discussion on "ghetto" - definition, connotation, usage

[seriousthistime]

www.cityofarcata.org/DocumentCenter/View/5501/RACISM-What-I-Can-Do

Here's a starter for a discussion.  Comments? 

[lurkyloo]

It’s a fair question.  A lot of people were at best raised with the color blind approach, bc that was widely accepted to be the best practice at the time.  So approaches to layering on, with that as a starting point, would be valuable.

I generally figure it’s important to treat people as if you’re colorblind, but keep the awareness at hand and back off/give extra allowances/speak up as necessary.  Also, consider your words and take it seriously if you’re told some actions or words of yours are problematic.  But those are mostly passive things.  Would love to hear other POV.

[Tiny]

It's not easy because we can all trip up and say the wrong thing. But when we do say the wrong thing and we are called out on it, we should say we didn't realize, it wasn't intended the way it sounded, and we are big-time sorry. Because if we endlessly rewrite the script in our head to make it perfect before we say something, we will say nothing.

It's more of a "remove" the old words and replacing it with something more appropriate.

I think I mentioned my nephew "blaming" the brown and black people who are higher in seniority and education level than he is for being lazy and getting special treatment because they are POC for why he as a newbie (hired into an entry level position) was doing "grunt work" at work. (he's in IT working with a local employer who has several offices locally and so there is alot of 'grunt work' going from office to office to keep things running and to keep workers with working tech.).

Maybe my nephew should just "own" that he's a newbie doing "grunt work" and that this will eventually lead to either climbing the ladder at his current employer OR a better "not entry level" job at another employer - rather than needing to "blame" someone else for why he's doing "grunt work".

That's all about a "script in one's head" -- I'm doing something beneath me - because someone who I think "is less than me" says I have to do it. That's a script that needs to be rewritten.

OK, maybe he was just parroting back to me - what is the acceptable "response" with in his circle of friends....   and again... it's another reason why that script needs to change.   He's not being "held back" because the brown and black people at work are getting special treatment.  He's got less than a year at an entry level job.     I'm guessing he won't be able to move up at work until someone above him quits.  So, I'm guessing this job will be a stepping stone to a better paying/more responsibility job at another employer.   If he stays hoping to move up at his current employer when there isn't any place up to go - my nephew really is "stupid" and "lazy" and "entitled".  It's not very wise to "wait for someone to quit or die" to move up at a job - especially in a large densely populated urban area - where there are hundreds (maybe thousands) of other opportunites with other employers.  

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

The way the books explained it is if I am colorblind that allows me to not listen to the experiences of others because I don't *see* their issues.   It also allows me to ignore the much deeper more systemic issues that involve racism because I'm not looking for them because after all I just declared myself colorblind.  That makes me a good person and not a racist.  My work is done. ::pats on back::

I learned more about this when exploring intersectional feminism.  It's real easy to say feminism is inclusive because after all we are all women right?  Wrong.  What it really means is that I am ignoring Pink's experience, ignoring my Indian co-workers, Native American women so forth and so on.  They have experienced things as women of color that I cannot relate to.  I can't just look at the group and see a bunch of women.  I have to acknowledge they are different to be able to affect change for all.  Trying to be colorblind hobbles that.

We shouldn't be trying to ignore each others differences.  We need to embrace, face and advocate for them.

[Tiny]

here's another example of what I mean about 'scripts':

There is an application at work that's 15 years old that a handful of people use and that has no business owner because it's old school, clunky, and doesn't do anything glamourous and is used by a small group for a small part of their job.

Well, a conversion is going to happen next year - and someone needs to take responsibility for this old application. Since no one on the business side has a clue - my name as a developer came up about it - and I got asked who "owns" it...
When I was reporting this to my manager to help figure out who should own it (as no one does) I typed out that the app was a "Red Haired Step Child" in an email. Cause that phrase does describe the status of this app. But, really, should I use that phrase??
There are lots of other better ways to describe it. And I did edit that phrase out of my email. I'm guessing in the past I've used that phrase verbally without thinking (autopilot).

Now I'm a little more aware of what words I'm using.

[lurkyloo]

Oct 7, 2021 10:44:45 GMT -5 NomoreDramaQ1015 said:

The way the books explained it is if I am colorblind that allows me to not listen to the experiences of others because I don't *see* their issues.   It also allows me to ignore the much deeper more systemic issues that involve racism because I'm not looking for them because after all I just declared myself colorblind.  That makes me a good person and not a racist.  My work is done. ::pats on back::

I learned more about this when exploring intersectional feminism.  It's real easy to say feminism is inclusive because after all we are all women right?  Wrong.  What it really means is that I am ignoring Pink's experience, ignoring my Indian co-workers, Native American women so forth and so on.  They have experienced things as women of color that I cannot relate to.  I can't just look at the group and see a bunch of women.  I have to acknowledge they are different to be able to affect change for all.  Trying to be colorblind hobbles that.

We shouldn't be trying to ignore each others differences.  We need to embrace, face and advocate for them.

