MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Jan 20, 2017 14:11:45 GMT -5
I think "I" can concede that maybe just maybe that the group could be possibly theorectically having the urge to change mens behavior to the detriment of men being men, the part of men that are good and honest and kind and protective and what not. Coming from a womens studies group and with the name "toxic masculinity" I can "nearly" concede that point. I wouldn't say those are masculine traits though... I'd say that they are normal, non-asshole traits.
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naughtybear
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Post by naughtybear on Jan 20, 2017 14:23:48 GMT -5
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swamp
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THEY’RE EATING THE DOGS!!!!!!!
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Post by swamp on Jan 20, 2017 15:08:44 GMT -5
I think "I" can concede that maybe just maybe that the group could be possibly theorectically having the urge to change mens behavior to the detriment of men being men, the part of men that are good and honest and kind and protective and what not. Coming from a womens studies group and with the name "toxic masculinity" I can "nearly" concede that point. Hey ladies, who is against a group of us getting together and discussing issues of womens toxicity? I think it's a good idea.
Women tend to be hardest on other women. If we want to break the glass ceiling, we need help from the women who were able to do it previously.
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swamp
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THEY’RE EATING THE DOGS!!!!!!!
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Post by swamp on Jan 20, 2017 15:12:04 GMT -5
FOR the TOXIC MALE feminists on here, do you believe this statistic? Does it fit in with the view you see reported in the media? Does it fit in with the agenda you see driving the view on college campuses today? "According to a March 2013 report from the U.S. Department of Justice's Bureau of Justice Statistics, from 1995 to 2010, the estimated annual rate of female rape or sexual assault declined 58%, from 5.0 victimizations per 1,000 females age 12 or older to 2.1 per 1,000."
Why cant we address the issue in the Toxic Male discussion. Men are taught to be tough, stoic, in charge, and not ask for help. You can't do those things when you are a victim of relationship violence. If men were more comfortable reaching out, maybe they would have more assistance in leaving a violent relationship.
Toxic doesn't necessarily mean toxic to everyone else. Many stereotypically male behaviors are toxic to their own well being. That's why men generally have shorter life spans than women, and are more likely to die violent deaths.
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Jan 20, 2017 15:13:49 GMT -5
I agree. Women can definitely be toxic to each other. Just read any parenting/weight loss/beauty blog or website and it's just nonstop.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2017 15:16:44 GMT -5
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Jan 20, 2017 15:36:01 GMT -5
I skimmed the article. A lot of it I can relate to as DS is having the same problems in school. The therapist told us that school curricula is "made more for girls," as it requires more sitting still and quiet time. Is sitting still and being quiet an inherently female trait? Is there something about the Y chromosome that causes its owners to have nearly uncontrollable outbursts of energy? I don't want to drug him, but if his behavior continues, how will he thrive in a normal school environment? What is the answer here and for thousands of little boys with the same problem?
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NastyWoman
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Post by NastyWoman on Jan 20, 2017 15:42:47 GMT -5
think what you want. I just know that I have never ever said that women and men were physically the same. Mentally/emotionally, I think we are a lot more alike than people want to believe. I can't speak to what other people on here have said or what they believe. I believe that the POTENTIAL is there for men or women to be what they want to be - doesn't mean we bend over backwards to make unqualified people qualified. That has always been my stance. My statement was a general statement about what has been said to me on this board. I never said you are the one that said it.
If we were equal tehn we wouldn't have different standards to meet. We aren't equal in that way. I know it and am fine with it.
We have gotten off topic....lol
Before I can concede to that could we please define these different standards that males and females are supposed to meet?
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Jan 20, 2017 16:14:52 GMT -5
My statement was a general statement about what has been said to me on this board. I never said you are the one that said it.
If we were equal tehn we wouldn't have different standards to meet. We aren't equal in that way. I know it and am fine with it.
We have gotten off topic....lol
Before I can concede to that could we please define these different standards that males and females are supposed to meet? yeah, I have yet to hear specific examples of what makes men "masculine".
