Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jun 29, 2017 18:45:13 GMT -5
And I just hear Gira saying it isn't up to her and she's open to accepting her kids as they are... I said I wasn't speaking about Gira. Just a general comment
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raeoflyte
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Post by raeoflyte on Jun 29, 2017 19:08:15 GMT -5
When I was young I was not girly at all. I hated dolls, I hated dresses, etc. Then I hit puberty and turned boy crazy. I'm not high maintenance but I would I'm not low maintenance either My issue is that now a days we even wonder if our child isn't the gender they were born long before a child has any clue. I was probably a Tom boy in certain ways but that certainly didn't mean I wasn't a girl. Now it seems that parents push their kids to identify as other than what they are. I don't mean that about you. Just that I've read articles about very young kids taking on a different gender even before puberty. It seems to be the "in" thing now I agree with what Giramomma is saying, but I also agree with MT. When I read those articles, and people are encouraging/allowing their young children to start the gender reassignment process, I am scandalized. I can not help but think what if they are wrong...it just seems like a decision that should be made on a well thought out basis as an adult.
But like Girammomma, I had days when I looked at one of my kids and had my doubts about their sexuality. I decided I was horrified by the thought of them committing suicide b/c people were not accepting of who they are, so I try to maintain an accepting demeanor and have an open mind. I also feel very strongly about marriage equality.
They don't put the kids on hormones, or put them under a knife because of a passing comment. They may decide to put them on medications that will delay puberty, but that is as extreme as it gets until late teens. These kids are also under all kinds of medical supervision. It's not a 20 minute appointment and suddenly mom and dad are injecting testosterone into their 8 year old.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jun 29, 2017 19:43:10 GMT -5
I don't see anyone pushing their kid to be something they aren't. I do see a lot more acceptance of behaviors outside of "normal" gender line boundaries. I knew of a few kids in school that looked like they could have confused gender. As far as I know not one of them has switched genders, even though it is accepted now. But I read stories about parents of fairly young children accepting that a child knows that they are the wrong gender. I just don't believe that suddenly we have all these gender identity issues that I never heard of growing up. Some might be valid but I can't help but think that parents latch onto it to it now so they can't be accused of not listening to their child. I'm not talking teenagers. I'm talking younger kids. It makes me shake my head
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Jun 29, 2017 20:26:20 GMT -5
Shoot. I had a whole big post and I lost it. To Sum up: Oberlin's had unisex bathrooms in the dorms 20+ years ago. People dealt. A good friend of mine went there for undergrad. She found it to be no big deal. Unisex rooms are not all that new-fangled. Gender fluidity: I have a boy that does not act very boyish: not into sports until really late (and not very good at sports), at 13 he's not into porn/girls/taking 30 minute showers, building things, anything mechanical. Hates science and math. He's sensitive as all hell and doesn't like to touch gross thing. I have a girl that is not very girlish: won't wear a dress except for 20 minutes once a year, won't play with dolls, but will play with all the neat boy toys her brother never did. She doesn't mind touching gross things. She's interested in using tools and all things mechanical. And she's going to be my sporty kid. It would not surprise me, at some point if my DS and the peanut come out as gay or identify with different genders than their sex organs. It's just not who they are. DS talks about getting married and having kids and I'm like, really...are you sure? And as a parent, I don't have many choices. I mean my choices are to accept my kids for who they are or drive them away because they aren't clinging to gender stereo-types. I'm not interested in sinking time and energy into raising them only to behave in such a way that my adult kids tell me "Sure, you did some nice things for us, but you sure were an asshole. You kept pushing me to be someone I'm not because you couldn't accept the fact that I don't identify with my gender. I don't want to be around that, nor do I want my kids to be around that." That means, I will have failed as a parent. When I was young I was not girly at all. I hated dolls, I hated dresses, etc. Then I hit puberty and turned boy crazy. I'm not high maintenance but I would I'm not low maintenance either My issue is that now a days we even wonder if our child isn't the gender they were born long before a child has any clue. I was probably a Tom boy in certain ways but that certainly didn't mean I wasn't a girl. Now it seems that parents push their kids to identify as other than what they are.
I don't mean that about you. Just that I've read articles about very young kids taking on a different gender even before puberty. It seems to be the "in" thing now Do you have any evidence that parents are "pushing" these kids as opposed to just being more open-minded, informed and accepting?
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Jun 29, 2017 20:34:02 GMT -5
Gender and sexuality are different. Most people who strongly identify with the gender opposite their physical construction know at a very young age. Exactly!
