, just keep piling it on me. seriously. 

[debthaven]

I'll pile it on chiver78 ... you did well!!! Because you allowed the discussion to continue for those who are interested in continuing the discussion.

[chiver78]

thanks, and sorry, I'm a lot jumpy about this. my inbox has been the place to be today, for good and bad. 

I'll just step back again now. keep talking, and listening. this thread has been mostly positive to me. people seem to be listening.

[Tiny]

Oct 6, 2021 14:32:31 GMT -5 nidena said:

So, I ask my fellow Whitey MacPhersons just WHAT are you doing to bring about change?  What HAVE you done now that you know this shit happens DAILY?

Oh man, I am guilty of saying stuff OR not saying something when I should have. I blame my blunders on the auto pilot "scripts" in my head. The "scripts" work great when everyone is all the same with the same expectations (or the same "script"/expectations in their head).

Kind of like how at a wake/funeral saying "your loved one is in a better place" MIGHT be an acceptable thing to say to those who are grieving - because it's the accepted script. But that is so NOT a good script to use when you are NOT in that place. But how do you "know" this if the script has always been acceptable in the past? You might not intend to say hurtful stuff - but it just comes out because that is what was acceptable.

So, what I am trying to do in my White McWhitey world is to re-write some of the scripts in my head and to add new ones. To try to be aware of when I'm falling back on a not very good auto pilot script or notion and then try to not blunder into saying something stupid. And I'm trying to change the way I respond when I do blunder into saying something stupid if I realize it or when I'm called on it. I don't need to defend my position - I say I'm sorry.

I think Whitey McWhitiey's need to be aware of the words they use with other Whitey McWhiteys* 
 
We all bring our expectations (and scripts) to every meeting with a person we know or that we are just meeting. That's where change begins.

*I called out my nephew when he started whinging about lazy POCs at his job  and how they don't have to work as hard to have more than he has to (yeah right).   I stopped cold and asked if he thought that about his Brother in Law and his not lily white neice and nephew - were they lazy and getting it easy at work and school?    He looked at me with a suprised/shocked face and backtracked really fast.     Maybe the POCs at work weren't lazy or getting special treatment  maybe there was some other reason they had better jobs and more pay than he did (he had just started and  was doing an entry level job - with a career path up - if he chose to follow it.) 

[susana1954]

Oct 6, 2021 16:55:32 GMT -5 andi9899 said:

Oct 6, 2021 15:59:48 GMT -5 susana1954 said:

And you just demonstrated why so many people stayed out of this argument.  minnesotapaintlady meant no harm but was rather explaining that all of this fighting makes her nervous.  And you pounced on her because her words came out "wrong" in your view.  Saying nothing would have kept her from becoming the latest target.

So then are you saying that MPL's feelings are more important than mine and Pink's? Why because she's white?

I wasn't comparing anyone's feelings.  I simply said that this illustrates why some of us keep our mouths shut.  Because this doesn't add anything to the discussion except to try to redirect my comment in order to make me out to be a racist.  Sorry, but I'll pass on that role.  

[seriousthistime]

It's not easy because we can all trip up and say the wrong thing.  But when we do say the wrong thing and we are called out on it, we should say we didn't realize, it wasn't intended the way it sounded, and we are big-time sorry.  Because if we endlessly rewrite the script in our head to make it perfect before we say something, we will say nothing. 

What am I doing to bring about change? That's a very good question.  I try to see people as people and not as colors or ethnicities.  But sometimes I have a bad day, because we all have bad days, and maybe I was disgruntled with what someone did and it had nothing to do with race or ethnicity, I just didn't like what they did.*  I would hate for a POC in that situation to think I was racist.  I don't know how we get past that. 

But seeing people as people and not as colors or ethnicities is not going to fix everything.  It is not enough to get us where we need to go. 

Just thinking out loud here and I may be completely off base.

It is kind of like climate change.  What can I -- one person -- do that will change things? Sure, I can become more energy conscious myself.  I could buy an electric or hybrid car.  Is it enough that I just drive very few miles in my gas-powered car and probably put less carbon into the atmosphere than the person who is driving more miles in a hybrid? Or not run my clothes dryer between the hours of 4 and 9 pm?  Not eat meat from hooved animals because they put so much methane into the air?  The consensus is that BIG things in industry need to change to reduce global warming, and the rest is just the rest of us tinkering around the edges. 