Yes, I probably phrased it poorly.  I suppose I meant I want to treat people equally to a first approximation, because IME people want to be judged on their merits and I do find it a bit patronizing to judge people based first on skin color then merits, however well meaning.  There was an article on microaggression in the wapo a while ago talking about how some random man complimented the Black female columnist on what a lovely family she had, while ignoring similar White families.  She felt that was indicative of him mentally adding the addendum „for a Black family“. 

I like to think that I try to judge people based on who they are, and race is part of that that sometimes-not-always requires adjustments. But I don’t want to discount challenges that race and prejudice have caused either.  I felt a lot better about my approach before I realized how deep the problems run.  

So...I dunno.  I’d say „tell me how to do better“ but that feels like abdicating responsibility, again.    Maybe „tell me how to think about it better?“

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

Oct 7, 2021 11:31:31 GMT -5 lurkyloo said:

Oct 7, 2021 10:44:45 GMT -5 NomoreDramaQ1015 said:

The way the books explained it is if I am colorblind that allows me to not listen to the experiences of others because I don't *see* their issues.   It also allows me to ignore the much deeper more systemic issues that involve racism because I'm not looking for them because after all I just declared myself colorblind.  That makes me a good person and not a racist.  My work is done. ::pats on back::

I learned more about this when exploring intersectional feminism.  It's real easy to say feminism is inclusive because after all we are all women right?  Wrong.  What it really means is that I am ignoring Pink's experience, ignoring my Indian co-workers, Native American women so forth and so on.  They have experienced things as women of color that I cannot relate to.  I can't just look at the group and see a bunch of women.  I have to acknowledge they are different to be able to affect change for all.  Trying to be colorblind hobbles that.

We shouldn't be trying to ignore each others differences.  We need to embrace, face and advocate for them.

Yes, I probably phrased it poorly.  I suppose I meant I want to treat people equally to a first approximation, because IME people want to be judged on their merits and I do find it a bit patronizing to judge people based first on skin color then merits, however well meaning.  There was an article on microaggression in the wapo a while ago talking about how some random man complimented the Black female columnist on what a lovely family she had, while ignoring similar White families.  She felt that was indicative of him mentally adding the addendum „for a Black family“. 

I like to think that I try to judge people based on who they are, and race is part of that that sometimes-not-always requires adjustments. But I don’t want to discount challenges that race and prejudice have caused either.  I felt a lot better about my approach before I realized how deep the problems run.  

So...I dunno.  I’d say „tell me how to do better“ but that feels like abdicating responsibility, again.    Maybe „tell me how to think about it better?“

Don't look at me I went cross eyed trying to understand it.  I think How to be an Anti-Racist did a pretty good job of walking me through it. 

I got the impression intentions were good and were a leap forward from the 50's/60s BUT as it's become ingrained in society we adapted it like everything else to our white centric views and comfort level.  For example not liking Obama for "reasons".  We live in a colorblind society so your reasons likely had nothing to do with the deeply embedded racism in our society after all you're "colorbind".  You voted for the best person who just happened to be a white dude.

Are there legitimate reasons to disagree with Obama?  Of course there are.  However when you compare Trump to Obama you realize A LOT of the crap hurled at the latter was actually based on race.   I bet a very good chunk of people would deny it saying they never saw the Obama's skin color.   They were just "judging him as a person".

We live in a society where the white straight Christian male is the ideal.  We have lived in that world since birth.  I am NOT colorblind.  I may think that I am but I am not remotely close to it. I just don't always recognize I am doing it.  Saying I am colorblind allows me to wrap myself in a security blanket and declare my work done.   I have to continue to do the hard work of pretty much rewiring my entire brain so I can see more than just the surface level racism in our society.

I think there was also a lot of discussion about how it allows us to continue to drive the mertiocracy narrative rather than examine our institutions such as education, banking and employment.  It allows me to ignore just how stacked the deck is for me simply by being white.

If we live in a color blind society you didn't get into college because you simply didn't work hard enough.   It has absolutely nothing to do with the unconcious biases of the people granting admission.  Therefore it's YOUR fault that you are kept down, not mine.  You didn't get the job because you didn't advocate hard enough not because everyone at the top is a white dude who use the old boys club to recruit even more white dudes. 

Me having all the privilege has nothing to do with me being white, this is 2021 not 1850.  "Nobody" see color anymore.  I got here simply because I am that much more awesome than you at everything.  Now go get your bootstraps.

[Deleted]

Oct 6, 2021 20:27:36 GMT -5 seriousthistime said:

It's not easy because we can all trip up and say the wrong thing.  But when we do say the wrong thing and we are called out on it, we should say we didn't realize, it wasn't intended the way it sounded, and we are big-time sorry.  Because if we endlessly rewrite the script in our head to make it perfect before we say something, we will say nothing. 

What am I doing to bring about change? That's a very good question.  I try to see people as people and not as colors or ethnicities.  But sometimes I have a bad day, because we all have bad days, and maybe I was disgruntled with what someone did and it had nothing to do with race or ethnicity, I just didn't like what they did.*  I would hate for a POC in that situation to think I was racist.  I don't know how we get past that. 

But seeing people as people and not as colors or ethnicities is not going to fix everything.  It is not enough to get us where we need to go. 

Just thinking out loud here and I may be completely off base.

