milee
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Post by milee on Jun 29, 2017 8:42:29 GMT -5
Um, just to be clear, that quote in post #61 above was NOT mine. No, it was Ava. But for some reason, when I manually try to remove the empty quote box that was embedded in her post (she quoted you and replied), it won't let me remove the part that shows your name.
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buystoys
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Post by buystoys on Jun 29, 2017 9:14:15 GMT -5
Sorry if I offend someone here who voted for Trump, but I believe the Trump presidency is a direct result of the decline in education and critical thinking of the majority of the population. That coupled with an archaic election system that needs to be changed. I remember last year going to vote for the internal elections. There was a table with two people sitting, and I wasn't sure if it was the Dem or Republican table, so I approached it to find out. They told me it was the Republican table. The two people sitting there, volunteers probably, were black women. Really? Two black women in a poor neighborhood volunteering for the Republican Party. And by the way, where I live is mostly poor people and minorities. Trump won the Republican internals in my area. With respect to the article, it expresses my exact feelings in a more articulate way I could ever come up with. Statements like the bolded are exactly why there will continue to be division in our country. Anyone who chooses to believe that the majority of the population is uneducated and incapable of thought has an elitist attitude that is resented by that majority. Even though I would NEVER vote for HRC, I don't think people who did are incapable of considered thought. I just recognize that not everyone wants the country to go in the same direction and people have different priorities when selecting a President. Why wouldn't two black women in a poor neighborhood volunteer for the Republican Party? Do you believe party affiliation has anything to do with color, religion, sexual preference, income, or sex? Why should it? Shouldn't people align with a party platform they support rather than choosing a party because of a characteristic listed above?
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swamp
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THEY’RE EATING THE DOGS!!!!!!!
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Post by swamp on Jun 29, 2017 9:30:46 GMT -5
I want to thank Dem and Milee for reasonable and rational discourse.
I'm not as angry today, but I do think there are too many on the right who have the "fuck you, I've got mine" attitude. I also think there are too many on the left who have the "the government needs to pay for everything" mindset.
Where did the moderates go? Are they out there, but don't get an audience because we're boring?
As far as Trump, I don't think everyone who voted for him is stupid, I think they felt left behind. However, the ones that continue to think he can do nothing wrong, and say he's being picked on for pointing out his verbal inconsistencies, now they worry me.
ETA: I also wonder about the Trump supporters (i.e. Medicaid recipients) who are going to get hosed if healthcare reform, as presented, passes.
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movingforward
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Post by movingforward on Jun 29, 2017 9:34:46 GMT -5
I want to thank Dem and Milee for reasonable and rational discourse.
I'm not as angry today, but I do think there are too many on the right who have the "fuck you, I've got mine" attitude. I also think there are too many on the left who have the "the government needs to pay for everything" mindset.
Where did the moderates go? Are they out there, but don't get an audience because we're boring?
As far as Trump, I don't think everyone who voted for him is stupid, I think they felt left behind. However, the ones that continue to think he can do nothing wrong, and say he's being picked on for pointing out his verbal inconsistencies, now they worry me.
ETA: I also wonder about the Trump supporters (i.e. Medicaid recipients) who are going to get hosed if healthcare reform, as presented, passes. x100
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Jun 29, 2017 9:35:30 GMT -5
As far as media goes: I try to stay informed, but there are only so many hours in the day. I really like WaPo, WSJ, Forbes and The Atlantic. Huff Po comes up on my FB feed a lot, and I like their stories. But they are stories, not reporting. NYT is really starting to lean left, While I may support their conclusions, I also realize what is going on.
I just want some news. Give me facts. Let me interpret them. BBC American and CBC seem to be the best sources right now.
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milee
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Post by milee on Jun 29, 2017 9:39:21 GMT -5
Sounds nutty, but Al Jazeera is also a reasonable source, especially on international issues.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Jun 29, 2017 9:41:21 GMT -5
Sounds nutty, but Al Jazeera is also a reasonable source, especially on international issues. I don't think I've ever watched Al Jazeera, I'll have to take a look. Thanks.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jun 29, 2017 9:42:44 GMT -5
I want to thank Dem and Milee for reasonable and rational discourse.
I'm not as angry today, but I do think there are too many on the right who have the "fuck you, I've got mine" attitude. I also think there are too many on the left who have the "the government needs to pay for everything" mindset.
Where did the moderates go? Are they out there, but don't get an audience because we're boring?