And as far as police shootings go, I am convinced that there are so many (not all, but a lot of) police shootings because there are so many guns in this country, police budgets are cut, and when there's a dangerous situation to which the police respond, there is insufficient backup.  And then the officer's gun becomes his or her backup.  Or when someone is pulled over and a sudden move is made, or when someone is having a mental health crisis, their go-to mode is to shoot first and ask questions later. Certainly, that doesn't explain a lot of police shootings, but it explains some of them.  What do we, as individuals, do to stop the number of guns in this country? (This goes to debthaven's comment about police interaction with POC.  Fewer guns walking around among civilians in France may have something to do with it.) And school shootings.  There was another one today.  Things have changed so much that we have come to see news about another mass shooting as just another news story. Mass shootings at gay bars.  Temples.  Churches.  Grocery stores. 

These are just some of the big questions we need to deal with.  Sometimes they keep me up at night.  I wonder what is considered doing "something" or "enough" on an individual level about the big problems we face in this country. 

* For example, the people who live behind me have three little dogs.  I have a 50 pound Lab mix.  She is pretty gentle but will growl and then snap if another dog comes up to her face. The people with three little dogs are POC.  One day my dog (on her leash) rounded a corner at the park and the three little dogs (off leash) started to come up to her.  The owners were apologetic. There is a leash law here, and it's crazy to be walking little dogs at any time of the day or night because we live in coyote land. My dog and I turned around and went back where we came from, and I said nothing, did not acknowledge their apology, but I was plainly pissed. They may have interpreted that as racist.  Every time I have seen them out with their little dogs I've made small talk about the weather or the cute little skirts their dogs wear.  I treated them that day as I would have treated anyone else.  Was that enough? 

I apologize in advance and stand willing to be called out here. 





 

[laterbloomer]

Oct 6, 2021 15:59:48 GMT -5 susana1954 said:

Oct 6, 2021 15:33:03 GMT -5 swasat said:

Like andi already said before, this is the reason biases and victimization of POC perpetuates. Because people who are not directly impacted feel “uncomfortable” viewing or discussing the situation.

Being selfish is one thing. Being selfish at the cost of someone else’s respect or existence is quite another. THAT is totally unacceptable. THAT behavior is what needs to stop.

If you do not want to stand up, then don’t! You don’t get to tell others to not stand up for themselves or for others or their beliefs .

And you just demonstrated why so many people stayed out of this argument.  minnesotapaintlady meant no harm but was rather explaining that all of this fighting makes her nervous.  And you pounced on her because her words came out "wrong" in your view.  Saying nothing would have kept her from becoming the latest target.

mpl's words did not come out wrong. She was honest, kudos to her for that. And swasat explained what was wrong with prioritizing her discomfort with conflict over stopping all of these microaggressions POC have to tolerate. I'm hoping mpl hears the explanation and decides next time addressing the racism is more important than her discomfort.

I can't imagine having to deal with all the casual racism and disrespect POC get thrown at them. There is the sting from the person that actually says it, and then the added disappointment of having your supposed friends sit there and let it be done to you and top that off with being told not to make a scene when you confront it. Letting them tell me how angry they are about that, in an angry voice, is a small thing I can do to use my privilege to be an ally.

[raeoflyte]

Oct 6, 2021 20:27:36 GMT -5 seriousthistime said:

It's not easy because we can all trip up and say the wrong thing.  But when we do say the wrong thing and we are called out on it, we should say we didn't realize, it wasn't intended the way it sounded, and we are big-time sorry.  Because if we endlessly rewrite the script in our head to make it perfect before we say something, we will say nothing. 

What am I doing to bring about change? That's a very good question.  I try to see people as people and not as colors or ethnicities.  But sometimes I have a bad day, because we all have bad days, and maybe I was disgruntled with what someone did and it had nothing to do with race or ethnicity, I just didn't like what they did.*  I would hate for a POC in that situation to think I was racist.  I don't know how we get past that. 

But seeing people as people and not as colors or ethnicities is not going to fix everything.  It is not enough to get us where we need to go. 

Just thinking out loud here and I may be completely off base.