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Jun 29, 2017 20:39:30 GMT -5
I don't see anyone pushing their kid to be something they aren't. I do see a lot more acceptance of behaviors outside of "normal" gender line boundaries. I knew of a few kids in school that looked like they could have confused gender. As far as I know not one of them has switched genders, even though it is accepted now. But I read stories about parents of fairly young children accepting that a child knows that they are the wrong gender. I just don't believe that suddenly we have all these gender identity issues that I never heard of growing up. Some might be valid but I can't help but think that parents latch onto it to it now so they can't be accused of not listening to their child. I'm not talking teenagers. I'm talking younger kids. It makes me shake my head They also didn't have PTSD or Asperger's when you were growing up. At least when I was growing up. These things always existed, but not identified, and often not spoken about. Two elderly women living together? "Oh, they're companions, saving money." They were lesbians. Now we TALK about it.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Jun 29, 2017 20:47:08 GMT -5
Is there anyone who really likes getting naked in a locker room?
I think we need to regulate that more than we regulate who can see whose naughty bits. People who want to get naked in front of strangers are the weirdos. LOL! But I do remember several posters saying changing in a group setting was no big deal (in one of the other arguments we had about this). I KNEW there was something wrong with them For some it might not be a problem. Getting nekkid in front of strangers is not on my bucket list of things I've just got to do. In high school, I was almost expelled for flatly refusing to shower in the open, group showers provided. Thankfully, my parents stepped up to the plate and batted 1000. I was placed in a last period gym class so I could shower when I got home. Yay, parents!
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ken a.k.a OMK
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They killed Kenny, the bastards.
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Post by ken a.k.a OMK on Jun 29, 2017 20:53:53 GMT -5
When I was in high school in the 60's I thought girls showered with T-shirts on for privacy. The boys showered naked. I was on the track team and we just talked during showering. Oh and a few slapping/snapping of towels at rear ends.
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bean29
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Post by bean29 on Jun 29, 2017 20:59:20 GMT -5
Ray, I did not mean to imply I think you have done anything less than what is best for your son. I am pretty sure your child is a teenager and you are far enough into this that you know you are doing the right thing.
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muttleynfelix
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Post by muttleynfelix on Jun 29, 2017 21:11:46 GMT -5
Ray, I did not mean to imply I think you have done anything less than what is best for your son. I am pretty sure your child is a teenager and you are far enough into this that you know you are doing the right thing. Not her son, her husband.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Jun 29, 2017 21:40:43 GMT -5
I knew of a few kids in school that looked like they could have confused gender. As far as I know not one of them has switched genders, even though it is accepted now. But I read stories about parents of fairly young children accepting that a child knows that they are the wrong gender. I just don't believe that suddenly we have all these gender identity issues that I never heard of growing up. Some might be valid but I can't help but think that parents latch onto it to it now so they can't be accused of not listening to their child. I'm not talking teenagers. I'm talking younger kids. It makes me shake my head They also didn't have PTSD or Asperger's when you were growing up. At least when I was growing up. These things always existed, but not identified, and often not spoken about. Two elderly women living together? "Oh, they're companions, saving money." They were lesbians. Now we TALK about it. It was called a Boston marriage.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jun 29, 2017 21:50:06 GMT -5
When I was young I was not girly at all. I hated dolls, I hated dresses, etc. Then I hit puberty and turned boy crazy. I'm not high maintenance but I would I'm not low maintenance either My issue is that now a days we even wonder if our child isn't the gender they were born long before a child has any clue. I was probably a Tom boy in certain ways but that certainly didn't mean I wasn't a girl. Now it seems that parents push their kids to identify as other than what they are.
I don't mean that about you. Just that I've read articles about very young kids taking on a different gender even before puberty. It seems to be the "in" thing now Do you have any evidence that parents are "pushing" these kids as opposed to just being more open-minded, informed and accepting? No. Do you have evidence that they aren't pushing them?
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chiver78
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Post by chiver78 on Jun 29, 2017 22:10:25 GMT -5
They also didn't have PTSD or Asperger's when you were growing up. At least when I was growing up. These things always existed, but not identified, and often not spoken about. Two elderly women living together? "Oh, they're companions, saving money." They were lesbians. Now we TALK about it. It was called a Boston marriage. I believe that term originated with Katharine Lee Bates, who was from MA, yes?