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jan 20, 2017 16:25:07 GMT -5
My statement was a general statement about what has been said to me on this board. I never said you are the one that said it.
If we were equal tehn we wouldn't have different standards to meet. We aren't equal in that way. I know it and am fine with it.
We have gotten off topic....lol
Before I can concede to that could we please define these different standards that males and females are supposed to meet? that comment goes back to the old arguments on women in combat. they had lower physical standards to meet and I took excpetion to that. If we want to be equal then we need to meet the same standards.
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tallguy
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Post by tallguy on Jan 20, 2017 16:57:44 GMT -5
Can we just shoot tequila, margaritas give me heartburn. My ex wasn't a bad guy, just after 25 yrs we grew apart. Ok...we can get together and dis mine!lol Don't think you'd be able to, after being shot and all. Well, maybe if they managed to just wing you a little bit....
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NastyWoman
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Post by NastyWoman on Jan 20, 2017 16:58:18 GMT -5
I thought we were talking behavioral standards here?
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imawino
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Post by imawino on Jan 20, 2017 17:13:59 GMT -5
I guess I never figured out why women expect guys to be exactly like them. I remember my husband telling me all sort's of really boring stories about his golf trip. (this is a golf tournament that hosts 500+ fireman). I was finally bored to tears and asked, "Are these the stories you tell me in place of the strip club stories?"
After he got done turning red he admitted that they were. Yeah, I pretty much expect a large group of guys to end up in the strip club at some point or another. Yes, I know he tells fart jokes, crude jokes, stupid physical contests (I bet I can do more pushups than you), complain about his wife, etc when he's with other guys. I just can't figure out why some women get bent out of shape about that. Men are physically different. Those differences affect (in general) their emotions and behavior just as women's physical make up effects their emotions and behavior, evolution affects us all and our differences. Why is it a big deal? I want to go back to this for a moment. First, before I get accused of being a woman who gets "bent out of shape" let's just get out of the way that I do not care if my guy goes to a strip club. If he started spending 3 nights a week and all his money there, sure; but otherwise, meh. He would not feel the need to try to hide from me that he went to one.
But I do think it's sad that 500+ guys get together for a weekend and have not one interesting story to tell that doesn't involve a strip club. Perhaps the question is why are we raising men to be so uninteresting, then? Shouldn't we expect more from them?
Once he got done with the boring non strip club stories, did he tell you the strip club stories? And did you find them less boring?
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Shooby
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Post by Shooby on Jan 22, 2017 21:30:14 GMT -5
Boys arent allowed to be boys anymore.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Jan 22, 2017 21:36:23 GMT -5
I skimmed the article. A lot of it I can relate to as DS is having the same problems in school. The therapist told us that school curricula is "made more for girls," as it requires more sitting still and quiet time. Is sitting still and being quiet an inherently female trait? Is there something about the Y chromosome that causes its owners to have nearly uncontrollable outbursts of energy? I don't want to drug him, but if his behavior continues, how will he thrive in a normal school environment? What is the answer here and for thousands of little boys with the same problem? It sucks for them until they mature enough to conform.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Jan 22, 2017 21:37:18 GMT -5
DD wasn't quiet or sitting still in school and neither was I.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jan 22, 2017 21:44:53 GMT -5
I don't know girl, I would probably have great things to say about yours too after shooting tequila, I get way to emo. Well cripes,why would you want to shoot me? :-(
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Jan 23, 2017 9:23:12 GMT -5
Boys arent allowed to be boys anymore. and I still don't know WTF that means...
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Jan 23, 2017 9:34:44 GMT -5
I was reading "Little House...." books with my kids and there is a part about Laura's experience in school.
She really wanted to play some games with boys during recess, but she was "getting too old" do to it and it wasn't appropriate. She was about 12 at the time.
So may be it's not the genes, but a very long "training".
Also, I wasn't a very physically active child, but I was a very yappy child. My parents were called to school quite a bit. They were told that I need to learn how to concentrate and pay attention. If it was "here and now", there is a good chance they would have been offered some meds. I wasn't sick, just crazy bored. I grew up, learned how to keep my mouth shut when it's needed.