It is kind of like climate change.  What can I -- one person -- do that will change things? Sure, I can become more energy conscious myself.  I could buy an electric or hybrid car.  Is it enough that I just drive very few miles in my gas-powered car and probably put less carbon into the atmosphere than the person who is driving more miles in a hybrid? Or not run my clothes dryer between the hours of 4 and 9 pm?  Not eat meat from hooved animals because they put so much methane into the air?  The consensus is that BIG things in industry need to change to reduce global warming, and the rest is just the rest of us tinkering around the edges. 

And as far as police shootings go, I am convinced that there are so many (not all, but a lot of) police shootings because there are so many guns in this country, police budgets are cut, and when there's a dangerous situation to which the police respond, there is insufficient backup.  And then the officer's gun becomes his or her backup.  Or when someone is pulled over and a sudden move is made, or when someone is having a mental health crisis, their go-to mode is to shoot first and ask questions later. Certainly, that doesn't explain a lot of police shootings, but it explains some of them.  What do we, as individuals, do to stop the number of guns in this country? (This goes to debthaven's comment about police interaction with POC.  Fewer guns walking around among civilians in France may have something to do with it.) And school shootings.  There was another one today.  Things have changed so much that we have come to see news about another mass shooting as just another news story. Mass shootings at gay bars.  Temples.  Churches.  Grocery stores. 

These are just some of the big questions we need to deal with.  Sometimes they keep me up at night.  I wonder what is considered doing "something" or "enough" on an individual level about the big problems we face in this country. 

* For example, the people who live behind me have three little dogs.  I have a 50 pound Lab mix.  She is pretty gentle but will growl and then snap if another dog comes up to her face. The people with three little dogs are POC.  One day my dog (on her leash) rounded a corner at the park and the three little dogs (off leash) started to come up to her.  The owners were apologetic. There is a leash law here, and it's crazy to be walking little dogs at any time of the day or night because we live in coyote land. My dog and I turned around and went back where we came from, and I said nothing, did not acknowledge their apology, but I was plainly pissed. They may have interpreted that as racist.  Every time I have seen them out with their little dogs I've made small talk about the weather or the cute little skirts their dogs wear.  I treated them that day as I would have treated anyone else.  Was that enough? 

I apologize in advance and stand willing to be called out here. 





 

I have taken the opposite approach. I was raised with the idea we were supposed to be colorblind, and lived in a predominantly white area. I was shocked the first time I heard a black friend talk about how racism affected her. I don't think I was unbelieving, but it was hard to believe because I was raised to believe that was all in the past. We don't see color. One of the first articles I remember reading about racism was something about what I need white parents to teach their kids about being friends with my black son. And point 1, was about seeing race, seeing color, accepting that black kids are treated differently by teachers and police. Both of my kids have or had a bff of color and we talk a lot about watching for those differences and that if theyre doing something they shouldn't they can't leave their friend high and dry if they might get caught. To talk to us, and to tell us if they see us treating friends differently.

fitchburgstate.libguides.com/c.php?g=1046516&p=7616506




I think I found the original article, but I can't open it. Skimming this has similar info: www.cbc.ca/parents/

Basically that being color blind is a privilege of being white.

[swamp]

Oct 6, 2021 20:29:03 GMT -5 laterbloomer said:

Oct 6, 2021 15:59:48 GMT -5 susana1954 said:

And you just demonstrated why so many people stayed out of this argument.  minnesotapaintlady meant no harm but was rather explaining that all of this fighting makes her nervous.  And you pounced on her because her words came out "wrong" in your view.  Saying nothing would have kept her from becoming the latest target.

mpl's words did not come out wrong. She was honest, kudos to her for that. And swasat explained what was wrong with prioritizing her discomfort with conflict over stopping all of these microaggressions POC have to tolerate. I'm hoping mpl hears the explanation and decides next time addressing the racism is more important than her discomfort.

I can't imagine having to deal with all the casual racism and disrespect POC get thrown at them. There is the sting from the person that actually says it, and then the added disappointment of having your supposed friends sit there and let it be done to you and top that off with being told not to make a scene when you confront it. Letting them tell me how angry they are about that, in an angry voice, is a small thing I can do to use my privilege to be an ally.

I may be attributing my feelings to MPL, but I was, and maybe MPL was, more upset with the fighting among friends than the subject matter.  

However It’s a subject that should be discussed.  And sometimes certain comments need to be called out. 

