Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Jan 19, 2017 14:53:58 GMT -5
I've been seeing a few articles and opinion pieces floating around about "Toxic Masculinity" and what some colleges and universities are doing to fight it.
Basically Toxic Masculinity is defined as "a narrow and repressive definition of manhood, designating manhood as defined by violence, sex, status, and aggression."
Some Universities, like Oregon State, are have invited students to attend a "healthy masculinities conference" where they will engage in collective imagining to construct new futures for masculinities, unrestricted from power, privilege, and oppression."
www.forbes.com/sites/frankminiter/2017/01/18/the-hard-adrenaline-soaked-truth-about-toxic-masculinity/#3d4584fb7506
What do you think? Is this new age, liberal hogwash or is there some good to be found on trying to re define masculinity into a less "toxic" state?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 19, 2017 15:03:02 GMT -5
If I didn't read the source I would have thought this was an article from "The Onion". Wow........
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jan 19, 2017 15:27:47 GMT -5
hahahahahaha......
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Jan 19, 2017 15:35:19 GMT -5
I do think that some people have a definition of masculinity, i.e. what it means to be "a man", that is not productive. I don't think holding such a perspective is limited by gender. I think a discussion on the topic is a good thing.
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tallguy
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Post by tallguy on Jan 19, 2017 15:36:09 GMT -5
Reads to me like the opinion and interpretation in the article is FAR more ridiculous than the idea itself. It does raise the question of exactly what is the upper limit for blowing things out of proportion though....
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Green Eyed Lady
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Post by Green Eyed Lady on Jan 19, 2017 15:39:00 GMT -5
Oh great. I'm finally thinking I'm ready to find a good man and now they want to turn them all into women.
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giramomma
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Post by giramomma on Jan 19, 2017 15:40:41 GMT -5
We have men's organization like that on campus. It's not about toxic masculinity...it's more about..what does it mean to be a man. And I think it can be a good thing.
From our campus's web page..
The group on campus touches on things like porn and non-sexual intimacy. Do real men have feelings or do they sock them away. Do real men last as long as porn? Have as many partners? Do young men need to prove they are real men by drinking 10 beers? Or real men don't get depressed?
Let's face it, we're too busy making sure all the girls know they can do/be anything they want to.
We haven't figure out how to take time to tell boys "You have feelings, it's ok to express them. You don't want to be a CFO, you'd rather be a SAHD. Good. Just make sure you marry someone who agrees with your choices. Don't want to "hook up." That's OK. You are still a man."
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Jan 19, 2017 15:44:21 GMT -5
Oh great. I'm finally thinking I'm ready to find a good man and now they want to turn them all into women. There is certainly that risk. It is important that there be discussion.
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giramomma
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Post by giramomma on Jan 19, 2017 15:47:30 GMT -5
I will add that we are fortunate to be raising a sensitive boy. It makes me more aware of what we say and how we behave.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Jan 19, 2017 15:50:04 GMT -5
IM(not so)HO Why Men are the Way They Are is a good book on the male experience. A little dated at this point, but still worth the read.
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shanendoah
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Post by shanendoah on Jan 19, 2017 15:50:22 GMT -5
So, I haven't read the article, but I am familiar with the concept of toxic masculinity (and I work on a college campus). First, I remind you that write-ups of classes and seminars in official university publications are often ridiculous and use academic language and phrasing that none of us would ever use in real life. However, the idea of toxic masculinity is very basic. Toxic masculinity is that idea that there is only one way to be a "real" man. Toxic masculinity is what tells us that "boys don't cry", tells us to "man up" or "grow a pair". It is what tells us that boys are mean to girls because they like them, and that that's okay. It is the idea that tells us that men who don't like sports and beer aren't real men. If you don't play a sport, you're a "sissy". In a sense, the idea of toxic masculinity is the idea that our societal patriarchal norms have been bad for/holding back men as well as women.
The fight against toxic masculinity then is the fight for inclusion of all men. It is the fight that says it is okay for boys/men to cry, if they feel like it. It is the fight that says hitting someone is not how you express that you like them. It is the fight that says you cannot define men or masculinity based on any one set of parameters any more than you can define women/femininity based on one set of parameters. It is the fight that says you be you, I'll be me, and we'll both be okay.
It is NOT a fight that says men must cry. (Some men never will, just like some women never will.) It is not a fight that says sports are bad. And it is not a fight that says men are inherently bad.
It is a fight against systematic, entrenched, discrimination against men who don't behave the way "society" thinks men should behave.
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quince
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Post by quince on Jan 19, 2017 15:51:17 GMT -5
I'm tremendously lucky that my sons have their father as a role model. He will wear leggings if he pleases, he is a black-belt in a martial art that is explicitly non-aggressive.
I think generally when people are "performing" gender roles it can get kind of gross. Drink fruity drinks if you want. Hunt if you want. I have a pair of friends in which the husband gets the hair treatments in a salon and the wife goes deer hunting. They do what they enjoy, not what other people think they enjoy based on their genitals. I imagine they are happier for it.