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Jan 23, 2017 9:41:27 GMT -5
I was also a yappy child. And yes, I was also bored. I remember seeing a video of a kindergarten class in a European country. Those kids were outside exploring the local woods with their teacher. They were finding worms and bugs and seeing them do their thing while the teacher talked about them. It was so much hands-on learning. It made me really sad that our public school system is based on book learning and testing. You excel if you learn exactly the way they teach. If you don't, you're considered a problem. Just one of the 100000000 reasons I despise the public school system.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Jan 23, 2017 9:45:57 GMT -5
Is there something about the Y chromosome that causes its owners to have nearly uncontrollable outbursts of energy?
Nerd moment. Interestingly this is one of the areas where females and males DO differ biologically. There has been evidence to show that boys are more prone to ADD and ADHD than girls because the genes that control for "concentration" and "sitting still" (I am using these terms VERY loosely because there is no such thing as an actual sitting still gene) are coded on the X chromosome. Girls inherit two X chromosomes one from their father and one from their mother. We only need one functioning X chromosome per cell so each cell will randomly pick an X chromosome to shut off. We are chimeras. The odds of all our cells expressing an inherited faulty X chromosome are very rare. Same with inheriting two faulty ones. Boys are much more at risk because they only get one copy of the X chromosome. This is also why men are more prone to be colorblind than women and are at a risk for several genetic disorders that are extremely rare/non-existent in girls. My former boss told me that he is amused whenever someone tells him in conversation that men are the stronger sex. However I do not believe that's why boys have a hard time in school nor is it limited to boys. It's a kid thing. Schools are geared towards children who are able to behave like mini-adults, such as myself. I can happily sit still for hours at a time writing or reading. They aren't really geared towards kids being kids. Gwen is very high energy and has a tendency to act out in class sometimes, especially if it gets her attention (that includes negative attention). I love Kids & Co after school because she can run around like a crazy person and burn off that energy before she gets home. They also do clubs three days week and there are usually at least two that are physical. I make sure to sign her up for at least one sports club a trimester.
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Jan 23, 2017 10:19:28 GMT -5
I was also a yappy child. And yes, I was also bored. I remember seeing a video of a kindergarten class in a European country. Those kids were outside exploring the local woods with their teacher. They were finding worms and bugs and seeing them do their thing while the teacher talked about them. It was so much hands-on learning. It made me really sad that our public school system is based on book learning and testing. You excel if you learn exactly the way they teach. If you don't, you're considered a problem. Just one of the 100000000 reasons I despise the public school system. I mentioned this before....we didn't start school until we were 7 and only had 4 classes a day, so from 8-12. That was it. Same for 2nd grade - 8 yr olds, only a few classes a day. My kids are fairly good at sitting through something, even for an hour or longer, but I can not imagine them doing it daily. And I know for a fact that my 6 yr old would be in trouble daily if he was in a regular school setting.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Jan 23, 2017 11:41:14 GMT -5
I guess I never figured out why women expect guys to be exactly like them. I remember my husband telling me all sort's of really boring stories about his golf trip. (this is a golf tournament that hosts 500+ fireman). I was finally bored to tears and asked, "Are these the stories you tell me in place of the strip club stories?"
After he got done turning red he admitted that they were. Yeah, I pretty much expect a large group of guys to end up in the strip club at some point or another. Yes, I know he tells fart jokes, crude jokes, stupid physical contests (I bet I can do more pushups than you), complain about his wife, etc when he's with other guys. I just can't figure out why some women get bent out of shape about that. Men are physically different. Those differences affect (in general) their emotions and behavior just as women's physical make up effects their emotions and behavior, evolution affects us all and our differences. Why is it a big deal? I want to go back to this for a moment. First, before I get accused of being a woman who gets "bent out of shape" let's just get out of the way that I do not care if my guy goes to a strip club. If he started spending 3 nights a week and all his money there, sure; but otherwise, meh. He would not feel the need to try to hide from me that he went to one.