[andi9899]

Oct 6, 2021 20:04:15 GMT -5 susana1954 said:

Oct 6, 2021 16:55:32 GMT -5 andi9899 said:

So then are you saying that MPL's feelings are more important than mine and Pink's? Why because she's white?

I wasn't comparing anyone's feelings.  I simply said that this illustrates why some of us keep our mouths shut.  Because this doesn't add anything to the discussion except to try to redirect my comment in order to make me out to be a racist.  Sorry, but I'll pass on that role.  

Then you should continue to keep your mouth shut. It's not the job of POC to not stand up for themselves to make white people comfortable.

[Knee Deep in Water Chloe]

I've been, as I've mentioned many times, working a minimum of ten hours per weekday for the last two months. Please know that I'm not avoiding this thread for any other reason than that. It could be interpreted that I'm just dabbing my toe here and there to avoid conflict. I promise that's not the case. 


I do want to second what raeoflyte just said about being raised colorblind. 
That is exactly how I was raised, and rae and I are about two years apart in age (I'm pretty sure.)
It is literally in the last three to five years that I've discovered that colorblindness is actually a horrible thing. 

[Knee Deep in Water Chloe]

Oct 5, 2021 19:37:04 GMT -5 @pinkcshmere said:

Oct 5, 2021 19:21:04 GMT -5 @pinkcshmere said:

Well, where I live, it’s n$@@#- rigged. No lie.

And just having typed that makes me think about how much shit I’ve been resigned to accept rather than constantly fight over shit.

I’m not sure what exactly “jerry rigged” means, but the term I shared refers to making some shit work (a car, machine, whatever) without actually fixing the real problem. 

I'm seriously sitting here wide-eyed aghast. I have never heard that term. I absolutely believe you, please don't question that. I as raised in such a naive way that it's just shocking to me how much racism there really is. My bewilderment and bias blocks me from being better even though I believe I've begun. 

[Knee Deep in Water Chloe]

Oct 6, 2021 15:53:14 GMT -5 Opti said:

Oct 6, 2021 15:08:16 GMT -5 @pinkcshmere said:

I appreciated that when I dug up the exact words for you to read, you backed up from thinking I’d just assumed something that was not actually said. I’m also glad that your “new” thread was what prompted me to go find it, so that everybody that was making assumptions about me and my reaction, like you were, could read the words again or for the first time, and decide for themselves what they thought about it.

I felt like once you got a clearer picture, you handled yourself with class and grace, and I couldn’t do anything but respect you for that.

You come off to me like you tend to try to be a “peacemaker” which I understand, because I play that role myself sometimes. But sometimes, you just can’t make a wrong be right or acceptable. It’s just wrong, and that’s all there is to it. Which is what I felt like you were trying to do yesterday by asking me to reframe my thinking, and what you said about the Home Depot asshole. And that is why I got irritated with you yesterday.

But I feel a little better today.

TY. I do not feel better today.

This whole mess has triggered me into remembering the daily torture at work by emotional Karens. There was really no support in addressing it. They were the customers/family members. I was the receptionist. It was hell. I cried thinking about it yesterday afternoon and I am crying about it now. 

But I appreciate you for trying to understand me. 

What is it you're crying about? That you're participating in a difficult, adult conversation? That' you're being asked to grow as an individual? 
I've cried too when I got called out for something that I did that absolutely did not occur to me was slighting POC. (I actually brought it up in a thread here a few months ago.) But, the reality is I cried because I was embarrassed, because I was called out in public, and because I didn't know how to respond in a mature way. 

You're sticking with this conversation and I think that's great. However the reality is, you're the one (other than our beloved Miss Rigby) who needs to realize that it's your perspective that is causing/contributing to the problem. I'm not going to pretend otherwise. 

[Knee Deep in Water Chloe]

Oct 6, 2021 16:14:02 GMT -5 Opti said:

Oct 6, 2021 15:28:49 GMT -5 swasat said:

Do you even believe or read what you are saying??

“POC supporters”, “majority of the vocal voices here”…..

So you are not one of them. Right. There are people who are POC supporters and then there is the rest of the group :eyeroll:

Opti , just do us and yourself a favor and Stop.Trying.To.Explain to others the alternate definitions, the what-ifs and the buts…..

