Here is a realistic picture of the caravan in Mexico.

[Value Buy]

Nov 9, 2018 9:51:11 GMT -5 andi9899 said:

Nov 9, 2018 7:37:52 GMT -5 zibazinski said:

They’d cost more in the long run. Don’t care. It sends a message that’s long overdue.

How would they cost more in the long run? They can't receive welfare or food stamps. They do the piddly jobs most Americans consider beneath them for a wage most Americans wouldn't even get off the couch for, keeping pricesif good for the restof us lower. They take care of their children and each other which is more than a lot of Americans including you are willing to consider. They fly below the radar to not be detected and possibly deported back to a country they ran from to save their lives.

How is it exactly that they would cost us more in the long run? And don't give me some obtuse answer. Actually give an intelligent logical argument for once.

thelawdictionary.org/article/why-is-it-that-illegal-aliens-get-free-food-stamps-health-insurance-and-pay-no-taxes/

[Great]

Nov 9, 2018 9:46:48 GMT -5 Gardening Grandma said:

Nov 9, 2018 9:42:24 GMT -5 Great said:

What does mass murder have to do with illegals that have killed and maimed Americans?

Is this the whataboutisms the Dems like bring up all the time?

I believe oped (correct me if I'm wrong) is saying there are far more, exponentially more, mass murders by white men than by illegal immigrants.  It's an issue of scale.  

Whether at the hands of an illegal immigrant or mass murderer they are tragic, wrongful and untimely violent deaths. I don't understand what white, brown, black, color coding, male or female, has to do with those who kill others? They are all murderers and laws, consequences and punishments should be applied equally.

Mass murderers. Maybe more spent on mental health services is the answer? 
Illegal immigrant caused deaths. Tighter border security and processing all claims through legal ports of entry, well vetted and on a merit based system. 

I don't think its one size fits all solution when trying to address both problems.

[andi9899]

Nov 9, 2018 10:04:38 GMT -5 Value Buy said:

Nov 9, 2018 9:51:11 GMT -5 andi9899 said:

How would they cost more in the long run? They can't receive welfare or food stamps. They do the piddly jobs most Americans consider beneath them for a wage most Americans wouldn't even get off the couch for, keeping pricesif good for the restof us lower. They take care of their children and each other which is more than a lot of Americans including you are willing to consider. They fly below the radar to not be detected and possibly deported back to a country they ran from to save their lives.

How is it exactly that they would cost us more in the long run? And don't give me some obtuse answer. Actually give an intelligent logical argument for once.

thelawdictionary.org/article/why-is-it-that-illegal-aliens-get-free-food-stamps-health-insurance-and-pay-no-taxes/

This is the last paragraph of your article:

Our own failures to improve security, verify immigrant status, and recognize forged documents are what cause illegal aliens to receive benefits.

Perhaps instead of spending hundreds of millions of dollars trying to stop a few thousand people from reaching the border and seeking asylum as our laws allow, we should invest that money into fixing a system that is known to be broken. This is what I and others have been saying all along. Not once has anyone on this board or anywhere else suggested making this country a free for all or opening up borders. Let's just fix what's broken. Instead your leader is going all cowboy on innocent people who are just trying to save their own lives. This country was built by immigrants. What makes your ancestors and different than theirs? The fact that they were white?

[Value Buy]

Nov 9, 2018 10:24:53 GMT -5 andi9899 said:

Nov 9, 2018 10:04:38 GMT -5 Value Buy said:

thelawdictionary.org/article/why-is-it-that-illegal-aliens-get-free-food-stamps-health-insurance-and-pay-no-taxes/

This is the last paragraph of your article:

Our own failures to improve security, verify immigrant status, and recognize forged documents are what cause illegal aliens to receive benefits.

Perhaps instead of spending hundreds of millions of dollars trying to stop a few thousand people from reaching the border and seeking asylum as our laws allow, we should invest that money into fixing a system that is known to be broken. This is what I and others have been saying all along. Not once has anyone on this board or anywhere else suggested making this country a free for all or opening up borders. Let's just fix what's broken. Instead your leader is going all cowboy on innocent people who are just trying to save their own lives. This country was built by immigrants. What makes your ancestors and different than theirs? The fact that they were white?