As far as Trump, I don't think everyone who voted for him is stupid, I think they felt left behind. However, the ones that continue to think he can do nothing wrong, and say he's being picked on for pointing out his verbal inconsistencies, now they worry me.
ETA: I also wonder about the Trump supporters (i.e. Medicaid recipients) who are going to get hosed if healthcare reform, as presented, passes. Probably just as pissed as those who voted for Obama and got hosed under Obamacare...pissed off and will vote against him next time.
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swamp
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THEY’RE EATING THE DOGS!!!!!!!
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Post by swamp on Jun 29, 2017 9:44:33 GMT -5
I want to thank Dem and Milee for reasonable and rational discourse.
I'm not as angry today, but I do think there are too many on the right who have the "fuck you, I've got mine" attitude. I also think there are too many on the left who have the "the government needs to pay for everything" mindset.
Where did the moderates go? Are they out there, but don't get an audience because we're boring?
As far as Trump, I don't think everyone who voted for him is stupid, I think they felt left behind. However, the ones that continue to think he can do nothing wrong, and say he's being picked on for pointing out his verbal inconsistencies, now they worry me.
ETA: I also wonder about the Trump supporters (i.e. Medicaid recipients) who are going to get hosed if healthcare reform, as presented, passes. Probably just as pissed as those who voted for Obama and got hosed under Obamacare...pissed off and will vote against him next time.
I think the ACA was a bit more of an unknown. Now, it's pretty clear that Healthcare reform is going to seriously curtail Medicaid, and there are people on Medicaid who support it. Mind boggling.
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Rukh O'Rorke
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Post by Rukh O'Rorke on Jun 29, 2017 9:46:09 GMT -5
I want to thank Dem and Milee for reasonable and rational discourse.
I'm not as angry today, but I do think there are too many on the right who have the "fuck you, I've got mine" attitude. I also think there are too many on the left who have the "the government needs to pay for everything" mindset.
Where did the moderates go? Are they out there, but don't get an audience because we're boring?
As far as Trump, I don't think everyone who voted for him is stupid, I think they felt left behind. However, the ones that continue to think he can do nothing wrong, and say he's being picked on for pointing out his verbal inconsistencies, now they worry me.
ETA: I also wonder about the Trump supporters (i.e. Medicaid recipients) who are going to get hosed if healthcare reform, as presented, passes. Ted Cruz ended my time as a swing voter.....
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milee
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Post by milee on Jun 29, 2017 9:46:28 GMT -5
Sounds nutty, but Al Jazeera is also a reasonable source, especially on international issues. I don't think I've ever watched Al Jazeera, I'll have to take a look. Thanks.
I rarely watch anything, just read. Started reading more Al Jazeera after the Arab Spring events a few years ago. Their coverage was really good - balanced, interesting, showed many facets to the stories.
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movingforward
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Post by movingforward on Jun 29, 2017 9:47:24 GMT -5
There is only so much news I can actually take...What I can read in 20-30 minutes is what I get for the day. At this point in my life I watch very little news. Limiting exposure makes me a happier person. If that makes me uninformed, etc. then so be it...emotionally I can only take so much.
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milee
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Post by milee on Jun 29, 2017 9:48:31 GMT -5
Probably just as pissed as those who voted for Obama and got hosed under Obamacare...pissed off and will vote against him next time.
I think the ACA was a bit more of an unknown. Now, it's pretty clear that Healthcare reform is going to seriously curtail Medicaid, and there are people on Medicaid who support it. Mind boggling. Or... some of them are willing to support something that costs them more personally if it's what they believe is the right thing to do for the nation. Isn't that what the author in the article referenced in the OP mentions - that people need to be willing to support things that cost them personally if those things are what is good for the nation as a whole? Why is it when a "liberal" votes against their self interest it's "self sacrifice for the common good" and when a "conservative" does it, it's because they're stupid?
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Lizard Queen
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103/2024
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Post by Lizard Queen on Jun 29, 2017 9:49:45 GMT -5
I want to thank Dem and Milee for reasonable and rational discourse.
I'm not as angry today, but I do think there are too many on the right who have the "fuck you, I've got mine" attitude. I also think there are too many on the left who have the "the government needs to pay for everything" mindset.
Where did the moderates go? Are they out there, but don't get an audience because we're boring?
As far as Trump, I don't think everyone who voted for him is stupid, I think they felt left behind. However, the ones that continue to think he can do nothing wrong, and say he's being picked on for pointing out his verbal inconsistencies, now they worry me.