You just keeping a mess of it.

Dear Lord, do you need to continue the pile on? Stop trying to abuse me, TY.
I think your post is unnecessarily awful and cruel.

You are doing a great job of encouraging me to not try to understand in the future.  
At least my ineptness wasn't personal. 

This entire thread is about discussing this specific situation, how it's a microcosm of our society, and how we can each grow from it. It's not about "piling on". 

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

If you are not forced to get uncomfortable with your world view from time to time then how do you grow as a person?

[Cookies Galore]

Oct 6, 2021 21:56:06 GMT -5 Knee Deep in Water Chloe said:

Oct 6, 2021 15:53:14 GMT -5 Opti said:

TY. I do not feel better today.

This whole mess has triggered me into remembering the daily torture at work by emotional Karens. There was really no support in addressing it. They were the customers/family members. I was the receptionist. It was hell. I cried thinking about it yesterday afternoon and I am crying about it now. 

But I appreciate you for trying to understand me. 

What is it you're crying about? That you're participating in a difficult, adult conversation? That' you're being asked to grow as an individual? 
I've cried too when I got called out for something that I did that absolutely did not occur to me was slighting POC. (I actually brought it up in a thread here a few months ago.) But, the reality is I cried because I was embarrassed, because I was called out in public, and because I didn't know how to respond in a mature way. 

You're sticking with this conversation and I think that's great. However the reality is, you're the one (other than our beloved Miss Rigby) who needs to realize that it's your perspective that is causing/contributing to the problem. I'm not going to pretend otherwise. 

You're all being way nicer than I would be (and reason #1 why I am barely participating) because all I am seeing is weaponized white tears.

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

Oct 7, 2021 8:01:48 GMT -5 Cookies Galore said:

Oct 6, 2021 21:56:06 GMT -5 Knee Deep in Water Chloe said:

What is it you're crying about? That you're participating in a difficult, adult conversation? That' you're being asked to grow as an individual? 
I've cried too when I got called out for something that I did that absolutely did not occur to me was slighting POC. (I actually brought it up in a thread here a few months ago.) But, the reality is I cried because I was embarrassed, because I was called out in public, and because I didn't know how to respond in a mature way. 

You're sticking with this conversation and I think that's great. However the reality is, you're the one (other than our beloved Miss Rigby) who needs to realize that it's your perspective that is causing/contributing to the problem. I'm not going to pretend otherwise. 

You're all being way nicer than I would be (and reason #1 why I am barely participating) because all I am seeing is weaponized white tears.

That's another topic the books I read covered the weaponizing of white tears, especially white women's tears and how dangerous a weapon it can be.   That was a really illuminating read. 

Especially since it came on the heels of my grandmother telling me about when she was dating my grandfather in North Carolina.  When she was walking down the street with my grandfather a black man was approaching from the other way.  When he saw her he leapt off the road and stood in a puddle till they left.   Grandma just couldn't understand why he did that.

Really grandma?  You really don't know?

[andi9899]

[lurkyloo]

Lots of emotional heavy lifting going on in this thread.

I can understand why people wanted it moved out of the standard chat thread-not everyone has the time and attention to devote to unexpected emotional work with their morning coffee klatsch.  But I can’t really condone it, because it’s not like POC get a pass or get to reschedule dealing with casual racism.  (Not trying to jump on chiver78 or anyone else for moving it, just wanting to point out the inherent unfairness.). Conscious or not, the kinds of defensive rants we heard are actually a manipulation tactic, designed to make people too uncomfortable to keep arguing.  I certainly didn’t read them as closely as I might have 

Similarly, I get why people are deeply uncomfortable with saying anything...far easier to say nothing or support passively.  But as eloquent and gracious as Pink is, it is not. fair. to put this all on her to call out.  It’s the lean out principle.  POC are already dealing with too much, and it behooves those of us who are not being directly targeted to do more of the heavy lifting.

Thank you to laterbloomer and raeoflyte for saying something and helping push me off the fence, and andi9899 for clarifying that with or without the word ghetto the sentiment was still problematic. Pink, sorry I didn’t tag you properly but I keep screwing up which vowel to leave out 

[swasat]

I was talking to DH about this thread and discussion last night and he shared a personal experience. I thought I'd share here, just as a reminder of how ingrained racism is in our society, just how much do POC get it during their daily life for the smallest of things. 