You stated they do not receive benefits and foodstamps.
I gave you a link, and all you have is a quote from the article stating we should secure the border, verify imigrant status and recognize forged documents sounds quite a bit of what Trump wants to do.

[oped]

People seeking asylum are not illegal. Jersey girl. 

[andi9899]

Nov 9, 2018 10:29:55 GMT -5 Value Buy said:

Nov 9, 2018 10:24:53 GMT -5 andi9899 said:

This is the last paragraph of your article:

Our own failures to improve security, verify immigrant status, and recognize forged documents are what cause illegal aliens to receive benefits.

Perhaps instead of spending hundreds of millions of dollars trying to stop a few thousand people from reaching the border and seeking asylum as our laws allow, we should invest that money into fixing a system that is known to be broken. This is what I and others have been saying all along. Not once has anyone on this board or anywhere else suggested making this country a free for all or opening up borders. Let's just fix what's broken. Instead your leader is going all cowboy on innocent people who are just trying to save their own lives. This country was built by immigrants. What makes your ancestors and different than theirs? The fact that they were white?

You stated they do not receive benefits and foodstamps.
I gave you a link, and all you have is a quote from the article stating we should secure the border, verify imigrant status and recognize forged documents sounds quite a bit of what Trump wants to do.

They don't receive benefits. Their American citizen children do according to your article.

And yes, I quoted your article. If your article was so informative, why not quote it? The article clearly states what the problem is. The article was your entire argument, was it not?

That is absolutely not what DT wants to do or he'd be doing it. Instead he wants to spend an obscene amount of money to send armed guards to the border to stop some people from entering by any means possible including possibility killing people and their children or at the very least, killing people in front of their children. How is that even remotely the same thing? You cannot possibly be that dense or that blind.

[bean29]

Nov 9, 2018 10:29:55 GMT -5 Value Buy said:

Nov 9, 2018 10:24:53 GMT -5 andi9899 said:

This is the last paragraph of your article:

Our own failures to improve security, verify immigrant status, and recognize forged documents are what cause illegal aliens to receive benefits.

Perhaps instead of spending hundreds of millions of dollars trying to stop a few thousand people from reaching the border and seeking asylum as our laws allow, we should invest that money into fixing a system that is known to be broken. This is what I and others have been saying all along. Not once has anyone on this board or anywhere else suggested making this country a free for all or opening up borders. Let's just fix what's broken. Instead your leader is going all cowboy on innocent people who are just trying to save their own lives. This country was built by immigrants. What makes your ancestors and different than theirs? The fact that they were white?

You stated they do not receive benefits and foodstamps.
I gave you a link, and all you have is a quote from the article stating we should secure the border, verify imigrant status and recognize forged documents sounds quite a bit of what Trump wants to do.

The illegal immigrant is not receiving the benefits, the WIC is for the child as are the food stamps they are collecting.

[Iggy aka IG]

Nov 9, 2018 9:21:36 GMT -5 Great said:

Nov 9, 2018 7:17:13 GMT -5 tbop77 said:

$200-$300 million dollars to keep out 4K people makes sense to you?  Sorry, not sorry, that is just stupid!

Ask an American citizen that has lost a family member at the hands of an illegal immigrant if their loved ones lives could be replaced for $200-300M, then call them stupid as they grieve their loss.
Its also about more than 4K illegals entering our country illegally and abusing our system, that estimate has been revised and is growing.  There are more waves of caravans forming as well and will continue until its stopped. 

Asylum claims have been grossly abused. Migrants should only be allowed to claim asylum only at legal ports of entry.
The USA should also have a merit based system, including criminal background checks prior to entry. 

And I'd add all the nasty, illegal drugs coming from that direction.  The heroine and meth busts via gangs and illegals, even in our little valley, is reprehensible.  We don't have enough rehab and detox space as it is.

[Iggy aka IG]

Nov 9, 2018 10:04:38 GMT -5 Value Buy said:

Nov 9, 2018 9:51:11 GMT -5 andi9899 said:

How would they cost more in the long run? They can't receive welfare or food stamps. They do the piddly jobs most Americans consider beneath them for a wage most Americans wouldn't even get off the couch for, keeping pricesif good for the restof us lower. They take care of their children and each other which is more than a lot of Americans including you are willing to consider. They fly below the radar to not be detected and possibly deported back to a country they ran from to save their lives.