ETA: I also wonder about the Trump supporters (i.e. Medicaid recipients) who are going to get hosed if healthcare reform, as presented, passes. I'm a moderate--used to really take an interest in politics. Now I'm disgusted by most of it. I think single payer is the only logical way to go for healthcare, and the way I read this article, it was in direct response to the bills out there decreasing taxes on millionaires while many of the most vulnerable will lose insurance. But anyway, the way all media is going is to give voices to the most extreme views in order to get attention, pushing the consumers of such media to the extremes as well. I just read and listen to a very limited amount of news these days, trying to pick out only the facts. Opinions are like a$$holes--everyone has one.
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Jun 29, 2017 9:55:44 GMT -5
I have been on a long hiatus from news/politics because of the OP. I'm just tired of hearing people spew ignorance and not even fathoming that there might be another way to look at things. I pride myself on being able to see both sides of the coin in most issues, and it's a shame that a lot of folks can't or refuse to do the same.
When I was really into politics/news, I'd try to read Reuters. It's okay.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Jun 29, 2017 9:56:37 GMT -5
I think the ACA was a bit more of an unknown. Now, it's pretty clear that Healthcare reform is going to seriously curtail Medicaid, and there are people on Medicaid who support it. Mind boggling. Or... some of them are willing to support something that costs them more personally if it's what they believe is the right thing to do for the nation. Isn't that what the author in the article referenced in the OP mentions - that people need to be willing to support things that cost them personally if those things are what is good for the nation as a whole? Why is it when a "liberal" votes against their self interest it's "self sacrifice for the common good" and when a "conservative" does it, it's because they're stupid? No. I'm having a hard time organizing my thoughts today.
The people I know in this situation are saying, "they don't mean me, it's those welfare deadbeats." They don't have enough money to sacrifice for the common good. The may very well be willing to sacrifice, but they can't afford it.
I can afford to sacrifice for the common good. I'm OK with it, to a point, but I want to see a reasonable return on my money. Which I never seem to see with government programs.
Frankly, I don't know what to think recently.
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movingforward
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Post by movingforward on Jun 29, 2017 10:02:22 GMT -5
I think the ACA was a bit more of an unknown. Now, it's pretty clear that Healthcare reform is going to seriously curtail Medicaid, and there are people on Medicaid who support it. Mind boggling. Or... some of them are willing to support something that costs them more personally if it's what they believe is the right thing to do for the nation. Isn't that what the author in the article referenced in the OP mentions - that people need to be willing to support things that cost them personally if those things are what is good for the nation as a whole? Why is it when a "liberal" votes against their self interest it's "self sacrifice for the common good" and when a "conservative" does it, it's because they're stupid?I think the reason why liberals say this is because Republicans are constantly spouting off about how those living off the government are all democrats "voting themselves more money." It isn't surprising liberals want to counteract this misconception every change they get. It is just another way the politicians and the media have tried to divide us all.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Jun 29, 2017 10:07:12 GMT -5
I do get annoyed when I hear anyone say that "democrats making a living off the government" or any comment akin to that.
DH and I make pretty good money. We don't rely on the government and pay more in taxes than what the average family income is here.
I believe in the social contract, I do think we have an obligation to care for those who can't care for themselves. I also believe in personal responsibility and you should work.
Am I a minority? Are my beliefs that off the wall?
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milee
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Post by milee on Jun 29, 2017 10:11:07 GMT -5
I do get annoyed when I hear anyone say that "democrats making a living off the government" or any comment akin to that.
DH and I make pretty good money. We don't rely on the government and pay more in taxes than what the average family income is here.
I believe in the social contract, I do think we have an obligation to care for those who can't care for themselves. I also believe in personal responsibility and you should work.
Am I a minority? Are my beliefs that off the wall? I don't know. My opinion is that there isn't that much disagreement about some of the "big" beliefs. The devil is in the details and how people think the country can and should address those beliefs. Healthcare is a really good example. If you asked 100 people, you'd probably get 90% of them to agree that the country could and should provide basic healthcare to citizens. Sounds like we agree, right? Hah! Try to get some consensus on what "basic" healthcare is...(that's without even touching the thorny issue of who pays for it and how much they pay) and that's where things go off the rails.
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ken a.k.a OMK
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They killed Kenny, the bastards.
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Post by ken a.k.a OMK on Jun 29, 2017 10:11:45 GMT -5
No I just gave up arguing with a few people here. They've gotten as nasty as Trump in calling everyone names and insulting us. I won't change their closed minds and I don't get much real info from them to think about. I'm not going to read breitbart.
