Chocolate Lover
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Post by Chocolate Lover on Jun 14, 2017 15:51:43 GMT -5
It's difficult, I don't want to base this decision on money alone but that's a major reason why I don't want kids now, and as I get older I feel like time is running out, things would be easier I think if I had my mom because I know I could have counted on her for childcare, I don't know how we will be able to afford rent and childcare along with other bills. I also spent my 20's helping to raise my two sisters, one of them has major health issues, so I also feel like I've done my time raising kids- but what if later in life I regret not having kids? Also, we are already so tired now, I can't imagine how tired we would be with kids. Maybe a rich person can adopt us? It needs to be a factor for sure. Kids aren't cheap even when you are being as cheap as you can possibly be. The guilt you feel for having a hard time even managing the basics sucks. I'm not going to give you grief for actually thinking about this stuff.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Jun 14, 2017 15:53:16 GMT -5
If you regret not having kids later you could always look into things like Big Brothers/Big Sisters.
You want kids or don't. It's a deeply personal decision between you and your SO.
I used to scoff at people who said that and share my carefully crafted lists of pros/cons of having children but I found with Abby that if you want a kid bad enough the con list goes down the toilet
DH and I are discussing him getting snipped so we have to REALLY ask ourselves if we are done. For me the answer is yes. The hassles of being pregnant, having a newborn and yes, facing newborn daycare costs again DO NOT appeal to me. There is no pro that can override my desire to be done with all the cons. There is no sitting on the fence this time around I am DONE.
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Jun 14, 2017 15:53:36 GMT -5
It's difficult, I don't want to base this decision on money alone but that's a major reason why I don't want kids now, and as I get older I feel like time is running out, things would be easier I think if I had my mom because I know I could have counted on her for childcare, I don't know how we will be able to afford rent and childcare along with other bills. I also spent my 20's helping to raise my two sisters, one of them has major health issues, so I also feel like I've done my time raising kids- but what if later in life I regret not having kids? Also, we are already so tired now, I can't imagine how tired we would be with kids. Maybe a rich person can adopt us? It needs to be a factor for sure. Kids aren't cheap even when you are being as cheap as you can possibly be. The guilt you feel for having a hard time even managing the basics sucks. I'm not going to give you grief for actually thinking about this stuff. more people SHOULD think about it instead of "oops, his penis somehow got inside of me and now we're are magically having a baby!"
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giramomma
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Post by giramomma on Jun 14, 2017 16:03:33 GMT -5
It's difficult, I don't want to base this decision on money alone but that's a major reason why I don't want kids now, and as I get older I feel like time is running out, things would be easier I think if I had my mom because I know I could have counted on her for childcare, I don't know how we will be able to afford rent and childcare along with other bills. I also spent my 20's helping to raise my two sisters, one of them has major health issues, so I also feel like I've done my time raising kids- but what if later in life I regret not having kids? Also, we are already so tired now, I can't imagine how tired we would be with kids. Maybe a rich person can adopt us? How old are you? Besides Big Brother/Big Sister, adoption is an option. I have a client/friend who lost her only biological child right before he graduated high school. She also has outlived both of her ex-husbands, I think. (One for sure...never did ask)..However, she adopted a 4 year old child from china when she was in her early 50s. Even got to retire before she hit 60. You are also discounting a social network that you might build up. My second job is very social. Clients end up being good family friends (see above). We have a network in our neighborhood. There's a few people at my job that would drop everything and help if they needed. I don't have extended family of my own (parents, siblings) to rely on for help. We live near my ils, but we don't ask them for a ton of help, because it's not their job to be childcare providers for our kids. Again, totally not trying to suggest that you have kids. Only trying to suggest that you don't know what options/opportunities might unfold in front of you as you move along in life.
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Poptart
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Post by Poptart on Jun 14, 2017 16:11:50 GMT -5
I'm 33, will be 34 at the end of the year. I totally resent the fact that men can be 80 and still have kids.
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Jun 14, 2017 16:16:17 GMT -5
I'm 33, will be 34 at the end of the year. I totally resent the fact that men can be 80 and still have kids. not really - sperm loses quality with age. and 80-year-old erections...
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swamp
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THEY’RE EATING THE DOGS!!!!!!!