How is it exactly that they would cost us more in the long run? And don't give me some obtuse answer. Actually give an intelligent logical argument for once.

thelawdictionary.org/article/why-is-it-that-illegal-aliens-get-free-food-stamps-health-insurance-and-pay-no-taxes/

In an article related to the Farm Bill yesterday, it mentioned 12% of Americans receive food stamps.  It didn't break it down to a person's status in our country.  Interesting.

The Farm Bill. Now What?

[tbop77]

Nov 9, 2018 11:26:22 GMT -5 Iggy aka IG said:

Nov 9, 2018 9:21:36 GMT -5 Great said:

Ask an American citizen that has lost a family member at the hands of an illegal immigrant if their loved ones lives could be replaced for $200-300M, then call them stupid as they grieve their loss.
Its also about more than 4K illegals entering our country illegally and abusing our system, that estimate has been revised and is growing.  There are more waves of caravans forming as well and will continue until its stopped. 

Asylum claims have been grossly abused. Migrants should only be allowed to claim asylum only at legal ports of entry.
The USA should also have a merit based system, including criminal background checks prior to entry. 

And I'd add all the nasty, illegal drugs coming from that direction.  The heroine and meth busts via gangs and illegals, even in our little valley, is reprehensible.  We don't have enough rehab and detox space as it is.

Heck yeah!  Takes business away from the US big pharm companies! 

[andi9899]

Nov 9, 2018 11:26:22 GMT -5 Iggy aka IG said:

Nov 9, 2018 9:21:36 GMT -5 Great said:

Ask an American citizen that has lost a family member at the hands of an illegal immigrant if their loved ones lives could be replaced for $200-300M, then call them stupid as they grieve their loss.
Its also about more than 4K illegals entering our country illegally and abusing our system, that estimate has been revised and is growing.  There are more waves of caravans forming as well and will continue until its stopped. 

Asylum claims have been grossly abused. Migrants should only be allowed to claim asylum only at legal ports of entry.
The USA should also have a merit based system, including criminal background checks prior to entry. 

And I'd add all the nasty, illegal drugs coming from that direction.  The heroine and meth busts via gangs and illegals, even in our little valley, is reprehensible.  We don't have enough rehab and detox space as it is.

Yeah. Because we all know that American citizens aren't involved with drug trafficking. They sure don't mix up meth from cold medicine that can be purchased in any drugstore or grocery store. It must be all those brown people.

[Iggy aka IG]

Nov 9, 2018 12:01:00 GMT -5 andi9899 said:

Nov 9, 2018 11:26:22 GMT -5 Iggy aka IG said:

And I'd add all the nasty, illegal drugs coming from that direction.  The heroine and meth busts via gangs and illegals, even in our little valley, is reprehensible.  We don't have enough rehab and detox space as it is.

Yeah. Because we all know that American citizens aren't involved with drug trafficking. They sure don't mix up meth from cold medicine that can be purchased in any drugstore or grocery store. It must be all those brown people.

I didn't say the supply also doesn't come from elsewhere. My post refers to the gangs our local authorities have been busting the past XX years, including the M13 and others.

[andi9899]

Nov 9, 2018 12:09:10 GMT -5 Iggy aka IG said:

Nov 9, 2018 12:01:00 GMT -5 andi9899 said:

Yeah. Because we all know that American citizens aren't involved with drug trafficking. They sure don't mix up meth from cold medicine that can be purchased in any drugstore or grocery store. It must be all those brown people.

I didn't say the supply also doesn't come from elsewhere. My post refers to the gangs our local authorities have been busting the past XX years, including the M13 and others.

Gangbangers come in all sorts of colors and citizenship statuses too. I live in the hood and have known my fair share of gangbangers. The majority of them were American citizens.

The fact is that the majority of the people seeking asylum including this caravan are trying to get away from the gangs in their countries. They don't want to come here and be leeches or cause trouble. They want a shot at a life. One where they don't have to worry if they're going to be shanked or shot for looking at someone the wrong way or for refusing to smuggle drugs. Can you really blame them?