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movingforward
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Post by movingforward on Jun 29, 2017 10:12:24 GMT -5
I think your beliefs are held by 90% of the populations but the politicians and the media have everyone so polarized that no one can see it.
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movingforward
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Post by movingforward on Jun 29, 2017 10:15:14 GMT -5
I do get annoyed when I hear anyone say that "democrats making a living off the government" or any comment akin to that.
DH and I make pretty good money. We don't rely on the government and pay more in taxes than what the average family income is here.
I believe in the social contract, I do think we have an obligation to care for those who can't care for themselves. I also believe in personal responsibility and you should work.
Am I a minority? Are my beliefs that off the wall? I don't know. My opinion is that there isn't that much disagreement about some of the "big" beliefs. The devil is in the details and how people think the country can and should address those beliefs. Healthcare is a really good example. If you asked 100 people, you'd probably get 90% of them to agree that the country could and should provide basic healthcare to citizens. Sounds like we agree, right? Hah! Try to get some consensus on what "basic" healthcare is...(that's without even touching the thorny issue of who pays for it and how much they pay) and that's where things go off the rails. Sure, but this is where we are supposed to compromise. No one wants to do that any longer. We don't work across the aisle together to come up with solutions, we just stomp our feet like a 3 year old. It is all or nothing.
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Jun 29, 2017 10:15:38 GMT -5
I do get annoyed when I hear anyone say that "democrats making a living off the government" or any comment akin to that.
DH and I make pretty good money. We don't rely on the government and pay more in taxes than what the average family income is here.
I believe in the social contract, I do think we have an obligation to care for those who can't care for themselves. I also believe in personal responsibility and you should work.
Am I a minority? Are my beliefs that off the wall? apparently. I guess I'm a liberal nutjob too. I am okay with helping support a family on welfare because it's not the kids' fault the parents need welfare. BUT I do think there need to be more stipulations: -you can get welfare (food stamps, daycare voucher, housing voucher, free prepaid phone if needed) for 5 years max -you must complete mandatory job/vocational re-training during those 5 years (train to be a dental assistant, bookkeeper, drafter, x-ray tech... something that's like a 2-3 year program) I don't think that's too crazy.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jun 29, 2017 10:16:14 GMT -5
I do get annoyed when I hear anyone say that "democrats making a living off the government" or any comment akin to that.
DH and I make pretty good money. We don't rely on the government and pay more in taxes than what the average family income is here.
I believe in the social contract, I do think we have an obligation to care for those who can't care for themselves. I also believe in personal responsibility and you should work.
Am I a minority? Are my beliefs that off the wall? You and I agree on that.
But I do not think we have an obligation to care for those who WON'T care for themselves. I could have relied on my daughter's disability to have the taxpayers support us but that goes against what I believe in. I believe people that can work have the moral obligation to work. My daughter will never be independent and when I'm gone I'm sure I will not leave enough assets to last her lifetime. But I damn well will do my best to support her. It frustrates me that too many people are willing to let the government support their decisions. I chose to have children so I'm responsible for doing what I can to support them. I don't expect the government to provide for us. I think because I don't expect the government to provide for us I get really pissed when other people do.
Somehow we have gone from a country of people with pride to a country of entitlement. It drives me nuts.
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giramomma
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Post by giramomma on Jun 29, 2017 10:16:48 GMT -5
I do get annoyed when I hear anyone say that "democrats making a living off the government" or any comment akin to that.
DH and I make pretty good money. We don't rely on the government and pay more in taxes than what the average family income is here.
I believe in the social contract, I do think we have an obligation to care for those who can't care for themselves. I also believe in personal responsibility and you should work.
Am I a minority? Are my beliefs that off the wall? No. They are not off the wall. You asked if moderates are boring. I don't believe that moderates are boring. I think the art of compromise is dead, at least for now. We, as a nation, also don't know how to prioritize anymore. It will be interesting to see what the next generation does. We do teach our kids skills of negotiation, prioritization, and compromise at home. It's part of being a non-authoritarian parent. I don't claim that I know everything, and I can meet all of their needs. Sometimes, I need to listen to them when they are clearly telling me I am not meeting their needs and make adjustments where it makes sense. And sometimes it doesn't. But again, there is discussion and discourse. Maybe our kids will be like, dude, enough and put these skills to work. Or, maybe like us, they will just give up and quietly about their life in hopes that something will change. Who knows.