Oh, but don't go 'round beating people up if you want, being physically aggressive when thwarted..if that's masculinity we could do with less "men".
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Green Eyed Lady
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Post by Green Eyed Lady on Jan 19, 2017 15:51:18 GMT -5
I don't think the answer to men who are violent is to take the "man" out of them. It's to take the "asshole" out of them. And "assholes" come in both genders.
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Tiny
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Post by Tiny on Jan 19, 2017 15:54:09 GMT -5
I don't think men inflict "toxic masculinity" on other men... I suspect the bad behaviors mostly effect women (and children and animals). I've witnessed plenty of men who seem to be polite/respectful to OTHER men - but seem to feel it's perfectly fine to treat women like second class citizens for most things and to put women, children or dogs/cats/family pet "in their place" with threats of or actual physical/verbal violence. They NEVER imply to another man to his face "you're too stupid to understand" or "do this or I'll beat the crap out of you" but they will happily imply or even out right say that to women (and children).
That double standard is what I would call "toxic masculinity"...
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Jan 19, 2017 15:54:58 GMT -5
... Yeah, I pretty much expect a large group of guys to end up in the strip club at some point or another. ... Are the men who have no interest in going to one "real men"? Or is it okay to have no interest in seeing random nude women? Is it worth the discussion?
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quince
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Post by quince on Jan 19, 2017 15:57:06 GMT -5
Hell, I don't know why women expect women to be exactly like them.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Jan 19, 2017 15:58:40 GMT -5
I don't think the answer to men who are violent is to take the "man" out of them. It's to take the "asshole" out of them. And "assholes" come in both genders. Very true. But the male assholes tend to be more violent than the female assholes. They are generally passive aggressive or catty. Neither of which are pleasant characteristics.
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giramomma
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Post by giramomma on Jan 19, 2017 15:59:23 GMT -5
I guess I never figured out why women expect guys to be exactly like them. I remember my husband telling me all sort's of really boring stories about his golf trip. (this is a golf tournament that hosts 500+ fireman). I was finally bored to tears and asked, "Are these the stories you tell me in place of the strip club stories?" After he got done turning red he admitted that they were. Yeah, I pretty much expect a large group of guys to end up in the strip club at some point or another. Yes, I know he tells fart jokes, crude jokes, stupid physical contests (I bet I can do more pushups than you), complain about his wife, etc when he's with other guys. I just can't figure out why some women get bent out of shape about that. Men are physically different. Those differences effect (in general) their emotions and behavior just as women's physical make up effects their emotions and behavior, evolution affects us all and our differences. Why is it a big deal? Look. With a 12 year old boy, OMG, I get the fart jokes, the crude jokes. I also tend to be stuck in Jr high land. So, sex, fart, poop, usually end up on the scrabble board at some point...usually from me. But, you know what. Sometimes my son feels bad or hurt about something at school or we have a poor interaction. So, what do I do, as a parent, when my son tells me I hurt his feelings? Do I tell him to shut up? That he doesn't have a right to feel? Too bad? Get over it? I'm the parent, I'm always right? That's what we're talking about. I was raised to believe that men were NOT entitled to have emotional needs. That men were always wrong. Men having feelings...purely stupid. They didn't deserve that. I'll be the first to tell you that I was the world's shittiest marriage partner in that respect. It was also really apparent, that I had to change my belief system if I wanted to stay married to my husband. (That's one of the reasons we ended up together. It was a great dysfunctional system. I'd behave in such a way, or flat out tell DH, that his needs, thoughts and feelings didn't matter, because he was a man and he was stupid. Which just fed into his addiction. Which in turn led us back to systems of interaction that I was most comfortable with growing up.)
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Green Eyed Lady
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Post by Green Eyed Lady on Jan 19, 2017 16:00:33 GMT -5
... Yeah, I pretty much expect a large group of guys to end up in the strip club at some point or another. ... Are the men who have no interest in going to one "real men"? Or is it okay to have no interest in seeing random nude women? Is it worth the discussion? Yes. Yes. Yes,
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Green Eyed Lady
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Post by Green Eyed Lady on Jan 19, 2017 16:03:47 GMT -5
I don't think the answer to men who are violent is to take the "man" out of them. It's to take the "asshole" out of them. And "assholes" come in both genders. Very true. But the male assholes tend to be more violent than the female assholes. They are generally passive aggressive or catty. Neither of which are pleasant characteristics. No argument there.
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tallguy
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Post by tallguy on Jan 19, 2017 16:05:37 GMT -5
This is the quote that takes the article way beyond ridiculous. The idea as I read it has NOTHING to do with taking these things away from boys or men, but more getting back to them. Take away the idea that men have the right to rule over women because they are stronger, or merely because they are men. "Toxic" attitudes are (I would guess) found more in the lower-class where such men feel powerless in their lives so take control where they can, or in either some conservative or foreign groups where male domination is seen as "right." I think they are talking about the type of attitude that leads to wife-beating and verbal abuse, or men who kill their exes for having the audacity to leave them. You can add in rape and some types of discrimination as well.