It is kind of like climate change.  What can I -- one person -- do that will change things? Sure, I can become more energy conscious myself.  I could buy an electric or hybrid car.  Is it enough that I just drive very few miles in my gas-powered car and probably put less carbon into the atmosphere than the person who is driving more miles in a hybrid? Or not run my clothes dryer between the hours of 4 and 9 pm?  Not eat meat from hooved animals because they put so much methane into the air?  The consensus is that BIG things in industry need to change to reduce global warming, and the rest is just the rest of us tinkering around the edges. 

And as far as police shootings go, I am convinced that there are so many (not all, but a lot of) police shootings because there are so many guns in this country, police budgets are cut, and when there's a dangerous situation to which the police respond, there is insufficient backup.  And then the officer's gun becomes his or her backup.  Or when someone is pulled over and a sudden move is made, or when someone is having a mental health crisis, their go-to mode is to shoot first and ask questions later. Certainly, that doesn't explain a lot of police shootings, but it explains some of them.  What do we, as individuals, do to stop the number of guns in this country? (This goes to debthaven 's comment about police interaction with POC.  Fewer guns walking around among civilians in France may have something to do with it.) And school shootings.  There was another one today.  Things have changed so much that we have come to see news about another mass shooting as just another news story. Mass shootings at gay bars.  Temples.  Churches.  Grocery stores. 

These are just some of the big questions we need to deal with.  Sometimes they keep me up at night.  I wonder what is considered doing "something" or "enough" on an individual level about the big problems we face in this country. 

* For example, the people who live behind me have three little dogs.  I have a 50 pound Lab mix.  She is pretty gentle but will growl and then snap if another dog comes up to her face. The people with three little dogs are POC.  One day my dog (on her leash) rounded a corner at the park and the three little dogs (off leash) started to come up to her.  The owners were apologetic. There is a leash law here, and it's crazy to be walking little dogs at any time of the day or night because we live in coyote land. My dog and I turned around and went back where we came from, and I said nothing, did not acknowledge their apology, but I was plainly pissed. They may have interpreted that as racist.  Every time I have seen them out with their little dogs I've made small talk about the weather or the cute little skirts their dogs wear.  I treated them that day as I would have treated anyone else.  Was that enough? 

I apologize in advance and stand willing to be called out here. 





 

I can only speak for me. In the situation you describe, my first thought would’ve probably just been “rude”, not “racist”, when you didn’t acknowledge my apology.

I’ve talked in the thread this all came from, about my next door neighbor. When he first moved here, Mister and I were irritated because he had stuff and vehicles all over everywhere, on the side of his house and in the cove, and had our little cove looking junky. And yes, his dogs did bark a lot. But a reasonable explanation for that was they were in a new place, and there were plenty of raccoons, squirrels, rabbits, and who knows what else, running around to get their attention.

But just talking to him and his wife (who made a comment that she was not pleased with “all his junk”), I got the impression that they did care about being good neighbors. And they did finally get settled in and all the stuff put away. AND the dogs stopped barking so much. So all the problems were resolved as far as Mister and I were concerned.

But the other neighbors will not let it go, and are imo still harassing him. When they kept complaining and sending different agencies to his house, I started wondering what the REAL problem was. 

Growing up, my Mom moved into a White neighborhood twice. The first time, I was about 8yo and the little girl I’d been playing with sometimes told me her parents said she couldn’t play with me anymore because I was Black. The second time, my Mom moved to another White neighborhood when I was in high school. One night I was in the car with my children’s father, we were having car issues around the corner from my Mom’s house, where I still lived. A White man came up to the car with a bat in his hand yelling and accusing us of stealing people’s lawn equipment in the neighborhood. I was about 8 months pregnant, but I climbed over the seat, to the back (it was a hatchback) to get a tire iron to beat his ass with if he swung at us. Stealing lawn equipment?! No, we were not. 

The neighborhood Mister and I live in now was a White neighborhood for decades. The demographics started slowly changing about 15 years ago. Next Door neighbor is a young Black man (early 30’s) married to a woman of Asian descent. They bought the house from a White couple. My experiences from my childhood, experiences other people have shared with me as adults, and hell even things I’ve seen online, tells me that some White people get really upset when people of color move in their neighborhoods. And I started wondering if that is the real reason these folks continue to harass my next door neighbor long after the dogs stopped barking, which was the original complaint. It’s about 3 houses, with one house being the ringleader, and they have pretty much waged war on him.

I don’t know for sure if they are racist. But I do know that the house beside Next Door Neighbor, on the corner, does not return greetings from any of us. They didn’t with Mister and I, before NDN even moved in. Last year, I’d mistakenly opened some mail of theirs that was delivered to our house and I walked over a few times to try to put it in their hands instead of sticking it in their mailbox, because it was a card with $100 cash inside. I purposefully kept on my work shirt each time, with my employer’s logo visible, for whatever reason….. in an effort to appear a little less “threatening”? Idk what my reason for that really was. But I could see lights coming on, curtains moving, and they would not answer the door. The day Id decided if they didn’t answer I’d just put it in the mailbox, a man answered. And was more like oh, ok, than thank you when I gave him the envelope, told him I lived “right there”, pointing, and why I preferred not to just put it in their mailbox. And he still doesn’t speak to us.