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busymom
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Post by busymom on Jun 29, 2017 10:18:04 GMT -5
I'm actually a moderate, but the current Democratic Party is more in alignment to my personal beliefs. I guess, if I have to choose between Democratic or Republican, I'd be viewed as a "conservative Democrat". I do believe you should work 40 hours a week (at least) if you are physically able to do so. And, I believe if you work full time, your pay should cover the basics: food, rent, health care. And yes, I also believe we should help the elderly, poor, & disabled. And, contrary to what the media claims is the "truth", I go to worship services every week, and am a Christian. (The media seems to portray those who vote Democratic are non-believers.) So, personally, I would love it if a 3rd political party emerged, as both mainline parties seem to be leaning towards extremes, with no room for negotiation (or, too darn stubborn to negotiate). In spite of the fact we COULD have taken a lot of government handouts with DS's disability, DH & I have stubbornly chosen to do everything we possibly can on our own. (And, I know I'm not the only parent of a special needs child who has chosen this route.) So, not everyone who votes for a Democratic candidate is out to "milk the system".
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Jun 29, 2017 10:19:38 GMT -5
I do get annoyed when I hear anyone say that "democrats making a living off the government" or any comment akin to that.
DH and I make pretty good money. We don't rely on the government and pay more in taxes than what the average family income is here.
I believe in the social contract, I do think we have an obligation to care for those who can't care for themselves. I also believe in personal responsibility and you should work.
Am I a minority? Are my beliefs that off the wall? No. A couple of people on my facebook wall post about how all democrats/liberals are sucking the government teat and the only reason anyone could possibly be one is because they want to vote for some more freebies. I am tempted to post back and ask them to explain, in detail, what benefits I am supposed to be getting because I am apparently missing out. I am sure they would come back with then don't mean me of course. Yeah, yeah you do. It's like when you bash a minority then when someone calls you out insist you aren't racist because you have friends that belong to that minority group.
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milee
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Post by milee on Jun 29, 2017 10:20:17 GMT -5
I don't know. My opinion is that there isn't that much disagreement about some of the "big" beliefs. The devil is in the details and how people think the country can and should address those beliefs. Healthcare is a really good example. If you asked 100 people, you'd probably get 90% of them to agree that the country could and should provide basic healthcare to citizens. Sounds like we agree, right? Hah! Try to get some consensus on what "basic" healthcare is...(that's without even touching the thorny issue of who pays for it and how much they pay) and that's where things go off the rails. Sure, but this where we are supposed to compromise. No one wants to do that any longer. We don't work across the aisle together to come up with solutions, we just stomp our feet like a 3 year old. It is all or nothing. Of course. Why would anyone want to negotiate with "rubes", "uneducated idiots" or "jerks" or "cruel" people who are "callous"? If that's what most of the population believes about people who believe something else - which is how the media often portrays the opposing side - then it's logical that there's no desire to work together. Why would you seek to understand someone else's view if they're so fundamentally flawed as a human that all you feel is contempt? That is the biggest danger in the increasing polarization of media and politics. If you want to destroy people, the most effective way to get others to go along with you is to first dehumanize the target population. Once you've convinced the masses that the target population is subhuman, it's much easier to achieve your goals.
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swamp
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THEY’RE EATING THE DOGS!!!!!!!
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Post by swamp on Jun 29, 2017 10:20:31 GMT -5
I don't know. My opinion is that there isn't that much disagreement about some of the "big" beliefs. The devil is in the details and how people think the country can and should address those beliefs. Healthcare is a really good example. If you asked 100 people, you'd probably get 90% of them to agree that the country could and should provide basic healthcare to citizens. Sounds like we agree, right? Hah! Try to get some consensus on what "basic" healthcare is...(that's without even touching the thorny issue of who pays for it and how much they pay) and that's where things go off the rails. Sure, but this is where we are supposed to compromise. No one wants to do that any longer. We don't work across the aisle together to come up with solutions, we just stomp our feet like a 3 year old. It is all or nothing. you're right about that.
The Tea Party was founded on "no compromise"
RINO is a derogatory term, apparently it is verboten for a republican to align with any idea outside the prescribed platform.
Is there a similar derogatory name for a democrat? I really don't know.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jun 29, 2017 10:21:38 GMT -5
I think your beliefs are held by 90% of the populations but the politicians and the media have everyone so polarized that no one can see it. I think it also gets tricky when you add in the social issues. I might agree with some of the fiscal policies of those that are moderate but I will never agree with things like men in my locker rooms or not locking down our borders. So it is easy to say that people that voted for trump are selfish but it goes beyond "I have mine, fuck you".
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