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Green Eyed Lady
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Post by Green Eyed Lady on Jan 19, 2017 16:07:56 GMT -5
I have a question for the men here. Mostly, I find that criticism of women comes from other women. Is the same true of men?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 19, 2017 16:09:37 GMT -5
... Yeah, I pretty much expect a large group of guys to end up in the strip club at some point or another. ... Are the men who have no interest in going to one "real men"? Or is it okay to have no interest in seeing random nude women? Is it worth the discussion? Same could be asked of women, the last wedding I was at in New Orleans many of the ladies found their way to the beefcake joint while us men were on our best behavior ; )
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jan 19, 2017 16:09:51 GMT -5
I don't think the answer to men who are violent is to take the "man" out of them. It's to take the "asshole" out of them. And "assholes" come in both genders. Very true. But the male assholes tend to be more violent than the female assholes. They are generally passive aggressive or catty. Neither of which are pleasant characteristics. But see, what you just said seems to nail it. Men ARE different than woman. It just is and it is ok.
I find it offensive that we want to change men. I like men the way they are. If I wanted to date a woman I would be a lesbian.
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tallguy
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Post by tallguy on Jan 19, 2017 16:12:59 GMT -5
So just reading this thread, it doesn't sound like anyone knows what masculinity is, so I'm wondering how it we can teach men to be toxicless with their masculinity. I have a definition that I like of what makes a "real" man. Someone who is wise enough to know what he wants, who is strong enough to go out and get what he wants, and is sensitive enough to care about HOW he gets it.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jan 19, 2017 16:14:43 GMT -5
So just reading this thread, it doesn't sound like anyone knows what masculinity is, so I'm wondering how it we can teach men to be toxicless with their masculinity. I have a definition that I like of what makes a "real" man. Someone who is wise enough to know what he wants, who is strong enough to go out and get what he wants, and is sensitive enough to care about HOW he gets it. Isn't that also the definition of a "real" woman?
The issue I have with all of this hippy-dippy stuff is that men ARE different than woman. And I dont' know why that is a bad thing. If I wanted a man to be like me I would be a lesbian.
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alabamagal
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Post by alabamagal on Jan 19, 2017 16:15:39 GMT -5
I think it is a bunch of liberal crap.
I don't know how telling boys/men "It's ok to cry" will stop violence.
I don't want anyone telling me how to act as a woman.
I taught my boys to be gentlemen. They also learned how to behave in various situations. So the behavior in the football locker room is different than that in church. I think it is important to be able to fit into all kinds of situations.
Of course my boys grew up in a household where Mom worked in a male-dominated profession, made more money than Dad and drinks beer. Dad works in a profession where there are more women and he drinks fruity-drinks. That is just how we roll.
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justme
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Post by justme on Jan 19, 2017 16:18:19 GMT -5
I totally get it. I mean, why try to examine and change the fact that even though the sexes are about equal proportionally in the population women are way over represented in rape, domestic violence, and murder by domestic partner.
I mean, it's totally the women's fault. There's absolutely nothing in society, our culture, and what we teach our boys that explains it.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jan 19, 2017 16:18:29 GMT -5
I think it is a bunch of liberal crap. I don't know how telling boys/men "It's ok to cry" will stop violence. I don't want anyone telling me how to act as a woman. I taught my boys to be gentlemen. They also learned how to behave in various situations. So the behavior in the football locker room is different than that in church. I think it is important to be able to fit into all kinds of situations. Of course my boys grew up in a household where Mom worked in a male-dominated profession, made more money than Dad and drinks beer. Dad works in a profession where there are more women and he drinks fruity-drinks. That is just how we roll. My ex was a typical alpha male but he loved his umbrella drinks! I remember one waitress teasing him about it and he said, "hey, I'm confident in who I am so I'm ok with my girlie drinks"...lol
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Post by Deleted on Jan 19, 2017 16:23:36 GMT -5
I think it is a bunch of liberal crap. I don't know how telling boys/men "It's ok to cry" will stop violence. I don't want anyone telling me how to act as a woman. I taught my boys to be gentlemen. They also learned how to behave in various situations. So the behavior in the football locker room is different than that in church. I think it is important to be able to fit into all kinds of situations. Of course my boys grew up in a household where Mom worked in a male-dominated profession, made more money than Dad and drinks beer. Dad works in a profession where there are more women and he drinks fruity-drinks. That is just how we roll. My ex was a typical alpha male but he loved his umbrella drinks! I remember one waitress teasing him about it and he said, "hey, I'm confident in who I am so I'm ok with my girlie drinks"...lol I love the occasional umbrella drink, be it a Pina Colada or Bahama Breeze. I like romantic comedies more than DW does.
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