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Post by swamp on Jun 14, 2017 16:23:06 GMT -5
I'm 33, will be 34 at the end of the year. I totally resent the fact that men can be 80 and still have kids. not really - sperm loses quality with age. and 80-year-old erections... I think that's an oxymoron.
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giramomma
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Post by giramomma on Jun 14, 2017 17:21:45 GMT -5
I'm 33, will be 34 at the end of the year. I totally resent the fact that men can be 80 and still have kids. You aren't that old yet...to feel like you are backed into a corner. I'm the poster child for "abstinence is the only sure way to avoid pregnancy." I'm pregnant with a surprise. I'm 41, almost 42. I only ovulate while I'm on medication. (I only get medication to procreate.) And we were using BC like 95% of the time.. I'll give you that the efficacy of my BC was about 90%...but come on...when you are reproductively old and infertile, is doubling up a real need? (Apparently, it is.) We have family that are planning to have another baby when the mom is 46.
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NoNamePerson
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Post by NoNamePerson on Jun 14, 2017 17:32:59 GMT -5
I'm 33, will be 34 at the end of the year. I totally resent the fact that men can be 80 and still have kids. not really - sperm loses quality with age. and 80-year-old erections...
That statement alone is going to drive me to drink. What a visual!!! I know I shouldn't have a visual but now I do Even at my age I don't want to see an 80 year old erection.
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Poptart
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Post by Poptart on Jun 14, 2017 18:42:10 GMT -5
I'm 33, will be 34 at the end of the year. I totally resent the fact that men can be 80 and still have kids. You aren't that old yet...to feel like you are backed into a corner. I'm the poster child for "abstinence is the only sure way to avoid pregnancy." I'm pregnant with a surprise. I'm 41, almost 42. I only ovulate while I'm on medication. (I only get medication to procreate.) And we were using BC like 95% of the time.. I'll give you that the efficacy of my BC was about 90%...but come on...when you are reproductively old and infertile, is doubling up a real need? (Apparently, it is.) We have family that are planning to have another baby when the mom is 46. I feel old, especially when so may of the girls that I grew up with already have kids.
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lurkyloo
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“Time means nothing now,” said Toad. “It is just the thing that happens between snacks.”
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Post by lurkyloo on Jun 14, 2017 19:00:41 GMT -5
I'm 33, will be 34 at the end of the year. I totally resent the fact that men can be 80 and still have kids. Right?!?!?
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giramomma
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Post by giramomma on Jun 14, 2017 19:20:55 GMT -5
I feel old, especially when so may of the girls that I grew up with already have kids. I felt young because we were the odd ones having kids early. On the flip side, one of my younger coworkers could not believe I'll be 42 in a few months. A lot of my clients put me 5-8 years younger than what I am. And I can out-do my 13 year old when it comes to ball jokes at Dick's (sporting good store) or the bowling alley. What every you feel, though, and whatever you decide. It's OK. Better than OK. Trust yourself to make the right decisions for yourself. I mean, you seem to have it together.
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muttleynfelix
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Post by muttleynfelix on Jun 14, 2017 19:56:18 GMT -5
You aren't that old yet...to feel like you are backed into a corner. I'm the poster child for "abstinence is the only sure way to avoid pregnancy." I'm pregnant with a surprise. I'm 41, almost 42. I only ovulate while I'm on medication. (I only get medication to procreate.) And we were using BC like 95% of the time.. I'll give you that the efficacy of my BC was about 90%...but come on...when you are reproductively old and infertile, is doubling up a real need? (Apparently, it is.) We have family that are planning to have another baby when the mom is 46. I feel old, especially when so may of the girls that I grew up with already have kids. You aren't there yet. I have a lot friends my age and older that had babies in the last year. My hubby's cousin is pushing 40 and was married 12 years before having a baby this spring. If you want one, have one when you are ready. If you don't want one, don't have one.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Jun 18, 2017 6:49:32 GMT -5
DS's girlfriend will be 36 in August and is still talking about having a family. I think that's part of the reason they moved to a two bedroom apartment. She's saving for a house. DS of course wants no responsibility for a house, let alone a child to ruin his Peter Pan existence but he'll do what she wants. I hope things work out for them. Biting my tongue in tampa.