Was it because I’m Black? Idk. Do they not speak or wave in passing, because we are Black? Idk. The neighbors on the corner on our side speak or wave.

Long ass post to say, I do not assume every White person that is rude, is racist. Even if I get that “vibe”….. and they really do give off a vibe sometimes….. I don’t automatically go there until or unless they confirm that vibe is correct.

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

You can let people think you are stupid or you can open your mouth and remove all doubt.

[laterbloomer]

Just have to say this is a great thread. A few people did an amazing job explaining the issues; pink, andi, swasat, raeflyte, treading water chloe, rukh...there are others, sorry I haven't named you all. You guys have much more patience then me to type out those detailed explanations. Good job 👍

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

Speaking of word usage something this is something a lot of people aren't really aware of.  So called "positive" stereotypes hurt minorities too.   I hate my state.  


www.cnn.com/2021/10/07/politics/chuck-grassley-lucy-koh-asian-americans-prejudice/index.html


"What you said about your Korean background reminded me a lot of what my daughter-in-law of 45 years has said: 'If I've learned anything from Korean people, it's a hard work ethic. And how you can make a lot out of nothing,' " the senator said during Koh's confirmation hearing.

Then, Grassley twisted the knife: "So I congratulate you and your people."

Hard work ethic. A lot out of nothing. You and your people. Swiftly, Grassley's comments set off backlash, with many pointing out that the senator had conjured the corrosive, age-old "model minority" myth.

Not only does this timeworn narrative strip Asian Americans of dimension and demographic complexity, it also creates conflict between racial groups and makes invisible the very real exclusion and prejudice that Asian Americans face.

This is something I think the boards should consider when they talk about how all students from India and China are such model students compared to their stupid American counterparts.  I read a study not too long ago that that myth actually hurts Asian students when they apply for college because it grooms admission's people to expect super high scores on the ACT and SAT  What might get a white student accepted is considered too low of a score for an Asian student.   

When you remove the names from the scores or use white sounding names like John/Jane the prejudice suddenly disappears.  

[TheOtherMe]

He also said she reminds him of his Korean daughter-in-law of 45 years.

Know Chuck, that fact entitles him to be able to say he is not racist.  

[Deleted]

Oct 7, 2021 16:39:02 GMT -5 TheOtherMe said:

He also said she reminds him of his Korean daughter-in-law of 45 years.

Know Chuck, that fact entitles him to be able to say he is not racist.  

Idk know any more about it besides what was posted here, so it seems like his daughter in law may have been his “token Korean”? 

Like how a previous post that I’m not sure what exactly was said and who said it, reminded me of “token” Negros and how “successful” Black people, like well known athletes like Michael Jordan…..  are ok, despite the fact that they are Black. Because they have a certain skill or whatever deems them acceptable in the public eye, society at large, they are somehow different and aren’t perceived like all those other millions of Black people. 

I’m tired and sleepy, and don’t feel all that good because of physical issues, so I’m not sure I’m expressing the thoughts that I’m trying to get across. So I’ll just leave it alone.

But I have to say that even though a lot of this has been uncomfortable for ME and other posters, I appreciate that so many have been willing to try to have an honest conversation. 

I know some posters had a problem with what minnesotapaintlady said about not wanting us to fight, regardless of what we were fighting about, but I understand that too and appreciate her honesty and her apology that she was more bothered about the argument period, than the subject.

I honestly think that since most of us are middle age or approaching it, all of this will not get sorted out in our lifetimes. But talking with you all gives me hope that MAYBE what we are teaching our children and grandchildren will help make things better for the generations that come behind us. If the world as we know it, doesn’t end first. But that’s a whole different subject.

Anyway, I just want to say that I appreciate every one of you that participated in this conversation, whether I agreed with what you said or not. I think that being willing to listen, and being willing to think about ways we can be better and do better, as individuals, is what will help our world become a better place. That’s just me though, and I very well could be wrong.

[TheOtherMe]

I turn 70 in 10 days and, sadly, I don't think there will be much improvement in my lifetime.  That makes me sad, very sad.  

I have also realized the narrow world view my sister has.  I imagine many farm families and retired farm families in Iowa and the Midwest have the same world view as Grassley and my sister and her husband.  

The guy will be in his 90's during his next term as senator and he will easily win.

If I hadn't been busy babysitting and then sick, I would have participated more.  

My outlook totally changed when I moved to Denver.  Totally.

[finnime]

I live in one of the most diverse areas in the country. Within this area, my little community or neighborhood of about 500 homes has been becoming more and more diverse (except economically--these houses cost) rapidly. Now it has pretty much every group represented, I think. A few single people, lots of young families and couples, older people who have lived here for decades and raised families. We also have a very active community association.

LGBTQ--we had a Pride parade that was vigorously well attended, especially by children, and at which neighbors plus our U.S. congressional rep, state senator and members of the county council all spoke. We have yearly had Christmas tree lightings and attendant festivities at the center of the neighborhood for decades. A few years ago a menorah was added to this. We'll add more. Racially we are mostly white, but it is a very slim majority. We are also Indian, Asian, Black, biracial, Hispanic, Arabic, and no doubt others, including immigrants from all over the world and people who descend from the first American settlers.