DH's best friend is first generation Indian American. Born and brought up here, his parents moved to the US in the 70s as scientists for the Ford Motor company. They have been best buddies since HS and thich even today. This guy was the best man at out wedding so many moons ago. 

So DH told me yesterday that at the time of our wedding his paternal grandma threw a fit when she heard who the best man is. Her reasoning? "That BROWN boy is not going to look good in a tuxedo at altar, and ruin the whole show". Yep, thats right....stupid wedding photos and stupid tuxedo and the whole charade was way more important than the bond that the groom shared with his best man. My MIL (bless her!) blew a gasket on hearing this! She told grandma that THAT brown boy is like a son to her, and if she has to make a choice between her son and her MIL, she will run roughshod over her MIL and choose her son every single time! SO suck it old lady!

Next phase of the drama happened, when grandma directly approached Manu (the Indian American friend) and asked him to "re-consider" his role, because obviously he would not want to ruin his best friend's wedding and create family drama. Right? Right!?! She told him that he obviously understands he is different and therefore must understand why she is asking this of him. Well, bless Manu's heart, he stood his ground, gave her a good dressing down and basically told her to go smoke her pipe because unless DH asked him, there was no way he was not standing up for his best friend. 

To this date, because of above, DH has a pretty cold and bare bones relationship with his grandma. 

All the above to say, a lot of us hurt POC regularly, for smallest of things, sometimes knowingly, sometimes unknowingly. Its not on the POC to "educate" us on our follies. Its on US to realize what we are doing wrong and then correct the behavior. 

[seriousthistime]

Oct 6, 2021 21:02:33 GMT -5 raeoflyte said:

Oct 6, 2021 20:27:36 GMT -5 seriousthistime said:

It's not easy because we can all trip up and say the wrong thing.  But when we do say the wrong thing and we are called out on it, we should say we didn't realize, it wasn't intended the way it sounded, and we are big-time sorry.  Because if we endlessly rewrite the script in our head to make it perfect before we say something, we will say nothing. 

What am I doing to bring about change? That's a very good question.  I try to see people as people and not as colors or ethnicities.  But sometimes I have a bad day, because we all have bad days, and maybe I was disgruntled with what someone did and it had nothing to do with race or ethnicity, I just didn't like what they did.*  I would hate for a POC in that situation to think I was racist.  I don't know how we get past that. 

But seeing people as people and not as colors or ethnicities is not going to fix everything.  It is not enough to get us where we need to go. 

Just thinking out loud here and I may be completely off base.

It is kind of like climate change.  What can I -- one person -- do that will change things? Sure, I can become more energy conscious myself.  I could buy an electric or hybrid car.  Is it enough that I just drive very few miles in my gas-powered car and probably put less carbon into the atmosphere than the person who is driving more miles in a hybrid? Or not run my clothes dryer between the hours of 4 and 9 pm?  Not eat meat from hooved animals because they put so much methane into the air?  The consensus is that BIG things in industry need to change to reduce global warming, and the rest is just the rest of us tinkering around the edges. 

And as far as police shootings go, I am convinced that there are so many (not all, but a lot of) police shootings because there are so many guns in this country, police budgets are cut, and when there's a dangerous situation to which the police respond, there is insufficient backup.  And then the officer's gun becomes his or her backup.  Or when someone is pulled over and a sudden move is made, or when someone is having a mental health crisis, their go-to mode is to shoot first and ask questions later. Certainly, that doesn't explain a lot of police shootings, but it explains some of them.  What do we, as individuals, do to stop the number of guns in this country? (This goes to debthaven 's comment about police interaction with POC.  Fewer guns walking around among civilians in France may have something to do with it.) And school shootings.  There was another one today.  Things have changed so much that we have come to see news about another mass shooting as just another news story. Mass shootings at gay bars.  Temples.  Churches.  Grocery stores. 

These are just some of the big questions we need to deal with.  Sometimes they keep me up at night.  I wonder what is considered doing "something" or "enough" on an individual level about the big problems we face in this country. 