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Jun 18, 2017 8:44:15 GMT -5
Poptart - don't let people to tell you how to feel! I totally get feeling old for one reason or another even if age-wise it might not be so. And it irks me beyond belief when I am told "oh, you are not old, you shouldn't feel old, you should feel xxx". Who the hell made you my feelings police
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NancysSummerSip
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Post by NancysSummerSip on Jun 18, 2017 13:50:38 GMT -5
You forgot: Be involved in the PTO Sell some sort of MLM product, or attend at least 2 parties a month Hold a local political office knit, at least well enough to make a wimp hat attend at least one anti-something march a month I would add to Archie's list that a mom needs to be an athletic superhero - yanno, run marathons, do triathlons, etc. Train in all that spare time, damnit! On a serious note, I have no idea how any parent does live up to any societal expectation today. You get close to even achieving one of them, then you rock in my book.
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Jun 18, 2017 16:11:42 GMT -5
Poptart - don't let people to tell you how to feel! I totally get feeling old for one reason or another even if age-wise it might not be so. And it irks me beyond belief when I am told "oh, you are not old, you shouldn't feel old, you should feel xxx". Who the hell made you my feelings police I think they are trying to ease her discomfort regarding her age. Pretty sure they are not trying to be the Feelings Police...
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giramomma
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Post by giramomma on Jun 18, 2017 16:47:24 GMT -5
Poptart - don't let people to tell you how to feel! I totally get feeling old for one reason or another even if age-wise it might not be so. And it irks me beyond belief when I am told "oh, you are not old, you shouldn't feel old, you should feel xxx". Who the hell made you my feelings police Everyone is entitled to however they feel whatever they want. But, sometimes, it's not always wise to make choices based on how people feel. Feelings come and go. Feelings aren't always the "truth." It doesn't have to do with babies..I mean..do you ever stop and think about how the housing run up through 2007 would have been different if people didn't make housing decisions based on feelings of panic and fear? We legit needed a house, but I refused to pay 30% more for a house. I wasn't going to complete with people that were making irrational decisions (Interest rates will never be lower! If we don't buy this minute, we'll be priced out of the market for the next 40 years!) My husband is a great example of this, too. He told me he slips because he doesn't feel loved. And he knows those feelings don't match up with reality. Am I still trying to convince Pop Tart to have all the babies? No. I also said she was entitled to feel what she wanted. And that she seems like she has a good head and will ultimately make the best decision for herself. The people that I know that remained childless by choice decided not to have kids not because of feelings. One of my friends has been in bands forever and didn't want to give up that life. They reasoned out that the life of a traveling band member/musician spending a ton of hours in a studio was not compatible with children.
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Jun 18, 2017 19:16:03 GMT -5
Poptart - don't let people to tell you how to feel! I totally get feeling old for one reason or another even if age-wise it might not be so. And it irks me beyond belief when I am told "oh, you are not old, you shouldn't feel old, you should feel xxx". Who the hell made you my feelings police I think they are trying to ease her discomfort regarding her age. Pretty sure they are not trying to be the Feelings Police... But it's patronizing bc it's personal and usually based on either feelings or culture or both. Where I am from, women got married early and had kids early. My old classmates are pretty much all grandmothers now. When I was about 28-29 my mom's friends were all telling me how it's OK that I am not married and don't have any kids bc "we are in US now and that's OK here". What First - at that point in my life I never even wanted to have kids, but if I did - I wouldn't want to hear how "it's OK", bc for me it would have been a big deal. I think in general telling people that their feelings are invalid and they should look at things differently is a very slippery slope
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Jun 18, 2017 19:23:02 GMT -5
Poptart - don't let people to tell you how to feel! I totally get feeling old for one reason or another even if age-wise it might not be so. And it irks me beyond belief when I am told "oh, you are not old, you shouldn't feel old, you should feel xxx". Who the hell made you my feelings police Everyone is entitled to however they feel whatever they want. But, sometimes, it's not always wise to make choices based on how people feel. Feelings come and go. Feelings aren't always the "truth." It doesn't have to do with babies..I mean..do you ever stop and think about how the housing run up through 2007 would have been different if people didn't make housing decisions based on feelings of panic and fear? We legit needed a house, but I refused to pay 30% more for a house. I wasn't going to complete with people that were making irrational decisions (Interest rates will never be lower! If we don't buy this minute, we'll be priced out of the market for the next 40 years!) My husband is a great example of this, too. He told me he slips because he doesn't feel loved. And he knows those feelings don't match up with reality. Am I still trying to convince Pop Tart to have all the babies? No. I also said she was entitled to feel what she wanted. And that she seems like she has a good head and will ultimately make the best decision for herself. The people that I know that remained childless by choice decided not to have kids not because of feelings. One of my friends has been in bands forever and didn't want to give up that life. They reasoned out that the life of a traveling band member/musician spending a ton of hours in a studio was not compatible with children. I agree with that 10000%. When it comes to a lot of things feelings should not be our guide. But for other things - I don't know.... My husband and I have had this discussion /argument many many many times. He firmly believes that if I am upset about something that he doesn't think should be upsetting to me - it his his duty to bring me back to reality. May be.... But at the same time, when I am upset about something or feel a certain way, the LAST thing I want to hear is that I am feeling /thinking/looking at it all wrong. His argument is that we all need a reality check and as a spouse he is in a position to give me one. I disagree.