We have a Catholic church on one side of the neighborhood with a school, across the street from the elementary school. At the back church parking lot police have been gathering most nights, anywhere from 2 to 5 cars, as they are working. This came up for discussion at our community association. At first the vocal participants stated how good this was for the increased safety and perceived safety. Then first one person, then others chimed in that actually, this made them uncomfortable. A number of people had started walking around that side of the neighborhood at those times. Police presence made them feel less safe. A revelation for many, to whom it never occurred that police could represent danger.

Our Diversity and Inclusion committee instituted quarterly meetings with police liaisons to help foster communication and recognition that police also promote unease. It seems to be helping. I hope it's helping. I'd not been real happy about the police hanging out, either. As a young driver I observed my son getting stopped quite frequently for no real cause. My son is so white he's almost translucent. It was just his age and gender that made him a target for attention.

Don't know where this post is going, except that things are changing faster and faster. Where I grew up there was one single Black family. Kids were bussed in from Boston when I was in high school. Then, my roommate my freshman year in Philadelphia was Black. It was funny; we had the same first name. People calling learned to specify the white 'Sophia' or the Black 'Sophia'.

There has been a lot of discomfort for people who have been in carefully maintained bubbles all over the country. I'm glad to have been able to live here, to raise my kids here. They are 1000% more comfortable with people from all walks of life than I'd been. I hope this accelerates.

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

Oct 7, 2021 21:00:33 GMT -5 TheOtherMe said:

I turn 70 in 10 days and, sadly, I don't think there will be much improvement in my lifetime.  That makes me sad, very sad.  

I have also realized the narrow world view my sister has.  I imagine many farm families and retired farm families in Iowa and the Midwest have the same world view as Grassley and my sister and her husband.  

The guy will be in his 90's during his next term as senator and he will easily win.

If I hadn't been busy babysitting and then sick, I would have participated more.  

My outlook totally changed when I moved to Denver.  Totally.

I'm hoping it will in mine.  I am only 38.   I am going to have to wait for A LOT of funerals though.  In the meantime I can teach my kids better so when we all finally die they can inherit a better world.

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

Oct 7, 2021 19:34:08 GMT -5 @pinkcshmere said:

Oct 7, 2021 16:39:02 GMT -5 TheOtherMe said:

He also said she reminds him of his Korean daughter-in-law of 45 years.

Know Chuck, that fact entitles him to be able to say he is not racist.  

Idk know any more about it besides what was posted here, so it seems like his daughter in law may have been his “token Korean”? 

Like how a previous post that I’m not sure what exactly was said and who said it, reminded me of “token” Negros and how “successful” Black people, like well known athletes like Michael Jordan…..  are ok, despite the fact that they are Black. Because they have a certain skill or whatever deems them acceptable in the public eye, society at large, they are somehow different and aren’t perceived like all those other millions of Black people. 

I’m tired and sleepy, and don’t feel all that good because of physical issues, so I’m not sure I’m expressing the thoughts that I’m trying to get across. So I’ll just leave it alone.

But I have to say that even though a lot of this has been uncomfortable for ME and other posters, I appreciate that so many have been willing to try to have an honest conversation. 

I know some posters had a problem with what minnesotapaintlady said about not wanting us to fight, regardless of what we were fighting about, but I understand that too and appreciate her honesty and her apology that she was more bothered about the argument period, than the subject.

I honestly think that since most of us are middle age or approaching it, all of this will not get sorted out in our lifetimes. But talking with you all gives me hope that MAYBE what we are teaching our children and grandchildren will help make things better for the generations that come behind us. If the world as we know it, doesn’t end first. But that’s a whole different subject.

Anyway, I just want to say that I appreciate every one of you that participated in this conversation, whether I agreed with what you said or not. I think that being willing to listen, and being willing to think about ways we can be better and do better, as individuals, is what will help our world become a better place. That’s just me though, and I very well could be wrong.

Over on P&M once Phil started arguing that African Americans are better at basketball because they are genetically and physically designed to be better.    Not going to say I was shocked knowing how old Phil is but damn dude.

Trying to explain why it was not a positive thing went *whoosh*.

He's also the one that constantly harps about the fact that with women in the workforce we are destroying the country's men.   So what I go back to being barefoot and pregnant?

It's far more likely toxic masculinity is so embedded in our culture that the idea of men adapting is unthinkable.  How dare I suggest that if more women becoming doctors leaves a nursing shortage that men become nurses to fill the gap!  Women need to quit going to medical school!   

We aren't "leaving men behind" they are CHOOSING not to follow into the 21st century.

I really get why people in Phil's age group latched onto Trump like leeches.  He promises them the glory days of when everyone knew their place, who was in charge and didn't dare challenge it.  Obama and Clinton were a slap in the face to those voters.

[Deleted]

So, cooking dinner this evening with Mister made me think of some more stuff. We were playing music while we worked. We both love music and play it a lot. Tonight Mister had us listening to rap. And a song came on that made me think about this thread.

A lot of people don’t like rap, but some of it is rappers’ ways of telling their stories. Just some, because a lot of it really is junk these days.