[swamp]

Nov 9, 2018 11:26:22 GMT -5 Iggy aka IG said:

Nov 9, 2018 9:21:36 GMT -5 Great said:

Ask an American citizen that has lost a family member at the hands of an illegal immigrant if their loved ones lives could be replaced for $200-300M, then call them stupid as they grieve their loss.
Its also about more than 4K illegals entering our country illegally and abusing our system, that estimate has been revised and is growing.  There are more waves of caravans forming as well and will continue until its stopped. 

Asylum claims have been grossly abused. Migrants should only be allowed to claim asylum only at legal ports of entry.
The USA should also have a merit based system, including criminal background checks prior to entry. 

And I'd add all the nasty, illegal drugs coming from that direction.  The heroine and meth busts via gangs and illegals, even in our little valley, is reprehensible.  We don't have enough rehab and detox space as it is.

meth is made locally, not imported. 

Heroin and cocaine do come in front elsewhere, though.  

[hurley1980]

It breaks my heart how heartless some of you are. These are human beings!

[Iggy aka IG]

Using the wise words of mmhmm earlier this week, it's okay if we have different opinions.  We're going to have to agree to disagree on this one.  I have a different viewpoint based on where I've lived and have seen in my lifetime, as well as looking at the numbers and facts.

[Iggy aka IG]

Nov 9, 2018 12:16:36 GMT -5 swamp said:

Nov 9, 2018 11:26:22 GMT -5 Iggy aka IG said:

And I'd add all the nasty, illegal drugs coming from that direction.  The heroine and meth busts via gangs and illegals, even in our little valley, is reprehensible.  We don't have enough rehab and detox space as it is.

meth is made locally, not imported. 

Heroin and cocaine do come in front elsewhere, though.  

The drug sniffing dogs must be confused then. 

[swamp]

Nov 9, 2018 12:19:11 GMT -5 Iggy aka IG said:

Using the wise words of mmhmm earlier this week, it's okay if we have different opinions.  We're going to have to agree to disagree on this one.  I have a different viewpoint based on where I've lived and have seen in my lifetime, as well as looking at the numbers and facts.

I can agree to disagree, but you're insinuating that those of us who disagree with you aren't looking at numbers and facts.  I can assure you, I have looked into this. 

Here is what I am basing my opinion on.

It is not an "invasion."  It's a caravan of refugees who plan on asking for asylum.   They have the right to do so, and by denying them to opportunity to REQUEST asylum (not grant it) we are breaking the Geneva convention.    We can't expect other countries to follow international law if we don't.   If they qualify, great, they stay.  If they don't, sorry, go home.  

People who request asylum are vetted, there are background checks, it's not like we let them in willy nilly. 

Illegal immingrants commit crimes are far lower rates than citizens.   

Illegal immigrants are not entitled to welfare benefits.   

What should be we about this?  Fund the fucking application process for asylum and send a bunch of immigration judges and people to do background checks to the border, not dudes with guns who would be acting out of their mandate if they shot these people.  

[Iggy aka IG]

Sorry if it seems like I'm insinuating.  Just stating my case.

[swamp]

Nov 9, 2018 12:26:29 GMT -5 Iggy aka IG said:

Sorry if it seems like I'm insinuating.  Just stating my case.

I get it, but don't say that you looked at the facts and I didn't.    You looked at them and came to a different conclusion.  

[Iggy aka IG]

Nov 9, 2018 12:28:13 GMT -5 swamp said:

Nov 9, 2018 12:26:29 GMT -5 Iggy aka IG said:

Sorry if it seems like I'm insinuating.  Just stating my case.

I get it, but don't say that you looked at the facts and I didn't.    You looked at them and came to a different conclusion.  

Something I've learned after being on these boards for so long, I'll never be able to read other posters' minds about what I should include in my statements or not.  Mea culpa. 

ETA:  I never said you didn't look at the facts, and please don't tell me what to say or not. 

[Gardening Grandma]

Nov 9, 2018 12:19:11 GMT -5 Iggy aka IG said:

Using the wise words of mmhmm earlier this week, it's okay if we have different opinions.  We're going to have to agree to disagree on this one.  I have a different viewpoint based on where I've lived and have seen in my lifetime, as well as looking at the numbers and facts.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion.  But not their own facts.  