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beergut
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Post by beergut on Jun 18, 2017 21:07:41 GMT -5
Archie's thread about his wife's anxiety stirred up some not so happy issues with me.
It seems like moms are held up to this impossibly high standard today.
Before the kids go to school, I'm supposed to supply them with all sorts of intellectually stimulating activities.
Now they are in school, I'm supposed to help them with their homework daily.
Feed them home cooked organic food and don't let them eat junk, fried stuff, hot dogs, processed foods.
Keep them enrolled in assorted activities. Which they should excel at. We can't have average children.
Have dinner as a family.
Make sure they have enough unstructured play time outside.
Make sure they are developing socially and have plenty of "friend" time with kids of like minded parents. We can't let them have screen time and junk food at a friends house. God forbid that parent smokes.
Supply Pinterest worthy homemade snacks and party favors at school functions.
Scrap book all memories.
While I'm doing this, my house is supposed to be clean, organized, and filled with Pinteresty decorations I've made myself. All while I run a business, eat home cooked organic meals, exercise regularly, and maintain my figure. By being overweight, I'm setting a bad example for my kids.
I'm tired. My kids eat too much crap, don't play outside enough, and spend too much time playing video games and playing with their iPads. The organic food thing is a scam. I explained to EXGF once that I spent my teenage years surviving on Totino's pizza rolls, chicken nuggets, and chocolate chip cookies. There wasn't this concern over processed food, and I was a teenager, I burned up everything I ate. Trying to force your kids to only eat organic, non-processed food by only having that food type in the house is a huge failure if your kids refuse to eat it because they don't think it tastes good. Stay off Pinterest. It used to be Martha Stewart made women feel bad because they compared themselves to her impossible standard, now Pinterest has taken her place as a digital Martha Stewart. Go on there if you need a clever idea for something, otherwise screw it! As for scrapbooks, just take pictures with your camera phone, and post them in galleries on Facebook, or keep them on a memory stick. When a monumental rite of passage event like graduation or marriage comes up, take all the pictures out and present them as a slideshow. If they want them in physical form, they are free to print them out.
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Post by empress of self-improvement on Jun 19, 2017 9:23:06 GMT -5
Poptart - I'm 44 and DH and I don't have kids. I did, and sometimes still do have the occasional thought that I would like one, then I have to deal with DH and the thought goes away. In all seriousness, DH has an illness that may or may not have a genetic component to it and he is afraid of passing it on. His 4 brothers and 1 sister have all the grandkids his mother needs, and then some! One grandkid even has a kid of his own! His twin brother became a father to triplets at 49. He turned 50 just 3 months later. I felt bad that my parents never got grandchildren, except for the furry kind, but got over it real quick. In our case, I know it is the money: we don't have any and MS is not a cheap disease. DH was forced into retirement before he felt ready and stays home feeling sorry for himself because he is losing his mobility faster than we anticipated. As for mothers having to be perfect, that is such a crock. My mother was a chain-smoking wreck and not perfect by any means. I also never lived with her so I don't know what she was like during the week. All I know is she loved me and that was all I needed. Well, books helped too. Lots and lots of books.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jun 19, 2017 11:07:28 GMT -5
Overall I am not one that usually compares myself to other mothers. I do know that I judge women that are all Pinteresty as having nothing better to do. A lot of the women that I know IRL that are like that either don't work or only work part-time...I imagine I could be all crafty if I got home before 6pm on good nights, too! But in reality, I still probably wouldn't be that crafty mom because I'm just not crafty.