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chiver78
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Post by chiver78 on Jun 29, 2017 22:14:10 GMT -5
Do you have any evidence that parents are "pushing" these kids as opposed to just being more open-minded, informed and accepting? No. Do you have evidence that they aren't pushing them? there have been a number of articles posted around the boards about different single cases, where the parents admit to a fair amount of soul searching before allowing their child to present as their identified gender. I'm not exactly sure where. one that comes to mind is Jacob, and an open letter written by his mother, for his 5th birthday. if you don't find a Boston Globe link via Google (I'm on my phone, I can't figure out how to copy a link that way) I can share tomorrow, if someone else doesn't share first.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Jun 29, 2017 22:58:44 GMT -5
Do you have any evidence that parents are "pushing" these kids as opposed to just being more open-minded, informed and accepting? No. Do you have evidence that they aren't pushing them? Only anecdotal, from parents who were first in denial when their 6 yr old children insisted they were meant to be girls. Then fear, because it's not an easy life for anyone, and nobody wishes hardship n their children. Lots of bullying and suicides. Then acceptance with education and support groups. I've never heard of any parents actively pushing this on their kids.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Jun 29, 2017 23:12:31 GMT -5
It was called a Boston marriage. I believe that term originated with Katharine Lee Bates, who was from MA, yes? While Lee Bates was in a relationship which was called a Boston Marriage, the origin of the term is unknown. Boston Marriage was never a term used by Henry James, but Boston Marriage is associated with his book, The Bostonians (1886).
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jun 30, 2017 5:21:26 GMT -5
No. Do you have evidence that they aren't pushing them? Only anecdotal, from parents who were first in denial when their 6 yr old children insisted they were meant to be girls. Then fear, because it's not an easy life for anyone, and nobody wishes hardship n their children. Lots of bullying and suicides. Then acceptance with education and support groups. I've never heard of any parents actively pushing this on their kids. At 6 my daughter thought she was a princess. She wanted to wear a tiara and her princess dress all the time. Should I have let her believe she was a princess because she really thought she was? I didn't and guess what, she is now a very well-adjusted 18 year old who knows she is not royalty.
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Ava
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Post by Ava on Jun 30, 2017 7:13:56 GMT -5
.... I believe the Trump presidency is a direct result of the decline in education and critical thinking of the majority of the population. .... Before I started seeking out and actively listening (and it was sometimes really, really hard to just listen with a neutral expression and not reply) to Trump supporters, I would have agreed with this. But after listening to dozens of Trump supporters, I don't agree that in general they are uneducated or lack critical thinking skills. Most of the ones I talked to were highly intelligent and educated (many were more intelligent and educated than I am), but they had different basic beliefs about the issues in this country and what the priorities are. Many of them disliked Trump personally but were less concerned with that than other issues. And one of the main reasons the general media polls were so wrong in predicting the election was exactly that attitude. Trump supporters got tired of being labeled as ignorant rubes, so just stopped discussing their thoughts and plans with the general media. Unless and until the general media gets better at listening to ideas they disagree with and not labeling people who think differently as ignorant, uncaring, selfish jerks (similar to the tone in the article in the OP), it will be difficult for the general media to report accurately because people will be reluctant to discuss issues with them. I'm an independent and I love voting. To me, it's an essential part of a democratic system and it saddens me that so many people refuse to participate, regardless of who they would vote for. I take voting very seriously. Before every election I research all the candidates, whether they are republican, democratic or independent. When I looked into Trump I found a cheat, a bully, a misogynist, someone who would stiff contractors and business partners, someone who would mock a disabled reporter, etc. You say some voters picked him because of his stances in certain issues. Who in their right mind believes constructing a wall is an intelligent solution to the immigration problems? What about his promise that he would make healthcare cheaper, better, and cover everyone but he wouldn't give any details until he was elected? Where is his plan? Haven't seen it yet. What about his rallies and inciting his followers to violence? I'm not particularly intelligent, but he turned me off right away. Sorry, but nobody with a good educational level and good critical thinking skills would choose this guy.