* For example, the people who live behind me have three little dogs.  I have a 50 pound Lab mix.  She is pretty gentle but will growl and then snap if another dog comes up to her face. The people with three little dogs are POC.  One day my dog (on her leash) rounded a corner at the park and the three little dogs (off leash) started to come up to her.  The owners were apologetic. There is a leash law here, and it's crazy to be walking little dogs at any time of the day or night because we live in coyote land. My dog and I turned around and went back where we came from, and I said nothing, did not acknowledge their apology, but I was plainly pissed. They may have interpreted that as racist.  Every time I have seen them out with their little dogs I've made small talk about the weather or the cute little skirts their dogs wear.  I treated them that day as I would have treated anyone else.  Was that enough? 

I apologize in advance and stand willing to be called out here. 





 

I have taken the opposite approach. I was raised with the idea we were supposed to be colorblind, and lived in a predominantly white area. I was shocked the first time I heard a black friend talk about how racism affected her. I don't think I was unbelieving, but it was hard to believe because I was raised to believe that was all in the past. We don't see color. One of the first articles I remember reading about racism was something about what I need white parents to teach their kids about being friends with my black son. And point 1, was about seeing race, seeing color, accepting that black kids are treated differently by teachers and police. Both of my kids have or had a bff of color and we talk a lot about watching for those differences and that if theyre doing something they shouldn't they can't leave their friend high and dry if they might get caught. To talk to us, and to tell us if they see us treating friends differently.

fitchburgstate.libguides.com/c.php?g=1046516&p=7616506




I think I found the original article, but I can't open it. Skimming this has similar info: www.cbc.ca/parents/

Basically that being color blind is a privilege of being white.

Okay, but my kids are out on their own now.  My daughter (starting in the late 1980s) was BFFs with our next door neighbor who is African American.  Each of my grandchildren will have biracial cousins.  There is no more teaching to be done on my part. 

I was not raised to be colorblind. I am a child of the 1950s.  My mother was a child of the 1920s.  I grew up in a white suburb where the only black family in town was educated and they blended in.  The father was a high school teacher.  In the late 1960s, their son was a star football player.  There was an element of colorblindness to the whole thing, but somehow we felt they were different from the blacks in the inner cities. My mother did not encourage active racism, but she perpetuated the stereotypes.  So we harbored stereotypes about black people.  As we grew, we learned to be better. 

The question is, what can I, a retired adult living in a diverse southwestern community, do to bring about change?  I am open to ideas. 

[raeoflyte]

Oct 7, 2021 9:32:23 GMT -5 seriousthistime said:

Oct 6, 2021 21:02:33 GMT -5 raeoflyte said:

I have taken the opposite approach. I was raised with the idea we were supposed to be colorblind, and lived in a predominantly white area. I was shocked the first time I heard a black friend talk about how racism affected her. I don't think I was unbelieving, but it was hard to believe because I was raised to believe that was all in the past. We don't see color. One of the first articles I remember reading about racism was something about what I need white parents to teach their kids about being friends with my black son. And point 1, was about seeing race, seeing color, accepting that black kids are treated differently by teachers and police. Both of my kids have or had a bff of color and we talk a lot about watching for those differences and that if theyre doing something they shouldn't they can't leave their friend high and dry if they might get caught. To talk to us, and to tell us if they see us treating friends differently.

fitchburgstate.libguides.com/c.php?g=1046516&p=7616506




I think I found the original article, but I can't open it. Skimming this has similar info: www.cbc.ca/parents/

Basically that being color blind is a privilege of being white.

Okay, but my kids are out on their own now.  My daughter (starting in the late 1980s) was BFFs with our next door neighbor who is African American.  Each of my grandchildren will have biracial cousins.  There is no more teaching to be done on my part. 

I was not raised to be colorblind. I am a child of the 1950s.  My mother was a child of the 1920s.  I grew up in a white suburb where the only black family in town was educated and they blended in.  The father was a high school teacher.  In the late 1960s, their son was a star football player.  There was an element of colorblindness to the whole thing, but somehow we felt they were different from the blacks in the inner cities. My mother did not encourage active racism, but she perpetuated the stereotypes.  So we harbored stereotypes about black people.  As we grew, we learned to be better. 

The question is, what can I, a retired adult living in a diverse southwestern community, do to bring about change?  I am open to ideas. 

You said you wanted to not see race or ethnicities and I shared why I don't think that's a good approach to change.

[seriousthistime]

Thank you, raeoflyte.  I appreciate your insight and your approach.