[Gardening Grandma]

Nov 9, 2018 12:24:47 GMT -5 swamp said:

Nov 9, 2018 12:19:11 GMT -5 Iggy aka IG said:

Using the wise words of mmhmm earlier this week, it's okay if we have different opinions.  We're going to have to agree to disagree on this one.  I have a different viewpoint based on where I've lived and have seen in my lifetime, as well as looking at the numbers and facts.

I can agree to disagree, but you're insinuating that those of us who disagree with you aren't looking at numbers and facts.  I can assure you, I have looked into this. 

Here is what I am basing my opinion on.

It is not an "invasion."  It's a caravan of refugees who plan on asking for asylum.   They have the right to do so, and by denying them to opportunity to REQUEST asylum (not grant it) we are breaking the Geneva convention.    We can't expect other countries to follow international law if we don't.   If they qualify, great, they stay.  If they don't, sorry, go home.  

People who request asylum are vetted, there are background checks, it's not like we let them in willy nilly. 

Illegal immingrants commit crimes are far lower rates than citizens.   

Illegal immigrants are not entitled to welfare benefits.   

What should be we about this?  Fund the fucking application process for asylum and send a bunch of immigration judges and people to do background checks to the border, not dudes with guns who would be acting out of their mandate if they shot these people.  

this needs to reposted a number of times.  The above  aren't opinions.  They are proven facts.

[bean29]

I thought a large majority of our drugs were coming from china now?

[andi9899]

Just got off the phone with the assistant of a client I have in Mexico City. These people pay us tens of thousands in American dollars per month. They surely have been to the US at some point, but live in Mexico. They cause no trouble to anyone. If these people were to want to move here, should we also turn them away? Or just the equivalent to the US 1% should be allowed in the US?

[Tennesseer]

Nov 9, 2018 12:55:56 GMT -5 andi9899 said:

Just got off the phone with the assistant of a client I have in Mexico City. These people pay us tens of thousands in American dollars per month. They surely have been to the US at some point, but live in Mexico. They cause no trouble to anyone. If these people were to want to move here, should we also turn them away? Or just the equivalent to the US 1% should be allowed in the US?

Brown? Turn down.

[Value Buy]

Nov 9, 2018 12:28:13 GMT -5 swamp said:

Nov 9, 2018 12:26:29 GMT -5 Iggy aka IG said:

Sorry if it seems like I'm insinuating.  Just stating my case.

I get it, but don't say that you looked at the facts and I didn't.    You looked at them and came to a different conclusion.  

Google is your friend.

www.therecoveryvillage.com/drug-addiction/drug-trafficking-by-the-numbers/
from the arrticle:
Mexico’s involvement in the illicit drug trade in the United States:

Marijuana: Mexico is the number one foreign supplier of marijuana to the United States, and marijuana is thought to be the top revenue generator for Mexican drug cartels.

Cocaine: Mexico does not produce cocaine, however, Mexican cartels move Columbian cocaine through South and Central America and into the United States. An estimated 93 percent of cocaine headed to the US from South America moves through Mexico.

Methamphetamine: Mexico remains the biggest foreign supplier of methamphetamine to the United States, and Mexican drug cartels set up labs to manufacture meth on both sides of the border, controlling labs in Southern California as well as domestically.

Heroin: While Asia and the Middle East remain the biggest producers of heroin, Mexican black-tar and brown heroin is on the rise. In fact, 39 percent of heroin identified under the DEA’s Heroin Signature Program (HSP) in 2008 came from Mexico, making Mexico the source country for many of the heroin abusers west of the Mississippi River.[14]

[andi9899]

Nov 12, 2018 7:31:29 GMT -5 Value Buy said:

Nov 9, 2018 12:28:13 GMT -5 swamp said:

I get it, but don't say that you looked at the facts and I didn't.    You looked at them and came to a different conclusion.  

Google is your friend.

www.therecoveryvillage.com/drug-addiction/drug-trafficking-by-the-numbers/
from the arrticle:
Mexico’s involvement in the illicit drug trade in the United States:

Marijuana: Mexico is the number one foreign supplier of marijuana to the United States, and marijuana is thought to be the top revenue generator for Mexican drug cartels.

Cocaine: Mexico does not produce cocaine, however, Mexican cartels move Columbian cocaine through South and Central America and into the United States. An estimated 93 percent of cocaine headed to the US from South America moves through Mexico.