So, the song tonight that made me think about this, was a song from Jay Z, from his latest album, and Idek the name of this song.  But the hook basically said that whatever we might accomplish in life, no matter how “successful” we are, we’re still n***** . That is fact. Not to all, but to enough that it matters.

And I thought about all the uproar back in the day when NWA released the song “Fuck the Police” and people were so outraged that it became a problem for them to perform the song at their concerts. They did it anyway though. But the song was based off their experiences and it was how they’d come to feel based off what they’d seen, heard and been through themselves. And a lot of Black people identified with the sentiment. The movie “Straight Outta Compton” gives a little insight to why they made the song. I’m mostly a law abiding citizen and I’m old and boring, but I’d still rather not deal with the police or any law enforcement officers myself. 

Then there was Public Enemy, another rap group that made the song saying 911 is a joke. And for people living in the inner city, it kinda is. I have heard with my own ears, police officers saying they don’t hurry to get to “shots fired” calls, hoping that it’s all over by the time they get there.

And when I lived in the ‘hood as an adult, there was a man and woman in a car in front of my house, fighting. My neighbors were standing on their porches watching. I called the police. They finally drove off after a while, but I still waited a couple hours for the police to come, since I’d given them my real name and address. I had somewhere to go, so I finally left home to run my errand. When I got less than a mile from home, I saw several police cars on the scene of a car accident. When I got back home about an hour later, the police finally came knocking on my door. I was DISGUSTED and did not try to hide it. So many hours had passed that that woman could’ve been sleeping with the fishes in the Mississippi River by then. I’d done what I would hope someone would AT LEAST do for me in similar circumstances, call for help and I was angry that it took so long for “help” to arrive. So, yeah, 911 is a joke.

I don’t really have a point besides saying that our stories have been told in “our” art, rap music. But I also admit that these days, most rap music is something very different from what it started out as.

That is all.

[laterbloomer]

I saw Straight Out Of Compton accidentally. I'm not much of a music person, and when I do listen it's mainly country music. One of my foster daughters asked me to got to the movies and she picked Straight Out of Compton. That movie showed me a world that was totally foreign to me. It gave me a little more insight. I was glad I saw it.

[nidena]

I mentioned in a previous comment that I just finished the book White Fragility.  On its own, it is a problematic book.  I knew this going in.  There are numerous articles out there of why it's problematic but it does have some great points and I would suggest including it in your reading about white supremacy, white solidarity, and racism.

One part that I liked are the lists. (I like lists).  This is one that points out the many phrases of color-blind racism.  (How many did we see in this thread?):

• I was taught to treat everyone the same
  
• I don't see color
• I don't care if you are pink, purple, or polka-dotted
• Race doesn't have any meaning to me
• My parents were/weren't racist, so that is why I am not racist
• Everyone struggles, but if you work hard...
• So-and-so just happens to be black but that has nothing to do with what what I'm about to tell you.
• Focusing on race is what divides us.
• If people are respectful to me, I am respectful to them, regardless of race.
• Children today are so much more open.
• I'm not racist; I'm from Canada.
• I was picked on because I as white/I grew up poor (so I don't have race privilege).

A large focus of the book is that we see racism as binary: racist/not racist or racist=bad/not-racist=good.

In reality, racism is a spectrum from blatant to subtle.  White hoods and lynching to dismissing a job candidate (silently, not out loud) because their name is Tanisha and they live on the "bad" side of town.

[Deleted]

Oct 10, 2021 9:49:01 GMT -5 nidena said:

I mentioned in a previous comment that I just finished the book White Fragility.  On its own, it is a problematic book.  I knew this going in.  There are numerous articles out there of why it's problematic but it does have some great points and I would suggest including it in your reading about white supremacy, white solidarity, and racism.

One part that I liked are the lists. (I like lists).  This is one that points out the many phrases of color-blind racism.  (How many did we see in this thread?):

• I was taught to treat everyone the same I was taught to judge people on their own merits, but I was also cautioned by family members that were active in the Civil Rights movement, that while many of them are good people, White people bear watching.
  
• I don't see color Our society has always reminded me one way or another than I am “Black” , so I do see color in this world.
• I don't care if you are pink, purple, or polka-dotted I really don’t care IRT how I treat you initially.
• Race doesn't have any meaning to me I’d like to believe this was true, but the way society has made me constantly aware of the fact that I’m Black, I do also pay attention to the race or ethnicity of the people I encounter as I move through life. 
• My parents were/weren't racist, so that is why I am not racist Despite all the things my close, older relatives lived through, they didn’t teach me to be racist, even though in hindsight, I’m not so sure I would’ve been that big of a person myself. But I’m concerned I may be becoming one now.
• Everyone struggles, but if you work hard... That’s a bunch of bullshit. America IS the land of opportunity, but I still believe that it is not an even playing field.
• So-and-so just happens to be black but that has nothing to do with what what I'm about to tell you. I don’t know what to say about that one. I don’t think I’ve ever said something like that.
• Focusing on race is what divides us. I disagree. Our society makes me well aware of my race, but when it’s all said and done, I want my American sisters and brothers to stand with me, and I want to stand with them. It is supposed to be the UNITED States of America, right?
• If people are respectful to me, I am respectful to them, regardless of race. That’s true for me. Idk why that could be a problem, but I’m willing to learn.
• Children today are so much more open. I think that may be true if it’s referring to being open minded. My children have not experienced some of the things I have. They got really irritated when I bought the movie X and made them watch it. I did it because I wanted them to understand a little about our history in this country. I didn’t teach them to hate White people, but I tried to get them to understand that some White people hate THEM for no real reason. It was a fine line to walk for me.
• I'm not racist; I'm from Canada. This doesn’t apply to me.
• I was picked on because I as white/I grew up poor (so I don't have race privilege). This doesn’t apply to me either.