I did just have a moment of "omg, I need to decorate the front porch" because my oldest was graduating and there were tons of decorated front porches on FB...so I did what every non-Pinteresty mom does....I sent the oldest to Party City to get the stuff while I was at work!lol
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raeoflyte
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Post by raeoflyte on Jun 19, 2017 12:43:56 GMT -5
They multi-task and get judged for answering emails when at the park or watching a game, which is marginally better than the judgement they'd get if they don't go to the game at all. I will never forget the day I picked ds up from preschool and his teacher said, "C look -- you have a MOM!" Yes, thank you. A very involved mom who just happens to work full time which is why I'm not around at 9:15am and 3:30pm. I wanted to slap her.
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swamp
Community Leader
THEY’RE EATING THE DOGS!!!!!!!
Joined: Dec 19, 2010 16:03:22 GMT -5
Posts: 45,622
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Post by swamp on Jun 19, 2017 12:57:52 GMT -5
Archie's thread about his wife's anxiety stirred up some not so happy issues with me.
It seems like moms are held up to this impossibly high standard today.
Before the kids go to school, I'm supposed to supply them with all sorts of intellectually stimulating activities.
Now they are in school, I'm supposed to help them with their homework daily.
Feed them home cooked organic food and don't let them eat junk, fried stuff, hot dogs, processed foods.
Keep them enrolled in assorted activities. Which they should excel at. We can't have average children.
Have dinner as a family.
Make sure they have enough unstructured play time outside.
Make sure they are developing socially and have plenty of "friend" time with kids of like minded parents. We can't let them have screen time and junk food at a friends house. God forbid that parent smokes.
Supply Pinterest worthy homemade snacks and party favors at school functions.
Scrap book all memories.
While I'm doing this, my house is supposed to be clean, organized, and filled with Pinteresty decorations I've made myself. All while I run a business, eat home cooked organic meals, exercise regularly, and maintain my figure. By being overweight, I'm setting a bad example for my kids.
I'm tired. My kids eat too much crap, don't play outside enough, and spend too much time playing video games and playing with their iPads. The organic food thing is a scam. I explained to EXGF once that I spent my teenage years surviving on Totino's pizza rolls, chicken nuggets, and chocolate chip cookies. There wasn't this concern over processed food, and I was a teenager, I burned up everything I ate. Trying to force your kids to only eat organic, non-processed food by only having that food type in the house is a huge failure if your kids refuse to eat it because they don't think it tastes good. Stay off Pinterest. It used to be Martha Stewart made women feel bad because they compared themselves to her impossible standard, now Pinterest has taken her place as a digital Martha Stewart. Go on there if you need a clever idea for something, otherwise screw it! As for scrapbooks, just take pictures with your camera phone, and post them in galleries on Facebook, or keep them on a memory stick. When a monumental rite of passage event like graduation or marriage comes up, take all the pictures out and present them as a slideshow. If they want them in physical form, they are free to print them out. I don't do pinterest and I don't feed my kids organic foods. And they have eaten chicken nuggets and kraft mac and cheese too many time to count.
It doesn't stop me from feeling guilty about it.
I suck at the picture thing.
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mmhmm
Administrator
It's a great pity the right of free speech isn't based on the obligation to say something sensible.
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Post by mmhmm on Jun 19, 2017 13:08:45 GMT -5
My kids are in their 50s with families of their own and doing wonderfully well. The following rules worked pretty darned well, I guess:
Is there a mess? If so, did you make it.? If yes, clean it up. If no, is it a family-made mess? If yes, everybody chips in to clean it up. Regular house cleaning is done by chore assignment and chore assignments rotate week-to-week. Everybody is expected to do his/her part. Anybody who doesn't is going to miss something they are counting on, or lose something they value. Having company? Wunnerful! Are they coming to see you or the house?
Are you bored? Find something to do or I'll find something for you to do. Do you need help with something? Ask. If I have time, I'll help. If dad has time, he'll help. If neither of us have time at the moment, we'll help as soon as we can. In the meantime ... find something else to do.