Methamphetamine: Mexico remains the biggest foreign supplier of methamphetamine to the United States, and Mexican drug cartels set up labs to manufacture meth on both sides of the border, controlling labs in Southern California as well as domestically.

Heroin: While Asia and the Middle East remain the biggest producers of heroin, Mexican black-tar and brown heroin is on the rise. In fact, 39 percent of heroin identified under the DEA’s Heroin Signature Program (HSP) in 2008 came from Mexico, making Mexico the source country for many of the heroin abusers west of the Mississippi River.[14]

From your article. 73.7 percent of drug smugglers in 2013 which is the year the article focuses on were American citizens:

Busted drug traffickers in 2013 were primarily male, approximately 85.8 percent with an average age of 35 years; 73.7 percent were US citizens and almost half, 49.5 percent, had little to no prior criminal history.[7] The majority of drug trafficking offenders arrested in 2013 were Hispanic, at 47.9 percent, while 26.7 percent were black, 22.3 percent were white, and 3.1 percent were other races.[8] Almost all drug trafficking offenders sentenced in 2013 went to prison, 96.3 percent, with an average sentence length of 72 months.[9]Sentences varied depending on the type of drug trafficked, with the biggest penalties for crack cocaine and meth, and the lightest sentences for marijuana-related offenses.[10]

[Value Buy]

Nov 12, 2018 7:38:34 GMT -5 andi9899 said:

Nov 12, 2018 7:31:29 GMT -5 Value Buy said:

Google is your friend.

www.therecoveryvillage.com/drug-addiction/drug-trafficking-by-the-numbers/
from the arrticle:
Mexico’s involvement in the illicit drug trade in the United States:

Marijuana: Mexico is the number one foreign supplier of marijuana to the United States, and marijuana is thought to be the top revenue generator for Mexican drug cartels.

Cocaine: Mexico does not produce cocaine, however, Mexican cartels move Columbian cocaine through South and Central America and into the United States. An estimated 93 percent of cocaine headed to the US from South America moves through Mexico.

Methamphetamine: Mexico remains the biggest foreign supplier of methamphetamine to the United States, and Mexican drug cartels set up labs to manufacture meth on both sides of the border, controlling labs in Southern California as well as domestically.

Heroin: While Asia and the Middle East remain the biggest producers of heroin, Mexican black-tar and brown heroin is on the rise. In fact, 39 percent of heroin identified under the DEA’s Heroin Signature Program (HSP) in 2008 came from Mexico, making Mexico the source country for many of the heroin abusers west of the Mississippi River.[14]

From your article. 73.7 percent of drug smugglers in 2013 which is the year the article focuses on were American citizens:

Busted drug traffickers in 2013 were primarily male, approximately 85.8 percent with an average age of 35 years; 73.7 percent were US citizens and almost half, 49.5 percent, had little to no prior criminal history.[7] The majority of drug trafficking offenders arrested in 2013 were Hispanic, at 47.9 percent, while 26.7 percent were black, 22.3 percent were white, and 3.1 percent were other races.[8] Almost all drug trafficking offenders sentenced in 2013 went to prison, 96.3 percent, with an average sentence length of 72 months.[9]Sentences varied depending on the type of drug trafficked, with the biggest penalties for crack cocaine and meth, and the lightest sentences for marijuana-related offenses.[10]

Very true, I am not sure whether the drug bust numbers are from only the border, or whether they include the numbers of busts made across the country while transferring the drugs nationally, but I was responding to Swamp who stated the border was not the problem with drug smuggling in an earlier post. I actually quoted the wrong post. here is the correct one where Swamp stated meth is not coming from Mexico in post 133:


meth is made locally, not imported.



Heroin and cocaine do come in front elsewhere, though.

[Value Buy]

Nov 9, 2018 11:07:21 GMT -5 bean29 said:

Nov 9, 2018 10:29:55 GMT -5 Value Buy said:

You stated they do not receive benefits and foodstamps.
I gave you a link, and all you have is a quote from the article stating we should secure the border, verify imigrant status and recognize forged documents sounds quite a bit of what Trump wants to do.

The illegal immigrant is not receiving the benefits, the WIC is for the child as are the food stamps they are collecting.

If you believe all the wic and food stamp money is spent just on the children, and not the adults, you are really not going to accept any argument on illegal immigration.