A large focus of the book is that we see racism as binary: racist/not racist or racist=bad/not-racist=good.

In reality, racism is a spectrum from blatant to subtle.  White hoods and lynching to dismissing a job candidate (silently, not out loud) because their name is Tanisha and they live on the "bad" side of town.

I actually prefer racists be blatant, so I know how to deal with them without playing guessing games. 

There’s someone at my job who a lot of people think is a cool white man. Something I could never identify, has always made me reserve judgement. He is clearly attracted to Black women, and his oldest child has a Black mother. But I’ve always felt that a White man’s attraction to Black women doesn’t mean they aren’t racist. When slave owners were raping their Black female slaves, they were still racists and horrible people.

So this White man told me out of his own mouth that his wealthy family was real racists and they refused to have anything to do with his oldest child because the mother was Black. Then other coworkers have told me that he’s said his parents disowned him because of that. I believe that to be true for a few reasons.

Imo, he is definitely attracted to Black women, and is “cool” with Black men at the job, but none of that means he has real respect for any of us. Given what he’s told me and others about his FOO, I think that best case scenario, he’s confused. Apparently he was raised by and spent most of his time as a child with a Black nanny because his parents were always “busy”. I think that contributes to his attraction to Black women even though he’s absorbed some of what his family was about. That’s just my opinion though.

I don’t have any concrete evidence to prove that to be true. My point though, is that a lot of this racism and racist shit is not as simple and clear cut as I would prefer.

[swamp]

This guy sounds like he could give Freud a full time job.

[swamp]

I don’t see “ I don’t care what color you are” to be color blind racism.

I really don’t think color is something that would or should influence how someone treats someone else. I do recognize that is does matter to some people, and maybe it does to most people. I also recognize that race has played a huge part of our culture and is why blacks on average have lower incomes, less family wealth, etc. But as far as how I treat someone I just met, or whether I hire the black person or white person, I don’t consider that to be a factor.

Maybe I’m explaining this wrong. Maybe I don’t get it. I’m willing to hear about other perspectives

[tallguy]

I also have a problem with the phrase, "I don't see color" being at all or in any form racist.  The phrase for me goes back to around 1970-1971.  That was a time of very blatant racial issues and problems in our country.  John Wooden was coaching basketball at UCLA, and is still regarded as one of the greatest coaches ever in any sport.  A reporter asked one of his best players, Curtis Rowe, whether Wooden was prejudiced against black players?  Rowe answered, "Coach Wooden doesn't see color.  He sees players."  Maybe it means more if someone says it about you than whether you say it about yourself? 

Either way, I don't think it is meant to be taken literally, as that you really don't know or can't see what color somebody is.  I notice color, but I don't "note" it.  It doesn't occupy any space in my thinking or decision-making, and I don't treat anybody differently because of it.  Being an intelligent, thoughtful person, I also make an effort to know what types of problems have been visited upon others because of their race (even though I have never experienced it or even seen anywhere near the worst of it) so that I can not only not perpetuate them but fight against them where necessary.  I would guess that not thinking about or treating individuals differently because of race is what "not seeing color" should mean.  If you are able to go beyond that and fight against racism where you see it, all the better.        
   

[raeoflyte]

I think it's an ideal that we jumped too way before our time.

I don't see color means everyone has the same opportunities. That I can judge or assess people through my lense. If you don't see color, you're ignoring the systemic racism that you/we are benefiting from at the expense of POC.

I was raised with that idea of being color blind and it made me a shitty ally.

My first real exposure was a coworker telling me -similar to what Pink said - she preferred some areas in the south where people didn't hide their racism (as in actual lynching when white and black people socialized together in the wrong area - she's my age so we're talking about 1990's). She felt safer there than in our area that is heavy on the color blind system.

[Knee Deep in Water Chloe]

How timely!
This is an upcoming lecture at the university I attend: 

Colorblindness/evasiveness Ideology among Educators and

Parents in Disproportionate School Districts

[tallguy]

Oct 10, 2021 19:55:21 GMT -5 raeoflyte said:

I think it's an ideal that we jumped too way before our time.

I don't see color means everyone has the same opportunities. That I can judge or assess people through my lense. If you don't see color, you're ignoring the systemic racism that you/we are benefiting from at the expense of POC.

I was raised with that idea of being color blind and it made me a shitty ally.

My first real exposure was a coworker telling me -similar to what Pink said - she preferred some areas in the south where people didn't hide their racism (as in actual lynching when white and black people socialized together in the wrong area - she's my age so we're talking about 1990's). She felt safer there than in our area that is heavy on the color blind system.