But I do think it's sad that 500+ guys get together for a weekend and have not one interesting story to tell that doesn't involve a strip club. Perhaps the question is why are we raising men to be so uninteresting, then? Shouldn't we expect more from them?
Once he got done with the boring non strip club stories, did he tell you the strip club stories? And did you find them less boring?
I didn't realize that men had the obligation to be interesting.
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tallguy
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Post by tallguy on Jan 23, 2017 11:46:02 GMT -5
I want to go back to this for a moment. First, before I get accused of being a woman who gets "bent out of shape" let's just get out of the way that I do not care if my guy goes to a strip club. If he started spending 3 nights a week and all his money there, sure; but otherwise, meh. He would not feel the need to try to hide from me that he went to one.
But I do think it's sad that 500+ guys get together for a weekend and have not one interesting story to tell that doesn't involve a strip club. Perhaps the question is why are we raising men to be so uninteresting, then? Shouldn't we expect more from them?
Once he got done with the boring non strip club stories, did he tell you the strip club stories? And did you find them less boring?
I didn't realize that men had the obligation to be interesting. Only if they like the idea of being around women!
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Jan 23, 2017 12:07:02 GMT -5
I didn't realize that men had the obligation to be interesting. Only if they like the idea of being around women! or anyone else interesting for that matter.
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Virgil Showlion
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[b]leones potest resistere[/b]
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Jan 23, 2017 12:07:58 GMT -5
Masculinity is about striving for supremacy (fierce competition, striving to be the best), labouring hard towards a meaningful goal, the love of women (including romantic and erotic love) and the desire to protect them, the valuing of respect over friendship, and the unwillingness to compromise or yield on fundamental issues.
Any man lacking in these characteristics is lacking in what it is for a man to be a man.
Strength, machismo, arrogance, courage, tough love, etc. may be correlated with masculinity, but only insofar as they are ancillary to the above.
Whatever "toxic masculinity" is considered to be, subtract from it the above and the problem--if it exists--will be found in the remainder.
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Jan 23, 2017 12:30:42 GMT -5
Masculinity is about striving for supremacy (fierce competition, striving to be the best), labouring hard towards a meaningful goal, the love of women (including romantic and erotic love) and the desire to protect them, the valuing of respect over friendship, and the unwillingness to compromise or yield on fundamental issues. Any man lacking in these characteristics is lacking in what it is for a man to be a man. Strength, machismo, arrogance, courage, tough love, etc. may be correlated with masculinity, but only insofar as they are ancillary to the above. Whatever "toxic masculinity" is considered to be, subtract from it the above and the problem--if it exists--will be found in the remainder. well, at least I got an answer! I may not agree with it, but at least it's there!
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imawino
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Post by imawino on Jan 23, 2017 14:45:54 GMT -5
I want to go back to this for a moment. First, before I get accused of being a woman who gets "bent out of shape" let's just get out of the way that I do not care if my guy goes to a strip club. If he started spending 3 nights a week and all his money there, sure; but otherwise, meh. He would not feel the need to try to hide from me that he went to one.
But I do think it's sad that 500+ guys get together for a weekend and have not one interesting story to tell that doesn't involve a strip club. Perhaps the question is why are we raising men to be so uninteresting, then? Shouldn't we expect more from them?
Once he got done with the boring non strip club stories, did he tell you the strip club stories? And did you find them less boring?
I didn't realize that men had the obligation to be interesting. No one said anyone was required to do anything. And if you want to stake out the position that men should make no efforts to be interesting, well rounded people, go for it.
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Shooby
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Post by Shooby on Jan 23, 2017 14:56:04 GMT -5
Boys arent allowed to be boys anymore. and I still don't know WTF that means... It means we force them to sit still for hours on end. We expect them to act like girls . We punish them for picking up a stick and playing cops and robbers. We wont allow them to have some time for natural boy roughhousing. It isn't masculinity that is toxic. It is Feminism.
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NastyWoman
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Post by NastyWoman on Jan 23, 2017 15:03:28 GMT -5
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