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milee
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Post by milee on Jun 30, 2017 7:40:59 GMT -5
Before I started seeking out and actively listening (and it was sometimes really, really hard to just listen with a neutral expression and not reply) to Trump supporters, I would have agreed with this. But after listening to dozens of Trump supporters, I don't agree that in general they are uneducated or lack critical thinking skills. Most of the ones I talked to were highly intelligent and educated (many were more intelligent and educated than I am), but they had different basic beliefs about the issues in this country and what the priorities are. Many of them disliked Trump personally but were less concerned with that than other issues. And one of the main reasons the general media polls were so wrong in predicting the election was exactly that attitude. Trump supporters got tired of being labeled as ignorant rubes, so just stopped discussing their thoughts and plans with the general media. Unless and until the general media gets better at listening to ideas they disagree with and not labeling people who think differently as ignorant, uncaring, selfish jerks (similar to the tone in the article in the OP), it will be difficult for the general media to report accurately because people will be reluctant to discuss issues with them. I'm an independent and I love voting. To me, it's an essential part of a democratic system and it saddens me that so many people refuse to participate, regardless of who they would vote for. I take voting very seriously. Before every election I research all the candidates, whether they are republican, democratic or independent. When I looked into Trump I found a cheat, a bully, a misogynist, someone who would stiff contractors and business partners, someone who would mock a disabled reporter, etc. You say some voters picked him because of his stances in certain issues. Who in their right mind believes constructing a wall is an intelligent solution to the immigration problems? What about his promise that he would make healthcare cheaper, better, and cover everyone but he wouldn't give any details until he was elected? Where is his plan? Haven't seen it yet. What about his rallies and inciting his followers to violence? I'm not particularly intelligent, but he turned me off right away. Sorry, but nobody with a good educational level and good critical thinking skills would choose this guy. If you're unwilling or unable to comprehend the views of others, that is a problem because you are missing parts of the information you would need to exercise good critical thinking skills. Tough to solve issues or reach solutions when you are missing key data.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2017 7:47:53 GMT -5
What about when their views are outright lies?
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milee
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Post by milee on Jun 30, 2017 8:03:04 GMT -5
Or when they're just posting provocative or nasty things because they're hurt and angry and want to poke back?
Same answer. If your research indicates that lies are the main reason, then at least you have the information you need to understand what's going on. The way to understand and respond to a group that's being influenced by lies is different than how one might understand and respond to a group that's just lashing out because they're hurt and angry.
I don't think we can begin to solve anything until we understand what we don't agree with. It's doubtful that understanding it will suddenly make us agree, but understanding the "why" is part of the process in forming solutions.
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giramomma
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Post by giramomma on Jun 30, 2017 10:04:49 GMT -5
Do you hear yourself? Ask yourself what intelligent person would bother working with, discussing anything, or listening to what you have to say when you insult them straight out. Your comment is very ignorant in my opinion. I agree with this. I don't agree with how our state is being run. However, I get even more frustrated when our governor has good ideas that don't fall in line with typical republican thinking. One of the things Walker wanted to do was make some state aid reduced gradually, instead of have a cliff of all or nothing. I was like "OMG! He's reading here and listening to us!" And I got super excited. Nothing ever came from it. It's not a popular sound bite. His proposal for self-insurance for state workers shouldn't have even been a thing. Many other states have moved to that model..The private sector is/has moved to some form of partial self-insurance. But the legislators said no. I don't get it.
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raeoflyte
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Post by raeoflyte on Jun 30, 2017 10:25:28 GMT -5
Only anecdotal, from parents who were first in denial when their 6 yr old children insisted they were meant to be girls. Then fear, because it's not an easy life for anyone, and nobody wishes hardship n their children. Lots of bullying and suicides. Then acceptance with education and support groups. I've never heard of any parents actively pushing this on their kids. At 6 my daughter thought she was a princess. She wanted to wear a tiara and her princess dress all the time. Should I have let her believe she was a princess because she really thought she was? I didn't and guess what, she is now a very well-adjusted 18 year old who knows she is not royalty. My 4 year old says she's part cat. I don't know where she came up with it, but it's a game just like your daughter and the princess stuff. But feeling like you're in the wrong body isn't the same thing. Just a fraction of time talking to people who have transitioned, or are thinking about transitioning, or aren't going to transition but just don't fit the mold of what a man or a woman is supposed to be and their daily interactions with people I would think would be a little bit eye opening that it isn't easy, or fun, or something done because it's trendy. Almost everyone who transitions talks about knowing there was a problem at a very young age. Just because they had to conform so we didn't see it, doesn't mean this just started happening. I've tried really hard to stay away from this topic on the boards entirely. I wish I knew how to explain even how I interpret what it is like for people affected. It's pointless to try because I'll get the canned response that I can live anyway I want, and then see post after post that reminds me why I rarely out dh to anyone. Once I do, plenty of people see him as a woman or a freak no matter how much they respected him before they knew.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2017 10:39:32 GMT -5
Or when they're just posting provocative or nasty things because they're hurt and angry and want to poke back? Same answer. If your research indicates that lies are the main reason, then at least you have the information you need to understand what's going on. The way to understand and respond to a group that's being influenced by lies is different than how one might understand and respond to a group that's just lashing out because they're hurt and angry. I don't think we can begin to solve anything until we understand what we don't agree with. It's doubtful that understanding it will suddenly make us agree, but understanding the "why" is part of the process in forming solutions. I do listen. I do understand. I realize that for the most part, I and the people around me want to live in fundamentally different countries. Just FYI, what is it that you think I'm angry about?