I would strongly disagree with this.  It is certainly true that you cannot have a real discussion if you cannot even agree on the terms, but I think the bolded is a terrible definition.  There is nothing in the idea of "not seeing color" that requires ignorance in every other area, and what you are describing is ignorance.  Those who are "enlightened" enough (if you want to use that term) to have overcome historical prejudices and can treat people equally no matter what are also the least likely to be so culturally, historically, and interpersonally ignorant as to not know what racism is and how it impacts others. 

It is not true that "I don't see color means everyone has the same opportunities."  That would only be true if society didn't see color, and that is clearly false.  "I don't see color" is an individual statement.  I posted before what I define it as, and in this context is not the same as color-blind.  It is not ignoring anything.  It is stating that I as an individual do not allow color to impact my views or actions toward another individual or group.  Nothing in there says that I cannot also fight against ideas or practices that I consider to be wrong.

[andi9899]

Oct 10, 2021 22:00:38 GMT -5 tallguy said:

Oct 10, 2021 19:55:21 GMT -5 raeoflyte said:

I think it's an ideal that we jumped too way before our time.

I don't see color means everyone has the same opportunities. That I can judge or assess people through my lense. If you don't see color, you're ignoring the systemic racism that you/we are benefiting from at the expense of POC.

I was raised with that idea of being color blind and it made me a shitty ally.

My first real exposure was a coworker telling me -similar to what Pink said - she preferred some areas in the south where people didn't hide their racism (as in actual lynching when white and black people socialized together in the wrong area - she's my age so we're talking about 1990's). She felt safer there than in our area that is heavy on the color blind system.

I would strongly disagree with this.  It is certainly true that you cannot have a real discussion if you cannot even agree on the terms, but I think the bolded is a terrible definition.  There is nothing in the idea of "not seeing color" that requires ignorance in every other area, and what you are describing is ignorance.  Those who are "enlightened" enough (if you want to use that term) to have overcome historical prejudices and can treat people equally no matter what are also the least likely to be so culturally, historically, and interpersonally ignorant as to not know what racism is and how it impacts others. 

It is not true that "I don't see color means everyone has the same opportunities."  That would only be true if society didn't see color, and that is clearly false.  "I don't see color" is an individual statement.  I posted before what I define it as, and in this context is not the same as color-blind.  It is not ignoring anything.  It is stating that I as an individual do not allow color to impact my views or actions toward another individual or group.  Nothing in there says that I cannot also fight against ideas or practices that I consider to be wrong.

I completely agree with Rae. You can't change something if you don't recognize the problem.

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

Oct 10, 2021 19:55:21 GMT -5 raeoflyte said:

I think it's an ideal that we jumped too way before our time.

I don't see color means everyone has the same opportunities. That I can judge or assess people through my lense. If you don't see color, you're ignoring the systemic racism that you/we are benefiting from at the expense of POC.

I was raised with that idea of being color blind and it made me a shitty ally.

My first real exposure was a coworker telling me -similar to what Pink said - she preferred some areas in the south where people didn't hide their racism (as in actual lynching when white and black people socialized together in the wrong area - she's my age so we're talking about 1990's). She felt safer there than in our area that is heavy on the color blind system.

That is how I understood it as well.   Announcing I am color blind allows me to wrap myself up in a protective armor so I don't have to deal with or recognize my own shit. ESPECIALLY when called out on it.  Now I've been able to deflect and put the POC in a position of having to decide if they want to convince me I am indeed a racist or soothe my ego.

Whether I want to admit it or not the fact remains society holds the straight white Christian (Protestant in particular) man as the ideal and I've been immersed in that since birth.   Saying I am color blind ignores the fact that deep down I am really not and to dismantle the system I need to accept that.

[tallguy]

Oct 11, 2021 10:55:31 GMT -5 andi9899 said:

Oct 10, 2021 22:00:38 GMT -5 tallguy said:

I would strongly disagree with this.  It is certainly true that you cannot have a real discussion if you cannot even agree on the terms, but I think the bolded is a terrible definition.  There is nothing in the idea of "not seeing color" that requires ignorance in every other area, and what you are describing is ignorance.  Those who are "enlightened" enough (if you want to use that term) to have overcome historical prejudices and can treat people equally no matter what are also the least likely to be so culturally, historically, and interpersonally ignorant as to not know what racism is and how it impacts others. 

It is not true that "I don't see color means everyone has the same opportunities."  That would only be true if society didn't see color, and that is clearly false.  "I don't see color" is an individual statement.  I posted before what I define it as, and in this context is not the same as color-blind.  It is not ignoring anything.  It is stating that I as an individual do not allow color to impact my views or actions toward another individual or group.  Nothing in there says that I cannot also fight against ideas or practices that I consider to be wrong.

I completely agree with Rae. You can't change something if you don't recognize the problem.

I think it may be helpful to reread my response(s).  What could possibly suggest that I don't recognize the problem?  We have a disagreement on a definition of a term.  "Not seeing color" (at least as I define it here) does not require any level of ignorance about racism in general and should be considered anti-racist rather than "ignorant racist."  My use and understanding of the term goes back fifty years, as I noted earlier.  I think I'm on pretty solid ground here.