Hungry? Dinner will be ready shortly. What's served is what is to be eaten. If it's not good enough, you're not that hungry.
Neighbors got a new car? Cool! Go compliment them on it. Ours still runs.
Other folks running their mouths about what the neighbors do, or do not do correctly? Tell 'em you're not particularly interested in the latter but you'd love to hear about what's being done well and how it's being done. You'd be surprised how quickly the snark stops when you make it clear you don't want to hear it. If it doesn't stop it's coming from a source I'm no longer interested in knowing.
Worked for us.
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Cookies Galore
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I don't need no instructions to know how to rock
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Post by Cookies Galore on Jun 19, 2017 13:20:03 GMT -5
Overall I am not one that usually compares myself to other mothers. I do know that I judge women that are all Pinteresty as having nothing better to do. A lot of the women that I know IRL that are like that either don't work or only work part-time...I imagine I could be all crafty if I got home before 6pm on good nights, too! But in reality, I still probably wouldn't be that crafty mom because I'm just not crafty.
I did just have a moment of "omg, I need to decorate the front porch" because my oldest was graduating and there were tons of decorated front porches on FB...so I did what every non-Pinteresty mom does....I sent the oldest to Party City to get the stuff while I was at work!lol Or you could have just not decorated! Don't let FB sway you. What is this decorating the front porch business?
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Miss Tequila
Distinguished Associate
Joined: Dec 19, 2010 10:13:45 GMT -5
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jun 19, 2017 13:29:55 GMT -5
Overall I am not one that usually compares myself to other mothers. I do know that I judge women that are all Pinteresty as having nothing better to do. A lot of the women that I know IRL that are like that either don't work or only work part-time...I imagine I could be all crafty if I got home before 6pm on good nights, too! But in reality, I still probably wouldn't be that crafty mom because I'm just not crafty.
I did just have a moment of "omg, I need to decorate the front porch" because my oldest was graduating and there were tons of decorated front porches on FB...so I did what every non-Pinteresty mom does....I sent the oldest to Party City to get the stuff while I was at work!lol Or you could have just not decorated! Don't let FB sway you. What is this decorating the front porch business? Well it did wind up looking cute for pictures so I'm happy I did it. But I never would have thought of it before I saw the pictures on FB. Not sure if it is a thing everywhere but here the front porch is decorated on the day of graduation.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jun 19, 2017 13:31:03 GMT -5
They multi-task and get judged for answering emails when at the park or watching a game, which is marginally better than the judgement they'd get if they don't go to the game at all. I will never forget the day I picked ds up from preschool and his teacher said, "C look -- you have a MOM!" Yes, thank you. A very involved mom who just happens to work full time which is why I'm not around at 9:15am and 3:30pm. I wanted to slap her. Oh wow...that was freaking rude of that teacher!
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Green Eyed Lady
Senior Associate
Look inna eye! Always look inna eye!
Joined: Jan 23, 2012 11:23:55 GMT -5
Posts: 19,629
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Post by Green Eyed Lady on Jun 19, 2017 14:08:29 GMT -5
You all amaze me. I only have a dog and a mom to take care of and I'm exhausted a lot of the time. It's mostly my own fault because I'm a bit obsessive about....clean. It's not for others - it's for me. I'm guessing that having kids might beat that out of me, but who knows. I honestly don't know where you find the hours.
I'm also guessing that most of us here didn't have the perfect Pinterest mother. I know I didn't. And it appears we've all turned out just fine. Three differences I see at least for how I grew up. We didn't have electronics, my mother thought nothing of slapping the crap out of me if I was disrespectful or disobedient and not as much emphasis was put on eating perfectly. (I'm not either an opponent or supporter of physical punishment because I have no skin in the game, so that's not for debate - just a description of the differences I see.)
Maybe all you can do is the best you can do and realize that nobody lives the exact same life you live. I know most people want better for their kids than they had it, but maybe "better" isn't always best. As long as your kids know how to be respectful, obey the law and are on a path to becoming self-supporting adults who won't be absolute "fails" as parents, themselves, maybe you are doing just fine. If Nancy Next Door is more artsy about doing the exact same thing...yay for Nancy.
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