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giramomma
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Post by giramomma on Jun 30, 2017 10:51:24 GMT -5
But even though you and I don't agree on some things, that doesn't mean I dismiss you and your opinions out of hand and call you stupid. Which is what Ava did. Although I give her credit for being honest. Most people would couch their true feelings in general statements. She made it very clear what her opinion is. Although, I do hope that she understands that she loses the opportunity to expand her knowledge and understanding, which will relegate her to ignorance. It's also, getting back to the original article, what that writer did and will result in the same consequences. I also think some of it is being naive. MOST people in power/have great wealth/do great things don't leave squeaky/moral/principled lives.. Never have, never will. To judge them solely on that..well... I remember when we went to visit the MLK national sites down in Atlanta. I was shocked that he diddled on his wife. You'd think for all what he tried to do, he'd at least make the effort to keep his pants zipped. But, after I read about that, I didn't feel like he was less of a civil rights leader because he couldn't keep his pants up. It just made me think about how fallible people in general can be.
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bean29
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Post by bean29 on Jun 30, 2017 11:06:08 GMT -5
Ray, I did not mean to imply I think you have done anything less than what is best for your son. I am pretty sure your child is a teenager and you are far enough into this that you know you are doing the right thing. Not her son, her husband. I knew I hadn't delved into those threads thouroghly enough. Sorry Ray.
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giramomma
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Post by giramomma on Jun 30, 2017 11:24:54 GMT -5
I could totally relate to the Priest I was having dinner with talking about their kid who was doing stupid kid stuff and getting into kid normal trouble. When my music kiddos don't behave and the parents apologize, I tell the parents that I actually enjoy seeing that sort of behavior..because it makes me feel better when my kids behave the same way.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Jun 30, 2017 13:35:39 GMT -5
Only anecdotal, from parents who were first in denial when their 6 yr old children insisted they were meant to be girls. Then fear, because it's not an easy life for anyone, and nobody wishes hardship n their children. Lots of bullying and suicides. Then acceptance with education and support groups. I've never heard of any parents actively pushing this on their kids. At 6 my daughter thought she was a princess. She wanted to wear a tiara and her princess dress all the time. Should I have let her believe she was a princess because she really thought she was? I didn't and guess what, she is now a very well-adjusted 18 year old who knows she is not royalty. Not the same thing at all. You clearly do not understand transgenderism.
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chiver78
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Post by chiver78 on Jun 30, 2017 13:46:25 GMT -5
I also think some of it is being naive. MOST people in power/have great wealth/do great things don't leave squeaky/moral/principled lives.. Never have, never will. To judge them solely on that..well... I remember when we went to visit the MLK national sites down in Atlanta. I was shocked that he diddled on his wife. You'd think for all what he tried to do, he'd at least make the effort to keep his pants zipped. But, after I read about that, I didn't feel like he was less of a civil rights leader because he couldn't keep his pants up. It just made me think about how fallible people in general can be.Isn't that the truth. I'm unsure why we (global we) are so hung up on our leaders and public personalities being the pinnacle of moral superiority. Maybe I'm crazy, but I want people leading who are normal. I want presidents to have bratty kids who get in trouble, I love that my vet has 2 of the most rambunctious and hard to control dogs, I could totally relate to the Priest I was having dinner with talking about their kid who was doing stupid kid stuff and getting into kid normal trouble. I'm usually pretty skeptical of anyone who who claims moral or ethical superiority to anyone else. Usually it's the people who admit they aren't perfect and they screw up who have the highest standards in morals and ethics and are the most honest. I remember talking with MrSroo about Walker (MrSroo hates him). He was saying something about the epic John Doe investigation and I had to remind him that neither of us could survive that intense and long scrutiny and come out clean. Hell I'd have probably been in jail for stupid things 5 times over if my life was put under the same microscope.
speaking solely for myself, although I would doubt I'm alone in my opinion - I have a hard time listening to what feels like morality lectures from the evangelical right in their proposed legislation, when they very publicly prove that they are not practicing what they have preached. why should I support you in your efforts to "clean up" the morals of the country, the details of which I completely disagree with, when you can't even follow what you're proposing. just my two cents. YMMV
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